EP. 385: When Anxiety Runs Your ADHD Brain with Dr. Tamara Rosier

Summary

Podcast Summary: ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka

Episode: 385 – When Anxiety Runs Your ADHD Brain with Dr. Tamara Rosier
Date: May 20, 2026
Host: Tracy Otsuka
Guest: Dr. Tamara Rosier

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the intricate relationship between anxiety, emotion, and executive function in ADHD—especially in women. Dr. Tamara Rosier, author of "Your Brain’s Not Broken: Strategies for Navigating Your Emotions in Life with ADHD," joins Tracy to unpack how anxiety can both motivate and hinder those with ADHD, and to explore strategies for harnessing big emotions rather than being overwhelmed by them. With relatable metaphors, laughter, and vulnerability, the two discuss self-compassion, divergent thinking, the role of humor, and actionable techniques to reduce anxiety-driven resistance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Dr. Tamara Rosier and Her Book

• Tracy highlights Dr. Rosier’s multifaceted ADHD-driven resume: college administrator, professor, consultant, teacher, speaker, coach, and founder of the ADHD Center of West Michigan (00:40).
• Tracy explains: “You can literally start at any chapter in your book and it still completely works. So it is so ADHD friendly.” (04:00)
• Dr. Rosier responds: “Yeah, I wrote it that way on purpose because that's how I had to write it.” (04:13)

2. The Butler Analogy for the ADHD Brain

• Dr. Rosier explains the prefrontal cortex as a "calm butler" that manages tasks and organization, which is less reliable in ADHD brains (04:52).
• Instead, ADHD brains often rely on the “angry neighbor” in the limbic system, who motivates with criticism and urgency.
  • “Our butler doesn’t quite talk to us. …it sounds more like an angry neighbor just constantly shaking his shoe, screaming at us.” (05:27)
• ADHD medication is likened to a “newly trained butler,” helpful but only while active (06:30).

3. Emotion as a Tool for Remembering, Planning, and Acting

• Tracy relates how, for her, emotion is required to recall memories (07:00).
• Dr. Rosier: “It's like we're constantly method actors going, 'What's my motivation?'" (07:45).
• Women with ADHD are especially judged for visible emotional coping—they’re expected to have the “prefrontal cortex on and ready” (08:00).

4. Building Executive Function: Emotions Trump Strategy

• Dr. Rosier argues it's a “pet peeve” to start coaching with pure executive function strategies, ignoring emotion.
  • “Transitions are very bad for everyone with ADHD… because we're so bad at that, we tend to need emotions for that push.” (09:50)
  • Always address emotion first: “Emotions will always trump the strategy.” (11:00)
• Naming emotions (“name it to tame it”) decreases emotional intensity, making action more possible (12:21).

5. The Emotional “Swimming Pool” Metaphor

• Dr. Rosier: “When we have ADHD, we don’t have a lifeguard on duty. We accidentally fall in our emotional pool all the time.” (13:30)
• The process:
  1. Realize you’re in the pool (caught in emotion)
  2. Swim to the side, get out
  3. Only then can you act pragmatically (14:00–14:54)

6. Big Emotions vs. Trauma

• Dr. Rosier clarifies that even for ADHDers without trauma history, brains register minor things as threats—difficulties sorting “big deal” from “small deal” (15:54).
• Using the “big deal/small deal bucket” analogy with kids helps teach this distinction (16:00).
  • “Our brains are bad at sorting that out… we respond to everything like it is a threat.” (16:10)
• Trauma + ADHD blurs this even further, making emotional regulation and distinguishing threats extremely challenging.

7. Anxiety as Motivation: The “Angry Neighbor” and Its Biological Costs

• Many ADHDers use anxiety as motivation even though it’s “incredibly costly” (19:55).
  • “If I don’t have my anxiety, how will I know how to get out of bed in the morning?” (19:55)
• This constant reliance on anxiety takes a toll on wellbeing over time (39:47–40:44).

8. All-or-Nothing Empathy and “ADHD Logic”

• ADHD emotions and empathy are often “1 or 10”—either not felt at all or completely overwhelming (22:27, 23:29).
• Dr. Rosier notes that ADHDers’ empathy is often stronger for individuals than groups—a form of “ADHD logic” (24:41).

9. Divergent vs. Convergent Thinking

• ADHDers excel at divergent thinking (“blowing up” one idea into a thousand), but struggle to switch to convergent, sequential action (26:43–28:03).
  • Dr. Rosier: “If we were driving a car, divergent thinking is like putting your foot on the gas, convergence, like putting it on the brake.” (28:22)
• Tracy praises the concrete approach: “Are you in Convergent or are you in Divergent? …What would serve you best right now?” (30:12)

10. The Monster Spray Story: Using Divergent Imagination for Good

• Dr. Rosier recounts a success story in using “monster spray” (peppermint or lavender in water) to help a child overcome bedtime fears (46:17–54:00).
  • The key: Respect divergent thinking, involve the child in the solution, and shift from imagination into empowered action.
  • “It worked because I didn’t shut down the child's divergent thinking. I took it for real.” (52:05)

11. Humor and Imagination as Coping Mechanisms

• Both Tracy and Dr. Rosier share how humor and creating “cartoon characters or monkeys” in their minds helps regulate strong emotion and reduce anxiety (63:33–65:10).
  • “Humor is a way I disarm myself all the time. Because if I can laugh at myself, it’s going to be okay.” (45:54)
  • “If I make a joke, then it’s disarming enough that I actually have a second to bring myself back up the ladder.” (65:19)

12. Climbing the Emotional Health Ladder

• Dr. Rosier describes the “emotional health ladder” as a tool for developing self-awareness and emotional regulation.
  • “If I can catch it—'Oof, Tamara, you fell down a couple rungs'—sometimes, just by asking that question, I can move up the ladder.” (42:29–44:39)
• The importance of curiosity and not tamping down emotion, instead owning it and finding strategies to move up the ladder (44:39–45:05).

13. Addressing Adult ADHD Anxiety

• Many adults with ADHD use anxiety as fuel until their bodies revolt in their 40s or 50s, leading to burnout.
  • “You’re writing checks your body can’t cash. And so unless you want me to go on strike, you’re going to work this out.” (41:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Our butler doesn’t quite talk to us… In fact, it sounds more like an angry neighbor just constantly shaking his shoe, screaming at us.” – Dr. Rosier (05:27)
• “It's like we're constantly method actors going, 'What's my motivation?' …We are exhausted.” – Dr. Rosier (07:45)
• “The emotions will always trump the strategy.” – Dr. Rosier (11:00)
• “When we have ADHD, we don’t have a lifeguard on duty. We accidentally fall in our emotional pool all the time.” – Dr. Rosier (13:30)
• “We can get to the same place. It just takes us a lot longer to get there sometimes.” – Dr. Rosier (09:30)
• “Our brains are bad at sorting that out, and because we're in that kind of everything feels like a threat, we respond to everything like it is a threat.” – Dr. Rosier (16:10)
• “If I don’t have my anxiety, how will I know how to get out of bed in the morning?” – Dr. Rosier (19:55)
• “Either my clients wonder if they're on the spectrum or if they're bipolar … It's our all or nothing thinking.” – Dr. Rosier (25:42)
• “If we were driving a car, divergent thinking is like putting your foot on the gas, convergence, like putting it on the brake.” – Dr. Rosier (28:22)
• “Humor is a way I disarm myself all the time. Because if I can laugh at myself, it's going to be okay.” – Dr. Rosier (45:54)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:40 – 04:52: Tracy introduces Dr. Rosier and her ADHD-friendly book.
• 04:52 – 06:54: Butler analogy explained (prefrontal cortex & angry neighbor).
• 07:42 – 11:03: Emotion-driven memory, planning, and transition challenges.
• 13:30 – 14:54: The emotional swimming pool metaphor.
• 15:54 – 18:32: Big emotion, trauma, and difficulty sorting threat levels.
• 19:55 – 20:23: Anxiety as a (costly) motivation tool.
• 22:27 – 24:41: Empathy swings and “ADHD logic.”
• 26:43 – 30:12: Divergent vs. convergent thinking and how to “switch.”
• 46:17 – 54:00: The Monster Spray story and tips for parents.
• 63:33 – 65:10: Humor as an executive function hack and the “monkey” inner dialogue.
• 42:20 – 45:54: The emotional health ladder as a tool for pausing and regaining perspective.

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Practical Takeaways & Strategies

• Address emotion first: Before executive function strategies can help, validate and name emotions.
• Use metaphors: The “butler vs. angry neighbor” and “emotional swimming pool” metaphors offer self-awareness tools.
• Switch from divergent to convergent thinking: When stuck in options (“gas”), intentionally change to solution/action mode (“brake”).
• Harness humor: Laughing at oneself or making inner “cartoon” analogies can move stress from the emotional to the imaginative processing centers.
• Empower kids’ imaginations: Techniques like “monster spray” work by collaborating with a child’s divergent mind rather than shutting it down.
• Climb the ladder: Identify your current emotional rung, recognize when you’re descending, and ask how to move up one step.
• Self-compassion: Recognize that big emotions are part of the ADHD experience; judgment and shame are neither helpful nor necessary.

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Resources & Where to Find Dr. Tamara Rosier

• Book: “Your Brain’s Not Broken” – tamararosier.com
• ADHD Center of West Michigan: www.miadhd.com (“am I ADHD?”)
• Practical Advice: “Get a sense of humor. …Imagine different parts of your brain talking to each other” (63:33–65:10).

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Closing Thoughts

Dr. Rosier and Tracy Otsuka’s conversation models self-compassion, creativity, and community for high-ability ADHD women. By normalizing humor and imaginative solutions, and debunking the myth that anxiety is the only path to action, the episode provides actionable hope. With fresh metaphors and practical steps, listeners are affirmed in their brilliance and given new tools to “climb the ladder” of emotional regulation—one laugh, one monster spray, one moment of self-awareness at a time.

Transcript

[A]

Before we start, a quick note. If you've been listening to this podcast and thinking, I need more than insight, I need support, this is for you. Your ADHD brain is not broken. It just never came with a map. That is why I created you'd ADHD Brain is a okay academy. It's my patented step by step framework to help you build a life. And that finally fits how your brain works. Ready to get started? Click the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call with me now. On with the show. Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone Biles. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they are doing? I'm your host, Tracy Adsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach. And the creator of youf ADHD Brain is aok, a patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Outsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for ADHD for Smartass Women. Please subscribe to this podcast and our newsletter [e-mail]. you know, my purpose is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. In the thousands of ADHD women that I have had the privilege of meeting, I've never met a one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. Not one. And that includes our guest. I am just delighted to introduce you to Dr. Tamara Rosier. Dr. Rosier has been a college administrator, a professor, a leadership consultant, a high school teacher, a national public speaker, and an ADHD coach. Gosh, sounds so ADHD. All these professions. Through those adventures, Dr. Rozier has developed valuable insight into ADHD and how it affects one's life. As founder of the ADHD center of West Michigan, she leads a team of coaches that therapists and speech pathologists to help individuals, parents, and families develop an understanding and learn effective skills to live with ADHD effectively. Her book, you, Brain's Not Strategies for Navigating youg Emotions in Life with ADHD just came out. I've read it. It is so readable, relatable, and practical and provides serious strategies for navigating the emotional aspects of adhd. Tamara, welcome. Did I get all that right?

[B]

You did, and I so appreciate being here today, so thank you.

[A]

Absolutely. You know, you have a way of making simple concepts so understandable, But I think what I like the most is that you can literally start at any chapter in your book and it still completely works. So it is so ADHD friendly.

[B]

Yeah, I wrote it that way on purpose because that's how I had to write it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Every chapter is different.

[A]

So I'm not just saying this because you're a guest here. We are literally adding it to our Smartass book list. It's an outstanding book. I'm a gusher, so when I really believe in something, I gush. And all the other times where it's just kind of okay. Yeah, I don't say a whole lot. So I want to talk about your book. So that's why we have you here. And I love your butler analogy. I've never heard our brains explained in this manner. Can you explain it to us?

[B]

So I'm going to nerd out just for a second, but I promise I'll come right back to you. Okay? And so if you're listening, just be patient for a second. I'm going to throw out some words, but just be very patient. So if you take your hand and tap on your forehead, that's where your prefrontal cortex is. And that prefrontal cortex is this wonderful modern amenity. It tells us what to do, how to do it, when to do it. And it's like this very calm butler. Tamara, your keys are on the counter. You may want to start packing your things to leave for work right now. You know, it's just this calm, rational. By the way, I watch a lot of BBC. That's where I came up with the butler. Right. So it's just this calm presence that tells you what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. The problem is, as you know, those of us with adhd, our butler doesn't quite talk to us. In fact, it sounds more like an angry neighbor just constantly shaking his shoe, screaming at us. And by the way, that's a different part of the brain that's in the limbic center. And so we have an angry neighbor saying, tamara, if you lose those keys one more time, why I oughta. And just screaming at us. And so what medication does, it can kind of introduce, like, a newly trained butler. It's not a great butler. It's not one we've grown up with, but it's a newer butler, and it can provide some assistance. And then the butler leaves early to go home when our medication wears off. So that's kind of the metaphor that I use. Again, the prefrontal cortex has nothing to do with iq, and aren't we grateful for that? It has everything to do with our ability to live in a modern world.

[A]

When you're talking about the butler, you talked about. For those of us with ADHD who struggle with executive functions that we rely on emotion to remember, plan, and act, rather than our executive functions. And that was the first time, you know, I've heard people dance around it, but that was the first time that I actually heard that it was connected as far as the emotion is how you. You remember. And it's so interesting because it right away brought up this, you know, memory for me, that in order for me to remember things, I have to literally get into my body first and connect myself to how I fel in that particular instance to remember what it is that I wanted to remember.

[B]

And isn't that freaking exhausting? And so it takes more energy because it's like we're constantly method actors going, what's my motivation? What was my motivation? And we have to kind of go back and trace that and try to, you know, scoop it all up. We are exhausted. And by the way, I love this podcast because I love that you're talking to women, and I'm sure a couple guys listen, too. But you know what? Women in adhd, we're expected to have that prefrontal cortex on and ready. And when people see us using our emotional systems to govern us, we get judged and we get judged harshly.

[A]

I understand, and I agree. I totally agree with you. I've just come to the conclusion that's like, I don't care, whatever. Judge me.

[B]

Which is a great place to be. But I've worked with so many women

[A]

who are, yeah, yeah, no, I get it. So I understand how we rely on emotion to remember acting. I get right, is it now or not now? When am I going to feel like it? But what about planning Is that the same thing?

[B]

So, you know, I love. I hear this from my clients a lot. You know, they're like, oh, hey, I'm using this new thing. It's called a calendar. I'm like, super glad you discovered that. And then they're like, yeah, I have everything planned out. And then they get to the day and they're like, I don't feel like doing this now. Or they hate to make plans because they don't know how they're going to feel. And so our feelings are actually providing us fuel for our motivations. I know. That's why when people take ADHD lightly, it's a huge mistake. We can get to the same place. It just takes us a lot longer to get there sometimes.

[A]

We can, however, work on our executive functions. Right. We can build those skills. How do we do that, though? How does that then connect with the emotion?

[B]

I'm glad you asked this question. This is really a hot topic for me personally, so I'm just going to be very honest. My pet peeve is when we work with those with ADHD and we start with executive function, and that's just not going to work for us. Here's an example. Transitions are very bad for everyone. With adhd, we just really stink at. At transitions. And transitions are everything in life, right? Sunday to Monday, morning to night, stopping one task to pick up another. And so because we're so bad at that, we tend to need emotions for that push. And so a lot of people will say, well, let's just start with, you know, what's your strategy to do this transition? And I would be serious. Like, I used to coach like that back in the day until I realized I first have to say, what emotions do you have around this transition? Well, I'm dreading Monday. Well, let's deal with that dread first and then make a strategy, because the emotions will always trump the strategy.

[A]

And so if we're not in positive emotion, we can't get anything done. Right? So is that the goal, to get them into positive emotion first?

[B]

We can do things out of negative emotions. I passed a whole statistics class out of spite. So I, you know, the negative emotions, if they're strong enough. So it's really about the intensity of the emotion. And that's what's exhausting for us. If we're always running this intensity. Like, I need this intensity to make this transition, that's exhausting to us. And so sometimes what I take my clients through is, let's just name this cloud of emotions that are. Is surrounding you. Right now, let's just kind of just name some emotions. They're like, here's this, this, this, this. Okay, now can we. Can we see those? Accept that they're there? If those are there, what could. Can we still have a strategy? And it's that cognitive work, connecting. Oh, yeah. So I am angry that I have to clean the garage tomorrow. But you know what? I can still make this plan to do this. Did that make sense to you?

[A]

So are you saying that just by virtue of, you know, how they say, name it to tame it, by naming it, you've made it real? Okay, so then walk me through the next step. So you've named it. And so why does that then make it easier to do the job that you don't want to do?

[B]

So what I'm talking about is, you know how I said the prefrontal cortex is, you know, behind your forehead? We actually start with this whole emotional process somewhere in our limbic center. And our limbic center is in charge of fight, flight, or freeze. And so, you know, it's kind of concocting this emotion. And we're used to. Especially people who are unmedicated are used to, well, I will wait until the intensity of my emotion is so great, then I'll transition, or then I'll do this. Right? And so that is what's wearing us out. It's not having the emotion. It's the intensity of it. So the first step is I have them name it. Then I have to. Then I say, so how strongly are you feeling this? Well, Tamara, I just don't want to clean the garage because I'm so sick of my wife doing this. And you hear the whole intensity. Well, is there a way we could bring down that intensity at all? As long as people are at a high intensity emotionally, they're not going to be able to think practically. I use a metaphor of a swimming pool. So the. The swimming pool is a pool for. Or is the metaphor for deep emotions. And when we have adhd, we don't have a lifeguard on duty. We accidentally fall in our emotional pool all the time. And so we can't really do things when we're in the pool because we're just flailing around and doing whatever we're doing in the pool. So we first need to realize we're in the pool, swim to the side of the pool, get out of the pool, and then we can be pragmatic and make steps to what we want to do.

[A]

So what you're doing, it sounds like. Tell me if I'M wrong or tell me if I'm right. What you're doing by going through all these steps is you are just trying to reduce the anxiety, which decreases the resistance, so it's less difficult to start.

[B]

Actually, we're shifting it out of the limbic system. And especially if someone can visualize the pool metaphor, they're shifting it out of that system into a place right behind the prefrontal cortex where our imagination is and our reflective thinking. We're really good at this part. In fact, we like it. And so we can begin to plan once we shift into a different part of our brain. But as long as we're stuck in the limbic center, flailing around in that pool, we really can't get a lot done.

[A]

That is such a good description. I love it. Okay, so you talk about big emotions and adhd. When I've seen really big emotion, it's usually been connected to trauma.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And ADHD or just trauma. Is this something different that you're talking about when you talk about big emotion?

[B]

Trauma is a complicated factor, but let's. I work with people with no history of trauma. But remember, for those of us with adhd, even without a history of trauma, our brains are registering things all the time as threats, things that aren't even real trauma. And I'm not trying to be judgmental, but our brain gets confused between a big deal and a small deal. When I work with kids, I ask them, is this a big deal bucket thing? I have two buckets in my office. Is this a big deal bucket? Or should we put it in the small deal bucket? What bucket does this go into? And so our brains are bad at sorting that out. And because we're in that kind of everything feels like a threat. We respond to everything like it is a threat. And so that's where the big emotions. And that's why treating people with trauma and ADHD is a very complicated process because we have these big emotions. Now, to be clear, everyone has emotions. We're using these big emotions to lead us and to guide us through the world.

[A]

Okay, so I'm trying to. I'm trying to understand what you just said. So, okay, I think that what you're telling me is that obviously everybody has emotion when you have adhd. We struggle to tell the difference between should we really be blowing up about this because it's really nothing versus is this a really big deal?

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

And so when you add trauma into the mix, it gets even worse. Is that what you're saying, that we really can't tell the difference at all.

[B]

Yeah, and that's the heartache of especially like ADHD folks who are working through ptsd. It is so hard to separate the two that you really can't. But even without trauma, we're using, you know, because we don't have the butler, we're using the angry neighbor to yell at us. And that's how I know to get something done. So I know to start on my paper for law school when the angry neighbor is saying, listen, your roommate just did it, you stupid idiot, you should have been done too. And then I say, oh, angry neighbor. That's a good point. I should start on it right now.

[A]

Let's pause here. Have you spent your whole life being told your way is the wrong way? If you try to use systems designed for a neurotypical brain, of course you'll feel like you're failing. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain, which means you need different systems. That is exactly why I created the A OK Academy. It's my six step patented framework designed to help you reconnect with your intuition and build systems based on your unique strengths. Let me help you reconnect with your intuition, trust yourself again, and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Look, it's time to stop second guessing and start trusting yourself again. Find the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call. Now let's get back to it. Okay, so you're beating yourself up to get the work done, but it really doesn't serve you because it's all fear and amygdala and cortisol and all that is bad, right? It's bad for our bodies, our brains, everything.

[B]

That's the problem. Though it works enough that my clients really don't want to give those up. They're like, well, if I don't have my anxiety, how will I know how to get out of bed in the morning? And so my clients are really cautious and they really don't want to give up those easy ways of motivating themselves, even though they're incredibly costly.

[A]

Okay, I want to ask you a question. So I'm going to out myself. When I think of big emotion, I kind of. I think I probably keep things in boxes pretty easily, and that's how I've navigated through life. But there are certain things that. And I don't even know why, you know, certain things that will happen. And I they will literally just ruin my whole weekend. And it's usually something that I can. I have no control over. Like, I remember, and this might have been postpartum, but I remember when my son was first born, I. I found out that the preschool that my daughter went to, there was a family there that they had lost their mother. And so the woman that was bringing them in was kind of, you know, a nanny. And I was just besides myself. I had figure out a way to help this family, you know, to the point of, like, I was being weird, right. All of a sudden, I'm in there feeling like I've got to help. And I remember being so upset by knowing what had happened to this family. And I listened to myself talk about it today, and I'm like, what the hell? Like, why was I. So. Why was there so much emotion around that? So that's my question.

[B]

Well, so here's what I think. And by the way, right after childbirth is such a sensitive time for me, too. I remember reading in articles about a mother and a daughter who were in a car accident. Mother died. The daughter climbed on the mother to keep warm throughout the night and survived. And I was heartbroken.

[A]

Gosh.

[B]

And I'm not gonna lie. I still think and pray for that girl. I don't know who she is, but it just hurt me to the core. And so I really respect how you were feeling. So here's what happens, like, in most of our thinking. Our thinking tends to be nothing or extreme.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In the book, I talk about, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10, it's a 1 or it's a 10. And so our problem is our empathy, our ability to feel with another is either 1 or 10.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so your empathy switch is stuck on. And you had a lot of great birth hormones there. Right. Oxytocin is a powerful, powerful thing. And so the empathy is stuck on. You have big emotions. You've loved this child with all your life, and all of a sudden, you're realizing these people don't have this option, and it carried you. And so that is a great example of big emotions. We are people who feel too much. And it is really a difficult road we walk sometimes.

[A]

But we also. I think, Tamara, you tell me if you agree with me, and I think you do, because you say 1 versus 10. There are times when I'm like, why don't I. Like, I. Okay. And I'm outing myself again, which is probably not a good one.

[B]

Love it with the 9.

[A]

11.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, people were just devastated and of course I felt like, oh, my God, if that was my family member, like, I got all that. But I didn't have that visceral reaction that it seemed like most of the population did. But then something that's. That's one child can just completely flip me out. One time I found out that a parent had, you know, a couple had a foster child, and somehow the foster child and the child had the most lovely life. That's really the only parents they knew. Well, they got placed. That foster child got placed back in that home, and the boyfriend ended up killing that foster child. I was calling cnn. I was calling the reporter. You know, at that time we called, I was trying to find the reporter. I was just trying to find that family, trying to help. Of course, no one got back to. But literally a whole week I spent on that. So again, that's like the one or the ten, right?

[B]

And you hear the difference. One is I tend. Okay, so, you know, I love your vulnerability because I'm going to out myself. I tend to have less empathy for groups, more empathy for individuals, and that's kind of how ADHD people tend to run. Because if I know someone and I can see them, I can easily put myself in their shoes. That's one person. But if it's a group, I'm not sure I can understand how the group thinks. So I don't know what their problem is, but I'm just going to move on. And so I call it ADHD logic. There's a lot of little things like that that we do that really just kind of falls in the category of ADHD logic.

[A]

So. Interesting. You know, all along, I've been in the back of my head thinking, well, maybe I'm a little bit on the spectrum. You know, my emotions all.

[B]

We all think this, by the way.

[A]

Okay. I love it. Thank you. Thank you.

[B]

Remember, I mean, we do. Either my clients wonder if they're on the spectrum or if they're bipolar. You know, I get a lot of clients saying, you know, do I have early dementia? Like, we wonder. And remember, we have these brilliant minds, and we're gifted, divergent thinkers, but that power of imagination screws with us because we could easily go, well, you know, I do have these symptoms, and we just pop down those rabbit holes, and then. And then we're like, well, maybe I do. And I'm not saying that there's, you know, there are comorbidities, but many times my clients are asking. I'm like, no, this really falls squarely in adhd. It's our all or nothing thinking.

[A]

So interesting. Okay, so you brought up divergent thinking. We have these divergent brains. We see all the options all at the same time and then we don't know which one we should act on. You spend a lot of time in your book going into the pitfalls of divergence, and I think I'm guilty of all of them. By the way, it's the first time that I've seen such an in depth discussion on convergent actions versus divergent actions. I really love how you simplified this concept around basically getting into action.

[B]

Right, Yeah.

[A]

I want to know what made you decide to write about this so well,

[B]

as a divergent thinker myself, I kept noticing, I kept falling into certain habits and so let me first just kind of back up and I'll just quickly define divergent and convergent. Divergent is the ability to think in one. To take one idea and blow it up into 5 million possibilities. And we are so good at that. But the opposite is convergent thinking. And convergent thinking is sequential and linear. So is that clear enough?

[A]

It's totally clear. I just loved. I've never heard anybody. You know, as you're talking in your book, it's kind of like, no, stop. You need to be, you need to think convergently now. I mean, it's just so clear, like, duh. Even if it's for 10 minutes. It made so much sense. But yes, it does convergent.

[B]

If we were driving a car, divergent thinking is like putting your foot on the gas, convergence, like putting it on the brake. And those of us with adhd, either we love the gas pedal or we try to do both at once. And you know, I know that's cool in hot rod scenes, but that's not really how you drive a car. So you have to choose one or the other, the gas pedal or the brake. And so I wanted to write about this because I really hadn't heard anyone else talking about, you know, let's train our thinking patterns. Let's, let's realize, oh, I'm still in divergent. I have to move to convergent now. And so, yeah, I just hadn't heard anyone talk about it. And it just is a huge problem for me and my client.

[A]

It's so concrete that there's just something about the way you describe it that my brain can say, okay, I'm divergent. Right now I need to move over to Convergent. You know, it's just, it's a simple switch actually for me, I don't know if it'll Be for everybody. But it's. I love the gas and the brake analogy. It's great. I love it.

[B]

I love that it feels simple for you, because that's been my experience with many clients, you know, and I'll still have to prompt them and say, hey, remember, you're still in Divergent. Maybe you need to switch. I get texts from my clients, and they're, like, doing rabbit holes. And I say, well, what would it look like for you to be in Convergent right now? And one of my clients just sent a meme back like, touche. And so we just have to be reminded to go into the Convergent.

[A]

And I think that's at least how my ADHD brain works, that if you can make the line really short and concrete, right? I can see it, I can feel it, I can know it, and so it makes sense. Are you in Convergent or are you in Divergent? And what would be best. What would serve you best right now to be in. So I know that is one that I will absolutely use. Okay, so we have to talk about Monster Spray. So, I don't know, sometime this year, I think at the beginning of the year, I was talking to Ned Hallowell about the fact that when I went to a sleepover, I think it was like, in third grade or fourth grade, my friends were all talking. This is so ridiculous. They were all talking about someone named Meriwether.

[B]

You remember this?

[A]

So apparently. And I don't even know if I have the story right, but this is how it is in my brain. If you look in the mirror at night and it's dark and there's no lights, and you say, merryweather, she's going to show up, and I think she's going to cut your head off and then hold it in the mirror or something like that. So ever since that stupid incident, I literally cannot close my eyes to wash my face in the evening. And I was telling him this story, and he just, you know, off the cuff, it's like, oh, that's your default mode network. You know, where your imagination lives and all that. And I'm like, really? That's part of adhd. And so I've been thinking about it, but what I realized when I was reading the chapter on Monster Spray is that, yes, I hate to go to bed at night because I feel like it's a waste of life I have. I'm one of those people that has too much energy, right? I just want to cram and eek every little, little tidbit out of the day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But reading your book, I also realized that I hate to go to bed at night because it is the one time that I really have to be alone with my thoughts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And what's even worse is I hate when I have to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom because then it's really bad. I literally have to make a concerted effort to entertain my imagination so I don't think about the fact that, oh, my God, I might get murdered or, you know, all these things. My kids may get murdered, my husband, all of this stuff, or he may have a heart attack. So I know that I have an overactive imagination. I didn't know that until, you know, Ned made the comment about, oh, it's your default mode network. And it sounds so silly, but I think it's the first time that I've actually connected this to my anxiety. And it was your monster spray chapter that really did it. You know, I have had anxiety about losing my mom since I was a little kid. I was just telling the story that I was in second grade, and I basically, I just got all this anxiety about my mom. And so I went to the school nurse and I told her that I'm really, really sick, I have to go home because I needed to see my mom.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I remember she picked me up, we went out to lunch. She knew I wasn't sick, but I was just so worried about that. And since then, you know, it's about my husband. Something's going to happen to him. And then once I had kids, it's about my kids. But I never connected that to my ADHD brain. I just. I kind of thought everyone thought this way.

[B]

I did, too. So I. And I know exactly the kind of slumber party scare tactics because they're alive and well in my brain. And I was laughing because I'm like, oh, yeah, I've been to that party where you're like, everyone else is asleep. You're like, great, I'm not sleeping for the rest of my life now. And I don't watch scary movies for that reason. Right. At all.

[A]

I can't do. I can't even watch an Oscar. Any movie that's won an Oscar, I basically can't watch.

[B]

You know what? We need to hang out, because same here, I have the same criteria. So sad. And it's not because I lack the emotional depth to watch it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's because it will wound me. Yes. Because Schindler's List is one of the fantastic movies I've never watched. It. I taught Holocaust literature when I was a high school teacher, and I gave extra credit to people for watching it. But I knew my limits, that if I put those visual things in my head, it would stay there forever and be haunting. And I already, my heart aches over the Holocaust already. And so it's not that I'm trying to insulate myself. I do need to protect myself from a lot of those things. So, yeah, I write about in the book that your divergent thinking combines with anxiety and creates all kind of kinds of melodrama.

[A]

So can I ask you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We hear statistics. 60% of people with ADHD or 40 to 60% struggle with anxiety. And I'm like, I don't think I've ever met anyone with ADHD who didn't have some level of anxiety. Isn't that just what divergent thinking produces?

[B]

So, yes and no. So it's how much people want to use it. So I would say all people with ADHD use, like it's a drug. Right. Anxiety, except for one group. And they have low tolerance for any anxiety in their lives. And they'll almost look lethargic in how I can even see this in some students because their eyelids will drop a little bit. It's almost like there's a breaker switch. Anytime you introduce any anxiety, which the parent usually is trying to do, in that case going, hurry up, turn into your assignment. And the child rejects it because I. And what they're really saying is, I can't turn on my brain this way because this is too much for me. And so, yes, for the majority of us, we go swimming in that anxiety pool. Right. We're doing the backstroke. And, you know, I'm just going to be honest. For the first 30 years of my life, I thought that's just how I would get through life, by scaring myself out of bed between 30 and 40. I just did it. Like, yeah, this is what I need to do. 40 and 50. My body's like, hey, guess what? You're writing checks your body can't cash. Yeah. And so unless you want me to go on strike, you're going to work this out. And that's the cost of anxiety. Right. So I usually don't see them as adults. I usually see them as late adolescents who just kind of shut down and dislocate themselves. Usually they're basement dwellers. Somehow they take themselves out of reality and any exposure to anxiety.

[A]

And are these normally clients, people that you think also have pretty complex trauma?

[B]

No. No, no.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And so that's why I can say the majority us, the vast majority of us, we know anxiety because we use it like our fuel. But then there's some. And it has to do with. I think this is not research, just anecdotal. I think it might have to do something with how the personality is formed, which is a complicated conversation. And their adhd.

[A]

What does that mean? And I know you just said it's complicated. Can we simplify it? Because this is fascinating.

[B]

So a lot of times in my work with clients I work with, hey, what's your personality and what is adhd? And where's the overlapping part where the ADHD and your personality kind of gang up against you? And so we kind of. We do that work. And so I tend to see some of my clients with a certain personality style that tend. They don't like. They don't like the anxious feelings. And so they come up with an easy solution. Hey, let's not. And so they will shut down and try to mitigate any anxious feeling.

[A]

I wish I could do that a little bit.

[B]

No, you would be so frustrated with yourself, really. Because these people don't get enough done. Oh, of course.

[A]

Because we need to be in action in our creative. To be happy. Yeah, makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. So they're happy in their kind of homeostasis point. You have developed your anxiety for a reason. And in. The reason is, again, I'm not promoting, hey, everyone, use anxiety. I'm just saying we developed it as a coping mechanism.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You're highly intelligent, you have a lot of energy, and you're like, huh, now what's my gasoline? Oh, I know. Let's pour some anxiety in. And that's how you get stuff done. Again, not promoting that lifestyle. That's exhausting.

[A]

So do you think that, I mean, neurotypicals must use anxiety too, or. No, they don't. They don't need to.

[B]

You know, I talked with a neurotypical mother, and she's such a good woman. She's so smart and intelligent. She can't quite understand why her daughter just is anxious about something instead of just doing it. And that's because that. Back to that prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex. The butler says, hey, how about we just do this? And the neurotypical, without even being aware of that conversation, goes, you know, that's probably a good idea, Butler. Thank you. Meanwhile, we don't have that. And so we look at the screaming neighbor and the screaming neighbors making us feel anxious. And so we're like, well, I guess I'll listen To that neighbor.

[A]

Fascinating. Okay, I want to know about climbing the ladder. What is that? Can you explain that to us since, you know, we're on emotion?

[B]

Yeah, you know. All right. Truth be told, as soon as I turned in the manuscript, I thought of seven different ways to rewrite the book. Right. As a true ADHD person, I'm like, ah, there's part of me that wishes I would have moved that chapter earlier in the book. And so what we're talking about here is the emotional health ladder. And what happens is adhd, folks. We tend not to be very self aware of some of our behaviors. We think we're self aware, but, you know, self awareness occurs largely in the prefrontal cortex, a little bit in the dmn, but the immediate awareness occurs in places that we don't have great access to. And so if we can kind of teach ourselves what behaviors to use, then we can become emotionally healthier and more stable in our responses. So there's levels to emotional health, and at the lowest level, we are just thrashing about in that emotional pool. And we don't care who comes into the pool with us, because they probably deserved it anyway.

[A]

So can I ask, all these different rungs of the ladder, are we all in them, like, throughout the day?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Obviously we're not going to be in all of them, but can it change throughout the day?

[B]

Yes. So let's say I might start up. I might start out my day, you know what, Had a pretty good night's sleep. I'm feeling okay. I actually might start up towards the top of my ladder, which is fantastic. But you know what? On the way to work, I spilled my tea down the front of me, and that's because a deer ran out in front of me. And now I'm going to be late, and there's traffic. The traffic flex are out. I get to work, and guess what? I'm climbing down my ladder of emotional health. Just kind of ticked. Not anyone in particular. The deer, maybe, but I'm just kind of ticked. And so I'm stomping up the stairs to my office in a little bit of a pissy mood. And that's what happens to those of us with adhd. And so at that moment, I've trained myself and I talk with my clients about, say, where am I on the ladder right now? And then I often say to myself, oof, Tamara, you fell down a couple wrongs. How can we get back up the ladder? And so if I can catch it now, I'm just gonna be really honest. There's Sometimes I'm in one of those moods, and like, darn it, it just feels good. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. Yeah. And I'm just sitting, sitting, waiting for something. So it's not even reality. Right. Sometimes that just feels really good. But that's not who I want to be as a human. And in fact, I want to be kind and I want to be loving to people. And I can't really do that if I'm on the I hate you run. Right. So what I'm trying to do is I take a deep breath and I think, which rung am I on? Well, how could I just move up one rung in the ladder? And sometimes, just by asking that question, I can move up the ladder.

[A]

So this really is a way for you to pause and to become, I guess, aware, like to be curious, right. So that you can kind of stop the. Well, what we were talking about before, you know, the emotion bubbling up, you're kind of tamping it back down.

[B]

Well, not tamping it down.

[A]

That's right. We're not supposed to do that with.

[B]

Well, and I'm not trying to be nitpicky. It's just.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Just to kind of own it. Like, wow, I'm sitting in the dentist waiting room hating people. What is that about, Tamara? And that's the curiosity you mentioned. And then, you know, what would it look like if I. And sometimes, okay, true story. I was just at the dentist, and this may or may not have just happened. And I just thought, tamron, how about you straighten up your back, take a deep breath in and let it out, and just smile at someone? And I'm like, oh, oh, look at. Look at her. She's climbing the ladder. She's doing it. By the way, I always had these cartoons going on in my head, Right? Well.

[A]

And you're making yourself laugh, right? So you're just kind of putting that. I don't know, just. What am I trying to say? Just making it stop. Right.

[B]

I do. In fact, humor is a way I disarm myself all the time. Because if I can laugh at myself, it's going to be okay.

[A]

Yeah, totally. Okay. Before I let you go, I forgot I just kind of went off on, you know, my ADHD tangent. I. I want you to tell the story about the monster spray.

[B]

Oh, right. It's so cute. Back to the monsters. Yeah.

[A]

And I know parents will listen to this and they will be able to use it. I wish I knew it when I had small children.

[B]

So this happened I used to go to a few pediatric offices and meet with parents and sometimes the parents would bring their children in. And so I was. And I don't know anything about them, I don't see their charts, so I have to take information very quickly. And so in walks this beautiful little golden haired girl with impossibly big brown eyes. And she kind of moves in and she eyes me very suspiciously, like, I don't know who you are, lady. I'm like, that's okay, I don't know who you are either. And the mom sits down because the mom doesn't have adhd and the mom's kind of normal. And the girl's just sizing me up. And the mom says, hey, we have a big problem. And she starts to explain that this otherwise very smart little girl is all of a sudden wetting her pants, refusing to go to bed, a lot of the basics. And so I did my due diligence, asking about trauma, any suspicions of anything. And then I realized that the girl who was viewing me so suspiciously, she's afraid. And so I turned and I said, so can you tell me what you're afraid of? And she looked and she said, monsters. I'm like, oh yeah, I get it. And I said to her, I have had a monster problem too. And I told her a couple of my monster problems and they're very similar to your. Oh, Merryweather. Yes. Except, you know, she was a little kid, so I didn't want to scar her with that kind of stuff. So I just said, you know, when I was little, I was pretty sure something was under my bed. And so I would just run and jump into bed because I did not want to know what's under there. And she just looked at me and nodded like, yeah, I'm like. And I said, girl, I get you, we can fix this. And I said, are you willing to fix this? And by the way, a note to the parents. If the child says, no, don't try to fix it because she's not willing to fix it. And she did her big eyed nod and I said, all right, so I'm going to give your mom a recipe for monster spray. I'll tell you how to use in just a second, but I have to talk to the grown up. Fortunately, the mom was so sharp and so with me, because you know how adults talk when kids are present and we know kids are listening. So I called her by her name, Mom. I'm like, mom, I need you to understand that there's a monster problem. And even though you can't see it. I just need you to know that they're there. And so could you make up a special spray? Fortunately, this mom already had essential oils on hand. And so I said, I know how to make a monster spray that will keep them away. And so, you know, I gave her the right concoction of peppermint oil and water. And the mom said, oh, right, that's, like, what we use to keep the spiders away in the basement. And the girl's like, oh, yeah, it is. I'm like, well, it's really great at keeping spiders away, but it's even better at keeping monsters away. And so then I turned to the girl and started to give her instructions, like, here's what you do. You reach your arm through the door, spray it before you get into the door. Then there will be monsters in there. It's fine. And you can take it right into the shower with you. And so you can put your hand out of the shower, spray it. There's no monsters. And this mother, I just, I. I love her so much. She was so with it that she just kept pace with what I was doing. And so, you know, the young. The young girl was like, okay. I said, do you think you can do this? Yes. I said, okay, here's the problem. Monsters tend to run in families, and you have little siblings, and they're probably afraid of monsters, but they don't know how to talk about it. Can you teach them about this? And she smiled the biggest smile, like, I can. I can teach them. I'm like, so here, you have to teach them this. And then right before we were going to go, she said. She said, no, what if this doesn't work? I said, oh, that's okay. We have another recipe. So for me, it was like, there's dark monsters, and there's kind of the hairy ones that hide behind things. I said, I don't know what yours are like, but that's what mine are like. And so she's like, yeah. I said, that's okay. It's a different spray. I'll give your mom a recipe a second, by the way. That's lavender and water. And so I got a phone call the next day in my voicemail that said, this worked perfectly. She's taking a shower by herself. She went to bed confidently. And the mom said, and I don't really expect that we're going to have any potty accidents anymore because she's not afraid to go into the bathroom.

[A]

That is amazing.

[B]

Well, it worked because I. I didn't shut down the child's divergent thinking. I took it for real. And that's what we do with adults, too, right? It's a real fear for them. It's a real fear that you're going to lose your husband. And so if I just said, stop doing that, you wouldn't. You're like, okay, cool, I'll just shut that down. Well, that's not how any of this works.

[A]

Gets bigger, right?

[B]

It just gets bigger and scarier. But if I said, oh, that's. That's horrible, but it does mean that you really love him. Are you expressing how much you love him? And then all of a sudden, now you can do something with this?

[A]

Okay, now you're just making me feel guilty.

[B]

Okay, I'm sorry. Sorry, sorry. Didn't mean to meddle here. But that's like the monster spray for grownups.

[A]

Yeah, that's so interesting.

[B]

So did this work?

[A]

Stop it. Did this work? Because you got her to name it, you got her to talk about it, and then you got her into action so she felt like she was part of the solution. Why did this work? Is that why? Yeah.

[B]

So when our divergent thinking takes over and creates these vivid monsters, we're stuck in the divergent thinking. And so sometimes it takes power over us. And so what I especially want to do with children, and children are easier to do it with because they'll engage us, is to give them power and they to do something about it. So we know that we can't control everything in life, but for this child, she could control spraying before she got into the room.

[A]

Yeah. And so do you think that's the default mode network versus the task positive network. So you're, you know, you're. You're in that imagination, the default mode network. And the way you pop out is you get into action. Right. Some kind of action. Is that what's going on here?

[B]

Yeah. So it. It is the dmn. And when we, especially with children, use our imaginations to solve problems, our kids are brilliant. And so notice that her eyes lit up when I said, can you help your brothers with this? She's like, yes, I'm a big sister. I can certainly help them with their monster problem. Right now she has a job to do. And so this isn't just about her being in a vulnerable state now. She can take leadership over it. I work with parents all the time, and I try to get parents to walk beside their children and stop doing things to them. But walk beside, be curious. But then let the child problem solve and put the child Back in charge of it.

[A]

Mm. Well, I guess that I'm gonna have to make some Merryweather spray,

[B]

so I need to tell you. My husband's traveling right now, and we have. I think we have so many doors. And I catch myself going by, and I'm like, tamara, you know, you've locked that. Like, please, you're fine. And, you know, it's just because my vivid imagination goes well, you know, which is why I stick to BBC shows. They're pretty harmless. Well, no, there are some darker BBC shows. I stay away from those, though. But I keep checking the doors because of my vivid imagination. What if this were to happen and I'm not normally the person who's afraid of a lot, but my brain's picking up a difference. Like, oh, this is different. We're probably afraid of this difference, you

[A]

know, that is so interesting, because, yeah, I consider myself a fearless person. You know, starting a business, jumping in here, no problem. But then this stupid stuff.

[B]

It's always the stupid stuff. Always the stupid stuff.

[A]

It's not even real. Like, it's not going to happen. Like, practically, I can say that. But still, it's still there.

[B]

Can I tell you, my family teases me about this. I have a plan. One of the ways I cope with my disastrous imagination is to create a plan. So if something happened, and if you know me, you know, I love my husband and children so much, and I love our family. We have something special, so precious. And all of my children are, you know, 19 to 20 or to. Well, almost 30. She's getting old, but so. So they're grown, right? But I know if something horrible were to happen and wiped out all of them, I would move to an elephant farm. And one time, you know, we're ADHD families, so we talk about these things. I said, oh, yeah, I have a. I know what I would do. I would move to an elephant refuge. And they're like, what? I'm like, well, I would be so sad. Elephants are incredibly noble creatures, and they would feel my sadness, but they'd still be okay with me. And so I have it all worked out to go to my elephant place. Not really, guys. Not literally, but in my head, it's my monster spray. This is what I would do. And my kids even like, oh, that's okay, Mom. We have our own version of this. If you died before we were 18, we were going to get your name. How you sign your name tattooed on our art.

[A]

Oh, geez. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, yeah, I get we're kind of morbid, but this is how our little ADHD brains are trying to deal with what would happen if. Oh, and by the way, I'm too old for that now, so I'd have to die within a certain age range to get the tattoo. Yes. So, yeah, those rules with my kids.

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay, so they're not getting tattoos with your name on it. I know.

[B]

They're like, sorry, mom, it had to be a couple of years ago. You made it too long. I'm like, that's great to know, honey.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

But, you know, that's exactly. I mean, that's humor again in our family just kind of popping up. We kind of joke about this stuff, even though we're really not joking exactly.

[A]

No, I. You know, I had a bulldog. It was my son's bulldog. He got. When he was. He got him when he was 7. His name was Buster. And he. A couple years ago, he came at me and attacked me and really ripped up my foot. I was in wound care for, like, three months. And so we had to put him down. And it was literally. So I think it'll be two years. This. Right around now. It was right before Thanksgiving, and so we had this poor dog around. Cause I'm looking at him and I'm going, there's no way. My son has his friends here. And he got old. He got, like, dementia or something. Right? Doggy dementia. And there was no way I was gonna have this dog around other people because I just. He was no longer a queen.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

So we knew we were gonna have to put him down. So we had him for about almost a week. And literally every day, like, I'd look at him, and I'd be like, buster. And I'd put my hand out. You are dead to me. And I'd. You know. And my kids were like, mom, funny. And I'm like, well, that's how I'm doing it.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. And that's how. Okay. So talking about the dmn, whenever we go to humor as a coping mechanism, we're getting it out of the limbic system, and we're saying, hey, I can hold it this way. I can hold this sadness in this way.

[A]

Wow. Okay. So humor gets us in that area that is below the limbic system, or does it get us more into the prefrontal cortex? What part of the brain is that?

[B]

The DMN is kind of located right behind the prefrontal cortex, so it's almost but not close. Okay. Okay.

[A]

So when we use humor, where does it get that thought in our Brain. Where does it move it to?

[B]

It moves it from the limbic center, from that fight or flight. Right, right. To this imaginative place where we can hold it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Have you ever heard comedians, they say, like, really tragic things sometimes?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you're like, holy cow. That raw.

[A]

But we're laughing.

[B]

But we're laughing, and what's wrong with me? And it's because they're taking it out of the limbic. They're taking the rawness out of it, and they're kind of saying, let me find something funny about this.

[A]

We were just in LA and we went to. I don't know what the comedy place is down there. I know there's many, but it was the main one, and it was the guy from Jerry Maguire, the blonde guy, Jay Moore.

[B]

He was like.

[A]

I think he was the bad agent.

[B]

Yes. Yep.

[A]

And I had no idea what had happened in his life since then. And so he gets up there and he's funny as all hell. I mean, the man is brilliant. And, you know, it just starts getting more and more morbid. And then he finally tells us, yeah, well, I just got out of rehab, you know, and we're all just depressed. But what he's saying is so frigging funny. Yeah. That's just my example of actually seeing it in action. I mean, he took his life and he's telling funny stories about it because that's probably how he copes. Right.

[B]

And that's actually a great coping mechanism. And it's because you're taking. It's actually probably part of his healing process.

[A]

Yeah. And when we're laughing, aren't we increasing our dopamine?

[B]

It is. And so for those of us with adhd, by the way, many, many comedians have adhd. I'll listen to comedians and go, yeah, there he is. I see my ADHD friend there. But whenever we're doing that, our pleasure center is activated. And so it's actually we're releasing not only dopamine, but other good feeling chemicals. And so it is a hack to make ourselves laugh. I was surprised that people found my book funny. I wasn't trying to be funny, but then I realized this is just what goes on in my head all the time. I guess other people think that's funny. I just call it life, right?

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

If I were trying to be funny, I promise you, I wouldn't be funny. It would just be. It would fall flat. Right. But if I tell you the conversations that go on in my head, that's amusing to other people.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So Tamara, do you have a number one ADHD workaround for us?

[B]

You know what? I think we were just talking about it. It's seriously, get a sense of humor. And, you know, is it one of

[A]

your top, like, via character strengths is humor?

[B]

I don't think it is. I. Believe it or not, I'm a super intense person. Like, people always give me feedback like, oh, you're so intense, and type A. I'm like, yeah, if you knew the drunken goat rodeo in my head, you wouldn't be thinking that.

[A]

You don't seem intense to me. You remind me a lot of myself, to be honest.

[B]

I still love you, which is the most egocentric thing. I've said this the whole time, but you are a sister friend. Because I'm like, oh, I get. She's a driver, and we're both drivers. Right. So my biggest hack is really to imagine different parts of your brain talking to each other and whatever you have to do to get this done. So sometimes for me, it's monkeys. I have a whole set of monkeys, and they have a conversation. Sometimes they're cartoon monkeys, sometimes they're stuffed monkeys. I don't know why, but other people, they have characters in their head that talk. But when I can kind of hear the different characters playing out in my head, I can kind of relax and go, yeah, okay. All right, monkey. How about you go sit on the couch for a second while we figure this out? And I can have more regulation when I can do that, but it takes a sense of humor to be able to do that.

[A]

So what you're trying to do is basically laugh at yourself so it's less serious. Right, right. And reduce that. Calm your nervous system, basically.

[B]

I do. Yeah. And if I just tell myself, okay, take a deep breath, I'll. I'll be like, no, I don't want to. But if you can say, if I can make a joke, then it's disarming enough that I actually have a second to bring myself back to the ladder. Up, up the ladder. And so my biggest hack really is humor. I think I have to tell you, most of the ADHD people I've met in my life are all funny somehow. I mean, it might be that dry wit. It might be.

[A]

I totally agree. Yeah.

[B]

Which is why I love my job, because I get to work with funny people.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so where can people find you if they want to know more about you and what you do and your book and all of that?

[B]

Yeah, well, there's two websites. There's my books [e-mail] and then I'm at the ADHD center of West Michigan and that is www.miadhd.com.

[A]

literally, am I ADHD?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that's clever.

[B]

Thanks. It's also, if you live in Michigan, things start with mi. Like that's our abbreviation too.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Okay. So do you have any last minute thought that you want to leave us with before we say goodbye?

[B]

You know what? I love what you do and thanks for making this fun.

[A]

Oh, well, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. I appreciate it immensely. This was such a fascinating discussion. I truly learned so much about myself just from reading your book.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you for that. So anyway, that's what we have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Dr. Rozier, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. And you know what? Your reviews really help in that regard. As always, you're listening to ADHD for smartass women. Come join me over at tracyoutsuka.com thanks for being here and I'll see you next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Outsuka. Join us at adhd for smart women.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. And my patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with with your brilliant brain. Let's pause here. Have you spent your whole life being told your way is the wrong way? If you try to use systems designed for a neurotypical brain, of course you'll feel like you're failing. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain, which means you need different systems. That is exactly why I created the AOK Academy. It's my six step patented framework designed to help you reconnect with your intuition and build systems based on your unique strengths. Let me help you reconnect with your intuition, trust yourself again, and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Look, it's time to stop second guessing and start trusting yourself again. Find the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call. Now let's get back to it.