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ADHD reWired
538 | Queer and Neurodivergent: A Panel Discussion
01:15:26
Episode 538 of the ADHD reWired podcast, hosted by Eric Tivers, addresses the complexities and intersections of neurodivergence (ADHD and autism) and LGBTQ identities. The episode features a panel discussion from a NeuroDivergent Pride event,...
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- [00:00]
A
Adhd Rewired Episode 538 Since 2014, this has been the podcast for ADHD adults who have really good intentions and a slightly wandering attention. I'm Eric Tivers. I'm a licensed clinical Social Worker and an ADHD Certified Clinical Services Provider by training and a coach by design. I'm your host and I have adhd. ADHD Rewired is more than just a podcast. You can learn about our coaching and accountability groups, our virtual coworking community, and more all@adhd Rewired.com we are wired for connection and you are not alone. Learn more about our offerings, including our monthly live Q&As. Get additional resources for every episode, including links to any resources we mention on today's show. You can support us on Patreon, sign up for our email newsletter and more, all@adhd rewired.com and if this is your first time listening, welcome. Don't forget to hit, subscribe or follow on your podcast app so you never miss an episode. We know that starting is the hardest part, so let's get started. Hey there ADHD Rewired listeners. How's your planning going? How about your routines? Have you been having enough fun in your life or are you spending all of your time working trying to make up for all those times that you were doing things other than your work? When was the last time you really reflected on where you're at in life and thought there's gotta be a better way because because you're listening to this podcast. My guess is you think about these things pretty often. Maybe it's time to go from thinking and get started with doing something different. That's where ADHD Rewired Coaching and accountability groups comes in. Our summer sessions begin July 11th and 12th and go through September 19th and 20th. What makes our groups different? For one we've been iterating this program since 2014 and this will be our third 37th season. 2. We meet three times a week for 10 weeks. 3. Our program is being recognized this fall for the second time at the International Conference on ADHD is one of the featured innovative programs. 4. After 10 weeks you get continued ongoing support in our alumni membership community where we have multiple coach led sessions per week plus tons of peer led support sessions and structured coworking sessions. We really are a community. The only thing we need is you. Our next registration event is this Wednesday, June 19th at 3pm Pacific 6 Eastern. After Wednesday we are raising our prices from 1199 to 1399 because we want you to Sign up before those prices go up and payment plans are available. If this sounds like what you've been looking for, your next step is to go to coaching Rewired.com and add your name to our interest list. Besides from us sending you a bunch of really helpful emails about planning and time management, you'll receive instructions to start your pre registration steps. You'll get to watch a short 15 minute video that goes over all the details of our program. You'll answer some questions, send us a short video telling us about you. All of this will be spelled out in the emails we'll send you. Once you add your name to the interest list@coaching Rewired.com it's time to do something different. Go now. Go to coaching Rewired.com your coaching community awaits. That's coaching Rewired. Com. Last week I co hosted with Chris Wang from Shimmer the neurodivergent Pride panel in honor of Pride Month. And so what you're actually gonna hear for today's episode is the audio recording of that. We had a bunch of questions that were pretty submitted so I think you're really going to enjoy this. This is great for for all of the neurodivergent queer folks as well as allies. I hope you enjoy.
- [03:55]
B
Welcome welcome everyone. Happy happy Pride Month. I am so excited for this conversation today. As you can already see we have three I guess if you add me four lovely faces on the panel that are here to talk be to talk about neurodivergence and pride. This is obviously a topic that is very near and dear to my heart so I'm exc get to co facilitate this. So whether you want to call it LGBT and queer Neuro Queer neurodivergent Pride, whatever feels right for you, feel free to do that. And we'll we're here today to celebrate that intersection today. And just a quick reminder that today's conversation will be recorded and sent out to registrants but only our the panelists faces and voices will be recorded. So we may share out general themes that come out of the chat, but we will not share specifics and will not share your name. So feel free to use the chat to connect with each other to ask questions. Go feel free to go off there Sometimes the chat is more interesting at times than the panel so feel free to use that. And Trina, if you want to go to the next slide, the way that we'll do today's conversation is just a really quick introduction and then we'll jump straight into all the questions that actually came from you all. So in the luma there was the questions during that registration and so we'll pick out some of those questions to ask and if you have any questions also that come out additionally, as we're going on, feel free to just drop that in the chat. If we don't get to it during this conversation, we'll try our best to get to it at the follow up as well. So on to the next slide. Today's panel is brought to you by Shimmer and ADHD Rewired. So Shimmer is an ADHD coaching platform I started two years ago after I was diagnosed with ADHD. Our coaches since then have facilitated over 25,000 one on one coaching sessions, which is incredible. And we offer other experiences too from body doubling, learning modules, accountability tools. I'll drop the link in the chat afterwards. And also secondly, you likely know ADHD Rewired, founded by my good friend and on this panel, Eric tivers. They're celebrating 10 years of podcasting and award winning ADHD coaching and accountability groups. If you haven't had the pleasure of listening to one of their podcasts yet, you definitely should. If you don't know where to start, you can check out the episode that I did with Eric on the topic of feedback, so you can always learn more about Shimmer and ADHD Rewired. I will drop the links really quickly into the chat and next so really quickly so that we can get to the panel. I just wanted to first go over what exactly we mean by neurodivergent pride. I know there's a lot of allies in the audience and who will be watching the recording as well. So the neuroqueer intersection is neurodivergence and queer lgbtq. And so neurodivergence basically means a person's brain functions differently from the typical brain. This covers things like adhd, autism, dyslexia and a lot of other conditions under the neurodivergence umbrella. And then on the other hand, LGBTQ or queer refers to anyone who is non heterosexual, non hetero, romantic or non cisgender. So two disclaimers really quickly on this before we hop in. One, our panelists can't speak, unfortunately, on behalf of the entire neurodivergent population or the entire queer population. So today there will be a slightly stronger skew towards ADHD and autism and non heterosexuality, particularly around bisexuality and pansexuality. So really, today's meant to start to a conversation and add to this ongoing conversation throughout June and the rest of the year rather than really cover the topic exhaustively. So if there's certain intersections or identities that we don't cover, feel free to talk about it in the chat. Feel free to ask questions to each other. There are likely so many amazing neuroqueer folks in the audience who can answer those questions for you as well in the chat. And then the second disclaimer is today is not so much about the research or the science or the statistics of the intersection, which there are a lot of really interesting pieces there. But today we're going to more so cover the lived experience. So really the human impact on individuals in the neuro queer community. So we would today the purpose is really to just create the space for us neuro queer folks to feel more understood and not alone through stories and also to raise awareness, I know for the many allies in the group of this intersection. So without further ado, the slide is already up there. Our amazing panelists. I usually don't like doing introductions for people because I don't do them justice. So I would love to go around and if each of you yourselves can go over a little bit about when you realized and when you came out with your neurodivergence and queerness. I know that's a very big loaded question. So feel free to go wherever you'd like and touch on whichever parts were more impactful for you. Our audience is very interested in the storytelling kind of here around how that happened for you, the sequencing when you realize certain things. So please, if maybe I'll let's go with Eric first if you want to take a moment to tell your story and kind of going into each one of these journeys.
- [09:30]
C
Sure.
- [09:31]
A
Thanks. Well, I first realized I had ADHD after almost failing out of college. So I was 19. And then, you know, further on that neurodivergent sort of awareness journey over the last year, as I've been coming more and more sort of aware of that, that Audi HD kind of part of the spectrum and I've been exploring that as well for myself. So that's been sort of an interesting avenue that I've been exploring. And as far as my queerness, well, I knew that I was bisexual very young, like I was probably six years old and I knew it. I knew that I was attracted to both boys and girls and I attempted or tried coming out of the closet when I was 14 with my parents and it didn't go as super well. My, my dad responded by bringing me Playboy magazines home the next day, which you know, told me two Things he didn't understand what bisexuality meant because I was like, thanks, dad, and that he didn't really accept it. You know, things have changed since. Since then, but so I kind of went back in the closet for many, many years, and I married a very cisgendered heterosexual partner. I am not divorced. Shortly after my divorce, I decided that, you know, it's life sucks in the closet. And so I came out a couple years ago and have been. This is actually my first, like, official time being on any kind of queer panel. And so I'm like, I don't usually get nervous talking in front of people. It's usually my jam. And I'm going to be honest, I'm actually a little bit nervous right now. So that's my abridged story.
- [11:40]
B
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And you are amazing. Doing amazing and going to do amazing. We're so glad that this is the first one that you're doing and you're co hosting the first one you're doing wins. Nate, what about you?
- [11:55]
A
I just want to add one thing too, and Nick can probably speak to this as well. And part of why I wanted to do this is with my podcast, ADHD Rewire. Part of the whole mission of it is to normalize conversations that people don't have. Right. And to have these conversations. And, you know, as much progress that has been made, you know, with LGBTQ rights, like, I think it's hard to not acknowledge that, like, bisexual men, like, where are they? Where are they? So I'm thrilled that you're here.
- [12:28]
D
Thank you.
- [12:31]
C
Yeah. I'm also nervous. You know, whenever I get nervous, people are like, picture the audience in their underwear or something, and I'm just like, they're still staring at me, though, like. But I first realized I was queer when I was in fifth grade, because it was around fifth or fourth grade. Being in a Caribbean family, that's a big no. No, you're not allowed to, like, explore that. Especially, like, with religion. My family's very religious, so it was very hard growing up to explore that. And I kind of been on this straight act for years before I was able to actually come out and be my authentic self. And then as far as my ADHD and autism, I knew I had adhd. When I told my mom, hey, I think I might have adhd, she's like, no, that's only for white people. And the same thing with autism. I was not able to get diagnosed when I was in middle school or high school, and I really struggled academically. I Struggled a lot just growing up with social environments and socializing people and practicing how people engage with each other so I can mimic that. But I got my autism diagnosis last year, and then I also came out as bisexual last year. So everything happened last year. And then ADHD was a previous year.
- [14:19]
B
Wow. Big, big years for you. Thank you. Thank you for being here and for sharing and pushing past the nervousness as well. Really excited to have you here. What about you, Vita?
- [14:34]
D
Okay, so growing up, I kind of. I mean, I grew up in Oklahoma and I was an only child for 14 years. So anytime I would try to raise any kind of neurodivergent question or sexuality other than heterosexuality question, it's just. It's your gaslit quite a bit. Like, there's nothing wrong with you, you're just quirky. There's nothing wrong with you. You're gifted, you know. And I'm like, well, I never said there was anything wrong with me. I just, you know. But as an late diagnosed autistic ADHD woman, which I got diagnosed in my 40s, I look back on my childhood and I see all those gaslighting pieces as they tell you, like, oh, you're fine, you're just quirky. And then my autistic brain is like. And that is written into programming now. So it's just like, you never think of yourself as being able to be autistic or being able to have adhd because people have told you that that's not your experience. And so I tried coming out as a teenager as bisexual, and my. My mom was like, no, women just look at other women sexually because that's how we compare ourselves. And I'm like, I don't think that's what's going on. But it was just that, no, that's not what's happening. And you're like, okay, I guess they know and I don't know. So I didn't really come out as neurodivergent or come out as anything other than heterosexual until I was old enough to realize and to advocate for myself. So I got diagnosed with autism, ADHD in my 40s. And I also came out. I started out, I came out as bisexual. And as I started to explore and I guess be unmasked, I saw an episode of Schitt's Creek that blew my mind. And David is talking about how he really likes wine but not the label. And I was like, that's like my whole life. So I know that's kind of funny, but that, that's where I'm at. So my whole goal is to make sure that people don't feel alone and to generate conversations. So adhd. ADHD coach. I also have a comedy sex podcast. You know, it's like we're. I. I want people to feel safe enough with me to have conversations that they've never felt safe having anywhere else because they're important.
- [17:24]
B
I haven't seen that episode of Schitt's Creek, but now I'm going to watch it because just based on the snippet that you said, I already. I already resonate. Thank you so much for sharing that.
- [17:36]
A
You should name your podcast, by the way, because it's really good.
- [17:40]
D
Oh, it's the Sex Symbol podcast. And my friend, my co host on it, she is straight. And so when people talk about it, like, is it from a straight perspective? And it's like, well, it's from our lived experiences. So as someone who's late coming out and then late neurodivergent, so. But it is. It's funny, it's unscripted, and it's pretty graphic. So hang on to your shoelaces. If you listen to it.
- [18:09]
B
We'll definitely send out links afterwards to everything everyone here is doing. That's super cool. So on. On my end, I actually just saw someone in the chat say that they realized that they were ADHD way earlier than queer. They were queer. I had such an opposite experience. I knew something was up from, like, a queer perspective. I think my, like, so young. Like, I think my first crush was like, Hillary Duff or Miley Cyrus or something. Like, I was just watching TV and I'm just like, this is not normal. Like, I'm. Something's definitely up. And so I knew it, like, in my bones. And I didn't. Obviously, I didn't say anything because no one says anything about that. But then I. When I was 16, I dated a girl in secret. And I didn't tell anyone. I would, like, deny it. I would, like, get really angry if anyone even is like, why are. You guys are, like, hanging out a lot? And I just. I kept saying to her, like, I don't like girls. I like you. And I didn't have the word for it. And only until Miley Cyrus. Again, Miley Cyrus came out as pansexual. And for those of you who aren't familiar with pansexual, at least, how. How I think everyone defines it a little bit differently is that, like, I fall in love with it. I'm attracted with people, and I don't really, like, see the Gender, it's like, it's one thing. It's like, the color of their hair or, like, what clothes are wearing. Like, I see it, but it isn't, like, a deciding factor for me in terms of if I like them or not. And so when Miley Cyrus came out as pansexual, I, like, was like, oh, that. Like, that is what I am. And so I came to terms with it myself in my, like, late teens. But I still didn't tell anyone because shame and, I don't know, just, like, wanting to be the good Asian kid. And I think all of you here can probably also resonate. I think if you're bi or pan, you can always just kind of take the easier route. It's like, I can just be with a guy and just not be with the girl that I want to be with. I kind of have an alternative. So I think I just thought of it like that for a while, until when I came out, I came out at work first, before my personal life, because I was working at Bain at the time, and they had this massive pride party that every single office in the world gets to go to one place, and only the queer people get to go. And so they made it, like a celebratory thing. So I actually came out for that event. And I think it really goes to show the power of, like, pride, right? Like, celebrating the fact that we're queer rather than something that needing to fight against every other piece of our. The expectations and what people are telling us that it's a bad thing, that, like, we need to, like, shut it down. So I kind of. I came out for a party, I guess, and I don't look at it at all. And then for neurodivergence, I had the opposite, exact opposite experience when I was a kid. I was super hyperactive. I was very rebellious. I was getting kicked out of everything. And I just thought I was. I just thought I was a bad kid. I was like, everyone else is good at this. This thing called school, this thing called life. And I was always getting kicked out of everything. So until I guess, like, the Tick Tock and Instagram era, I didn't realize that it was hyperactivity, impulsivity, and all of the ADHD symptoms, like, wrapped up in. In. In a. In a little girl. So I didn't get diagnosed until. Until two years ago. But it's fascinating that depending on all the other parts of your identity and your culture and your upbringing and chance and luck, that we all have, like, such different stories that happen at different times. And I'm seeing similar. Similar, but different stories in the. In the chat as well. Also, I saw. Vita. You were kind of laughing about the Miley Cyrus part. Did you also have a question? Miley Cyrus?
- [22:19]
D
Yeah, I think everyone does. Like. Oh.
- [22:29]
B
All right, let's. Okay, we're on the second question now, so maybe we'll start backwards with Vita. How are your queer and neurodivergent identities related?
- [22:40]
D
Okay, so I'm outing myself here as being a super nerd because we had these questions before, so I went and answered them so I would know what I wanted to say. I think that my queer and neurodivergent identities are related because the way I process information, it's like, I see the whole field. So it. Like, people. I like people, so I see the whole field. And these pieces of information about sexuality or hair color, stuff like that. It's just data. And then. But that's how I. How I process, like, coaching clients. That's how I process problems at home. It's just everything is just this huge set of data. And I was thinking about it when I was answering this question. It was just like, you know, people are like, autism is a spectrum. And it's like. And that's what sexuality is, too. So for me, it was like, I'm just. I see the. The field.
- [23:44]
B
Yeah. I resonate with that so deeply. It's like, without all the labels in the boxes that humans have came and put on top of the data.
- [23:54]
D
Right.
- [23:56]
B
What about you, Nate?
- [23:58]
C
I feel like my neurodivergency shapes the way I see the world. And also, it has helped me shape my queerness, especially with my autism. Like, growing up, I didn't obviously have been into, like, the normal society rules. I always question it. Why do. Why does. Why do things have to be male and female? Why do I. Can't people love who they are, love other people? And it was always just like, I don't know, like, don't question those followed rules. And I just couldn't do it. And I always knew, like, I'm not straight. The amount of things I look back on from when I was a kid, and I am like, how did people not know I was autistic and queer? But, yeah, it's just. I feel like it just shapes the way I see the world. And adding, like, my blackness to that, too, adds, like, another layer that's deeper as well.
- [25:04]
B
What do you think is one of the things that first comes to mind when you say, how could people not have seen that I was Autistic and queer when you're a kid.
- [25:15]
C
Definitely the way I would hang out only to girls and not do sports. And I was super creative. I skipped like two grades and I was like, when I was socializing with people, I was always a weird kid because I didn't know how to socialize. I just like, copied what everybody else was doing. And because I'm copying what they're doing, I'm doing it worse, apparently. So now I'm the weird kid and getting bullied.
- [25:47]
B
Eric, what about you?
- [25:50]
A
It's a. When I first saw this question, like, my brain went in a thousand different directions. You know, I think the first thing that kind of came to mind, though, was about masking and that, you know, being bisexual, as you're kind of alluding to earlier, that it's easier to sort of have, you know, be in a, you know, a cisgender, normative looking relationship. Right. And I think part of, like, when people are assuming something about you and that the assumption couldn't be further from the truth, there's this like, complex heaviness that, like, that you're carrying around. And so, like, you know, whether it was, you know, coming out completely with my ADHD, I, you know, I started my podcast 10 years ago, and, you know, once that was out there, it's like, oh, can't put that cat back in the bag. But I remember feeling, especially when my ADHD were to kind of show up in ways, I was like, oh, crap. And then the responses that people gave me to that as this, like, it was actually really reassuring for them and, like, helpful for them to see, you know, I'm doing this thing. And also my ADHD also shows up sometimes. And that they liked that I was like, oh, I'm gonna just let my ADHD hang out. Cause that actually makes my brain feel way less stressed. And then my ADHD is not as impacted. And I feel the more that I'm coming out and being vocal about my bisexuality, it feels very similar to that. I. Even earlier this week, I'm not someone that gets an Internet fights. I got in an Internet fight this week by someone that posted something that was very anti LGBTQ on Facebook. And I got so just revved up about this and I was like, sort of watching myself as I'm having this, this, you know, debate with this person, and I'm just like, oh, man, this struck something in me that was just. I don't know. It's so I just think the idea of, like, how important it feels from both, you Know from a neurodivergent perspective and a sexual identity perspective to feel seen and understood. And I think when. When there's a lacking of that, it just. It hurts. It really hurts.
- [28:18]
B
Yeah, no, yeah, definitely. I. I really resonate on the. Also with the. Normally don't get into fights, but there's certain things that then you fall into a black hole and you're gone. I'm glad you. You got. You got out of it. Don't check the page again after.
- [28:38]
A
And I'm someone who likes to fight with kindness and reason and logic and really see their point of view. Can I just share my debate point that I thought was so good?
- [28:47]
B
Yes, do it.
- [28:49]
A
So one of the things I said is, so here's what we disagree on how it all happened. You think the devil came into my body and to make me queer. I think it's DNA. What we both agree on is that it's internal and that's not going to change. Right. So like. And I just said like, so are you going to treat someone who. So let's say this, this is a devil for their sake of the argument and say, and this is the devil that I'm going to promise you is never going away. So you're just going to shun somebody who has what you're calling an affliction by the devil? Or can you actually see them with love and see them as a human being? I think I was unblocking their page.
- [29:37]
B
I love it. Love, love the approach. Hopefully comes around one day or she. Or they. I'm not sure. Yeah. On. On my end for the. Also when I read this question and I mean I didn't write it, but I read it and I also my mind went a million different directions, but various people asked different flavors of this question. And I think the first thing that came to mind for me was both of these identities basically mean that I'm not the norm. I'm not right. People expect and you're not like the default, basically. So I think for me it's been a lot of needing to like create or discover my own rules and then advocate for them and explain them to people. And so I think what came to mind is that like, it's kind of a lot of work, a lot of communication and I've needed to get really good at communicating. And with some people, like maybe online I online or like someone I don't like, it's not worth it. But for a lot of people it's really worth it. And so I put in a lot of Effort because I want them to understand where I'm coming from. And I know that I can't expect them to just understand like that because it's years and years and years of conditioning that they've had that something is the norm. And so I think when I was younger, before I knew I had ADHD and before I came out as queer, my friends used to always say that I like with love, but they would say that, oh, it's Chris logic. Like Chris logic is here again. And I would have my own logic. And I felt really bad about it. But I think it's taken probably confidence and awareness in myself to be like, it's yes, it's Chris logic. It's not necessarily negative and it's just as valid as your point of view. And let's talk about it and come to something in between. But I think it really is how these two non normal identities, like non typical identities, come together is essentially needing to like, advocate and communicate and advocate and communicate.
- [31:47]
D
For sure.
- [31:49]
B
And so I think that kind of leads into the expectations of the non typical. So curious for you all, how have heteronormative expectations on more, I guess the queer front and then also neurotypical expectations on the neurodivergent front impacted you the most, positively or negatively? Maybe negatively, but I'll go in a direction I haven't went in, so we'll go Nate first.
- [32:17]
C
Oh, boy. It definitely felt like pressure pushing me down. As a black man, I already face like racial biases and stereotypes. Batting queerness and being neurodivergent into the mix just added like more complexity to it. And often I was just left feeling unseen and invalidated a lot of the times in both identities. And that really forced me to like hide my true self, hide my queerness, hide my neurodivergence, masking to the max just to appear normal. I feel like it just made me feel isolated and exhausted all the time. And it did not really have a positive impact on me. I wish it did, but it didn't. But I just wanted to be understood and accepted by other people and it just never panned out.
- [33:27]
B
Is there any kind of specific example or story that comes to your mind when you think about this question? Probably like a gazillion, but I'm going through the archive.
- [33:44]
C
I'm thinking about when I was in middle school and I started like kind of exploring my sexuality. But I was also very heavily involved in the church. So I had to like hide that part of me and let it be like a secret and not really, like, mess with my mental health. Like, deeply being told these things, like being taught the harmful theology of homosexuality is a sin. You're gonna go to hell. All these things, all that caused a lot of confusion in me and caused a lot of turmoil and pain. And I was constantly feeling like, am I going to hell? Am I an abomination for liking both guys and girls? It was just a really confusing time. And it's like, I don't even know. I just really. I'm glad I'm where I'm at now and glad I can be my true, authentic self. And I wish I can go back in time and tell those little version of me, like, hey, it's okay. You're beautiful. Your queerness is beautiful. You having ADHD and autism is a thing. You're living life on expert mode. But that's okay. You'll get through it.
- [35:08]
B
I love that. Thank you for sharing. And in our audience, in the registrations, I was shocked and happily shocked that there was actually a lot of allies who are parents who have registered to learn more about queerness or neurodivergence. And hopefully your words were as impactful for them as it was for me and to you, Eric.
- [35:36]
A
It's interesting because as I've been exploring this year, whether or not I'm also autistic, when I first read this question, I was like, maybe I've been unaware of what the expectations have been for so long, because I'm like, I don't know how have expectations impacted me? So maybe it's the impact of not being aware of these expectations. But I think part of this. This growing up, you know, undiagnosed and sort of in the closet makes you. This. This desire to feel seen and understood, like, that much stronger and feel almost like this, like, life imperative that. I think it's part of why I'm feeling more, like, vocal about, you know, both my sexual identity and, you know, my. My neurodivergent identity. And just like, I don't know, like, I guess I. Part of it is I. Certain things. I don't care what people think. And. But, you know, which is always like a half truth. And someone says that, it's like, hey, I'll get. Everyone thinks. Except I do still want people to like me, you know, But I don't know. It's a. It's a good question, but a challenging one, because I think that it is. I don't know, because sometimes I don't even know what to expect out of myself as a queer, you know, neurodivergent person who's. And I'm, you know, and it's funny too, because I'm like, can I even say that I. That I'm adhd? Because I haven't had that official, you know, diagnosis yet. And it's like, I feel this, like, imposter syndrome around that, even though, like, every single day there is evidence that is pointing to this. And my therapist also thinks so. And so I don't know, it's. I guess it's also a little bit of fun to push against known expectations and like, the, In a harmless way, making, you know, all the normies feel a little uncomfortable is kind of fun for my brain, if that makes any sense. I don't know.
- [37:51]
B
No, I love it. It totally makes sense. And it's. I think it's beautiful that you don't know or care about the expectations. I think it's. It's like my Chris logic, you know? What about you, Vita?
- [38:09]
D
I think for me, high level masking was just my entire life. Like, I knew that there were facets of my personality that did not fit in different social situations. And so it's like autistic mirroring, you know, like all these different things. So masking my neurodivergence and masking my sexuality, it was just part of the whole thing. I was just masking facets of myself. But I'm going to tell you this, especially since there's all these parents that are in here listening. Your children want to be safe, seen and heard. They don't need you to fix anything for them. They want you to be safe, seen and heard. And then this is where I came out. My daughter came out at 14 as bisexual and my parents told her it was just a face and they invalidated her experience. And I was like, you know what? Hell no. I am also bisexual because that's how I identified at the time. And I was like. My mom was like, no, you're not. I'm like, yes, I am. I just. I tried to tell you and it never happened. Like, and then it was the same. When I got my diagnosis for autism and adhd, my mom was like, no, you're not. Like, yes, I am. Because here's the thing about neurodivergent people. We will show up for other people 150% of the time. We have trouble showing up for ourselves. So I could come out from my daughter. I could come out vocally and proudly with my hands on my hips and make sure that, like, everyone knew. But I had a hard Time coming out when it was just for me.
- [39:54]
A
I was also told it was just a phase. Yeah, I even had a. I even had a family member who identifies as gay call me a few weeks before I got married because he knew that I was. That I was also interested in men. And he says, you know, Eric, if you. If you like men, that means you're gay. Which I had a few choice words about his comments to me.
- [40:24]
B
Yeah, I.
- [40:25]
A
It's so hard. It's just heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking.
- [40:28]
B
I still get from my parents whenever I'm with a guy that I'm straight again. So it's like a forever. A forever thing. Unfortunately, I feel like with an Asian family, I think for me, this question actually, a lot of it came with the intersection of being Asian. I think the expectation of an Asian girl is literally the opposite of, like, the human being that I am as, like, a hyperactive, loud, impulsive queer, colorful, not doctor. I don't know how else to say it, but not doctor. And so for me, I think that ex family and society pressure has always just made me feel like I need to be, like, more quiet and, like, more studious and just turn everything I am just down, like five, five out of five notches. And I think that that has. It just left with me. There's always this feeling of, like, I'm not, like, less enough. Which is, I think, an opposite problem that a lot of people have. And I'm always trying to be like, I don't fit into this, like, thing that I'm supposed to be. So I think that after I came out and after I got my diagnosis with adhd, and especially because I'm so vocal about all of this, because of Shimmer and because there aren't any Asian, barely any Asian role models who have ADHD or who are queer. I've forced myself to, like, speed up this journey of, like, becoming more me, which is a really positive thing. And that's actually funny because some people I haven't seen in, like a year or two since my ADHD diagnosis, and I see them again and they're just like, wow, your ADHD got a lot worse. And I was like, you mean a lot better? It's. It's a lot. It's a lot colorful. More colorful reframing. But, yeah, I've definitely become, I think, more myself, which is more. More. And I think that I've been expected to be more or less my whole life and random anecdote. But I traveled a lot when I was younger, and people would Meet me. And they would be like, oh, you're the first Asian I've met. And then they would start to think that all Asians are like me. And I would be like, wait, wait, wait. Please don't learn from this. I am. I am not a good role model. For. For. For. If you want to, like, build your Asian stereotype in your head, awesome. I think we kind of covered this next topic, but if you want to add anything, because I think this is such an important topic for neurodivergence, and I know it's not technically used in this way for queerness, but I think all of us here understand. So maybe if you. Let's start with Vita backwards. If.
- [43:33]
D
Yeah.
- [43:34]
B
Talk a little bit about how you navigate masking.
- [43:36]
D
Yeah, it's funny. I don't mask anymore. I just, like, I'm just myself. And there are levels of myself which I've had conversations with. People are like, well, it's masking. And like, no, no. Because me, 100% me is a little over empowering to some people. Like, I live in a neurodivergent household. My kids are neurodivergent. My husband's neurodivergent. So there are times where me 100% wide open overwhelms people, depending on where they're at for the day. Like, how many spoons do they have for the day? I may need to dial that back so I don't feel like that is masking. That's like me accommodating my fellow man. Right. But like, at the Chad conference last year, like, I don't mask. And what I do try to do is I just lean in to my weird, to my quirkiness, to myself. Like, if people are afraid to unmask, if people are afraid to come out, if people are afraid to come out as neurodivergent and stuff like that. I want to be the weird girl in the crowd. It's like, well, if she can do it, I can do it, and I'm gonna go stand by her, and then we can be weird together. So I. It's kind of like the deal that I do for my kids. Like, I may not feel super great in a bikini at the beach, but I don't want my kids to have body issues. So I'm going to rock it at mom bod and all. And that's like me. Like, I'm going to rock my neurodivergence and my queerness and everything so that my kids know that it's safe to be them.
- [45:18]
B
I. I Love that. And for anyone who wasn't at the chat conference, Vita had an amazing tutu. Like a massive tutu, I think, like hula hoops and sparkles and other. Yeah. As well. I think your fellow tutors are in this audience as well.
- [45:35]
D
Yeah.
- [45:36]
B
And it was amazing. I think that it can be scary being at these conferences and feeling like you're not enough of whatever and then you see someone in a tutu and you're like, I can go talk to her. And so.
- [45:48]
D
Right.
- [45:49]
B
I was like, hi, nice to meet you. And you immediately feel more comfortable. So thank you for doing that. That.
- [45:53]
D
You're welcome.
- [45:54]
A
Can we coordinate for this conference so we can all wear matching tutus?
- [45:57]
D
Yes. Yes. I really want everyone on that.
- [46:04]
B
Nate, what about you?
- [46:09]
C
I have had to navigate my masking as a survival strategy. And it's a lot obviously being black, like I. When I'm having meltdowns, like I can't have meltdowns in public because I'm always scared of how other people are going to react around me and I'm going to become a hashtag and that's. I hate. That's something I have to think about. But it is. And not so much with my queerness. Like what? I used to downplay my queerness a lot when I was younger, obviously because I was still figuring it out. And also because I come from a family that's Caribbean and religious. So I had to think about that. My mom did not take me coming out very well. It was not a fun time. And then I saw a family member post like a very homophobic thing on Facebook last year, like a month after it came out and the chaotic bisexual and the ADHD me decides to be impulsive and post a picture of me in a crop top in our family group chat and say, happy pride.
- [47:25]
A
I love that so much.
- [47:28]
B
I love it.
- [47:29]
C
So I unmatched for that one second. And my mom was not happy about it, but I was like, hey, but yeah, it's mostly been a survival strategy for me. I just like, there's so much I have to think about. So much I have to counteract with stereotypes and like prove my work, which is. I hate saying that, but I constantly feel like I have to prove my worth and find like a balance to protect my well being.
- [48:01]
D
Damn.
- [48:02]
B
Thank you for sharing that and kudos to the crop top. Eric, what about you?
- [48:13]
A
I think it's been easier around the neurodivergence, you know, like in, like in a social situation, you know, if I'm meeting people, like I'LL I'll introduce myself and just right off the bat tell people, like, I'm gonna forget your name and I'm gonna have to ask you, like, an awkward number of times, so just please forgive me in advance. So, you know, it's just, it's way easier because I don't like just having to call everyone, hey, you. I mean, I even, I even tell people in my groups on, you know, on Zoom, I'm like, if you come in with a different name on your Zoom, that's going to be what I call you. So if, you know, whatever your name says on Zoom, that's what I'm going to call you. And please don't quiz me on your name. Right? And it's just like owning it. And, you know, which I think when we own our stuff, we also see how many people also have feel the sense of, like, relief, because I so relate to that as well. And then I think the queerness one's a little different. I think for me, you know, my current and previous relationships that I've been in were the first relationships where my partner was also queer. And, you know, after my previous relationship, I kind of like, I don't think I'm ever wanting to date a straight person ever again. Because, like, even in my marriage or even in the relationship that I had after my marriage where she was accepting, but she wasn't queer, it is such a profound difference from feeling accepted to feeling celebrated. And I don't want to be accepted. I want to be celebrated. And because it's such, like, I want people to love me for who I am, not just the version of myself they want me to be, because I don't want to be that version. Because then I'm asking.
- [50:10]
B
Yes. Yeah, no, I, I resonate so hard. I mean, I love that. It's, it's pride. It's not like queer acceptance. Although some of the other months have acceptance in it. And I think that they should be celebration.
- [50:26]
D
Yeah, well, I think, I think too. I, I think we're all like these Rubik's Cubes, right? Like, we're, we are so multifaceted. It's. And, And I see this a lot in some of the relationship problems with coaching clients. It's like their partner fell in love with them, like one facet of their personality, but they're neurodivergent, so they're so multifaceted. So it's finding people, friends, partners, things that one can handle. The fact that we have multifaceted personalities and then celebrate that, right? Because I'm not gonna be like, super seductive all the time because I'm going to be like, dorky and hula hoop at least one day a week, you know, and then I'm going to do something over here. So I need someone who can roll with that.
- [51:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think especially with adhd, or at least with me, like, when I fall into a relationship, I fall like in such full force that it's probably not the full me, but there's a big, like, loud me coming at you, and it's probably a part of it. And I didn't think about it that much. You just said it now, Vita. And there's probably a lot of other parts of me that are not coming out. And then over time, they come out and they're. And there needs to be enough, like, love and acceptance and celebration that as we uncover each other, we. We love each other for who we are, not just for the part that you fell in love with.
- [52:04]
D
Right. Being able to. I mean, for neurodivergent people, it's like we, we try to teach people resilience so that they can, like, navigate their emotional regulation. But flexibility is something that people have to have because if you, if you get into a relationship, if you get into anything in life and you don't continue to evolve, like, man, that's going to suck.
- [52:29]
B
Yeah, definitely. And I think too, like, for folks in the audience, I think all four of us here, we think about our neurodivergence at least, and if not our queerness all the time, because it's linked.
- [52:42]
D
To what we do.
- [52:43]
B
Like, we have creator, coach, podcaster, founder, all in the adhd, autism, queerness realm. So we also think about this a lot. And I think that for me, like, masking looks has looked very different now after working like at Shimmer and talking about it all the time, versus basically my entire life where all I feel like similar to you, Nate, it. It's a survival mechanism of masking and trying to be what people expect you to be so that you can get the responses that you feel you need to be loved or to be whole.
- [53:25]
D
Yeah.
- [53:30]
B
Awesome. So let's go a little bit to the concept of coming out. So I think if the people here who are queer will know that, like, coming out is not a one time thing. It's not like, oh, I came out. We always talk about the first time we come out, of course, because that's the hardest one. But every time you meet a new person, you need to decide if you're going to come out. Or not. And with adhd, slash autism, likely that as well. So curious for you guys. And maybe starting with let's go with Nate first. How do you decide when you're going to come out again and again? How do you know when it's safe? How do you think through that process? Anything you want to share along that journey?
- [54:09]
C
I kind of look at. See if the environment's, like, inclusive or if they're having supportive language. Like, with my last job, I worked for education nonprofit that was very big into diversity and inclusion. Always had initiatives for queer people, but anything for neurodivergent people was lacking. So when I got my ADHD diagnosis, I didn't want to really say anything about it because I wasn't sure how they would react to that because I had a lot of trouble focusing work. And then when I got my autism diagnosis last year, I really didn't want to say anything, but I ended up saying something to my boss, and next thing I know, I got laid off the following two months. So I was like, okay, this is not a safe environment. Even though they make it, like, put out this whole front that it is. Oh, and like, that breaks my trust. I never know if it's really safe to come out. But, yeah, as far as, like, queerness, I. I'm very careful of that as well. Like, I'm very, like, open about being bisexual on my social media and talking about it, but there are certain places where I know I have to kind of, like, not show that I'm queer because it could be dangerous. And it sucks because I'm. That means I'm not being my authentic self, but I can't be my own authentic self. That ADHD said, what's going on? What was the question?
- [56:09]
B
I might have been cutting out a little bit at the end. I don't know if that was me or Nate, but the part that I didn't catch, I'm sure was really great as well. And I'll watch in the replay.
- [56:22]
D
And.
- [56:23]
B
And maybe I'll pop it over to you, Eric.
- [56:28]
A
I don't know. It's. It's a really. It's a challenge. Another challenging question, because it's. I feel like it's always evolving, and I'm always like. And it's. It's so interesting, too. I remember it was about, I think, like, two years ago when I came out on my podcast, and then, like, you know, with. And I think it's hard to not get into politics when we're talking about, you know, queer pride and neurodiversion. Pride, and that kind of stuff. And I just remember thinking in hearing these news stories and, you know, in different states basically trying to pass laws that are, you know, anti gay. Right. And it's like, you know, so, like, as soon as I came out, I was like, having second thoughts. Like, was this not a smart idea? Then I was even thinking about, like, did I just put my family at risk? Like, and so it definitely was. Was something that I still kind of wrestle with. You know, it's makes me sort of like, think about the differences between that psychological safety versus our physical safety. Because I think, like, psychological safety, it almost feels safer to come out. But then I feel, is there then risk on my physical safety? I don't know. I mean, even. I put out a couple emails for this event, and about 15 minutes before I logged on, I got an angry email basically saying, please take me off your email list. I don't want smut like this.
- [57:58]
B
Yeah.
- [58:00]
A
And so I immediately responded to that task, unsubscribed her, and said, done. So it's like. And it's just sad to me that there's still, like, that is. And this is why pride is so important, because there's still lots of people who think what, like, who we are is wrong? So, yeah, I don't know. I don't always have the, like, with this kind of question. I. I'm still exploring that. I don't always know. You know, it's like, I think about it from a personal standpoint. I think about it from even like a, A business standpoint. And, and, you know, it's like, are people not going to want to work with me if they know that I'm queer? Right. It's like, you know that. So I think that on one hand, but on the other hand, well, if they wouldn't want to work with me because I was queer, I wouldn't want to work with them anyways. But it also makes me sad that, like, there are people who are like that. All right, so I don't know.
- [58:53]
B
Yeah, we definitely get a lot of unsubscribes during Pride Month. And just by you never. Yeah, I think that I mean a lot of these. I think about this a lot. And I think a lot of these things with neurodivergence and queerness, some of it is like, internal, and we work through it. And I think a lot of these, especially this question about whether or not we come out, is really about, like, the environment around us and the environments that we put ourselves in. And I just think About, I hope that we're moving forward, forward, slowly, sometimes backwards, one step, sometimes forwards. But it really requires, like, the workplaces that we're in to truly be inclusive. Like, unlike Nate, the story that you told, and then our communities around us as well, especially if we come from specific cultural or religious communities. And there's just so much work to be done. Like, even I was talking to someone recently and I think she was in the Germany or somewhere in Europe where if you disclose that you have ADHD or you're autistic, that there becomes, like, a risk to your child being taken away from you. And so just depending on where you're at, it's such a massive difference. And it's not just about, like, are you proud or not? But similar to what you said, Eric, like, are you putting other people in your life at risk? And that's super scary. For me, I think that I've. When I came out at Bain and because I was excited for the party and it was celebrated, I just love that so much. And I think that's essentially what I'm trying to create around me with Shimmer and with everything that I do, that other people can also be able to be proud of their queerness, their neurodivergence, their whatever else that they want to be proud of. Because I think I just had it with being in other situations where I wasn't able to. So luckily now in most of the situations I'm in, I don't need to think too hard about it because those spaces have been. I mean, I think, like, six. I think we recently counted, like, 68% of our team is neurodivergent. So I think it's at a point where sometimes the neurotypical people are like, wait, I'm, like, the only neurotypical person here. And then they feel a little bit awkward. So we've almost, like, overcorrected in the other. In the other direction. But, yeah, I think with coming out, though, like, as queer coming out, the one space where I still do not say it almost ever is with. With my family, like, with my Asian family.
- [61:35]
D
Well, my.
- [61:35]
B
My only family is Asian. But especially it's disqualifying that they're Asian, but especially the older ones, like my grandparents, I will never tell them and they will never know. And it is just how it needs to be. There's certain people or communities where I feel like it might be a bit too far gone. Yeah.
- [62:00]
C
I also wanted to say I feel like sometimes when you come out as neurodivergent, People think you're using it as an excuse to be, like, lazy. I'm not lazy. I'm overwhelmed. My spoons are gone. I need accommodations, and I can't get them because people won't believe me or because they have this pre image of what autism is supposed to look like in their heads or what ADHD is supposed to look like. And now I'm suffering because they don't think I am your diversion or ADHD or have autism.
- [62:34]
D
Yeah, but I think it's the deal about having to come out again and again, right. You have to reassess, like, every single place that you are, every single person that you let into your periphery. You know, it's like, is this safe? But I mean, we do it as neurodivergent people. We do it all the time with, like, masking, right? We're like, is this safe to unmask? Is it safe to be myself in that situation? Is it safe to be all the way myself? Like, can I come out with my sexuality? And I. I really don't talk to people much about it unless, like, I talk about it on the podcast. But that's. It's in the sex positive space. That's, like, what it is. But I. I'm that neurodivergent person that is like a massive oversharer. Like, if you want to know something about me, you ask, do you have some time? Because I will tell you. And so that. That's hard for a lot of people. And it have bit me in the butt a few times because it wasn't safe to disclose some of those things. And so now, as a much older person, much older in my 40s, but as a much older person, it's like, that's not safe. Is it safe? It's like, that is the part that's the most exhausting part about being a neurodivergent adult is like, the constant data collection of making sure that you're safe. And how do you talk up in social situations?
- [64:11]
B
Yeah, 100%. And a lot of our. Maybe to the next question, Trina. So a lot of our audience wants to get more involved in the adhd. Sorry, I put ADHD there, but neurodiverse and LGBTQ communities, so curious for you all. I think you can also talk about what you do, but if there's anything else outside of that as well that are in both these spaces that you do to get involved, some tips and advice there. So maybe let's start with Eric.
- [64:44]
A
Well, for the ADHD piece, I mean, it's you know, I've been doing the ADHD Rewired podcast and my coaching groups for, you know, a decade now. So that's a huge part of what I have been doing, because I just think the power of community and being together with people who get you. We don't need to, like, explain. And where all of the over sharing is welcomed is just a wonderful space to be in as far as how I'm involved in the LGBTQ space while I'm doing something like this. And I've also been, like, you know, contemplating doing some other things that are both ADHD and LGBTQ focused. I haven't quite planned in on what that is. I've been thinking about doing something specifically for bisexual men because I just feel there's a huge lack of representation, as I mentioned earlier. So I'm kind of like. I'm exploring right now how I can really have my voice more heard. And I listened to this book not that long ago, awesome book on Audible called Boy Slut. And one of the things he talks about in this book is like, you can't just. It's not about awareness. It's got to be vocal. You got to be vocal because, like, you got. People got to hear you talk about it. And so it's part of, you know, why I felt called to doing this, because, you know, there's. There's nothing wrong with who you love and having a differently wired brain. And, you know, we want other people to also see that. And. And because there is such a healing power in being able to see yourself in somebody else to say, you know, what that person's.
- [66:32]
D
They're.
- [66:32]
A
They're all right. And if I could see myself reflected back, that could help me know that I'm all right, too.
- [66:41]
B
I love that I dropped both the ADHD rewired and I think the right book, the link into the.
- [66:48]
A
Yeah, that's it. Oh, it's so good.
- [66:51]
C
It's one of my favorite books.
- [66:53]
B
Okay, Nate, you go next because you're celebrating everything Eric said.
- [66:59]
C
No, I just really love Boycella. I love Zachary. He's amazing. We exchanged dms from time to time.
- [67:07]
A
Now I'm jealous.
- [67:09]
C
Not like that.
- [67:12]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [67:15]
C
But for me, I. So I do content creation on my Instagram and I talk about being queer, neurodivergent and sober from a black perspective or a person of color. And for that, I just. I like to share, like, stories, like, my personal stories, because sometimes I feel like people are going through certain things and they feel, like, really alone, and they feel like they have nobody and nobody gets it. So I share some of my, like, personal stories. Some things are, like, deep to kind of help people who may be feeling alone, not feel so alone. But I also get involved with, like, local charities and local LGBTQ organizations. I'm trying to find some local neurodivergent agencies, which I just did a collaboration with, one in the uk. But, yeah, I just. I really just want to want people to know that they're not alone. I just really want there to be more representation, especially for bisexual men, like Eric said, because there's a major lack of that, and it's also, like, just a major lack of it from the black community as well. So I just want to be that representation.
- [68:43]
B
Love it. Yes. Drop your Instagram in the chat. Actually, the how I even found Nate for this panel was we did another panel as adhd. And after that happened, I think, like, two people who are on the panel were like, you need to get Nate on your panel next time. So his Instagram is awesome and beautifully designed, so please go check that out. Vida.
- [69:10]
D
Okay, so for me, I have. I am on the board of directors for a. An Audi HD nonprofit called Dueling Minds. And Michael Rufkin, or Druid, he was on one of your previous panels for adhd. He just started this as a way to try to help ADHD individuals get resources. So for those of you out there that are wanting to get involved in these communities, finding nonprofits that you can volunteer for, which, if you want to go to Dueling Minds, we need volunteers. But finding these nonprofits that you can volunteer for is a great way to get involved in the community, and it allows you to do a piece that you are comfortable with, right? Like, if you just want to help somebody with marketing or if you just want to help somebody, like, you want to help run a zoom for a peer support group or you want to do whatever, like, you can be as involved as much or as small as you want, and, you know, follow people on socials that have the same kinds of things that you want to align yourself with. Like, if you want to start the conversation around sex positivity, follow sex positive content creators. You know, I mean, not tooting my own horn, but, like, you know, you can listen to my podcast. You can share other people's work. It doesn't just have to be mine. Like, Eric's amazing, and he has this giant podcast. It's like the Mountain Vesuvius of ADHD podcast. Like, listen and share that out, you know, because sometimes it. All it is is is sharing. Like, this is so great and I want other people to hear it and you can share it to your story on social media. So it's really, really easy to get involved. It just depends on what your time commitment is. Because I'm really protective of my time. Sometimes not enough. But that's a lesson that I've had to learn. So that's my only caveat for all of you that are like, I want to go get involved and I want to volunteer. Like, make sure that you're not over volunteering because there's dopamine to be had in those places.
- [71:29]
B
Yeah, 100%. I, I think about this as well, because I think a lot of us are people pleasers, yes, men, whatever you want to call it. I think there's a lot of things that you can get involved in that you're just consuming. I think we're all, all of us here create content. You can also just attend things. So one thing is I actually run Ada's Asian support group and I know that they also have LGBT support groups, but I. It's on my list to go to them, but as Rita mentioned, I'm already running the Asian one, so it's just time. But if you're interested, ADA has, I think it's $9 a month or something like that. And you can access all of their peer support group. So if you have varying identities that you want to explore in the context. So sorry, ada's for adhd. I'm not sure if there's something, maybe some autism. Sorry.
- [72:21]
A
For adults with adhd.
- [72:22]
B
Ada adults with adhd. Yes. And then also this year, another thing we're doing to get involved is myself, Vita and Eric. We're actually running the first LGBT support group at the ADHD conference, which is in person, which will be really fun as well. And yes, Kristin shared a two month for free ADA code in the chat, so you can get two months for free and test out different support groups if you would like. And then I'm just pulling on mine since everyone gave their Instagram. I'm also going to give my Instagram. I started creating content on my own account. So if you want to check me out, I just did a queer. A queer reel as well. So I just dropped that in the chat as well. And you don't need to track all these links. Also, we will put all these links that I'm dropping in the chat afterwards all together. And then also ask the speakers if there's anything else that they want to add. So don't worry if You've missed something awesome. We are just on time. We only missed two questions. That's okay. We. We did pretty well. Thank you. Thank you. I know we. I lost track of time in the last two minutes. I was so good. But thank you, panelists. It was such a good conversation. I saw peaks of what was happening in the chat as well. Folks connecting and chatting with each other. So thank you all for showing up for allies who aren't neurodivergent or queer. Also, extra thank you for taking time out of your day. As Vita mentioned, like, we know time is scarce. So for all of you who showed up here, thank you for that and especially for the panelists for sharing vulnerably. Even though I think everyone was nervous, but we all did awesome. So thank you. Thank you so much. We will share out everything afterwards, so don't worry about it. You'll get the recording, you'll get all summarized notes, and you will get all the links that we shared as well. So I hope everyone has a wonderful rest of your Thursday and a wonderful rest of your pride for June.
- [74:27]
A
Thanks. Thanks, everyone for being here.
- [74:29]
D
Thanks, guys.
- [74:31]
C
Hi, y'.
- [74:31]
B
All.
- [74:32]
A
I really hope that you enjoyed that again. Just want to remind you about our summer coaching program. Go to coachingrewired.com to learn more about that. You could also find out about our co working community adult study hall@adultstudyhall.com and if you are enjoying this podcast and you want to support our work, we would greatly appreciate it because right now we could use the help. And you can do that and support us financially by going to ADHD rewire.com Patreon and become a patron. Because I would love to hire a podcast editor. Right now, it's not in the cards, but you can help make that happen. So if you want to support this work, that would be awesome. Thank you. All right, that's all I have for today and we'll. We'll catch you back next week. Thanks so much.