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ADHD reWired
540 | Hormones, Migraines, Social Skills with Gilly Kahn Ph.D
00:51:43
Welcome back to another episode of ADHD reWired. Our guest today is Dr. Gilly Khan, Ph.D., a licensed psychologist who specializes in working with children, teens, and young adults dealing with anxiety, depression, and ADHD. In this episode, Dr. Khan...
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- [00:00]
A
ADHD Rewired episode 540. Since 2014, this has been the podcast for ADHD adults who have really good intentions and a slightly wandering attention. I'm Eric Tivers. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and an ADHD certified clinical services provider by training and a coach by design. I'm your host and I have adhd. ADHD Rewired is more than just a podcast. You can learn about our coaching and accountability groups, our virtual co working community and and more all@adhd Rewired.com we are wired for connection and you are not alone. Learn more about our offerings, including our monthly live Q&As. Get additional resources for every episode, including links to any resources we mention on today's show. You can support us on Patreon, sign up for our email newsletter and more, all@adhd rewired.com and if this is your first time listening, welcome. Don't forget to hit, subscribe or follow on your podcast app so you never miss an episode. We know that starting is the hardest part, so let's get started. Welcome back to another episode of ADHD Rewired. Today's guest is Gilly Khan. Gilly is a licensed psychologist who specializes in working with children, teens and young adults with anxiety and depression. In addition to adjustment, school and social challenges. Specific difficulties include social anxiety, depression, parenting stress and obsessive, compulsive and related disorders. Dr. Khan specializes in improving emotion regulation, social skills and organizational skills with autistic or ADHD individuals. She is originally from South Florida, but she is now a proud Braves fan. So for all of you sports ball people out there, go Braves. When she is not with family, you can find her sitting with her laptop in some random corner listening to a podcast or writing. Dr. Carnese has co published her research on teens communication patterns and anxiety in addition to blogging for Attitude magazine. And she practices with concierge psychology. So Gilly, welcome to the podcast.
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B
Thank you. Thank you, Eric. I'm so excited about being here.
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A
I'm excited to have you here. And this, it's funny, I think this is the longest stretch I've gone without recording a podcast because I was actually on a three week vacation. I'm just dusting off a little bit here, so. So here we go.
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B
Oh my God. Three weeks is legit. That's a real break.
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A
It was. Well, it was supposed to be a real break but I had full on Covid the first week so that was kind of a bummer. And then I went to Mexico and then I Came back for another week, which was lovely. So I had like a 2ish week break, but it was still very nice.
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B
Okay, so I'm sure the vacation felt even better then because you were coming off of COVID and.
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A
Yes, and thankfully I was well at the time I to board that plane. So enough about me. So let's talk about you and kind of what you do. So you're a psychologist. Tell us a little bit more. Kind of what. What you do, what your background is, because you're not that you haven't been diagnosed for that long with adhd, right?
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B
No. So I was diagnosed about a year ago with adhd, but it wasn't something that was surprising to me. And I think a lot of women will say that, because a lot of them are now going in and seeking out diagnoses for themselves, because ADHD is so not understood very well for women. So I was diagnosed at age 33. But, you know, it wasn't a surprise to me. It was something that I've suspected for many, many, many years.
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A
Was there any reason or thing you could think of that why you put off getting that diagnosis if you were suspecting it?
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B
Yeah, and maybe a lot of moms will feel this way too, but it kind of, you know, when my daughter was born, maybe when she was 2, my husband and I just looked at each other and we said, we think she has ADHD. And, you know, she was 2, so she's. She was very young, and she's still very young. Uh, but as she got older, I kept thinking about it more and more. And, you know, my husband used to joke about it, like, where'd that come from? Um, and whenever I would make a comment and say, like, probably for me, it was like, no one really knew that I was being semi serious. But I think that's really what triggered me to go get diagnosed. The other thing is that now, even though there's still a lot of stigma surrounding adhd, I was in a situation where I was in communication with another professional, like another psychologist who was very open about her ADHD diagnosis. And I really liked that about her. And it made me think differently about the way that I view ADHD diagnosis. And it's so important to practice what you preach. And so if you're asking your clients to be proud of their neurodiversity, and here you are, you know, like, keeping it in, it just felt hypocritical to me. So I went out and I bought a neurodiversity sticker, and I put it.
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A
So now you're, you're a card carrying member. I, I have my neurodiversity sticker on my, on my laptop, which I know showing something makes great for podcasts.
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B
That's cute.
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A
So how has it been since. So it's been a year since diagnosis. What's changed for you?
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B
A lot has changed for me, I think the biggest improvement was as a result of starting medication. And it wasn't easy to start medication because we are still experiencing the stimulant shortage. And I had heard about it from work with my clients and I mean, it was something we talked about like every week with someone different who wasn't able to get their medication, had to switch, you know, had to get the name brand and pay so much out of pocket. And then I experienced it myself and realized how difficult it is to get help. But medication has helped me the most. And the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize that I didn't know that I really had to teach myself, is that medication helps so much more than just allowing you to pay attention. It regulates your mood. You know, like without it, I just feel. I don't know a better way to describe it than like, there's like bugs scraping beneath my skin.
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A
Yeah, I feel that.
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B
It's like this itch and then I just feel like I can sit still. I feel like more calm. And it's interesting to me too, because I mostly work with kids and they can't really vocalize, you know, or some. For some of them, it's hard to really express or to even realize what the medication is doing. But their parents will say, I notice a difference. And so I'm able to kind of notice within myself physiologically the difference. And I think it helps me and my work with kids with adhd.
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A
Well, awesome. So I know one of the things that you are interested in is talking about the sort of hormonal roller coasters that come along with adhd. So what got you interested specifically in that area?
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B
Okay, so I. I'm trying to think about where do I even start? Because this is an ADHD podcast.
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A
The middle.
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B
Probably in the middle. Okay, so it's the year. I don't even know, like tw. It's the year 2010, and I'm in my dorm room in college and I'm lying down in the dark in a cold room and. No. Okay. But really though, like I'm describing when I really started experiencing very severe migraines and it was when I started college, I was about. I don't know, 18. And migraines are highly genetic, FYI. And this is relevant because all of these physical conditions that are so much more prevalent for women have a connection to estrogen levels. And we're only now starting to put those pieces together for women in connection to adhd. So that's why this might sound like it's coming out of left field, but it's very, very relevant to women and girls. And so many people don't know this. And it's especially important for psychologists and for mental health providers to know this, because if you have a girl who's coming in, who maybe just started her period and now is emotionally labile or now she's starting to display difficulties with paying attention, and maybe she even has a history of headaches, then it's important to assess for adhd. So, you know, it's about kind of figuring out what. What is the first domino that knocked down the rest. And if I had someone who was knowledgeable at the time, then maybe I could have been diagnosed a lot sooner. But it started out with really horrible migraines. I mean, like, days. Days at a time. And it was really hard to, like, get through anything through work. And migraines lead to a lot of, you know, forgetfulness and actually difficulties with producing language, which is also a thing for adhd. So all of these similarities, you know, they affect your mood. And so it kind of started there. And then as I got older, I was trying to get pregnant with my daughter, and it turned out I also had pcos, Polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is basically like a cluster of symptoms for women where your estrogen levels are out of whack, but not just your estrogen. Like, a bunch of, like, sex hormones are out of whack. And so that leads to, like, unpredictable periods and, like, a bunch of other symptoms. I know this is a fun topic for your show, Eric, but good. It's. It's important for women to know this stuff, you know, so it turns out that estrogen, as I was saying before, has a strong connection to ADHD symptoms. And why. You know, why is that? We all hear about dopamine being related to ADHD and that people with ADHD have less dopamine in their system, and they try to compensate for that, maybe through addictive behaviors such as overeating or, like, excessive video gaming or overspending, or you can take stimulants, which may help with that. Definitely help with regulating dopamine levels. But there are also other neurotransmitters that are Tied to estrogen fluctuations. And also, it's not only estrogen. It's so complicated. So the other neurotransmitters include acetylcholine, which has to do with memory, and serotonin, which has to do with mood. And so we have mood, memory, motivation.
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A
Norepinephrine as well.
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B
Norepinephrine as well. Yes, exactly. Ability to kind of regulate stress and stay alert.
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A
I was just thinking of, like, this whole, like, a character play of, like, each of these neurotransmitters being like, a. A different character. And like, dopamine's clearly the star and the diva and. And everyone else just kind of in dopamine's shadow, you know, And I think we need to, like, highlight the other characters, because they also have a very important role in this play.
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B
Exactly. Yep. All the characters count. That's very. I love your analogy.
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A
The extended metaphor just went to cheesy land. All right, that's fine. But that works. But. But it is true. It's. It's every. It's not just dopamine.
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B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And now I'm thinking about, like, inside out, you know, Like, I'm just like, what color would dopamine be?
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A
Sparkaway.
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B
Sparkaway.
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A
I think it would be like a disco ball. Like, just that's. That's the shape. Disco balls. Everything reflects, is shiny, is fun, doesn't stop moving.
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B
That makes sense. Yeah. Disco. Dopamine.
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A
So now with the hormone fluctuations during the month, I know that sort of the cutting edge of prescribing. Let's say you adjust doses based on where you are in the month. Are you personally doing that?
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B
No. So there really isn't, to my knowledge, specific research on how to adjust dosage. I mean, I could be wrong, but I think there's such little research on this topic in general, like, a handful of studies, and maybe if there are more, they all came out, like, this year. But in terms of how would you even adust the. Adjust the dose? Like, there. There isn't anything like that. And most psychiatrists won't even know that that's a thing.
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A
Well, most psychiatrists don't even know how to treat adhd. Like, Right. Like, you know, just straight, basic adhd, let alone, you know, all the other nuances that come along with it.
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B
Right. Yeah, I can see that being just very complicated. The other thing is, every woman also differs in her response to fluctuating estrogen levels. One thing I will say that's very, very interesting, though, in terms of, you know, migraines, is that there are some, some reports by people that if you take a stimulant when you have a migraine, then your migraine symptoms are alleviated. And because. Right. Stimulants increase dopamine and migraines are associated with low estrogen, low dopamine. And so if you're taking a stimulant, it addresses that. I mean, it's actually kind of cool, the things that stimulants can treat. But I found that that's true for me. The thing is, though, that as soon as the stimulant wears off, then the migraine comes back.
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A
And I know I've. I think I've had like five or six migraines my whole life. And I. When I hear about people who have regular migraines, my. My heart just goes out. Cause it's like, it's awful. It's a. It is an awful experience. And to have to deal with that on a regular basis, I can't even imagine that.
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B
Yeah, it is awful. Actually. My next Attitude Mag blog post is going to be about that. And I like to recommend. There's a book by Maria Konnikova, and it's available on Audible, but she does a really good job explaining the history of migraines and kind of like the gender discrepancy. And basically she says that, you know, Sigmund Freud can be thanked for migraines being viewed as this, like, psychological thing because he would basically say that, you know, if you, if you have migraines, it's sort of like a form of, like, hysteria. Maybe women are being overdramatic. That's so untrue. And, you know, it's sort of like, you know, the patients I see with derealization syndrome, where they feel kind of disconnected from their bodies or from their environments. They get so annoyed when people mention grounding to them or at least, you know, the ones without a trauma history. Because. And I, I can relate because if some, if I went to a professional and I said migraines are very distressing to me and they started to do a mindfulness activity with me, I would slap them. No, I wouldn't slap them, but I would be really, really invalidated.
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A
Y. Yeah, yeah, let's do this. Let's take a, a quick break and when we come back, let's. Let's continue in this conversation. Right? Hormones, migraines and everything else. Adhd. So we will be right back. Hey there, ADHD rewire listeners. Did you miss our summer coaching group registration deadline? No worries. We've got you covered. We've pushed back the deadline a week because we want to make sure that everyone has a chance to join. Like getting to the airport and finding that your flight was delayed for just enough time for you to make it. How about this one? It's like showing up to the doctor's appointment an hour late but a day early. Or it's like you missed the ice cream truck only to hear it coming back down your street one more time. Or it's like thinking you waited too long to start on that project and just accepting the repercussions that are about to come. And then getting a message that the deadline was extended and that you won't have to retake that class or you won't have to start looking for another job after all. However you want to say it, you just got one more chance. So if I get this out on time, you can join us for one of two additional registration events that we just added. The first one is on Monday, July 1 at 11am Pacific 2 Eastern. That's the one that I'm hoping I will get this out on time for. And then the second one is Wednesday, July 3rd at 11am Pacific 2pm Eastern. Our summer sessions start on July 11th and we want you to be a part of it. Whether you've been looking for better strategies, more support, or just a community that gets it, we've got you. Picture this a summer where you're not just getting by, but you're actually finding new ways to thrive with adhd. So set a reminder. Mark your calendar, write it on your bathroom mirror with dry erase marker, or tie a string around your finger. But don't forget to add a tag with a label to that string. Otherwise, the only thing you'll probably be reminded of is that there's something you're trying to remember. However you're reminded of it. If you can't do it this very moment, don't miss out on this chance to join us. Head on over to coaching Rewired.com to sign up. Let's make this summer the one where you find your groove and get the support that you deserve. And if you really do want to join us for our registration events, keep not working with your schedule. We also have an option for you to schedule a one on one registration call to meet with me or another ADHD Rewired Coach ADHD Rewired. Real support, real strategies, real community. We'll see you there. And don't miss out. Your new path starts by going to coachingrewired.com get your name on that list. It's coaching rewired.com. all right, we are back, so maybe you can share a little bit. Something that I actually learned recently about, specifically about migraines is that migraines don't always take form in the shape of a headache.
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B
Yes.
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A
Can you speak a little to that?
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B
Actually, there's some work on, like, how migraines manifest themselves in children. And in children, a lot of times it doesn't really come out as a migraine. It might be more like stomach issues. So there's basically. I don't know if this is supported by research, but I know there's a theory that it kind of originates, like, in the gut, which is why there's nausea. That's often tied to migraines. And that's something a lot of people don't think about, too, that it's a stomach thing. So a kid might come in and basically tell you that they're throwing up and that, you know, they're feeling nauseous. And you may not necessarily immediately tie that to migraine, but that could be exactly what the issue is.
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A
So I think on maybe first glance or the initial sort of presentation, that might look like anxiety, right?
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B
Yes. Yeah. And I think a lot of. And I experienced this, too. A lot of, you know, primary care doctors and even, like, neurologists and people who specialize in migraine, like, as humans, we always try to find an explanation, like a solid explanation, or identify a specific trigger. But I found this, and Maria Konnikova says this in her book, too. And I've also seen it in Joan Didion's In Bed, where she talks about migraines. There isn't one. You know, it's like shooting at a dartboard without a specific direction. Like, I think you can be grasping for straws, trying to find a specific trigger. But I think that for a lot of people, there isn't a specific trigger. It could be that I'm stressed, or it could be that I ate a banana, or it could be that I had a glass of wine. I mean, who knows what it is? Because on any given day, it's different. Yeah. So that. That complicates things. But, yeah, I forgot the question.
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A
That's okay. That makes two of us. Okay. So now you work primarily with youth, right?
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B
Yeah, I work with adults, too, but mostly teens.
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A
Okay. And when you're working on sort of some of the emotional regulation stuff with teens and maybe some young adults, what are some of the specific sort of skills that you help individuals sort of learn? And how do you approach that I.
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B
Think usually the go to response that I get from kids and teens when I ask them, well, what are some things you can do when you feel emotionally like overwhelmed or your emotions feel like they're kind of taking over? The first thing they'll say, all of them, is take a deep breath. And we all know how effective that is. Like if you have adhd, you know, it doesn't work. The other thing that people immediately jump to is, well, can I ask, can.
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A
I ask you that when you say it doesn't work, what do you mean by work is? You know, I think taking a deep breath and you're kind of emotionally hijacked is a really helpful first step.
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B
Yeah, it doesn't work because ADHD is a performance based deficit, meaning that in the moment you're not thinking straight. You know, it's like, you know the Snickers commercial, Like you're not you when you're hungry. Like that thing, you're not you when you have ADHD and you're mad.
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A
So you're, you're not saying that it's not helpful. It's just, it's hard to remember that, to do that in the moment.
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B
Right. Like the advice isn't helpful because you need to know who you're talking to. If it's someone without ADHD and they're not so dysregulated, then yeah, take a deep breath. I'll use that with, with kids like that. But for someone with ADHD who has a reputation or like a history of really struggling with regulating their emotions, it's nice in theory. But then when you put them in the situation, it's like they could try that again and again and again and again. But if they struggle with forgetfulness and they're not them when they're hungry, then they're not going to be able to execute.
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A
So then what do you do?
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B
Yeah, okay, good question. So I think the first recommendation that I give is medication because that helps with decrease impulsivity, but also it's not going to fix everything. So if it's possible. Usually what I recommend to clients is if it's possible, try to take a time out. So that means separating from the situation, but not just like barging out saying, I need five, right? Or give me a sec and then, you know, we can work on this after and potentially getting the other person involved. So like, if it's a parent, you know, I include the parents in this discussion, so maybe they could even prompt the kid and then we could talk about, well, what if the kid refuses to leave the room. What do you do? And kind of coach them in the moment to recognize what's happening in their body and that they are kind of, you know, emotionally dysregulated. And so if they're able to separate themselves, that's the right time to start using those coping skills, take a deep breath, maybe think about things a little bit more rationally, and then they can become, you know, the real them again and come back to the situation.
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A
Have you found that since your own diagnosis, the way you work with them has changed at all?
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B
Yeah, it has. I think, because I'm now much more open about my diagnosis. It makes me really emotional, honestly, thinking about it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because so many teens have said to me, like, it means I'm stupid, or it means there's something wrong with me, you know, And I would point to my doctoral diploma on the wall and be like, you see that I have adhd. I'm not stupid.
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A
Let me ask you this. How. How hard was it completing your. Your education?
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B
It was really hard, but also it got. And this is what I tell teens, too, as sort of like the light at the end of the tunnel. It got less hard as I got to choose.
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A
Yes.
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B
What I wanted to do.
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A
Yeah. I remember thinking with. With grad school, it's like, even though it was, like, super hard because of the work demand and everything, but as far as, like, for my interest, like, every class is great. Like, you know, even my policy classes I was interested in, which is absolutely true. I think it is easier to be in higher ed with ADHD because it's all about what. What you're interested in. You don't have to take those. Those electives that, you know are. Are required or whatever. What else? As far as working with teens, normalizing, helping them develop some of these emotional regulation strategies. And you also do social skills stuff. Right. So talk a little bit about that. Because I think that so many of us with adhd, different areas of our sort of social lives that are like, oh, maybe I didn't see myself that way. Oh, have I been doing that forever? Or. Oh, I. You know, people tell me I'm this or I'm that. And, like, I don't. I don't mean to. How are you. How do you work with individuals specifically on social skills? Because ADHD is a performance disorder. Not. So it's like, you can know what to do socially.
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B
Yes.
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A
But sometimes it's hard to do it.
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B
So I know there are sort of, like, mixed findings with doing social skills groups and Social skills training. But the bottom line is that it depends on how you're structuring the group and who you're including in it. So if you're including people where there is some kind of a knowledge gap and they. They don't know, like, they legitimately just don't know what to do in the situation. So, like, when I've done groups in the past, I've included autistic youth in there too. Kind of like the neurodiversity umbrella. But the kids with ADHD would have to have some kind of like a skills lack of knowledge. But also you need to make sure that whatever you're doing is applied, that the kids are actually practicing with each other. Because neurodiversity is all about being able to, you know, generalize skills because it's hard for us to kind of connect the dots. And in a sense, some of our behaviors are context dependent or state dependent. And so we kind of have to be in the situation to really be able to recall what to do in that specific situation. So practicing, but then also connecting with the parents and guiding them on how to coach their kids outside of the therapy office. But I think, you know, even if the results are mixed, based on kind of not really clear guidelines for how to do social skills training, like, every group could be different. To me, the most rewarding thing about doing that kind of a group, and what makes me feel like it is worth it is that a lot of these kids don't have friends or they really struggle with making friends, or they don't know anyone else who's neurodivergent. So it's like amazing to be in the group and see, you know, like a teen looking and seeing other teens struggle with the same thing. And they find it hysterical because they, you know, it's like, I'm not the only one. And for some reason it's like, you know, we get each other.
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A
It is true. I think when you're in those sort of neurodivergent spaces, there is this feeling of just instant belonging. And I know for so many people with ADHD or autism, like, that has not been the normal experience.
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B
Yes, it just, it's very validating. And people like, we need each other. We need support and to feel loved and to feel accepted. And it's. It's hard to feel that way when you feel like you're speaking a language that no one understands.
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A
And I know some of the research, and I've heard bark, we talk about this in the past, that social skills groups for kids with more that. That hyperactivity and impulsivity is contraindicated. But for kids with more, the inattentive and anxious kind of kids, like, they can do very well. Have you seen any of that applied in adulthood? Are you doing any kind of social skill to work with adults?
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B
No, I'm not. I'm actually that. That finding is very interesting. It makes me think a little bit about, you know, the iatrogenic effects that are connected to groups of, for.
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A
For those who aren't psychologists. Can you explain what that is?
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B
Okay. Iatrogenic effects are kind of like backwards effects. It's like when you want a type of treatment to help. Like if you're setting out to do a group to help people, but it actually makes things worse. Yeah. So there's like research on like teens who have conduct issues and when you get them all together in a room.
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A
We'Re all gonna learn each other's conduct issues and possibly adopt them. Right. It's. I think the, the analogy I heard before was like, you go to jail for a small crime and now you come out as a hardened criminal because you learned all these other, you know, criminal behaviors.
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B
Exactly. So you think you're like punishing them. They come out like being better individuals and you've only surrounded them with other people who display the same behaviors and they're only modeling each other, like copying each other others behaviors over time and it just gets worse.
- [34:11]
A
I know that, you know, social skills and friendships for adults, especially with ADHD and different neurodivergence, is really, really hard. What I'd like to do is take a quick break and when we come back, I'll just kind of go back and forth with you a little bit about like, ideas on things that might be helpful for helping adults with ADHD address some of the social skill related challenges that a lot of us experience. So we will be right back. Hey there, ADHD rewired listeners. If you are someone who finds value in our podcast, I have a request for you today. If this podcast has been a helpful part of your ADHD journey, especially if you've been listening for a year or more, I'm asking you to consider supporting me on Patreon. Your support really is vital in keeping this show running right now. As I've shared on recent episodes, I've been running ADHD rewired without any administrative support or a podcast editor for several months now. And without your support, I may need to cut back maybe to every other week or maybe even more infrequently. So by becoming a patron, you're not only going to help me continue creating these episodes weekly, you're also going to make it possible for me to hire a new editor. And that means I'll be able to get back to offering those things, like those ad free episodes with all the ads at the end for our $5 a month patrons and for you $25 a month patrons, you can join me for a monthly coaching call that we hold on the fourth Tuesday of every month. It really is a great way to get real time support and connect with our incredible community. Now, I know that there are so many of you who do count on this podcast for insights, for strategies and support. Now I really am counting on you. Your contribution, no matter the size, is going to help me continue to bring you the content that that you love and depend on. You know, we've been podcasting now for over 10 years and we've experienced a lot of growth during that time. But over this last year or so, things have been more of a struggle and the revenue is not flowing the way it once did. So if you've been meaning to support us and you're fortunate enough to be in a financial position that you can support us financially, I could really use your support right now more than ever. Head on over to ADHD Rewired.com Patreon and become a patron today. Your support really can make all the difference in me continuing to create and produce these episodes each week. You know, and a big part of why I believe so strongly in the power of community, it's because we're there for each other, to help each other up when we fall. Well, this year I've slipped a bit and I'm asking you as listeners of this podcast, if this podcast has really, truly helped you and you've been listening to this for a while, I could use your help become a patron today. Go to ADHD Rewired.com Patreon thank you so much for being a part of ADHD Rewired community. Together we can keep thriving and helping each other on this journey. And just know that I so do genuinely appreciate and value all of you and your support. Thanks. Hey, do you guys have to do that? Is just really boring but also kind of important. Is it important? Well, come co work with ADHD Rewired. Go to adult studyhall.com to join ADHD Rewired's virtual and affordable co working community. We have facilitated sessions nearly every day for things like writing, cleaning, creating, working on job search and career stuff and so much more. And we have our 24, 7 quiet co working room which is always open. It's only 1999amonth. And you are free to try it for the first week. Absolutely free. Go to adult studyhall.com it's ADHD Rewired's very own co working community. That's adult study hall dot com. All right, we are back. All right. So, you know, I think it's. There's this idea that with adults that I think it's. There's a lot of stigma or shame just around the idea of saying it's hard to make friends as adults or adults saying that like they don't have many friends. And I think it's a really common experience for adults with adhd. What do you think needs to happen to help adults with friendship type skills and those relationships? Because even just as a typical adult, there was actually, there was a couple years ago a episode of this American Life all about how hard it is to actually make friends as an adult, which was really, really validating because it's like, you know, we think about when we're kids, like we are constantly surrounded by people our own age, right? And like, you know, the point of school for a lot of kids is to be with other kids. Like the academics are just what they have to do there, right. For adults it's so much harder. How do you think adults need to approach making friends?
- [39:50]
B
Yeah, so I think the most basic place to start because this is true. And I used to study friendship actually for many years. I love that subject. It's just so fascinating for kids and for adults, friendship is often fueled by similarity. So you need to figure out first of all, like, what do you like genuinely, like, what are you interested in? And I do this with teens too in school because even though they're in school, maybe they're just not finding the right group. So you need to ask yourself, you know, what are your passions? Identify those and then find something in that area. So for a teen it might be a club. For an adult it could be something to do on the weekends, like going to a yoga class or like a dance class or an art class. You know, looking for extracurricular activities as an adult where you can meet people with similar interests or think about an area where you have, you know, common ground with someone. Like, for example, if you're a mom and you take your kids to extracurricular activities, don't do what I do and leave and then come back, you know, sit there and talk to the parents and you may make friends that way.
- [41:11]
A
What about finding that? The shared interest, the maybe the meetups, the, you know, the different things like that. The clubs, the classes. But then there's the actual. Okay, so now I'm with these people. I'm going to these things. Now how do I, like, maintain these relationships? Especially when, for so many of us with adhd, out of sight is out of mind. Like, we'll think about that person next time we see them. But, like, between times seeing them, that person, we forgot they existed.
- [41:39]
B
Yeah. So, Eric, I'm about to say a bad word on your podcast with a P. Oh, planner.
- [41:49]
A
Say more.
- [41:50]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. So, planner. Like, for example, just yesterday, I messaged someone asking, you know, oh, let's schedule a play date, but it's my friend, too. And then I had my planner in front of me, so she said, oh, does this day work? Sure. Yeah, this day works. I wrote it down. Then a separate friend, I asked her, when are you moving to your house? Oh, it's on this day. And then I wrote, send a basket.
- [42:16]
A
Nice.
- [42:17]
B
Otherwise you're not going to remember. Like, you need to plan your social life in the same way that you plan your professional life.
- [42:26]
A
Do you have any strategies for remembering people's names when you meet people? Because, you know. Okay, me neither. Sorry, everyone. I just think that the part of my brain that is responsible for names, either. Either it just wasn't included in my brain, or it just is really. Like, I just. I just got a defective model because it is literally someone will tell me, and in two seconds I've forgotten it. I truly view it as my, like, biggest social liability of, like, yeah, you know, I'm around people and, like, I get to know these people, but I can't remember their names. So how do I go up to them and try to, like, make plans with someone who I've been talking to for weeks, maybe months. I just have no idea what their name is, and it's so embarrassing.
- [43:07]
B
Yeah, I actually made an Instagram reel about that where I talk about one experience I had in college was actually hilarious because this has just been an ongoing issue for me, but basically, like, they're, you know, freshman year, there were these two boys who sat in front of me, in front of me in a lecture hall, and. And they remembered my name. It just, like, clicked. And so for the rest of the semester, they would just say, oh, hey, Gilly. And I would be like, hey. Because I forgot their names. And it was so annoying because I kept running into them until finally the last day of class, I looked over one of their shoulders to look at the Scantron because he had to write his name there and he wrote Richard. And I was just like, rich. Who do I call him? I still didn't call him anything.
- [44:00]
A
Oh, my God. I. That's amazing. That's so, so relatable. Did he help you get any correct answers with the money you're looking over on that scandal?
- [44:07]
B
I never found out.
- [44:11]
A
Oh, my God. One of the things that I try to do is if I'm getting someone's like, phone number, I'll like have them text me right there and I'll have them take a selfie when they're sending it to me so I can put it as their contact, like right there. Because otherwise I'm like, I'll have this, this brief message on my phone. I'm like, I have no idea who this person is. Right. So it's. And people, when I've done that before, they're like, oh, that's a great idea. I should do that. And this is people even without adhd. So it's like, these are the kinds of things that I think that are great for probably everyone, but I think that it's people like us who really need these kinds of strategies to do these kinds of things.
- [44:51]
B
Eric, you're like the identification person at the airport. Okay, now pause. Take a picture of the person. I'm going to leave this for later for reference.
- [45:03]
A
Yes. Oh, man. Let's see what else, what haven't we covered that you wanted to talk about? We have a few minutes left still.
- [45:16]
B
Okay, so I guess basically the, the take home message for me in terms of hormones and everything else we discussed on social skills is that, you know, there are going to be professionals who, you see, you know, who might say that they can treat adhd, but they probably don't know, or, you know, they may not know, like, the nuances that go into all of these different conditions and how they connect. And the reason for that is because there are so many different specialties involved in understanding just people's symptoms. Like there's neurology, there's psychiatry, then, you know, there's psychology. And you're, you know, your primary care doctor, which is usually the first person you go to. But there's so little training for them on adhd. So it's really important for you to seek out these resources and, you know, listen to ADHD rewired and all of the credible resources on ADHD to learn about these topics. And then you can, you know, bring that to your doctor and Ask about it. Because initially when I went to my psychiatrist and I said, hey, you know, I have migraines and gave him my medical history. And then I said, and I think I have ADHD, basically I was told, oh, but you got a PhD.
- [47:02]
A
So that's interesting, the number of times I've heard that's so frustrating.
- [47:08]
B
Right? Yeah. So you're gonna need to advocate for yourself.
- [47:13]
A
You know, I think, too, like, when. Because that's something I hear so often, I think, for, for listeners, if, if you get that kind of response from a doctor, maybe even just responding to that and saying, well, why don't you ask me what that experience was? Like getting that, that Ph.D. or getting that master's degree or whatever it is. Because it's, it's, you know, still the gold standard for diagnosis really is in that clinical interview and the stories. It's. Yes, the writing scales are part of that, but, like, the, the nuances that we hear in the stories, that's so important to understand.
- [47:46]
B
Absolutely. And the other thing to note, too, is that there's so much shame involved in having ADHD and having ADHD symptoms. Like, there are a lot of things that people won't voluntarily share with their providers. Like, oh, yeah, I'm a horrible driver, or, oh, my spending habits, they're awful. You know, like, it's not something you're just going to be like, here you go. First, because a lot of people don't know that that's related to adhd. And second, because maybe you carry a lot of shame related to it. The other thing is, you know, I know a lot of things just didn't come to mind because I'm forgetful. So, like, when I was put on the spot and I felt like I was being evaluated, I just didn't think to mention a lot of things, like, hey, I don't sleep.
- [48:33]
A
That, that whole notion of when the doctor asks how you've been or therapist how you've been, you know, we're like, our timeframe was like, I don't know, the last some hour to 24 hours maybe, like. So I think it's really helpful to, to if you're in therapy or you have a psychiatrist to take notes and bring those notes in in between sessions. It's. It's so helpful because that's going to help you help your, your provider help you.
- [49:00]
B
Yes, it's nice in theory.
- [49:02]
A
So before we let you go, you are also writing a book on emotional dysregulation. Do you want to just briefly talk about that and Then where people can reach you.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah. So I'm writing a book on emotion dysregulation in women as a part of adhd. The title right now is Allow me to interrupt. Nice, right? Because I'd rather be an interrupter than stay silent. But yeah, it's all about just, you know, this, you know, this part of adhd, the unspoken part. But then also, you know, how that, how over time this has unfolded for me and what I've realized as a woman with adhd, that should come out in a while from now. But, you know, I got a book deal. Thank God.
- [49:57]
A
Congratulations.
- [49:59]
B
Thank you. Yeah, it's definitely going to be published. And you can find more information about my book and about me on my website, drgillicon.com or through my Instagram page. And my handle is Dr. Gillikon and.
- [50:15]
A
We will link all of that in the show notes for this episode. Dr. Gillikon, thank you so much for spending this time with us and, and sharing everything that you have. We really appreciate it.
- [50:27]
B
Of course. Eric, thank you so much for having me on your show.
- [50:29]
A
It's been a pleasure. All right, everyone, thank you so much for listening. While this was recorded way back in the beginning of March, I just checked with Gilly and her book should be out sometime in 2026. So if you want to find out when that book comes out, go to her website or follow her on Instagram. Rgily Kahn. That's G I L Y K A H N And since you're still listening, if you haven't left a review yet for the podcast on Apple podcasts or Spotify or any app that cups reviews, would you mind taking a moment and share with us what you think? Those reviews also help other people find this show and I don't get tired of reading those nice reviews. If you have any constructive criticism for me, send me an email, friends, and also share it on social or text it to a friend. Those are also great ways for sharing the show. Anyways, I hope your summer has been off to a good start. And if you are in the U.S. i hope you all have a fun and safe Fourth of July weekend. We'll catch you next time.