C (3:09)

Thank you so much. Happy to be here, Eric. Appreciate it.

B (3:12)

So let's. Let's start off by just defining some things. What is a behavioral addiction?

C (3:18)

Yeah, it's a good question. So behavioral addiction, you know, when we talk about addiction, a word that gets thrown around a lot, it's defined by a couple of things. So the first one is mood changes. So if we look at, let's say, gaming addiction or gaming disorder, so someone is happy when they're playing and they're irritable when they're not. There's also withdrawal symptoms. That one, of course, is behaviors, Right? It's very different than with a substance, but with behaviors, usually you'll see something like anxiety, anger, again, irritability, depression. People just feel like, hey, I don't know what to do with myself, basically. There's also typically conflict around the behavior. Parents with a partner, a teacher, friends, et cetera. And then something known as salience. And salience, basically, is that the activity has become the most important thing in their life. So it's prioritized over everything else, including even things like hygiene, eating, sleeping, things like that. Typically, again, with addiction, we see a lot of isolation, and there's really no magic number for how many hours a day you play or whatever the behavior is. It's more about if those other factors are hit.

B (4:38)

Do you think that it's. For most adults, when it's problematic, they know it, or do you think that there's this element of, like, yeah, you know, maybe I'm on a little bit too long, but, like, not really realizing how. How much it's impacting them?

C (4:57)

Yeah, it's a good question. The level of insight definitely depends, of course, on the person. But from what I've seen, typically adults, you know, they have a pretty good idea, right? Like, they've been told by, you know, maybe their spouse any number of times, hey, like, I'm done with this. I need you to stop, right? There's been enough social consequences or consequences in their job, for example, where they have a pretty good idea.

B (5:28)

So what got you into this work?

C (5:31)

I was working as a behavior specialist. So basically I was going into homes, schools, and doing behavior modification with kids. And I kept running into the same issue, which is if someone had anxiety or depression or something. There were a million specialists that we could refer to. But when it came to something like, you know, gaming addiction. People had no idea how to treat it. You know, people were going. Parents were going to, you know, four, five, six different therapists, and it wasn't working out. And the more research I did, the more I realized that no one was really addressing it, at least in the Bay Area. And thus kind of began my quest for. For knowledge.

B (6:15)

Is this anything that you've ever struggled with?

C (6:20)

No, I am in recovery, but that, for me, it's. It was more substance use since 2010. But with gaming, I've always been into gaming. It's always been something I've really found just like, very rewarding and interesting. But for me, if I sit for too long, I just lose interest, kind of regardless of what it is.

B (6:43)

So do you think that your experience in recovery informs some of the work or the interest in you doing this?

C (6:52)

Yeah, absolutely. I don't know how many times a week I end up doing some quote from the recovery community, but it just honestly applies to so many aspects of life that, yeah, I definitely call on it quite a bit. There's always good quotes like this too. Shall pass. Easy does it. Progress, not perfection. There's the serenity prayer, which is a great one for kind of honestly, any frustrating situation. Yeah. So definitely call upon it quite a bit.

B (7:28)

So what is game transfer function phenomena? What is that?

C (7:34)

Yeah, it's a really interesting sensory phenomena that happens when someone. I'll give you an example. So if someone is, let's say, playing a game, and every time their character gets into a battle, it plays the same battle music over and over and over again. And that person plays, let's say, you know, five hours in a row, they shut it off, they get into bed and they close their eyes and then they hear this faint sound. They realize it's the battle music. And they go over and they check their computer and it's off. Oh, my gosh. What is going on? And what they're experiencing is game transfer phenomena. And so basically, the brain gets confused. And this is something also that happens a lot with nurses, Right. Because they're hearing the same, you know, EKG machine, right. The beep, beep, beep. And that often will follow them even when they leave work can also manifest as behaviors. So I've seen it in teens where someone, you know, like, they open their locker and they have one piece of candy in there and take it out and eat it, and then they close it and open it again, expecting it to respawn, like in a game, expecting it to be regenerated I'm gonna start with adults.

B (8:54)

So what does intervention look like when an adult realizes that, you know what this is, you know, whether it's these games or social media or, you know, even like online gambling. What do interventions look like?

C (9:11)

Yeah. So with adults, and just as with teens, a lot of the interventions are similar. So something we might do is, again, in the beginning, we're really trying to get a high level of insight and awareness. So one thing I like to do is I'll have people draw a pie chart, say, okay, divide this up into different categories of where your time goes. So all the waking hours in a given day. Okay, so 30% of this is work, 20% of this is household chores, so on and so forth. And obviously, of course, the behavior they're struggling with will probably be a very large chunk. And then I'll have them flip the paper over, do the same thing. But what they ideally want that to look like. And so looking at that discrepancy is often really important. And that kind of goes into a larger intervention called motivational interviewing, where we'll examine their core values. And so I'll have them take a questionnaire and then we'll look at the discrepancy between their core values and their actions. And highlighting that often is a really good way to bring that insight. And it's completely non judgmental. So I'm not saying, well, hey, you said family was important to you and yet you just blew off your kid's soccer game to go gamble. Of course. Right. I wouldn't never say anything like that. But honestly, that's powerful enough for them to kind of draw those conclusions.

B (10:43)

So what kind of questions do you ask then, in the style of motivational interviewing?

C (10:49)

Yeah, so I'll give them that assessment. We'll look at their values and say, wow, so your top 10 values, I noticed that, let's say independence was a big one. I heard you mention actually earlier that you've recently had to move back in with your parents. It's got to be hard, right, if, you know, independence is so important for you. And then they can kind of speak to that. And so it's just kind of drawing those basic connections with some empathy and active listening. And honestly, they usually end up, you know, just kind of having a. A lot of emotional. Emotional reaction happen because often by the time someone gets to me, they've been struggling for a really long time. And so finally just having the kind of damn burst and that catharsis happen. Yeah. Is pretty common and of course, pretty powerful.

B (11:50)

How often do you take more of a harm reduction approach? And for listeners who don't know, harm reduction is not complete abstinence, but it's that minimizing of the impact that a certain behavior may have. So how do you approach that?

C (12:09)

It's a great question because of course, if someone's in recovery from a substance use disorder, you just don't use it again. With something like gaming or food or sex or any number of things that people can get addicted to. It's pretty hard to do that. You can't just say, I'll never use my phone again, for example. So harm reduction, of course, is something that you kind of have to do, and often it's interesting. I think the best way to summarize the answer is since there's only so many hours in a day, if someone's day is filled with work, socializing, exercise, cooking, a hobby they like, by the time all that's done, there's not that much time left for gaming or gambling. So depending on what the behavior is, because it will definitely depend. But if it's something like gaming, typically filling the life up with other positive activities can naturally lead to a harm reduction. And then from there we can kind of tweak it, depending on how much of an impact it's having. So sometimes for some people that's enough. That's really all they needed. It's just some more balance.

B (13:34)

What are your thoughts on the way a lot of game companies will, in their marketing, will use, like, we'll save things as a feature. Highly addictive. Like, as. It's like a, like a benefit to this game and like, it drives me nuts. Like what. I'm curious as to your thoughts on this as well.

C (13:54)

Yes. For those of you who are just listening, I just put my head in my hands because. Oh my gosh, it is. Yeah, it's, it's. It's awful. It's horrific. And a lot of these companies, they, I mean, all these companies, they know what they're doing. Absolutely. A lot of them will hire psychologists, behavior specialists, who will kind of, again, kind of the dark side of my field, will teach them how to best manipulate and harness the dopamine reward process that happens in the brain. And dopamine, again, neurotransmitter, that makes us feel good. It's called the reward chemical often. And so it of course drives me insane. That's part of why I'm on this work group with Fairplay, which is a wonderful organization. They're all about advocacy and really trying to Push for legislation to curb this issue. Yeah, so definitely is maddening. And a lot of parents and adults, I would say, just generally have some sense of this. Usually when I talk to them, like, they'll. They'll know, like, yes, you know, Candy Crush. I just sunk $5,000 into it. Right. That was not my intention. Clearly, I was manipulated. But the thing with addiction, right, is that even though you have full insight, your brain is still hijacked. So. Right. You might still continue with that, even with the knowledge.

B (15:25)

So what are some. When we think about sort of like, digital hygiene and, like, good digital hygiene practices, what are some things that may be applicable for all neurodivergent brains of all ages? You know, like amount of time or the type of activities you're doing, things like that. Any. Any insights on that?

C (15:46)

There's a couple of things. So one is, there's a host of different apps and programs and stuff like that you can get that are really designed to help people find that balance in moderation and, you know, kind of curb more problematic use. And I won't name one in particular because, again, there's a lot. There's a lot of great ones. You can Google it. There's a ton that'll come up, but that's kind of one set of interventions. Another thing that tends to help is we'll make a list of, okay, tell me all the things you do on your computer, anything that you do that's not for work. And so someone will say, okay, well, I like to read the news, I like to watch my shows, game, et cetera. And then we'll stack, rank it in order of what gives you the most satisfaction. So in part of psychotherapy called positive psychology, we look at something called satisfaction with life. And that's a very common scale that we'll use. And so that's kind of the idea of that intervention is to see, all right, what is this adding to your life? How much joy does it bring you? And then what does it cost you? Right. So kind of a cost benefit analysis. And typically with that, we can at least start to weed things out that maybe aren't adding as much joy. And so again, the name of the game with this is really intentionality. So being very intentional with digital media use. Am I checking Reddit for the fifth time today because it's a reflex or a habit, or am I genuinely interested in, you know, learning something new?

B (17:31)

I. I have had times where, like, I. My intention was to check my email on my phone, and then I find myself literally opening Facebook and then I recognize, oops, that's not what I meant to do. I close Facebook. And then I have literally done that like multiple times in a row. Or I'm like, oh my gosh. So when I catch myself doing that, I will rearrange the apps on my phone just to like sort of that pattern interrupts so it's no longer like this quick muscle memory thing of doing that. Because like watching yourself do something like that is a little crazy. Making you know, it's like when you're aware of it, you're like, oh my God. I, I think it's email I get off of Facebook because, you know. Yeah, yeah. With you mentioned about what our intentions are and I think this is such a core part of ADHD is, you know, it's, you have good intentions. When we're looking at how do we bridge that gap between intentions and actions. Willpower is not on will call and we don't often have that ability. Like, yes, best intentions are great, but what's going to bridge that gap when you know that self regulation ability in that particular moment isn't enough to get you across that bridge. Right. So I know there's like this technology, you know, Internet blocking types of things like in my home with my, with my son. And we'll talk about this a little bit more in a, after the break. Well, like I have a lock on my pantry and devices go in there when they're not in use.

C (18:56)

Smart. Yeah.

B (18:57)

And anytime I forget to put them, it's, it's like crap. Yeah. Because it is, it's, you know, or the accountability piece, you know, with like, I don't know how it is with Androids. I know an iPhone, you had the, the screen time feature where it can actually like, it'll show you the percentage of time that you've been on each in particular app. And if there, if you have an accountability buddy that you're working with, you can take weekly screenshots and share or even daily screenshots and share. Hey, hey.

C (19:27)

Seriously.

B (19:28)

Because I find that there's something that's so easy to do and do in a way that like a lot of addictive behaviors is often done in secrecy and then it builds shame. Right. So if you can have that person who's also trying to reduce.

C (19:42)

Yeah.

B (19:43)

The amount of time that they're on, you know, whether it's social media or playing games, you know, it's. If my son's always like, well play this game with you, I'm like, I, I don't want to play this game with you because I will want to play that game all the time. It's like Minecraft or it's like I've shared the story on the podcast before, but the first time I played Minecraft, which was about, I don't know, 12 years ago, maybe I was doing it as a therapist to better understand what my clients were playing. Right.

C (20:12)

Sure.

B (20:13)

And I think I started playing one night on my iPad at like 9:30 at night, thinking I'll play for half an hour and then go to bed. And then I look at the clock and it's three in the morning and it's like. Which reminded me of college. And I used to play this game called Return to Castle Wolfenstein. And I would.

C (20:30)

Oh my God.

B (20:30)

I would go to bed when the. I started hearing birds chirping like. And so like, I. I love video games and I am not someone who is good at regulating my game time on. On screen. So it's like I just kind of tend to avoid. Because that works better for me because it's right. You know, it's such an. It's. It's digital dopamine, but it's like it is mainlining it and it doesn't give our brain a ch. To. To regulate, which is so frustrating.

C (20:57)

Absolutely. Because we, we like to think of ourselves as in control of our destinies and, and of course our behavior. And. And so having something like that that, you know, certainly kind of takes that away. Yeah. Is. Is definitely maddening. This can be scary. And I think that the shame piece is really critical. And I'm so glad you mentioned that because that, you know, often, of course is characterized not just with addiction, but really a lot of know, mental health struggles that people have. There's typically a lot of shame. And having an accountability buddy, just like you said, you know, as social creatures. Right. Having that sort of mutual support can be huge. And in fact, there's a old saying that says the opposite of addiction is connection. And I think that is just right that, that one always kind of takes the cake for me is, you know, words of wisdom go. Because it's so true. You know, it's. It's hard to be the only person who is using when you're surrounded by people that are in recovery. Again, whether it's a substance or behavior. So just naturally surrounding yourself with those sorts of people. Right. Who maybe are more motivated to moderate their electronic use, that alone can be pretty, Pretty impactful.

B (22:22)

You said that the opposite of addiction is connection. And when we come back, I want you to answer this question. And that's what do we do, especially with our, for our parents out there, when their kids are kind of, you know, they are addicted to these games, but their kids are saying, well, this is the way I get my social connection is through these games. So, which is, I know it's a needle to thread. So when we come back from the break, let's, let's talk about that. So we will be right back.

A (22:53)

Support for this podcast comes from ADHD Rewired to intensive coaching and accountability groups and adult studyhall.com ADHD Rewired, virtual coworking community. If you are new to ADHD Rewired, I want to welcome you. And if you are not new, thank you for being on this journey with me. You know, back in 2014, just a few months after I launched this podcast, I had this crazy idea to create an online ADHD coaching group that had frequent accountability checks throughout the week. And I created this because after showing up at my own therapist's office week after week, about 20 minutes early, I would arrive just so I could do the homework, the therapy homework that I was supposed to be doing all week. I was frustrated that I wasn't actually doing the work that I actually wanted to be doing, because, let's face it, sometimes a week is forever when you have adhd. And I wanted something that could help me be accountable to my own growth, work several times a week. And so I went to the Google machine and to my surprise, there was nothing out there. And so I decided to create the very thing that I was wanting for myself. And so in November 2014, I launched the pilot season of our coaching and accountability groups. And so much has changed since that first coaching season. The program itself is entirely different from what it first was. And season after season and year after year, we kept making this program better and better. And to the best of my knowledge, there was nobody else doing online group coaching for adhd. And I still think to this day, nobody has a program that is as intense as ours. Or we meet three times a week for 10 weeks, with an additional two meetings a week with an accountability team during weeks three through 10. It sometimes boggles my mind that we've now have had over 1200 people go through our coaching groups, and we have a very active alumni membership community with hundreds of our alumni. Just like this program is designed to push you out of your comfort zone, to help you make real meaningful changes in your life, these last 10 years have done the same for me. These last 10 years have taught me so many valuable lessons in leadership and management and community building and creating systems. During this time I've also made some amazing friends. And during this time I've also lost some friends. And as many of you who have been listening for a while know that after the world opened back up post pandemic and it started to get harder and harder to fill our groups where during the peak of the pandemic we were running five sections of our coaching groups per season with a wait list. And this summer while we were trying to fill three groups, we ended up with only enough people enrolled for two groups. So as we got near the end of the start of group, I made the decision to move people who enrolled into my section into our other coaches section and I decided for the very first time in 10 years and 37 seasons that I would not be running a group of my own. And I just want to thank coaches Brian Antler and Kristen Martz who have been so supportive and committed to serving our community. A few months ago I released an episode called when what Was Working Stops Working. And with the recent flood of new 80 issue podcasts and new ADHD coaches, I decided to take this summer and spend time reflecting, maybe retooling or maybe figuring out another way to offer our coaching groups. Now I love that I have gotten to do this work over the last 10 years and they wish that I could keep doing it just as it is because honestly, there has been nothing better than being a part of people's growth journeys where they are better understanding their ADHD and how to work with it. But I know that with current market conditions and with the explosion of new ADHD podcasts, I'm just not reaching the same number of people as I once did. So that being said, I'm not going anywhere, but I am taking some time to reflect and hopefully innovate. In the meantime, I am opening my calendar to some one on one coaching clients and I've reopened my client clinical practice for one on one work for those who reside in Illinois. So you do have to be in Illinois if you're interested in working with me as your therapist and you can inquire about both of those options at my website@adhd rewired.com just click on services. So this fall, this fall's coaching group, I am going to be leading just one group starting the week of October 7th. But before I finalize any offering, I would really love to get your feedback and suggestions. So I created a survey that I am asking listeners who might be looking for coaching services to fill out. So questions include things like, if I created a section of our coaching group for people identifying with the following demographics, how interested would you be? And then I have the options that include lgbt, bisexual men, entrepreneurs, mental health therapists, college or grad students 65 and older, Audi HD, men only and women only.

B (28:28)

That's just one of the questions that I have on there.

A (28:30)

There's a few questions about the times that we offer groups. There's another about interest in a mastermind group. And the entire survey will probably take you only about five minutes. Plus, if you complete the whole survey, you will be entered to win a $25 gift card to Amazon. The deadline to complete this is August 31, 2024, unless we've received less than 50 submissions by that time, in which case we'll extend it another month or until we receive 50 unique submissions. This is really important to me because I really want to get in a little bit of a broader reach of feedback. So go ahead and take the survey. Go to ADHD Rewired.com survey. That's ADHD Rewired.com survey. And you can also add your name to our fall interest list@coaching Rewired.com in full disclosure, as I am recording this, that interest list is not yet quite up on the website. But I am putting it out there because there is nothing that gets me to activate my brain better than throwing something out there knowing people are going to be coming. Because, hey, isn't that why we all have company over as motivation to clean up our homes?

B (29:49)

So I'm using that approach.

A (29:51)

So coaching Rewired.com to get your name on our interest list for the coaching groups. But what I would love is your feedback by completing the survey@adhd rewired.com survey. All right, I know that this was a little bit longer for an ad, and so I'm not going to have a second ad break. This is it. So enjoy the rest of today's episode.

B (30:15)

We are back. So the social connection of gaming, especially with kids, neurodivergent kids especially. And you know, I can. My son is an example, right? Like, he like. And it's kind of amazing that he is aware that he has a hard time, that he calls it an addiction and he asks for help. Like, he's like, that you left the TV remote unlocked. Like, he was, like, upset about that. I was like, dude, I'm sorry. Like, I. Yes. So it's amazing. And it's because he wants it so to be on these screens all the time. And yet he realizes that he gets really dysregulated and gets irritable and cranky, and it's all he wants to do if he's been on it for too long, you know. So I'm always trying to give him kudos for just the fact that he recognizes it and he's asking for that support.

C (31:12)

I mean, that's amazing. Again, just hearing you describe that, that is incredible because it demonstrates that he has not just that awareness and insight, but that just from like a values and moral perspective, he's believing that this is a collaborative process. Right. That the two of you are working together to help him moderate his use. And that is, again, hands down, in my opinion, the most effective approach when it comes to this, which is, you know, trying to not infantilize, but also to not pathologize, to not treat your kid as if there's something wrong with them or they're broken, of course. So to come at it as, hey, this is an issue. We recognize this is an issue, and together we're going to work on it. And again, progress, not perfection. So I think, just in terms of that question that you had asked when looking at the social impacts of, in this case, gaming, but really any digital media use, everyone's on Discord. And even when they're not gaming, they're still on Discord, which I think says something. So, of course, for a teenager in particular, it's everything, their social identity. So it doesn't mean that just because they're struggling with their gaming, you make them uninstall Discord. It doesn't mean even necessarily you make them uninstall their games. But instead of getting into that kind of what I call like a cold war, where you install a restricting program and then they find a way around it, so then you take away the computer. Right. You know what I mean? So rather than getting into that, which is awful for everyone involved, sitting down with them and saying, hey, we see this as an issue, we hope you do too. If you don't, that's okay, but at the very least, you want to find a way to help you learn how to moderate it instead of approaching it with shame. Right? Which is what I call basically that hating the game can equal hating the player. So if a parent is saying, this game is terrible, it's rotting your mind, you're addicted. Even though they're talking about the game, often the teenager or young adult may feel like they're talking about them because it's a part of their core identity. So again, trying to approach it collaboratively and also setting up some sort of system, whatever that looks like. So some people do really well with incentives and rewards, right? That's kind of a classic example. Others tend to do better when it's a consequence. So, hey, as a consequence of me doing well in school this week, I got extra game time. Of course, as they get older, that feels more patronizing.

B (34:15)

And Alex is definitely using the term consequence as a behaviorist, because as a behaviorist, we think of consequences. The result of. I think a lot of people think of the term consequence as a punishment, which is not the same thing. I just wanted to kind of clarify that.

C (34:29)

Yes, yeah, yeah, that. That's a very good point. And so exactly. Just as you said, there's positive and negative consequences and that's life, right? If you speed, you can get a ticket. So that's a common example I like to give. But again, in terms of. Because this also speaks to the need for trust. So how do I trust that my kid is going to just talk to their friends online and not then get on a game because their friends then decide to do it?

B (35:01)

Well, with my son, I trust that his intention is to do the thing he said to do. But he left YouTube open and so he, you know, he turns on his iPad and now he's watching YouTube, like, and it just takes that one stimuli in two seconds. And now he forgot what his intention was.

C (35:19)

And that's it, right? It's, it's that, that fast, that, that quick. And so that's why it's something at least that I recommend is to trust but verify. So, okay, you're telling me that you're just going to talk to your friends and not game. I trust that that's what you're intending to do, just as you said. But I'm going to come in and check on you in 15 minutes. And that way, right, if they are indeed gaming, then the parent can say, look, I told you what was required. You didn't listen, right? So you broke the rules, you broke the agreement. And you and I in the past, and this is the important part, actually had agreed what the consequences would be. So again, that collaborative nature. So I guess back up for a moment sitting down with the kid or teen or young adult and saying, hey, let's come up with some shared agreements. And part of that is going to be limitations of some sort. And also what happens if these agreements are broken? And that way, Right, again, the teen ideally is the one that comes up with the consequence, the negative consequence in.

B (36:33)

The first Place I look at screen time for my son. Not all screen time being created equally, right. Like to me, like the sort of low brow YouTube stuff that he loves, like these teen gamers who are like playing games and talking about it and just being obnoxious and you know, and I'm sure thought that was funny when I was my son's age too. I don't know. It's mindless kind of entertainment. All right. I mean, we all have our growth.

C (37:04)

It's like candy, right?

B (37:05)

So for him, we do this thing called, we call it jump powered tv. So we have like a trampoline in our family room and if he wants to watch those videos, he has to be jumping on a trampoline.

C (37:19)

Wow. Right?

B (37:20)

Otherwise I'm like, if he wants to be on the screen, like you can create, you can communicate, you can learn, but like just watching these or even play, like, I'm not going to complain. It's, it's the, the passive watching of these videos that aren't adding. Like they're not teaching them anything. They're not, they're just like. And often the jokes are inappropriate and you know, and you know, my son's also on the spectrum. So it's like he doesn't always get, it's funny for a video, but in real life you won't, you don't do that.

C (37:51)

Oh, sure, right.

B (37:53)

And like he often needs to be explained these kinds of things and he wants to have like his own YouTube channel and have all his followers. And I'm like, buddy, it's great that you like this idea, but what could we do to be helpful to people versus just trying to be famous? Right? Because it's, you know, I think this is a common thing because of his generation that he, they all just want to be famous. I don't think they realize how much work is actually involved in doing that.

C (38:21)

No. And just, you know, I think just as you were saying, that's something I love doing where I get, let's say, referred someone and they say, hey, I know you treat digital addiction, but honestly for me, I'm doing this also because I want to be a streamer. And so I'm recording content. And they're so used to usually adults in their lives shooting them down and saying, no, you know, no, you're not allowed to do it. No, I'm not going to buy you $500 worth of recording equipment. Right. Or software. And so what I love to do in those situations is say, great, let's do it, let's get you Set up. You know, I'm sure your folks aren't going to, you know, shell out a lot of money, but, you know, we can find some free stuff. And so playing what I call playing the tape forward, which obviously dates me because we don't use tapes anymore, but playing that tape forward and saying, okay, great, let's see what it involves. And 100% of the time, again, not 99, not 80, 100% of the time, they will find that at some point, okay, this is not what I imagined and this is not what I want. But that process of I'm going to take something that's interesting to me, I'm going to follow through on it and take it all the way to the end and learn from that experience, I think is just invaluable. And that's often something people I see struggle with, which is kind of an adjacent idea. But it's the idea of sitting in discomfort and embracing it as part of growth and avoiding that discomfort, I think is why any of us, you know, end up getting kind of lost in digital media.

B (40:09)

What are your thoughts on digital detox?

C (40:13)

I think it has a place like, you know, there's some folks I know that lead, like digital retreats and stuff like that. I don't think. I think like many versions of detox, you know, there's like, cleanses. People do all that kind of stuff. I think it's very short acting and at least from what I've seen, tends to not really lead to permanent behavior change. But it's kind of this idea of, hey, I want. I've been struggling with this for a long time. I want to see it resolved, but I want it to be resolved now. So I'm going to do something extreme. And usually as humans, we don't respond very well to extreme measures like that. They tend not to be very effective. So I'm not against it, but I also think it's maybe not as impactful as some people want it to be.

B (41:10)

Are there? And I know every, every person's situation will be different, but are there guidelines for how much time to allow in a given period for just like free time on screen time?

C (41:24)

Yeah, that's where I would give a plug for the Screen Time Action Network. They have a treasure trove of great resources for parents. Everything from, you know, guides on exactly this. So they. They even. There's, like, charts, I'd say, all right, so for this age, this kind of media, for this amount of time. But as you said, there's no magic number. Typically, what I Like, to do is say, okay, let's again, use that pie chart, right? How much time in a day? So if you weren't gaming or watching YouTube, how much free time do you actually have out of that free time? What percentage Collaboratively, let's come up with a percentage that feels right for screen time. And as you said, not all screen time is created equal, and that's very, very much backed up by the evidence. So that's part of why there really isn't a magic number.

B (42:25)

And what about when the parent has the same issue as the kid, which I'm sure you probably see?

C (42:34)

Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. There's some great tools for that one. And also on Screen Time Action Network, actually, one of which is called the Family Media Plan, and that's a favorite of mine, because, again, it's a collaborative nature, and it's saying, hey, we as your parents, also see this as something that we struggle with. So as a family, let's come up with some ground rules, right? You know, the classic one is no screens during dinner, but also, you know, having positive family time. So one thing I always encourage is, hey, on the weekends, one activity doesn't have to be very long, but just pick something that you're gonna do at the same time, roughly at. On the same day every week. And that way, it often will lead to, naturally, more things to happen. So, for example, all right, we're going to play a game of Uno, right? Game of Uno doesn't last very long, but after that. Oh, yeah, now we got to take the dog for a walk. All right, well, I'll go for a walk. All right, well, now we're hungry. All right, let's go out to lunch. And so suddenly, this has morphed naturally into its own sort of family ritual and tradition that involves everyone together without their screens.

B (44:03)

I'm just thinking about the different, like, dynamics with stuff like that. So true confessions here. Okay, so for a long time, I was, like, an absolutist. We do not watch TV during dinner. Like, we. This is time to practice social engagement. And I. I don't know if it was, like, part that I was maybe just, like, stressed, and I'm like, all right. I just. I. Whatever. What my son and I have been doing over the last, I don't know, two or three months, and we don't do it every day for dinner, but we have been doing it is we will watch the show Young Sheldon together and doing it during dinner. And I'm telling you, it has sparked so many amazing conversations, like When I'm doing this, I'm like, this can't be bad. Like, this feels good. Like, right. Like we're actually, we are both actually enjoying it.

C (44:58)

We're.

B (44:58)

It's creating and we're having conversations about it. We're regularly pausing and talking about it.

C (45:03)

Exactly.

B (45:04)

Right. And it's awesome because he's like, oh, man, this is so relatable. My son will say, of course, because he's kind of like a young children with a little bit like lower work effort, you know, but yeah, I mean, he's, he's a quirky, kind of brilliant kid and.

C (45:21)

Yeah.

B (45:22)

So what do you think about that?

C (45:25)

That sounds great. Because, you know, again, like, like he, like we were saying, you know, it's not all created equal. And oftentimes I think that sanity check of that, exactly what you just described, that process, you know, of checking in with yourself, of like, wait, this feels wrong, but it also seems like it's working. So hey, you know, trust your gut, right? If, if that works, then awesome.

B (45:53)

It's because, you know, because I grew up with the whole idea of like, you shouldn't have dinner in front of the tv. Like, it's, that's, you know, that's going to be the breakdown of society. I'm like, yeah, I think there's other reasons that caused the breakdown of society. I'm not sure if that was it, just a few. But it is interesting too because like, we'll, we'll watch like two to three episodes and typically like before the, we watch the final episode for the evening, say, all right, like he wants to watch another one. Great. Motivation is high. You got to do the dishes and go put your laundry away. And then, and then we'll be. When you're done, we can watch that last episode.

C (46:25)

There you go.

B (46:26)

All right, so it's. I feel better getting it off my chest now.

A (46:32)

Good.

C (46:33)

Glad we could do that.

B (46:35)

We're coming close to time here. Any other thoughts that you want to share that we haven't kind of hit on around this?

C (46:44)

Yeah. I think one thing I would say is that when it comes to how to recognize what is addiction versus what isn't, Because I can't tell you how many times I talk to parents and they say, you know, my kid's so addicted. Or I talk to an adult and they say, oh, yeah, I'm totally addicted. And that word gets thrown around a lot and obviously carries quite a bit of stigma. And so I really encourage parents to, for one, try not to use that word unless obviously it's been diagnosed and talked about and it feels right to their. Their person, whoever that is. But also, if you're noticing that it's having a significantly negative effect on more than one part of their lives, that's really the time to seek help. So if you're seeing that they're not socializing in person anymore and they quit the basketball team and they seem to be using all that extra time to game, that might be the right time to seek help. If it's like, hey, they seem to only want a game, but they follow all the rules, they follow the limits, they get good grades, they're doing everything else they need to, then maybe they're just really into gaming. That's okay. You don't say someone who watches a lot of soccer and plays it and lives and breathes it. You don't say they're addicted to it.

B (48:20)

It is funny how the culture, we can have this intense interest around all these other things and we put pathologize it, but if it's sports, like, there's no pathology there. It's just sports. And it's. It is kind of. It's. There's definitely this double standard.

C (48:35)

Definitely. Yeah. And. And so again, the, the key takeaway there is that when we talk about addiction, again, it's having a significantly negative effect in what we call multiple domains of life. So that's really the, the key kind of takeaway there.

B (48:56)

Alex Beige, thank you so much for spending time with us. We have a website or anything you want to share as far as how people can reach you.

C (49:04)

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, so my website is reset from tech, all one word. And people can reach me there. They can. My email and phone and everything are on there as well. Even if, you know, someone is not thinking that they're going to work with me, but they just want help. I always encourage people to reach out, so please don't hesitate. If I can't answer, I won't answer. Otherwise, I'm always happy to point people in the right direction and just spread the word on the need to address these issues.

B (49:44)

Alex, thank you so much.

A (49:47)

And I want to thank you for listening. And just as a quick reminder, go fill out that survey@adhd rewired.com survey for your chance to win a $25Amazon gift card and to help me kind of refine some programming that will be helpful for you. Again, thank you so much for listening. And hey, if you have not left a rating and review for this podcast, I've been asking you to do that.

B (50:17)

For about 10 years, and many of.

A (50:19)

You have, but many more of you haven't. It would be awesome if you did that, because it actually does help other people find this podcast. And you can also help other people find this podcast by sharing it in your online communities or your support groups. If you are in a if you meet with Chad or AD or any of the groups that do ADHD work, let people know about ADHD Rewired. All right, I probably won't have an episode next week, but I I'll be back in a few weeks, so enjoy. And if you are missing your ADHD Rewired Weekly fix, there are so many episodes in the archives that are all available for you right now to listen to, and we will catch you next time. Thanks.