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ADHD reWired
542 Tunnel of Focus: Monotropism, Trauma, and Thriving with ADHD and Autism with Mattia Mauree
00:53:21
In this episode of ADHD reWired, Eric Tivers is joined by Mattia Mauree, an award-winning composer, poet, and host of the AUDHD Flourishing Podcast. Mattia shares their insights into the unique challenges faced by neurodivergent individuals,...
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- [00:00]
Matia Murray
First of all, autistic people appear to be more easily traumatized. Like traumatized by like things in our nervous system have a cause a bigger reaction and therefore can more easily lead to actual trauma style reactions in the body. But then also if your parents are neurodivergent and they didn't have their needs met and they're traumatized also like who and your whole extended family is. Which is true in my case. Like how who is gonna help you.
- [00:26]
Eric Tibbers
Adhd Rewired Episode 542 Since 2014, this has been the podcast for ADHD adults who have really good intentions and a slightly wandering attention. I'm Eric Tibbers. I'm a licensed clinical social worker by training and a coach by design. I'm your host and I have adhd. ADHD Rewired is more than just a podcast. You can learn about our coaching and accountability groups, our virtual coworking community, and more, all@adhd Rewired.com we are wired for connection and you are not alone. Learn more about our offerings, including our monthly live Q&As. Get additional resources for every episode, including links to any resources we mention on today's show. You can support us on Patreon, sign up for our email newsletter and more, all@adhd rewired.com and if this is your first time listening, welcome. Don't forget to hit, subscribe or follow on your podcast app so you never miss an episode. We know this starting is the hardest part, so let's get started. Hey there ADHD Rewired listeners. It's been a few weeks since the last episode came out and I want to give a huge thank you to today's guest, Matia, who reached out to me and offered to edit our interview. And while I felt a little uncomfortable at first, I've been working on accepting people's help when they offer it. Do you have a hard time accepting help when someone offers it? I think it's something that a lot of us with narrow, divergent brains really do struggle with. Before we get into today's episode, I just want to give you a bit of a personal update since it's been a few weeks since you've heard from me, and if you're new, I want to welcome you to ADHD Rewired. And if you don't care about hearing aid, an update from me. Fast forward a minute or so.
- [02:16]
Don't worry, I won't take it personally.
- [02:18]
Because I won't even know. You know, a lot has changed over the last year as I've shared in recent episodes, I've been working on adjusting to these changes within the ADHD coaching landscape as well as addressing some of my own burnout. This summer, I decided to reopen my clinical practice and started doing some one on one coaching and one on one therapy. Since I'm not facilitating a group this summer. And I gotta tell you, this break has been lovely. You know, success can be a funny thing sometimes. It made me believe that I can't take breaks and I always have to be number one. I'm here to tell you that that's no way to live and it will catch up with you. So over the last few weeks, I did two weeks of summer Fish tour on my motorcycle. I did three shows in Wisconsin and then three in Indiana. And the three that I did in Indiana, I did on my own. And I gotta tell you, that time alone was super restorative to me, especially riding the back roads in Indiana on my motorcycle. I realized how much I needed that time for myself. And last week I got to take my son Gibson into Chicago for a few days to celebrate his 13th birthday. This is all to say that this time away from working on the podcast and being in group has been really restorative for me. And I'm looking forward to getting back to group this fall. So stay tuned to the break for news about our fall coaching groups so you can find out how and when you can register. But now let's get on my conversation with Matias. Welcome back to another episode of ADHD Rewired.
- [04:06]
Today's guest is Matia Murray. Matia is an award winning composer and poet and is the host of the Audi HD Flourishing podcast. They also have heads. I don't know what that is.
- [04:20]
Matia Murray
Hypermobile Ehlers Danlos syndrome.
- [04:22]
Eric Tibbers
Got it. Okay, thank you. And this is gonna be an exciting episode because we're gonna talk about a couple things that you've actually have taught me. They are passionate about living well with disabilities in a society that does not support differences. To that end, they also help other RDHD creatives and entrepreneurs who want to build a sustainable life around their interests. Matia, welcome to the podcast.
- [04:47]
Matia Murray
Thank you. I almost just said welcome back. I just, I love the, the, the brain. It's. It simply does not brain sometimes.
- [04:54]
Eric Tibbers
Well, you know, you are, you're a podcaster as well, and I was just recently on your podcast. It's always fun to be on the other side of the mic, but now you're here with me and my brain is also going, okay, brain, keep on braining. Here we go, okay, so when we talk. It was a couple months ago, I think, when we first talked and we were sort of talking about Audi HD and. And I was sharing with you, and we talked also about this on your podcast. This sort of like, weird feeling I have, like, all the signs point to that. I'm also probably rdhd. Like, it was just. The evidence just keeps sort of mounting. But yet I still also have this feeling of, well, I haven't had the official diagnosis or official evaluation, so am I allowed to sort of count myself in there? While we were talking about this, you had shared a term or thing that I had. Was not familiar with, and that is the term monotropism. Can you explain what monotropism is and sort of explain the, like, how applies to both ADHD and Audi hd?
- [05:58]
Matia Murray
Yeah. So monotropism was come up as an explanation for autism because the medical explanation for autism actually doesn't cover the experience. And usually when that happens, when the medical explanation doesn't make sense, they keep looking or keep developing, but in this case, they've just said like, nope, this is what autism is. But it doesn't actually describe everybody's experience. It definitely doesn't cover everything. So the original goal of the theory of. Or as it's from England originally, and I'm pretty sure they say monotropism. That's. I've heard it said both ways. I. And you'll probably hear me say it both ways. It's basically this idea that autistic people in particular have a narrower field of capacity for what they can focus on at once and still feel okay. That's like the kind of simplest way of putting it. So we. We tend to find ourselves in attention tunnels. And there are upsides to that. We get into flow states more easily, for example, but then we can get really distressed when we're forced to transition to a completely different mode of thinking or relating. Or. I mean, my. My most extreme example is if I've been composing all day. If I've managed to get into a flow state for four straight hours, I cannot become social.
- [07:12]
Eric Tibbers
Mm.
- [07:13]
Matia Murray
I can't. And it. It's not just a transition time thing. It's like my brain got into a certain mode and it is stuck there. And it's hard for me to be verbal at all, let alone say, go to a party. I did that one time. I like, wrote all day. And then I went to a party and I got there and I was like, what is happening? I need to go hide at the bathroom.
- [07:31]
Eric Tibbers
I'M so relating to this until I can go home. And so how, so how describe. How is this different than just hyperfocus with, with just adhd?
- [07:41]
Matia Murray
So, fun fact, in, in so far as it's been studied, there have been a handful of validation studies for like the original model of monotropism. ADHD folks are more monotropic than the average population. So it's basically ADHD folks are more monotropic than autistic folks. And then Audi HD folks are the most monotropic. Which is very, very interesting in that, you know, we might eventually be moving towards some kind of. I've heard people refer to the Audi HD spectrum and I think this is part of what they're talking about, you know, not that, you know, again, I also think autism isn't the best term because it's covering probably. It's probably covering an umbrella of a bunch of things that are being lumped together. But, you know, which, again, that's where we are right now in terms of describing it. But I think monotropism is also really lovely because people can approach that as its own thing because it's not synonymous with autism. Like, you can be somewhat monotropic and still not be autistic, but you might say, get along better with autistic people than a not at all monotropic person.
- [08:41]
Eric Tibbers
So it's. I'd be curious to see if there's any research that kind of shows, like, when. Cause I think about some of my sort of ADHD sort of challenges. And transitioning has always been one of my biggest, biggest challenges. And especially if I've been like in kind of that flow state for a while or working on one thing for a while, like my brain, it gets stuck. It literally gets stuck. It's like, I know I'm trying to shift gears, but it's just not. My brain is not cooperating.
- [09:13]
Matia Murray
Yeah. And that's, that's basically what monotropism feels like. So a lot of people, you know, if you just heard the, the idea, oh, you have a narrower set of interests, they're like, no, I'm interested in a lot of things. I like doing a lot of things. It's not that I literally want to do one thing at a time, all the time, or that I don't have multiple interests. It's that I want to be able to dive deep and go really, you know, spend. Basically spend as long in the attention tunnel as I want and then have all the transition time in the world to move on to the next thing. So for me, it's been monumental in thinking about how I schedule because I do a bunch of things, you know, as you've heard from the bio, but also I do, I do more than that. I just, I don't put everything in there. And I have to think of my life in this more like a sort of project based way where it's like, okay, I can handle this many different things at once. And then there's the admin overload for those things, which is its own whole thing, as you know. Um, but if I, for example, if I try to say, and I was doing this for a while, I was like, oh, I'll just. Because this is what everybody says to do. Oh, just get up early, you know, practice. I'll practice an instrument in the morning and then I'll meditate and then I'll, you know, it's like the daily routine thing that is for a polytropic person, the idea of doing 20 things in order in a day and that being your daily routine, that is not for a monotropic person. I need, and I do this now, I will block off an entire day for one project. And that's the only thing I'm doing that day. I might check my email, I might not.
- [10:39]
Eric Tibbers
That's, that's interesting. Cause I'm thinking about on the occasions where I might, you know, come in and work on a weekend, which I don't typically do, but it's usually because I'm coming in for one specific thing, not like all the things. And usually when I'm doing that, I feel so much more clearer and focused. When we think about hyperfocus, you know, a lot of people will think about this as sort of like the ADHD superpower of hyper focus. I'm like, well, it's a superpower, but it's also kryptonite. Because you have to understand like the other side of that and that's that the draining of your executive function and how it's harder for your executive function to the resources to re replentify itself. And I think I just mean the word. But is it, would you say it's pretty similar though in with, with monotropism or is it, is it.
- [11:29]
Matia Murray
Yeah.
- [11:29]
Eric Tibbers
Something that's different about that?
- [11:31]
Matia Murray
Yeah, I mean, I think hyperfocus is a state that probably plenty of people can access. You know, it's not purely a neurodivergent person thing. Obviously flow states are things that human beings can access. There's definitely evidence that more monotropic people and which, you know, again Just from what we know so far, cause we have, it's not been super studied a lot, you know, relative to a bunch of other labels or diagnoses. But ADHD and autistic brains, another kind of similar theory is the interest based nervous system. So that's like a very, very similar idea.
- [12:03]
Eric Tibbers
So yes, the interest based nervous system, that, that makes sense.
- [12:07]
Matia Murray
So that basically if we're interested in something it's, we can, we can just stick with it. And again, that doesn't mean that there's no distraction. Like your brain is still your brain. And the way that I have heard it described that I like is within an attention tunnel. You can bounce around within the attention tunnel. So say, you know, you come into work, you've got one thing in mind. You're like, I'm just going to do this one task. But you're like, okay, I did that well while I'm here. So you're already in, you've already put yourself in the space. Which is also why like location and setting and you know, our environment can make such a big difference for us as well because that affects how we get into an attention tunnel and what kind of tunnel we're in and what kind of distractions might come in. Because it feels okay to bounce around within an attention tunnel. But if you get yanked all the way out of it, that's what tends to feel really bad.
- [12:55]
Eric Tibbers
Have you found anything for yourself that's. That kind of works for you to get out of that when you need to.
- [13:01]
Matia Murray
Oh, to like transition out. I just don't want to. That's. That's the other thing is it's.
- [13:07]
Eric Tibbers
You can't make me do it. I don't wanna.
- [13:09]
Matia Murray
Yeah. I mean mostly what I, what I usually need if I have to. And I'm trying to build this into my schedule more especially before social plans. So I don't just cancel the social plans. Is I need alone time. I'm not necessarily trying to force myself into a social state of mind. I'm just trying to get out of the work focus tunnel thing. And some things that have helped me around that include like doing a brain dump at the end of the session. Cause sometimes I just, I'm starting to get new ideas and I would maybe just sit and keep going. Right. But I'm like, nah, my workday is done. I'm gonna try to go do something social. So I will just let myself, I'll. I'll sometimes do it in just voice memos in my phone. If I realize my brain is in this mode, because otherwise I go to a social plan and I'm just still thinking about work. So it's like I've physically put myself somewhere else, but my brain is still thinking about it. And turns out most people don't just want to hear me talk about my ideas for my work.
- [14:05]
Eric Tibbers
Well, I'm. I'm interested in your ideas for. For your work. So what are you working on these days?
- [14:10]
Matia Murray
Oh, my God. So many things. I. Okay. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day that I did such a good job. I was. I was working with a coach who fi. Every coach I'd worked with had been like, bro, have you thought about calming down?
- [14:25]
Eric Tibbers
Oh, my God.
- [14:25]
Matia Murray
And doing less? And I'm like, no, actually, I want you to help me do more. And they were like, I don't know that that's physically possible for a human being. Um, so I finally had a coach a couple years ago who, like, really got through to me. Um, and this was in part because in 2021, I had five classical premieres, which is a lot. A lot of music. So I will often be producing in these large bursts because of monotropism. I can, like, get. I'm just like, I've got deadlines, I've got commissions. I'm doing it. But basically, of those pieces, I liked some of them a lot more than others. And none of them are, like, great work. None of them are what people are going to be talking about when I'm dead. And so part of what this coach was able to get through to me was like, hey, just because you're producing a lot doesn't mean it's tied to those bigger goals you have of writing a particular kind of music or, like, more impactful music, et cetera. And that was just one example. But basically, I did a really good job of cutting things out. I, like. I quit the poetry group that I was in that was meeting, you know, so. Because I've been writing poetry really, really regularly, which is great. I wrote a lot of poetry and I got some stuff published. And then I was like, this is taking so much space in my life and brain. So I, like, narrowed down, and then this year I've been like, adding, fix it again. This is getting bigger again. So that's why I was laughing. So I am finishing up have a course called Love youe Brain. That was a live thing, and it was basically for Audi H D. I mean, mostly creatives, but also entrepreneurs, because a lot of us are, and just sort of like, how do you do the project. How do you get things done and not want to die? Like, how do we get through the hard parts? That was basically the premise. But really working with this, this, you know, we've got our cyclical energy, we do have some strengths that we can lean into, but it's really hard. Like we have to make structures because the world is not set up for monotropic people. So we have to fight for that structure around our work anyway. So that was always a live round and now I'm finishing up the recorded material for a standalone course so people can just have that and return to it, which is great. And, oh, gosh, what else am I doing? I mean, I, I've got some composition projects on the horizon that I'm trying not to think about because they haven't started yet, which is hard. This is the thing I'm doing. I'm. I'm going to be producing someone else's podcast actually for the first time. Um, I have, you know, I have clients and then I also have this space called like your brain, which is a community space. So I'm pretty active in there, you know, pretty much every day. So that's another that takes up a good chunk of my brain. I just took a framing class to frame some of my art, so I was making frames for art. And I've been trying to be more social, which I think of as a project because it takes time.
- [17:07]
Eric Tibbers
Yeah, I'm hearing all of this and just wondering how a. How do you sort of tackle sort of self care and rest?
- [17:15]
Matia Murray
Yeah. Oh, I wrote a book and I need to like, actually self publish it. It's like pretty much done. I have a medical problem.
- [17:26]
Eric Tibbers
I want to hear about the book and probably all the other projects that you haven't even told me about yet. But what I first want to do is take a quick break and when we come back, we'll continue this conversation. So we will be right back.
- [17:39]
Support for this podcast comes from ADHD rewired's coaching and accountability groups. This fall will officially be our 10 year anniversary of the launch of our coaching and accountability groups. And since then we have worked with over 1200 people over 37 seasons. In 2019, we were recognized at the Innovative Program series at the International Conference on ADHD. And we will be honored again at the 2024 conference this November in California. I hope to see you there. And by the way, if you've been thinking about going to that conference, the early bird special rate is ending soon, so go to Chadchadd.org to register. But that's not what this AD is about.
- [18:28]
This is about our coaching groups.
- [18:29]
And when it comes to getting help for your ADHD experience does matter. And if you think that you learn best through an intensive and immersive interactive community based program and you can commit to five to seven hours a week starting October 10th through December 5th, then join us for the 38th season of coaching and accountability groups. And this season we're going to be giving you some time back. We're making this season eight weeks instead of 10, and we're doing this for a few reasons. One, this will help continue to keep the cost of enrollment down. Two, we know how hectic December can get around the holidays and three typically during weeks eight and nine of our groups we work on yearly and monthly planning. So instead of doing our typical sort of abridged version of yearly planning during group, you will be invited and encouraged to attend our popular five week yearly planning workshop that we do each Tuesday for the members of our alumni community. Now I don't want to bombard you with too much information on the schedule and when that all takes place, but it is on the website so you can go check that out@coachingrewired.com it's all laid out there together. We're going to work on issues like time blindness and using your calendar and to do lists more effectively. We're going to be working on self care and developing a healthier relationship with our ADHD and so much more. From gaining self awareness and discovering blind spots to fostering more self acceptance and learning how to advocate for what you need in order to show up in life as the best and most authentic version of yourself. Plus, I think the best part of doing this work in a group setting that is part of a membership community is you're going to get to meet a bunch of really cool ADHDers and you may even make some new fabulous neurodivergent friends. And as I mentioned, this fall I'm only offering one section so space is limited and I've already received several pre registration submissions. And this is all before even officially announcing our fall group going to be kicking off registration on Thursday, September 5th at 10:00am Pacific One Eastern. And just like last season, the sooner you register the more you will save. You can join us for only 1199 when you register at any of the first three registration events on September 5th, 12th or 19th. Those are all on Thursdays. All registration events will be at 10am Pacific One Eastern. Or if you wait until September 26th which is the Last registration event, the enrollment will increase to 1399. Or if you want a private one on one registration, call with me. I'm also offering that for 1399 and payment plans are available. So how do you register? Step one, go to coachingrewired.com that's coachingrewired.com and add your name to the interest list. And don't forget to confirm your email once you do that. So you get the information on how to register. Then go to the pre registration page that will be linked in the email and complete the pre registration steps outlined on that page. October is ADHD Awareness Month and group starts October 5th. So plan to celebrate ADHD Awareness Month by getting your ADHD rewired. Take the first step, go to coaching Rewired.com that's coaching Rewired.com all right, we are back.
- [22:20]
All right, so right before the break you just kind of casually dropped. Oh yeah. And I wrote a book that you, that you're trying to finish. What, what's the book?
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Matia Murray
It's called the Little Book of Loving and it's a little bit poetic. But the concept behind it was basically I wanted this sort of, I wanted it to feel sort of meditative and it's about like sinking into a loving state and being able to access that as a feeling.
- [22:47]
Eric Tibbers
Is it more like relationship with self and self love?
- [22:51]
Matia Murray
Huh? Yeah.
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Eric Tibbers
What, what was it that sort of drove you to or inspired that for you?
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Matia Murray
I, I don't even remember. I've actually, this is technically the third book that I've like largely drafted. It's definitely the closest to being done. Done. Like it's, I, it's in its like fourth edit. So I, it's like it's, it's pretty much done. And, and actually I was planning on releasing that. I had like a, I was like going to be self publishing it and I like had a whole plan for it and then I was like, actually I need to work on stuff that makes money and kind of like set that down for a little bit. Cause I'm not expecting it to. Obviously, you know, that's not the point. But yeah, I, I, I love words. I'm very verbal. I was a hyperlexic kid. So for me, books that I love and have really attached to and like writers and thinkers and spoken word as well, you know, people that I listen to. There's just this quality in works that I feel like I can return to and like get the feeling that I want. That's a lot of where I get that. If that makes Sense is like words, so that's something. Anyway, that's kind of what I had in mind was like, I was trying to write something that, like, created this particular feeling state.
- [24:02]
Eric Tibbers
Hmm. What else you going on?
- [24:06]
Matia Murray
All right, fun fact. Sometimes I make myself. I do this periodically where I don't let myself look at anything. I'm just like, I'm just gonna write down all of my projects that are technically happening that I have, like, that are, like, in some way active, that I have not, you know, officially set aside. Not a single time have I ever gotten the list complete off the top of my head. Not a single time in my entire life that I've done.
- [24:33]
Eric Tibbers
It's actually, it's a great strategy too. I, I, we do this in my, in my coaching program when we're talking about our sort of daily and weekly planning is like, before you look at anything, start with what's in your head. Just, like, take a few minutes and just dump it out of your head and then go and look at everything.
- [24:50]
Matia Murray
Yeah.
- [24:51]
Eric Tibbers
So your, your background now. So when, when did you learn you had ADHD and autism? I know you also share that, that you do have a, that you feel like you're recovered from complex PTSD and disordered eating. So you, you, you've been through lots of shit.
- [25:08]
Matia Murray
Yeah, my, My twenties were not fun, nor my teens, not fun at all. Um, both of my parents have adhd, so they were not diagnosed or treated at all, which was also not fun. Cause, you know, things like, like, I got really good at shimmying in little windows as a kid because my parents would have gotten us locked out of the house just over and over and over, just like, constantly. So stuff like that, where, you know, it was, like, very chaotic in that sense. My dad's also definitely autistic. I don't think my mom is, but basically, you know, I, I knew, but they would talk about my dad being add because you can't, you can't go to work without shoes on and, like, think that there's nothing going on. Like, even so, I remember people talking about ADHD from a very young age because of that, even though my dad never saw any kind of support for that as far as I know. And then I sought treatment or diagnosis in 2017. I think it was 2017, I actually got tested for the first time, like, the neuropsych testing, because the year before that, I only bought groceries five times. Like, I only went to a grocery store five times for an entire. And I knew that because I did it. So infrequently that it was notable. And I kept track of that and then came to my therapist and was like, I am not okay. And even when I was really, really, really skinny, nobody ever said anything. No doctor ever thought it was a problem, because thinness is so prized in our culture that even when I, like, clearly had a medical problem and did not look healthy, everybody was just like, oh, wow, good for you. And I was just like, I'm literally not eating food.
- [26:52]
Eric Tibbers
And what.
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Was there an intention behind that?
- [26:56]
Matia Murray
I mean, my mom also has disordered eating, so, like, that. I definitely grew up with weird ideas around food. I also grew up poor. So, like, part of that was we were not allowed to eat without permission. Like, we were not supposed to go find food for ourselves or, like, eat food without permission, because my mom was trying to, like, make things last, basically. And so, you know, a lot of things that potentially go into that. There's also a huge overlap between being autistic and having disordered eating for a lot of reasons. Just, like, the control stuff, it did. It did make me feel good in a certain way to know, like, hey, I only have this much food, and I can, like, make it last. And, like, I don't need to eat that much. Which is true, because I didn't have any muscle to maintain. And. And now that I have muscle, I look back and I'm like, I couldn't do anything. Like, I used to be so weak. Um, anyway, so that's. That's its own thing. Um, what were we talking about right before that? I feel like I was going somewhere.
- [27:46]
Eric Tibbers
With that complex ptsd.
- [27:50]
Matia Murray
Oh, and the Getting. Getting the ADHD testing. Yeah, my therapist, actually, when I was trying to get her to refer me and, you know, so the insurance would cover it, she didn't want to. She was just like, you know, you're, like, doing kind of okay. And I was like, am I though? Like, am I really? And then I missed three appointments in a row that I was, like, genuinely trying to make it to. I was. It was not, like, one day I just didn't look at my calendar, so I didn't show up. And when I missed three appointments in a row, she was like, fine, I'll. I'll refer you to ADHD testing. So I did that. Um, and then autism testing I did in 2021. Um, what was that? Like, very short version is, I was, like, aware of ADHD growing up, but I didn't really know kind of the broader context or, like, what else it meant besides being forgetful and Then when I finally started to learn more and get. I was like, oh, yeah, this explains so much about my life. But as I kept going, as you know, you know, you kind of get to this point where you're like, this doesn't explain everything. It doesn't explain all the social stuff or, like, why people just randomly stop talking to me and then refuse to talk to me ever again. And I don't know why. Like, I don't know what I did.
- [28:58]
Eric Tibbers
I feel that because I've. I've been through that, and it's. It's so painful. It's. Yeah, it's so challenging, too, because we're like, help me understand. And it's. Yeah, I think there's a pervasive issue of also people not knowing how to have challenging conversations around, you know, stuff like that. Like, hey, you. You did this. That really kind of pissed me off. For this particular reason. Like, okay, like, that would be helpful. I. Help me understand so I can try to be better in the future. Have you always been kind of driven, or is this something that's, like, sort of later, you know, later stages of life for you? I mean, you. How old are you?
- [29:35]
Matia Murray
36.
- [29:36]
Eric Tibbers
Okay, 36. And just for the podcast listeners, I'm. Mati doesn't look a day older than, like, 22. But have you.
- [29:49]
Have you always felt so driven?
- [29:51]
Matia Murray
There's definitely. I'm sure there's trauma behind that. I've. I've processed that a lot in therapy. Like, my parents only really gave us positive attention for achievement, basically, pretty consistently, that was. And especially because I'm the oldest of seven, it was like, whoever had done the most recent, most impressive thing was the one who was getting positive attention, basically. Um, two of my siblings were in the national spelling bee. One of them got 11th place. I think one of my siblings, like, went to the Cuban Jazz Festival and played with Chick Corea, you know, like, when she was really young. So, you know, we've all done stuff. I was also. This is another huge rabbit hole of a topic, but I was homeschooled, which had a lot of downsides, obviously, on the abuse front. But it's nice if you're monotropic, because you get to kind of spend your time how you want to. Like, it was very unstructured and kind of neglectful, you know, like, not. Not great. But at the same time, there were elements of that that really worked for me because I could really, you know, focus what I. Where I was really interested in the moment. Um, so, yeah, I missed a Lot of topics. I still really don't understand anything about chemistry. I never took like the sciencey stuff other than physics. But yeah, chemistry and biology. People say basic things. They're like, everybody knows this. And I'm like, no, did not go to school. Nobody has ever said that to me.
- [31:15]
Eric Tibbers
Well, I've been through a chemistry class and probably, you know, wore out my welcome going to get extra help with my chemistry teacher. And it's still. I barely got a C. It just did not make sense to me. And then I have my son who like his. One of his current special interests is the periodic table of elements. So I'm just like. And one of his like life dreams is to discover a new element.
- [31:39]
Matia Murray
That's cool. Yeah, yeah. So I, I do wanna. On the like achievement or kind of driven front. Like, the, the parts of me that were like, I have to do this to prove that I deserve to live basically are like, to get my emotional needs met essentially. Like that has died down quite a bit. And I feel like a lot of what drives me at this point. And I think about this a lot from an artistic perspective because as a composition teacher, for example, or when I've taught poetry, I talk about, you know, there's like communication versus expression and we're all. We do both. But as an artist it's very different to try to express yourself fully in a way that makes sense to you versus to try to communicate something or have the reader or listener have a particular experience. And if you're thinking about a more commercial framework around artistic production, which most of us do, because that's the weird world that we currently live in, the communication aspect is paramount because you have to make something happen or make people feel a particular way. It has to make sense to them or they think it's bad art. But I'm kind of bummed that expressive art is so looked down upon almost even in the artistic world, like in say the MFA poetry world, because I know a lot of people who did that degree. It feels like the self expression piece isn't as. It's like they, they only care about that if they can communicate it in a particular way and make sure that their thing makes sense. Obviously there are artists who don't do that and you know, there's avant garde music and weird poetry. But you know, I. I think about that a lot because right now I keep thinking about, you know, a lot of my drive is for self expression, but that, that's literally not as valued in a lot of ways because if it doesn't make sense or doesn't come across to people? Like, the response I get to a lot of my poetry, I think it's. Some of them, I'm like, this is super straightforward. The meaning is obvious. And the number one thing I've heard from friends who've read it are, I love it. I just don't get it.
- [33:38]
Eric Tibbers
Hmm. Do you. Not to put you on the spot here, but do you have any poetry that you'd be open to sharing?
- [33:45]
Matia Murray
I'm gonna go grab this one. And I can read this. It's pretty short. This one was in Boston City hall for a year as part of a program. Nine years and counting. No, I did not move here for school. Technically, a trap was laid, and I flew into poisoned honey. Before forced to eat myself for sustenance, I sustained an injury of the blood vessels of stolen land. Both sides of my family on Mayflower or fortune, wealth and hound. Too strained a history too thin. A broken tain home, as I understand it, requires sin.
- [34:29]
Eric Tibbers
Hmm. Do you unpack that a little bit for us?
- [34:32]
Matia Murray
About my family history.
- [34:35]
Eric Tibbers
I picked up on some of that. I was curious about some of the metaphors, like the one around honey and then the one around, like, the last line about, like, home people about, like, sin or. That was. Yeah, I mean, the. The visuals. I definitely had a visceral response to some of the lines in there. But I'm really curious. You're thinking through it.
- [34:58]
Matia Murray
Yeah. Well. And the first half is. Is biographical. Like, I. I moved to Boston technically for a job, but it ended up being a really bad situation and involving a lot of wage theft that I definitely could have sued them for and should have and didn't because I was, like, too traumatized to deal with things like that. Um, so that was, like, overall a bad situation. And. Fine. I'll just. I'll just say this part that the. The person who, like, created that job basically to, like, draw me across the country and get me to move out to Boston was somebody who had asked me out when we were, like, 13, and I'd said no. So this person had just stayed obsessed with me for, like, a decade.
- [35:37]
Eric Tibbers
Oh, my gosh.
- [35:37]
Matia Murray
I didn't. I didn't know that.
- [35:40]
Eric Tibbers
Did you know it was that same person, or you just.
- [35:43]
Matia Murray
Okay, yeah. Like, we stayed in touch, but I didn't real. And, like, I would have said we were friends, but I didn't realize that there was, like, this whole thing.
- [35:50]
Eric Tibbers
How was that to realize that for you?
- [35:52]
Matia Murray
I mean, awful. And then also, in retrospect, I actually just had this thought the other day. I was like, how did my parents not step in? And, like. Because I was describing to them what was happening as it was happening. And any reasonable adult would have been like, you are putting yourself in a terrible situation. Um, and they were just like, cool, have fun. Like, good luck. Um, and looking back, I'm just like, I just. I didn't have any adults in my life, basically, who were. Who both cared about me because my. My mom doesn't like me. I think, like, that's part of the. She just literally dislikes me because I'm autistic. Um, she doesn't like my dad either, but. And then. So they. I didn't have any, like, figures in my life, basically, who both cared about me and could actually, like, give me reasonable advice. And so I made a bunch of really bad choices in my early 20s that also then put me in a really bad financial situation for a long time because, you know, all those, like, wage theft, et cetera, like, just having. Being underpaid or unpaid. Yeah. In retrospect, if anybody described to me what I was about to get myself into, I would have, like, physically restrained them from leaving. Basically, like, what the fuck are you doing?
- [37:04]
Eric Tibbers
Would you say that you have this experience? Because it's something that I've been kind of experiencing where there's a situation that, like, at the time, we didn't really think through all the factors. But then, like, once. It's once, like, you know, you see that it either upset someone or it impacted you in a negative way. It's like, it's obvious now that you see it and you're like, how did I not consider those things? Like, is that something that, like, you experience often?
- [37:33]
Matia Murray
Yes.
- [37:33]
Eric Tibbers
Yeah.
- [37:34]
Matia Murray
Yeah. And I'm not surprised that I didn't think all through all that at 21, you know, that that makes sense. Like, I'm not. I'm not mad at that version of myself, but I think mostly I look back and I'm just like, it sucks that I didn't have anybody to help me make decisions or think through things. And to me that, you know, it's kind of on the broader ADHD front. Like, a lot of the reason. It appears that pretty much every ADHD person also has complex ptsd. Like, that might be. Maybe not literally everybody, but, like, it's not good.
- [38:09]
Eric Tibbers
Yeah.
- [38:09]
Matia Murray
Um, it's. Is that, first of all, autistic people appear to be more easily traumatized. Like, traumatized by, like, things in our nervous system have a. Cause, a bigger reaction, and therefore can more easily lead to actual trauma style reactions in the body. But then also, you know, if your parents are neurodivergent and they didn't have their needs met and they're traumatized also like who and your whole extended family is. Which is true in my case. Like how. Who is gonna help you? Like who is gonna actually give you good advice and like walk you through things, let alone financial support, which is just absolutely not on the table at all. But like even just verbally, it's just really hard to get good help. Um, and I've had so many therapists who were telling me I've. I also think this is deeply inappropriate. I've had multiple therapists tell me I was their favorite patient or client and that I was doing really great and that I was obviously like doing a great job and like doing really, really well. And I'm like I'm, I literally might kill myself. Like are you, what, what are you talking about?
- [39:13]
Eric Tibbers
Oh my gosh.
- [39:13]
Matia Murray
Where I felt like the disconnect. So I'm not just talking about, you know, parents. It's like on a, on a broad scale I feel like it's been really hard for me to get help and get people to understand what I need because they're looking at my life going like, oh look, you've achieved stuff and like you look good. Like, I don't know, there's like a lot of based on appearance. I'll see this in my notes sometimes from say like the neuropsych testing. They're like appears well groomed and like I'm just like what I have to like look disheveled to get help.
- [39:45]
Eric Tibbers
What. So what do you make of that? Since this is clearly a patterned response.
- [39:49]
Matia Murray
That you've gotten just, just that, that our society doesn't really care about helping people who don't look awful. There's also, I mean I, I don't know why this is coming to mind, but there's like a really strong both society. There's this like cultural idea and it's partly based in weird Christian stuff that basically attractive people are smarter, have better morals, you know, all this stuff. So basically if you look like what people think of a. Well like a together person looks like they think you don't need help.
- [40:21]
Eric Tibbers
It just makes me think how gross humanity is.
- [40:24]
Matia Murray
Oh yeah.
- [40:24]
Eric Tibbers
All right, we're going to take a quick break and we will be right back.
- [40:28]
Support for ADHD Rewired comes from ADHD Rewired's virtual co working community at adultstudyhall.com jump into our 24.7quiet co working room or one of our many facilitated coworking sessions. Free to try for the first week and only $19.99 a month after that. Go to adultstudyhall.com to join ADHD Rewire's virtual body doubling Membership community. And this week I'm hosting our monthly Pomodoro Dance party on Friday, August 23rd at 11am Pacific 2 Eastern. Join us for two 50 minute work blocks and then get a fun and energizing 10 minute work break after each workblock as I will be your dopamine DJ. Sign up now at adult studyhall.com that's adult studyhaul.com and we're back a decade.
- [41:23]
Ago, more than a decade ago. And I was really into the sort of world of autism as a clinician and was, you know, looking a lot of the research. And so what I'm going to say is this might be outdated, this might not be valid anymore. But I remember reading something about how there's a correlation between facial symmetry which, which is connected to attractiven and autism. Have you seen that?
- [41:47]
Matia Murray
I have not. That's so interesting, especially because I'm reading a book about like electricity in the body, electricity signals in the body and the history of it. It's called we. I think it's called we are electric. Super interesting. And one of the part I just got to in the book is like DNA does not create shape. It says how to make an eye, but it doesn't say that we need two eyes or where they go. And it, one theory is that it's electrical signals pulling things around that are creating symmetry in the body and like how, how, where the organs end up and all this stuff. And so just because that's top of mind for me, I'm like, oh, I wonder if us having less neural pruning ends up with more symmetrical faces. But that doesn't really make sense because that happens later. But like I wonder if there's something around like electricity in utero or something. The, or maybe if you're, if your pregnant parent is autistic, like maybe that would have more of a difference too. Anyway, I have no idea. That is unbelievably far conjecture.
- [42:48]
Eric Tibbers
I and it, it's interesting because like over the last few months I, I've been thinking about like, I feel like I really want to dive back into like the autism research because I feel like just Even the last 10 years I think our, the understanding of autism has like changed so profoundly.
- [43:03]
Matia Murray
Yeah.
- [43:05]
Eric Tibbers
Because I, I remember like, you know, relating to so many autistic traits, but, like, never actually considered myself as someone that could have autism until, you know, until life just keeps giving me feedback, and then I'm like, huh. Wait, that's also autism. Oh.
- [43:25]
Matia Murray
When life gives you feedback, play a sick bass riff.
- [43:29]
Eric Tibbers
I love that life gives you feedback. Play a sick bass riff.
- [43:35]
Matia Murray
I have to live in here all the time. This is happening constantly.
- [43:38]
Eric Tibbers
I was gonna say I'm. I'm really just, like, fascinated by the tour of your mind. It's because it's, like. It's fun. It's. It's the interconnectivity between different thoughts and.
- [43:52]
Yeah.
- [43:52]
And I'm also easily fascinated by things, so. Which is a quality of myself that I actually like, because then I'm usually not bored because I get easily fascinated by things.
- [44:02]
Matia Murray
I love that quality.
- [44:03]
Eric Tibbers
Do you play bass, too?
- [44:05]
Matia Murray
No.
- [44:07]
Eric Tibbers
So you play piano?
- [44:09]
Matia Murray
Yeah.
- [44:09]
Eric Tibbers
What else do you play?
- [44:10]
Matia Murray
Violin and then voice or. My main instruments. Yeah.
- [44:14]
Eric Tibbers
And classically trained.
- [44:16]
Matia Murray
Yeah.
- [44:18]
Eric Tibbers
That was a. That was a loaded. Yeah. So you didn't like the training or what?
- [44:24]
Matia Murray
Well, my dad was my piano teacher initially. I actually don't remember starting piano lessons. It started when I was three, so it's like right around this time, I started forming memories. Started by limb when I was 4 with kind of a mean teacher. So, you know, have just. There's a lot there.
- [44:39]
Eric Tibbers
I had a mean teacher, too, when I was, like, five, and I think I took lessons for, like, six months. And all I remembered was, her name is Bleckman. And it was. The lessons were in her basement. And it smelled like mothballs. And it was just like. It used one of those sticks when you made a mistake, like, on the. On your hand.
- [44:58]
Oh, my God.
- [44:59]
Oh, yeah. It was like, oh, it was terrifying. Which is why I never practiced what I was supposed to be practicing.
- [45:05]
Matia Murray
Another thing I realized in retrospect, I would argue with my teacher about. For violin in particular, and this wouldn't happen to me with piano, I would argue about what the note was. He'd be like, it's an A. I'd be like, no, it's a circle. Which are close to each other. It's because I needed glasses. And because I wasn't in school, I didn't get my eyes tested until I put on my mom's glasses when I was 11. And I was like, you can see individual leaves on trees. And she was like, ah, shit. I guess we should probably start getting your eyes. So I just, like. I went probably six, seven years where I Should have had glasses. And I think that's a really good analogy for, like, the life experience.
- [45:39]
Eric Tibbers
I was kind of what I was.
- [45:41]
Matia Murray
Just thinking social, cultural problem. I have a physical problem that there is an actual solution to. But nobody is bothering to check in with me about whether I'm having this problem because, you know, why would you ask somebody that? And it's a literal perception issue. Like you. It's really hard to say to somebody, are you having a different experience than other people? I'm like, I don't know.
- [46:00]
Eric Tibbers
How do you know? Right?
- [46:01]
Matia Murray
How would I know that?
- [46:03]
Eric Tibbers
So based on everything that you've been through in life, it makes me want.
- [46:08]
To kind of wonder, how do you.
- [46:09]
Now think about success?
- [46:12]
Matia Murray
Oh, good question. I know from having one things which are that. That it doesn't give you emotionally what you think it's gonna give you. Um, I actually have a podcast episode about that. Um, I think it's called the Disappointment of Success.
- [46:26]
Eric Tibbers
Ooh.
- [46:27]
Matia Murray
Recently about, like, a particular thing where I, like, had a thing in mind that I wanted. And then technically I got a version of it. And I was like, I feel nothing. I feel nothing. So, like, that's part of it is I know just from experience that you can. You can get. You can win awards and still just be like, yeah, whatever. I still, like, open the fridge, smell a weird smell, and just decide not to eat. You know, like, it's not. It's not fixing my daily life problems. And then also the other piece of it is, like, what I was talking about, self expression. A lot of what I did when I took a big step back from my work in general was, why am I doing this? Because for a long time I was doing it because I thought I could create something great. And that was in part from feedback I was getting from teachers. Like, one of my teachers in grad school said he thought I could contribute something significant to American music, right? So that's like, honestly kind of rude to say to somebody because now I have to know that he thought that that's just sitting there in my brain, not actually a good thought. But, you know, I was like, even if I thought I could do that, and even if I put in all the work to do that, and even if I technically had the skill, it doesn't mean that it would actually get any purchase in the culture and actually do what I wanted it to do, or maybe it would after my death and, like, whatever. I think that would be really frustrating to be like. And there are. And that's happened to artists all the time, right? They're like, I'm doing something great. I think it's great. Nobody cares. And then, you know, much, much later, or maybe near the end of their life, something picks up. That's the frustrating thing about the intersection between, like, the commercial, you know, aspect of how we actually get work out there, blah, blah. That's its own whole thing. So for me, I really reframed my work around writing the kinds of things I wanted to be writing, which is technically tautological, but like that I. I will feel good about my work if I feel like my work is expressing what I want it to express and. Or communicating what I want it to communicate. So if it has the effect that I want it to have, I have a choral piece that might be performed, finally be premiered. Covid's been very weird for choral music, and I hadn't listened to it in a couple years. I went back and listened to it and I cried at the climactic moment and I wrote it and I was.
- [48:41]
Eric Tibbers
Like, yeah, I love that.
- [48:43]
Matia Murray
That. That is satisfying. If it gives me the emotional reaction, it's working.
- [48:49]
Eric Tibbers
Oh, I love that.
- [48:52]
Matia Murray
But that is satisfying. Obviously, if it gets performed, great. If it gets performed a bunch, great. If I get money from it, great. But like, for me, having created a moment that can get me worked up as the person who did it anyway. So, yeah, that's a lot of how I've reframed around success.
- [49:10]
Eric Tibbers
So is there. I imagine there's a large sort of Venn diagram in this idea, but with your podcast audience, you. Flourishing. So the. The success and flourishing, are there differences? And what. Where's the.
- [49:26]
Matia Murray
Oh, my God, there. I don't even know if that vent diagram is that big. Knowing a lot of miserable successful people. To me, flourishing is, I mean, at a very basic sense, getting your needs met. And also that self expression piece. I love the idea, this is not my idea that the opposite of depression is self expression. And I love that idea. I still don't 100% know what that means or if that's technically correct, but I like it. And for me, part of flourishing is feeling like I get to sink into my interests as a monotropic person as well, having ample time to do that and then being able to be again as a creative person. Like, obviously I care about this, but, you know, being able to then sink into my interests and then do something with it. But that doesn't necessarily mean creating a piece of art or making a work out of it. For me, flourishing is in part even just random bit of conversation about oh hey book I read. Here's a random thought I had that was self expression. I'm not doing anything with it. It's not work. But it feels meaningful to me to be able to take in stuff I find interesting, synthesize it, and then do stuff with it. Which is probably why I'm a podcaster now, because that's exactly what that is. Very satisfying to me. And success is. You know, there's some overlap with that, but our systems for how we're recognized and compensated for our work are so screwed up at this point, I think it's really hard for those Venn diagrams to overlap pretty much.
- [51:03]
Eric Tibbers
TMRA Check out their podcast audihd A U D H D Flourishing and what's your website?
- [51:11]
Matia Murray
Audihdflourishing.com and then audihdflourishing.com hello. Is a good place to go for folks for a few starter podcast episodes.
- [51:19]
Eric Tibbers
Awesome.
- [51:19]
Matia Murray
Love that.
- [51:20]
Eric Tibbers
Well, thank you so much for being.
- [51:22]
On and it was good chatting with you again.
- [51:25]
Matia Murray
Thank you.
- [51:26]
Eric Tibbers
Hey, if you love this podcast and you really miss getting new episodes the last few weeks, then please consider if you are able to Becoming a Patron as you might know, I had to make some big cuts to my team this year and your support can help me hire a new editor for the podcast. Right now, Patreon contributions are down to $522 a month. And to all of our patrons who still give each month or who are on the annual plan, thank you so much. Your support has truly been helping me with other stuff. Keeping it going. And for everyone else, if y' all can help me get to a thousand dollars a month, I will commit to hiring a new editor and getting back to weekly episodes within three weeks of hitting that thousand dollars a month mark. So if 47, if I did the math right, if 47 of you listening right now gave 10 bucks a month or 100 of you gave $5 a month will be right there. So if you can do it, please consider becoming a patron. Or consider becoming a patron at the 25amonth level and you can join me for a monthly coaching call that we do just about every fourth Tuesday of the month at 1pm Pacific 4 Eastern. The next one is on August 27th. After that it's September 24th. And if you are a $25 a month patron, don't forget to add this to your calendar because we often only have a few people that attend each month. So if you've already signed up for that, join us. And if you haven't, join us. And make sure you get that on your calendar, the website. Go to ADHD Rewired.com Patreon and that will take you right to our Patreon page. Or if you just go to adhd rewired.com there is a patreon link at the bottom of the page there.
- [53:17]
All right.
- [53:17]
We will see you next time. Thanks so much.