A (6:12)

Thank you for having me. Eric.

B (6:13)

Let's start with a little bit of who you are, how you got into this work and then let's dive right into talking about neurodivergent teams and communication and some of the things that you've kind of have created through the years.

A (6:27)

Yeah. First, thank you for inviting me to this opportunity and for having a platform that discusses ADHD and some of the beautiful parts of it and some of the challenges and, and raising awareness. I think you and others have been integral in helping more people discover that they have ADHD or discover other aspects of the neurodivergence. And that's really, really important that we're moving it away from medicalized, sterile, sanitized deficit mindset to this is who we are. This is we've always been here and I think as more and more people talk about it and share their experiences, they get to see themselves and we get to bring to a place where people it's not a big deal to provide accommodating, affirming, workplace and other experiences. So the question of who I am is kind of a I always like to take a step back and think about from the perspective of the person who's listening, what do they want to know? I am a For those who benefit from a visual description, I'm a dark skinned person with a shaved head and I am wearing a green and yellow shirt, dress and green jacket. My fingernails are painted, I have makeup on and behind me are some degrees and a bookcase. Who I am. I am a child and descendant of enslaved Africans in America. I'm also gender expansive and that identity itself is rooted deeply in my African roots out of awareness and study of free European contact understandings of gender and gender diversity in the continent of Africa. So I don't describe myself as non binary because it's important for me in my reclamation to move towards what I want to be instead of away from what now I am or describe myself in opposition to something. And I'm also neurodivergent. Discovered late in life that I live with adhd, with autism and dyscalculia. So for those who are not sure what dyscalculia is, it's a little bit like dyslexia but with math. So distances, eccalations. If you were ever like me as a kid, you struggled with mental math and mountain math and all that in fourth grade and timetables and you struggled with that. You might recognize some of the experiences and how I got into this work. I have a master's degree in education and human Development and I've always been an educator. I've educated from first grade to a university in the United States and I've also taught in Rwanda. I've taught in very diverse settings and spaces. But what kept coming up for me was the prevalence of the need to have conversations and really culturally affirming, gender affirming frameworks, understandings of neurodiversity. Everywhere I went there was still this sort of pervasive idea of what neurodiversity was and who, who was neurodivergent and who was not. And I found that a lot of my colleagues did not have the cultural awareness and culturally affirming background to understand how to have the conversation with diverse families, with diverse clients, with diverse people around neurodiversity. And so I provide an intersectional approach to neurodiversity that is rooted in healthy communication and problem solving and moving away from sort of clinical labels and limited beliefs and deficit mindset and encouraging people to think more from a flexible, dynamic, people centered understanding of neurodiversity.

B (10:25)

It's interesting, my background as a social worker, we were taught the importance of using person first language, a person with adhd, a person with autism. And to say like an autistic person or an ADHD or like at, you know, at the time when I was in grad school would have been like this person didn't use. And I just recently finished the audiobook by Nick Walker, the Neuro Queer Heresies. And they make this really. It's something I've heard before, but I think it was the way it was because the author also Neuro, the Virgin Autistic Queer. And to this idea of that a person isn't necessarily disabled, it is a community that is disabled because of systemic issues. And so it's been having kind of think a lot lately about like how is it that our environments are actually disabling us, right. How is it that with this sort of internalized ableism, right. Like I was having a discussion last week with my alumni sort of about this because I was, I was a very strong like person, first language person. But I also try to open my mind to other perspectives and I'm more than happy to shift perspectives if new information sort of resonates and kind of lands. And definitely this idea of the social model of disability, which is a big part of what this neurodiversity idea comes from it's more of a social model of disability. And I love in the book that the author says to, like, stop using neurodivergent as code for autism. Like, if you mean autism, like say, say the person's autistic.

A (12:09)

Right.

B (12:10)

So I was just curious where your reference points are for getting into sort of neurodiversity and whatnot.

A (12:17)

Yeah. So, yeah, like I mentioned, I'm a late discoverer and I use discovery on purpose. Right. So it's a choice to move away from diagnosis because that's sort of the entry point is sort of the lens that people sort of look at things like autism or ADHD is from a medicalized treatment perspective. Right. This person has this thing that we need to treat so they can act in neurodominant ways and they can be productive. Right. At work or school. And that's very much informed by and shaped by Western understandings of illness and treatment and health and wellness. You know, there's a pill for every ill. It's a. That sort of approach. Right. It's on the individual to move towards what is expected of them. There'll be a problem, play nice. And then there's actually, there's normative evaluations and actual consequences for if a person does accept who they are fully and does not make any effort to move towards neurodominant standards and neurodominant norms. Not too long ago, somebody could have been pronoun or had their livelihood taken away, had their children taken away, because they were not acting in a way that they were expected to. And so when they're asking about where is my entry point into neurodiversity? I think that the. It's important for me to sort of state that neurodiversity is equally wrapped up into intricately wrapped up into race, into gender, into class, into the history of our societies, our communities. As you're talking about it from a social perspective. Right. It is a. People can get angry or frustrated, but it is a social construct which means that as a society, as a social group, we are constructing what it means to be a neurodiamond, what it means to act in a certain way. When we're saying things like this is common sense, what we're saying is this is what. This is what we expect people to know and to perceive and to process information. This is the decision that we expect people to make when they're given this information in this particular way. And this has never been an easy experience for me. So when, when you're. When you're a person who is a late discoverer of your neurodivergent characteristics, often there is a period of grieving where you are grieving the life that you could have had had you received or been allowed to have the support that you, you needed in your reality. When I discovered my inert long adhd, my autism and dysfunction, it was incredibly empowering and it was incredibly, I was much more productive, I was much more accepting. And it really, I think, prompted me to not be satisfied with what was happening in terms of the conversation and how neurodiversity was being spoken about and who was at the center of the conversation. And I didn't see myself anywhere in the conversation as a black person and gender expansive person, working class roots. You know, I would go to these conferences, I would go to these spaces, I would learn about being a coach and you know, my neuro mindfulness coaching certification in all of these spaces where I wanted to help and support it was from this very European, you know, assumedly masculinized medical framework that assumed that there was one way to be right. And also that's how progress was measured. Right? When you're taking this course or when you're learning this, you're learning how to be neurodiver, they're not framing it that way. That's basically the goal is to, here's how to mask effectively, here's how to do these things. And like, this is not affirming to me as a person from my background. And I know that this is keeping people who are like me out of new spaces where they can potentially receive helpful information and be empowered, but for the fact that it's exclusive or it's, you know, it's, it's imminent. And so I think that my mother and my, my parents have always been very stern about the idea that, you know, if you don't see it, be it. And I'm also aware that as somebody who has so many unearned disabilities, I don't call them disproportions because I think that that's not, it's not clear enough. Oh my privilege. It's like, well, no, that's not clear enough. Like it ties people's understanding of context. Like in this particular context, this particular aspect is an unearned advantage or you getting or being successful, right? So being a male, being European descent, being neurodominant is an unearned advantage in a certain context. And so I firm around that. But I'm aware that although I have some unearned disadvantages as relates to race and gender and other things. I have a good number of unearned and earned advantages that allow me to offer my perspective and my voice and my coaching and my support people who need it. There's a huge need of black and brown, gender expansive people who are wanting support, affirmation and guidance and people who can help them. And there's not a lot of people who look like them on the other end. So I decided to try to bridge that gap a little bit.

B (18:02)

I know the comments I've made in the past about and it has been getting better, thankfully. You know, I've been going to the ADHD conferences for the last, I think 12 years now. And one of the things that struck me the most from the first like, you know, handful of times that I went to these conferences was to see white people. Right. Like, and ADHD is not just owned by white people. I mean and so, and I do think that there has been intentional advocacy that has been done to reach more people other than just the dominant white. You know, it's, this is a big issue in mental health in general.

A (18:37)

Yeah.

B (18:39)

So in the workspace, because you do a lot of consulting, how do you convince the stakeholders in a sense that bringing in these kinds of trainings is not just like needed but advantageous for them as a business.

A (18:56)

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, I of course am aware of the need to or the advantageous, the benefits of speaking to the key decision makers and other things. Interestingly, I don't speak to them often. Let's say on my LinkedIn I'm a LinkedIn help facilitation voice. This year I just reached over 12,000 followers and I'm blessed to have a pretty strong group of people who are in my learning community and follow my newsletter. And they're mostly people who are speech pathologists, they're therapists. There are people who are autistic and neurodivergent of some kind or parents of neurodivergent kids, people who want to be neuro inclusive managers. And my approach has been to be my full authentic self and to share about my journey and some of the challenges and some of the highs and to tell people about what it's like on the other end of that when you do have a neurodivergent affirming perspective when you do, when you are committed to, as I am re parenting my younger self and healing some of the wounds, some of them honestly self inflicted, you know, around self limiting beliefs and trauma responses that I took on when I was navigating neurodominant spaces and things I told myself and, you know, things that I did and how do I heal that younger part of me and then so doing allow for more space and more joy and more affirming experiences in my workplaces. And it's difficult to describe the beauty and the joy and the grief and the healing that comes from that commitment. Right. And I think that especially audio wise, I think people are always, you know, very kind when they share that like a good public speaker. And you know, that may be true, but I am much more, I think, eloquent in writing. I think it's part of how my autism shows up is that for me, writing has always been my, my, my go to. And so writing about these ideas and these perspectives helps me to reach an audience that doesn't work for me. So they'll go through their managers. It's like this person is talking about this in a way that no one else is. And this person has shared such beautiful affirming language and offers such interesting frameworks. We need to have this person come in. And I've been very blessed that that's been the bulk of my work. And I'm also very strategic around when people book on my website, I asked them explicitly, is the decision maker going to be on this call?

B (21:45)

Smart.

A (21:46)

Because as you and I both probably know, oftentimes it's a game of cat and mouse where, you know, the person who's not the decision maker is falling in love with this and they're gassing you up and talking about how amazing you are. And then when it comes time to it, you know, one hand is saying something and the other hand is not. And then the decision maker doesn't believe in the vision or, you know, and then just follows through. I have ways for making sure that I don't that doesn't happen. But I've learned a good amount.

B (22:14)

Let's take a quick break and when we come back, let's talk about some of the common things that happen in the workplace where miscommunication occurs and how we can use a model that I think you came up with, the 4D model of Neuro inclusive communication. How we can use that to address some of the miscommunication that often seen especially among neurodiverse teams. So we will be right back. Support for this podcast, as always, comes from ADHD rewireds coaching and accountability groups. Spring is a season of growth, so why not invest in yours? ADHD rewires coaching and accountability groups 40th season is coming up April 24th through June 19th and we're now accepting pre registration submissions. If you've been thinking about joining for a while, here's something to keep in mind. Last season, in the spirit of Energize Sustainably, which is my theme for the year, I experimented by reducing our registration cycle from six weeks to two weeks and we had such great results that we're doing it again. We streamlined registration to only two events over two weeks. That means fewer chances to sign up, so don't wait. And here's the best part. When you register at the first registration event or kickoff event, you'll get exclusive discounted pricing. Don't miss your chance to save big while securing your spot in this transformational coaching experience. The registration events are on March 27th at 1pm Pacific and April 2nd at 10am Pacific. Don't wait. Take the first step today. Head to coachingrewired.com and get on our interest list Now. Once you confirm your email address, you'll receive access and directions for what you'll need to do to complete your pre registration requirements. Spring forward into growth and let's do this together. Go to coachingrewired.com that's coaching rewired.com hey, looking for a little bit of structure? Some support with your focus? Need just a little bit of accountability? Well, welcome to Adult Study Hall. Hey, if you struggle with getting things done all on your own, Adult Study hall or ASH at ADHD Rewired is here to help. ASH gives you a real time virtual co working space where you can work alongside others who get it. No more feeling stuck or isolated. And starting March 9, we're adding something special. Join our Zentangle Workshop. Led by a certified Zentangle teacher, Zentangle is a mindful, meditative art practice that uses structured patterns to help you relax, focus and spark creativity. And no artistic skills are needed. Just grab some white paper, a pencil and a black pen and you're all set. And the best part? Membership is only $19.99 a month or save 37% with an annual plan for just 150 for the year. Get stuff done. Stay accountable. Find your flow. Join the community that works with you. Sign up now@adultstudyhall.com that's adult studyhall.com and start working, writing, doing laundry, cleaning or zentangling with us all@adultstudyhall.com I'll see you there. Just a quick reminder that you can still join me and the ADHD Rewired coaches each month for an hour of live Q and a every second Tuesday of the month at 10:30am Pacific, 1:30pm Eastern. You can register at ADHD Rewired.com events. That's ADHD Rewired.com.com events. All right, let's get back to the episode. We are back. All right, so let's talk about how do we reduce communication challenges, especially among neurodiverse teams? I know. You know, for years, as I was growing, my team at ADHD rewired, the thing that I didn't fully expect was how hard it actually is to be a good communicator on a team, you know, because it's like I just wish that people could know all the thoughts that were in my head and if I told one person something that it can just somehow magically get spread to the rest of the team. Unfortunately, doesn't work that way.

A (26:52)

Yes. I think you're talking about what is called meta communication, Right? So it's thinking about how we communicate. Sort of think about the metacognition, thinking about how you think. Meta communication is thinking about how we think and really being thoughtful and intentional about it. I came up with the model, the 4D model of Neuro inclusive communication. Interestingly enough, when I come home, a lot of my good ideas, which is when my spouse and I go walking in nature or go hiking, when we're actually interestingly away from other people and it's quiet, there's nothing but nature to enrich and support us as we're receiving all that nature has to provide. And I think for me, as an autistic person, as somebody who lives with adhd, and this guy can look, I've always been told that I'm a bad communicator, and I internalized that at some point. And so I worked really hard at learning how to be a good communicator. This is when I was a kid, right? So reading, you know, Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul and Seven Habits for Successful People for Teenagers, I was always receiving, you know, part of this is my race and growing up in Indiana and being, you know, not allowed to be my full, queer, gender expressive self. You know, I was hyper aware that I was being surveilled and that I was found to be wanting, right? I was always receiving these negative bits of feedback. And there's a lot of research around that, around. People who have adhd, especially children, receive much more negative feedback than they do positive. They take on these internalized narratives about who they are, who they're not, and how bad of a communicator they are. And fortunately, in the last few years especially, we're seeing a lot more research that really demonstrates that goes against the idea that neurodivergent people are negative speakers, are not necessarily good speakers. There was one study that showed that the assumption is people who are autistic are not great speakers or not good communicators. They thought, well, if nobody is able to understand autistic people, then it should be that when two people who are autistic come into the same room and we hear them communicate and we watch their interactions, and when we assess afterward, then they should also not understand what they're saying. But the opposite was found to be true. Autistic people understand autistic people. People with ADHD clearly understand people with adhd. And so I was thinking to myself, if we're currently in workplaces trying to get people who are neurodivergent to speak in neurodominant ways. And there's been a little bit, not nearly as much, not nearly in the same record, but there's been a little bit more work on how do we get neurodominant people to think more neurodivergently or to sort of communicate more neurodivergently. And I thought to myself, that's really, really difficult to do on either end. And it's also going to leave one or one or two groups to be very frustrated because you're essentially asking one of them to mask or to take on another way of looking at things. And so I came up with a framework and a starting place that's flexible that I have used with different clients and different partners. And essentially the idea is, how do we get not neurotypically neurodominant people to think more neurodivergently or neurodivergent people to think more neurodominally? How do we get neurodiverse community, which is every community, honestly, when you have two people in a room, that's a neurodiverse room, people think neurodiverse means neurodiversion, but neurodiverse just means diversity in ways that our neural system are. Our nervous system works. That's another thing I want to clarify is that people think neurodiversity means the brain, right? It means the nervous system, right? So, like, it's not just your mind, it's also your whole body, right? And so the model is really simple. It's how do we get people to think more and communicate more deliberately, which is the first D descriptively, second d directly. Right. Third D and then in more diverse ways, which is the fourth D. Right. So when you say 4D model, the 4D ways of communicating are, as a team, how do we come together and decide how to communicate descriptively, deliberately, diversely and directly. And some of those are, on their face, easy to understand. Being more descriptive, maybe being more deliberate. Okay. But being more diverse and being more direct is where it gets a little more complicated for some people, especially when you factor in cultural diversity and different ways of communicating, where the assumption is that some people from other parts of the world speak in very indirect ways and other people speak in very direct ways. And there's also some complexity around that. Research is like, who's the one assessing this? And how are we defining direct communication? But all that to say that I found, at least in my work with other clients, it has been a breath of fresh air to give people something that they can work towards. Because so much of quote, unquote, I don't describe myself as a DEI practitioner. I talk about what I talk about. But if you're in the DI space and let's all come together and learn what not to do, let's learn how not to do a microaggression, let's learn how not to act unbiased, let's learn how not to let this discrimination take place. And at the end of that, you have been said, you've been told a lot of things, maybe you've been given some statistics, that's lovely. And now you're thinking to yourself, okay, that's great. Now what? I'm so glad that I now know not how to microaggress, because that's not. How do I build a skill towards something that's helpful in my role. And I think that for me, in my experience working with other clients, the 40 model gives people something that they can work towards, isn't an affirmated goal, and it's also flexible enough it can match it to the needs of their community.

B (32:40)

So let me take us into one of these. So we said one of them was descriptive.

A (32:45)

Yes.

B (32:45)

So are you saying just add more of what you're looking for? Like, what does this mean, being descriptive?

A (32:51)

So descriptive is really about acknowledging the cognitive bandwidth that often is extended by neurodivergent people and trying to understand what neurodominant people. So part of it is not just like describing what you want, or here's an example, but also being very clear about what it is that you're doing and moving away from jargon. So like, kill one bird, kill with what? What are we doing? I don't know how many times I've heard they get more flies with amazing. Are we getting flies? Is there a pet frog involved? What are we doing? So people who are autistic and other people who are neurodivergent, not just people who are neurodivergent obviously, but people who are neurodivergent mean, what's going on? What are we doing? And because we never tell people what we mean, we just expect them to understand somebody. We expect someone to run a race, right? It's a two legged, three legged race, but one of them is definitely is at the starting line. Right. And how are you supposed to win the race when people aren't on the same page? So when I say being more descriptive, it is, yes, describing in detail even how we're going to communicate. When are we going to communicate? Is there research to back up why we're doing it this way? What's the most effective way of communicating? And for me, communication is essentially a strategy to really unpack that. I got to talk about what I call the strategy slide, which is the components of a strategy are the space that you're currently existing. And let's say it's a relationship, let's say it's a school, a workplace, a place of worship, what have you. That's the space. A space comes with a particular set of parameters, right? You can do some things in church that you can't do at home, and there are some things you can do in your place of work that you can't do at a pub. There are space constraints and of course they extend beyond that to a nation or a city or a continent, you know, what have you. And then there's the spirit, which is the motivation, the aspiration, the feeling that you want to elicit at the end of it, right? And then there are the specific actions, tactics, behaviors, words that can be done. And so I help people talk about building a strategy where you in awareness of the space that you are currently existing in, what's possible, what's not possible, in alignment with the spirit of what you're trying to get towards, which specific actions that place in the right context, in the right order are most likely to get you to that spirit, that outcome that you want to get to. And for me, in my work, communication is a key strategic tool. So when I tell people how do we want to communicate, it is which communication is best for this context. And when I say space, it would be who's in the room, who's A part of the community. What has been worked in the past. Are we going to be using Slack? The short answer is no. Slack is not very effective.

B (35:48)

Say more about that.

A (35:50)

Slack is like little part of social media. A little part. Not professional, but also personal, independent and private, but also public. There's attachments. It's overstimulating. When you log into Slack, you're not sure what you're going to get. And so there's research around, especially for neurodivergent people. There's like a pause, you know, like a deep breath. Okay, let's look ahead when we open it. Because we're not sure what we're going to be inundated with. And there's been research around, in contrast to Instagram or Facebook, where there's a little bit of a dopamine hit, there's a little bit of dopamine hit when you see a little notification. Oh, and distract you. And it kind of distracts your way. There's an evidence of when people are here to see a slight notification, there's a little bit of cortisol, like it's secreted. Just a little bit of stress, just a little bit of a hard jump, right? Because you're not sure what it is, right. And it's similar to when a boss comes by, your post says, hey, can I have a minute? And they don't just say anything. Like, they don't say, hey, it's not anything bad, right? Can I just have it? Can I get your thoughts right? You know, so it slacks a little bit like that. But during the whole day and after work, if you keep notifications off, I.

B (36:56)

Always just tell people, like, unless your boss, like forbids you from turning those notifications off, like, just put on your, put on your slack. Like when you will check slack. And when you're not, it's not in that time, assume that your notifications are off and slack is closed.

A (37:10)

And especially because people, especially people who are autistic, there's a longer window of being able to transition from thing to thing. So when we have. So as much as you possibly can, reduce the likelihood of interruptions. Because when you get distracted, more so than neurodominant people, it will take you more mental and physical bandwidth to effectively transition. It is the way you came before.

B (37:34)

You know, transitions are just, you know, smooth transitions are challenging. You know, have one night, like you're. You're focused on something and someone, you know, interrupts your train of thought. Who the hell knows if that thought's coming back?

A (37:47)

I know I know. So you know, going back to the model, it's, it's, it's really, really helpful because it helps people not just move away from what they don't want to do. It gives them sort of space. What I find really effective and helpful is it lowers the temperature. So many times when I go into these meetings people are, they're activated, they're deeply unsettled. It may be unfortunately the one time that this has ever happened for people in that workplace where we're like, we're having space to have a conversation, sometimes it's in response to that that should not have happened. Right. So I'm sort of balancing like people are kind of angry that they even have to be here and some people don't know why they're doing it and people are feeling like this is time we have had at work, why are we doing this? Right. So I'm trying to sort of smooth out things and part of my neuro mindfulness certification and being a coach in that is I'm aware of the things that cause stress. I help people to relax, to lower the shields, lower the temperature by giving them accessible, clear language and a container, a safe container to explore these ideas. What does it mean to be more direct? What does it mean to communicate in more diverse ways? And I offer them perspectives and I offer them research and the space to do that.

B (38:57)

And when you say more direct, what does more direct mean?

A (39:01)

Yeah, so a lot of it is, you know, some of it is intuitive. Right. So instead of telling Sally to tell Jim to tell John to tell Mike that I, I want him to do something sort of like that scene in Harry Potter reminding, screams I'm not now. Are you trying to use me as a ping pong? We do that especially in spaces and workplaces and cultures where there's very hierarchical communication structures. Right. Tell somebody, tell somebody, tell somebody that this, this thing happening and like telephone. Yeah, it gets changes just a little bit every single time. And you've got to factor in the relationship that the person has, the person telling them that in the context, when are they telling them. So it's, you know, there's been research around, let's say for instance we're going to use a positive example, you're giving someone praise. There's been research that shows that if you've given them praise it should be as quickly or as soon as possible to the thing that they did that rendered or that deserved that praise. Right. So often I, you know, I have spoke, I speak executives, but what we gave people, you Know, a surprise or we gave them a reward and said, well, when did you do it? Only about three or four months afterwards. Okay, well, a lot has happened in three or four months.

B (40:11)

And if you have adhd, I mean, that's, that's an eternity.

A (40:16)

Right? And so we're like, wait, what, what are we getting rewards for? What are we doing this? Right? Oh, you. We had a great quarter three years ago, so we're going to have a pizza party. And I said, well, what, huh? Right. So have it as quickly as you possibly can. So when I say direct, it's not just, you know, barging into somebody's office and telling them what's what it is sitting them down, having, hey, you know, I have some thoughts about this and I wanted to come to you directly because I respect our relationship and these are my thoughts. And I wasn't quite sure what this message meant. I wanted to get a clarity because it's important that we understand each other. And so there's a way to sort of. That I help coach managers, especially around communicating in direct ways that are not fear based and show them. Actually, on the other hand, evidence shows that when you do it, when you're communicating this way, you build trust. There's an acronym that I love called cred, which is Credibility Enhancing Display. Oftentimes when a manager is frustrated or they're struggling with something, I tell them, say that you don't have to tell them all the details. You don't have to tell them everything. Just say, sorry, y', all, this mandate came from a pie. I didn't know anything about it. I had to make a quick decision. I would have loved to get your thoughts and your input, but, you know, there was a quick turnaround. What we're going to do in advance of that is the next time this happens, I'm going to come to you and we're going to have a conversation about it.

B (41:40)

What do you do in that moment when someone needs to respond to something like this? How do you help people communicate effectively when they can hear what you're saying and understand it and nod their head along saying this makes sense and then they are presented with an actual life situation?

A (42:00)

Yes. I think, I feel my experience is it's not just a matter of how we communicate to other people. It's also a matter of how we communicate with ourselves. So it's not just communicating directly and diversely and instinctively and deliberately with the reports or with people who are, you know, who are higher up in the workplace. Also about how you are describing and communicating with yourself. Are you sure that this is what's happening? Are you sure that's a story that's being told? You have all the information, Are there other options? And so a lot of my work is before you communicate what are you, what's the story you're telling yourself as a manager, as a neurodivergent employee, as somebody who's going to give that big presentation, right? And you want, you want somebody to take it this way. One, you cannot control how they take something, right? All you can do is prepare and sort of create, you know, the tools that you need. The other is a lot of people, when they communicate they're deeply, deeply agitated, right? It's a communication that's reactive and not responsive and that comes with, you know, part of, also factors into the neuro mindfulness approaches. How do we be rooted? How do we feel settled? How do we get clear about what our strength is, what our power is in this moment? And I don't mean power to fire people or fire power to change people's lives. I'm talking about the ability to influence our experience, how we experience what we experience. So it's not just about communicating and hoping that people perceive it some kind of way. It's also what if they don't receive it this way? How is that going to impact you? Are you prepared for that? Communication is, it's a, it's a huge complex web. And even more so when we talk about Neurodiverse which again is everywhere. Every community, because every community is neurodiverse spaces. How do we communicate effectively? And when I say we, I mean the group. How does the group communicate effectively?

B (44:00)

So what are like if you, if you were to look at sort of your typical, I don't know, mid sized company that maybe you'd go in and, and do some work with. What are some of the more common challenges you see and what has been most readily adopted? Maybe from some of your, some of the trainings and stuff that you've done.

A (44:20)

That's tough to say mostly because people are hesitant to talk about their problems and challenges. There's a lot of. I think I will say this when I'm speaking to communities abroad, communities that are outside of the West. There's less reticence and less hesitance. There's not a lot of psychological safety in western companies because they're hyper competitive, hyper masculine and we've sort of taken on the attitude don't air your dirty laundry, don't let them see you sweat. You know, people can Use information.

B (44:55)

Keep on that mask.

A (44:57)

Yes, yes. Keeping a stiff upper lip and all that. And I don't work with people who don't tell me the truth. People often will say, well, you know, I can't believe you're working with this company or this organization because they did this terrible thing. And I was like, no, no, I'm working with them because they did this terrible thing. Right. Like, they don't really. You don't get better, you don't go to the doctor or you don't get better, you don't go change. You don't make a big change until you hit rock bottom. And things get really, really spicy. Things get really, really. Because they know they have to make a change and they know that it's necessary to make improvements. That's good. Yeah.

B (45:35)

What has been most readily accessible to companies.

A (45:38)

Companies want what I call the. I mentioned specifics. They want the list of words to know so they don't get canceled. That's what they want. They want, like, a very, like, accessible guide. If this, then that. Right. The specific steps. And much of my work is actually more focused on the spirit. What are we doing this for? So how do we want people to.

B (45:58)

Feel so less about how do we prevent ourselves from getting sued and more about how do we actually connect with each other as human beings?

A (46:06)

Yep. That's the root of all this. It's all about relationships. It's all about demonstrating care. It's all about how do we make sure that we are doing this in a way that is affirming and is inclusive. One example I always give is we all know those people who. We love them down. We love them to death. And they may say something that's a little bit out of pocket, just a little bit outdated. And you don't assume. You offer them the benefit of the doubt. You don't assume the worst. You say, hey, grandma. Hey, loved one. I know you use this phrase. You know, we were moving away from that. Here's another alternative. Right. We know you didn't mean the worst. Right. That person, you know, blessed their soul is using the wrong specific word or terminology, and their spirit is in the right place. Oftentimes, though, the opposite is true, where people will say the specific things in the right way. They know exactly what to say. They know exactly how to say it. They thought about the process. Right. It's very methodical, very sterile, very calculated. And because they have done no work to build up that spiritual bank, as you were, they're trying to get a deposit that they can't cash because they haven't deposited that in that good feeling, that care, that demonstration of respect, of dignity. And they're communicating a way that they want people to feel like they're being trusted, that they're being valued and they're appreciated and they say the right things, but the spirit is not coming to them. And that's a lot of what my work is. Okay, so why is that? What has worked in the past? Are there examples that have worked in this particular context? You know, and it's tough for some people. This is why. This isn't for the faint of heart. Yeah, we can do that. We can do that. We can do the specifics all day long. Right. But it's not going to work. If you have the specifics, but not the right spirit and in the right context, the right space, it's not going to work. Every single part of that is important. Do you know the space that you're in? Do you really know the space you're in? Do you have a clear and realistic spirit in mind, like effect or feeling among the people and what are the specific actions or steps that we can take and how do we do that in the right way?

B (48:24)

Do you have a sense, even if it's just an intuitive one, that sort of our relationship just with work in general is changing?

A (48:34)

Of course. Yeah. And like, especially after Covid, after, you know, 2020, when so many of us were incurred, let's just say that to work from home for a couple of years and then profits were never higher. Never higher. Right. For the companies, so many of us were told we were essential and we took on that sacrifice. Many people, unfortunately, did not make it through that sacrifice. Right. We lost, especially in the context of America, we lost a million people. And then we never truly grieved that. We never truly acknowledged the weight of the psychological impact of that. And in fact, a lot of people still have a long Covid. Yeah, we don't. We don't even allow space for those people to share their experiences or their difficulties. What that looks like. Workplaces have been really remiss to actually provide accommodations for people living with long Covid. And that's really, really difficult. And there hasn't been as much will to acknowledge that. And I think the other part of it is that for people who have unearned disadvantages, let's say you're a woman, let's say you're a person of color, let's say you're disabled, you're a neurodivergent working from home or Working outside the workplace. A lot of them report more positive experiences. Because the workplace as it currently is designed is not shaped in a way to meet the basic needs of many people who have honor and disadvantages. We just use like air conditioning, for example. Air conditioning, as most people would probably know in workplace and offices is tabulated to match the needs of middle aged men.

B (50:12)

I've recently heard about this. Yes, yes.

A (50:15)

Right. So like women are walking around freezing, like wearing blankets or you know, or especially if you're going to menopause, like what is going on? And they go, well, it is what it is. But people are. Because they lack a understanding of systemic and social ways of understanding dynamics and workplaces and the cultural, the space that you're in. We instead encourage a hyper individualistic approach. It must be you. Even the way we talk about accommodations, it's. You have to get accommodations instead of the workplace is providing benefits that will help almost all people, if not all people be able to equally engage at work, which is to the advantage of the workplace.

B (50:58)

Absolutely.

A (50:59)

On the workplace.

B (51:00)

Absolutely. We're still sort of stuck in this like factory productivity mindset. And it's like, especially if you're doing knowledge work, like measures stuff that way, like it just doesn't. It's not comparing apples to apples. Right. It is a different mindset. And I don't think that we have caught up yet with how do we actually have a healthy and productive workplace. And I think it's critical that those two are together like that we are not separating those. And I think, you know, as. And may maybe as neurodivergent people. We're, we're the canaries in the coal mine. We're, we're the ones that, that notice the problem first as it affects us most and affects us first.

A (51:40)

Yeah, yeah.

B (51:41)

I mean with well, well being and work, work, work should be joyous if, if we have the opportunity to do joyous work.

A (51:47)

Yes.

B (51:48)

But if we are doing it in a way like in, you know, I, I'm. We're recording this on October 8, 2024. You know, I haven't released a lot of episodes lately. I've been kind of, you know, working through a lot of my own burnout, which I have, you know, just in the last, you know, kind of couple months realized how much I have been masking, trying to produce so much and stay on top of everything. And, and it was just this kind of this realization of I've been doing this for the online stuff for 10 years and I've been sprinting for 10 years, right. And, you know, years back, I'm like, I'm feeling a little burnt out, but this is inconvenient, so I'm gonna just shove that down and let's go for another route. And, you know, I've been doing that over and over again and it's. It's kind of just like hitting like a ton of brakes because it's not sustainable, you know? And so hopefully, hopefully this, this move towards wellness and better balance and a more inclusive environment, hopefully work, but also in all the, all the spaces that we are in is the direction that we are going. Because I don't think that the current trend is sustainable for anybody.

A (52:55)

The planet, people, families. It's not an accident that we're seeing so much like, oh, if things breaking down, things falling apart, it's like, or. Or what if they're falling into place? Ooh. Oh, I like that.

B (53:09)

Let's end that there. Chris, where can people reach you if they are interested in working with you?

A (53:14)

Yeah, thank you, Eric. They can find me on chrishooten consulting dot com. Just type in Chris Hooten Consulting and you will be the first person to show up, see my beautiful smile. You can also Find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. All Chris Hooten Consulting or Chris Hooten for Instagram.

B (53:31)

Chris, thank you so much. This was a pleasure.

A (53:33)

Thank you for having me.

B (53:35)

I want to thank Chris Hooten for today's conversation and I want to thank you for tuning in and making it to the end. If you like what you heard today, consider sharing this episode with someone that you think would benefit from it. If you really liked today's episode, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcast or any podcast app that accepts reviews. And if you loved it and you want to support the work that I'm doing, consider becoming a patron at. @patreon.com ADHD Rewired. This is Eric Tivers reminding you that you are more than enough.