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- [00:00]
A
To answer the question, why do you need a label? Because there is comfort in knowing you're a normal zebra and not a strange horse. Because you can't find community with other zebras if you don't know that you belong. And because it is impossible for a zebra to be happy or healthy, spending its life feeling like a failed horse.
- [00:18]
B
ADHD rewired episode number 562. This is the show for adults with ADHD or ADHD. Very good intentions, but it's slightly wandering attention. My name is Eric Kivers. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and an ADHD clinical services provider. And I have ADHD and autism. I'm joined today with Brian Antler. He's one of our ADHD rewired coaches. And we're doing our live Q and A today. We're doing this as a live read, even this intro here because I want to get you an episode out. So hopefully you are hearing this shortly after we recorded this. You can learn more about everything we do at our website@adhd rewired.com all right, Mr. Brian Antler, how's it going?
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A
It's going very well. How about you? I am busy. Busy, but good, good.
- [01:15]
B
It's. It has been a minute especially. We were supposed to do this last month, but then I realized I had like the wrong link or something. So, like, nobody had a way to even get into it. So I just decided, head, let's just push it a month. And here we are.
- [01:28]
A
All right. Adapting, Pivoting.
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B
Yes. And you are in the final week of your coaching of the coaching season right now. And how. How has it been going?
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A
Yeah, arc season 43. 43 seasons. It's been going. It's been going really well. I have a really great group. I mean, they're all great groups. They all have their own special characteristics. But it's been a really great journey over the last seven and a half weeks.
- [01:53]
B
Awesome. Awesome. All right, so let's go ahead and dive into some questions again. If you are just joining us, you can put your questions in the Q and A button. And if you've recently updated your zoom client, it'll click on the more button. It'll. You'll see a little button that says Q and A. Put it there. And then also go live if you are open and willing to have a to dialogue with us so we can get your audio here. All right, so let's start with Arkin's question. And yes, if you are in coaching and therapy, how would you use both spaces for the same Problem. Can you talk through an example like job hunting or whatever, and how you would best utilize the two spaces? So that's an interesting question. You know, I think primarily, you know, I think because I have a number of clients that I, that I work with one on one, who, you know, whether they see me as a coach or as a therapist, then have a, either coach or therapist outside, you know, with. As a coach, we are looking at execution and implementation like that's our biggest sort of thing. Right? Whereas a therapist, we're doing a lot more of the, the emotional processing right now. You know, a lot of people say, like, there's this line between therapy and coaching. And I'm going to tell you and make the actual matter of it, it's a murky, big gray area. Right? But I think when we get into sort of processing stuff in childhood, that's like clearly therapy territory. But it's really about how do we do the thing that we are intending on doing. So even if that's like, let's say your, your therapist gives you therapy homework. Okay. I mean, that's the whole reason I started the coaching groups, because I was given therapy homework as a client and I wasn't doing it. And if I did do it, it was in the parking lot 20 minutes before my next therapy session. Right. And so what would have been great at that time if I could have had a coach that I could check in with and be like, all right, so how's that therapy homework going? All right, so that's really. That it's, you know, coaching so much is about action orientation. I think where there's some more of the gray area when you're dealing with values, when you're dealing with stuff around maybe burnout some stuff, or even around the actions, around emotional self regulation on how to sort of manage some of those things. Brian, what's, what's your thought? Because I think you've been, if I recall, you've been in both.
- [04:18]
A
Oh, yes, I, I have been in both. I am currently in therapy and I am coaching. And I would agree with your kind of, your dissection of it. Like you work with therapy. I would expect to be more focused on the emotional underpinnings. If we're going to use the example of job searching and I'm going to, I can speak to my own experience because I've spoken to my own therapist about that. That's where I might examine mindset. What is preventing me from going after jobs? What is preventing me from feeling confident going after jobs? What is what are the issues that are related around that? What are the stresses provided? Those would be really good material for a therapeutic relationship. Like, why do you feel like you're not taking action? But I wouldn't expect the therapist to necessarily like, okay, let's jump in and make a plan. What are the actions that support your job searching? That being said, I don't think you can separate the action plans from the emotions because anytime we make it, when I wondering the word from coaching and from being a coach is that anytime you try to prescribe a course of action or prescribe homework, we call it growth work. And our coaching program to take some of that, that, that, that gravity away from it without considering the old emotional underpinnings, then you are, you're working against something very powerful if you are not taking the emotional. So the, the, in coaching, the emotional underpinnings and the action plans and the, those kind of steps cannot be separated, but they can be separated a little bit more. And I would expect it to be separated a little bit more in therapy. I wouldn't like, my therapist doesn't talk to me about like, okay, so what are you doing this week with your follow ups and your, your networking calls? But little bit be more like, oh, how do you feel about making networking calls? Why do you avoid making networking calls?
- [06:03]
B
Yeah, kind of what comes up for you? How can we increase that window of tolerance for that discomfort? You know, another thing too is if, you know, looking at, if I'm, I'm working with a coaching client and there is some therapy stuff that's coming up, I might ask them. All right, so when's your next appointment with your therapist? Because this sounds like a really good topic to explore with your therapist. And then I would ask a coaching question about like, all right, so what's going to help you ensure that you bring it up at your next session? All right. And so sometimes I, you know, some, some of my clients, I have therapists who like, I, I'm fine with receiving texts. I always tell my clients that like you can text me in between sessions. I'll probably just give you a thumbs up emoji to let you know I've seen it, but I'm not going to really respond until we can discuss it in session. And so I know that more, not all therapists do this, but I know more and more therapists. It seems like at least those that are working with neurodivergent clients are okay with their clients sending them texts because it's easier for their client. Okay. And I know that. I just got a text from Kristen. She had a client run late, so she's coming.
- [07:11]
A
And that being said, I think that therapy and coaching can go together very well synergistically. Work with. You could bring your. If you're running into coaching. And I'm like, oh, man, I set these goals with my coach and I'm just stopped. I'm procrastinating. I'm taking action. Take those emotional issues to the therapy and work them and work on them there. And then also I think, like, kind of vice versa. Come bring to your coach and be like, yeah, I. In therapy, I realize I have awareness that I am resisting doing these things for an emotional reason. That's a great thing to bring to coaching because, hey, let's talk about how to support that. Let's talk about what actions it translates into. How do we make space for that? How do we build scaffolding around that with action plans.
- [07:52]
B
Awesome. So I hope that helped answer that question. Okay, let me go. I wanted to actually look something up for one of the questions. I'm going to go to the next question. Question is, can you talk about your understanding of monotropism versus other challenges people with ADHD have switching tasks and juggling priorities? Sure. So I'm not sure whose question that was, and if you're able to go live, let me know. So monotropism and I actually did a whole episode about this maybe about a year and a half ago. I think the title of it was called Tunnel of Focus. It was with Matea. She hosts the Flourishing with Audi HD podcast. And this was a concept that she actually introduced to me. I had actually not known about this until we had a conversation about this when we were talking about the differences between hyperfocus and monotropism, where monotropism is more of an example. Actually, I had a discussion with a client this week or last week about this, where hyper focus, let's say you're into audiobooks or. Or books, right? So hyperfocus might be you spend like eight hours binging a book. That might be hyperfocus. Monot tropism might be you spend an entire year reading or listening to books on one topic. But so, and this came up because I was sharing with my therapist at the time about the way I listen to audiobooks. And I said, you can know, like, I love looking through my Audible library because I've been using audible for about 13 years. And you can always tell what was going on in my life because there'll be like A year or two of like all books about a specific topic and then it goes to another topic. And my therapist made a very sort of just off the cuff comments like that's a very autistic way to, to approach. And we had been exploring autism. I had not yet been formally diagnosed at that point. But that monotropism is, is really that like more of that tunnel visions. And I think it's more of a pervasive characteristic versus just like a sort of a session. You're not going to have a monotropic session per se, or you could have a mono. Or you can have a hyper focused sort of session. That's my understanding of it. I hope that that helps. There's another part of that about task switching. I mean, I think that both, like even in both scenarios, I think task switching can still be challenging because I, you know, even thinking about my own stuff, using that example of. Okay, so I've been listening to a whole series of books on a certain topic. I actually get a little uncomfortable when I think about going to a different topic that's outside of what I was. Have been listening to. But it's a, it is an interesting thing to be more aware of. And I think too, it's like if we can think about like why understanding those differences can be really, really helpful. Think about contract workers. Sometimes people who might do contract work who have a more monotropic tendency is that they can get laser focused for maybe a few months on a project and then they're done and then they go to the next project. Right. Where hyper focus can be like you're kind of going in too deep to a particular task or project at a given sitting. Okay. All right, let's. So I hope that that answered that one. All right, next question. Oh, and from Carla. And she says she's willing to go live. So let me first read the question and then I'll pull you up live. Why do doctors only test diagnose children with autism at a young age, but won't test or diagnose children with adhd? What if the parents suspect it are both present? All right, let me bring you up here. Allow to talk.
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C
Hey, Carla, longtime listener and I've called before.
- [12:15]
A
We know Carla very well. Hi, Carla.
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C
Hi. Thank you for having a session on Audihd because I have had questions about this. I have family members and know plenty of people who have autism or are on the autism spectrum and have myself, I have ADHD and other family members who have not been diagnosed. But come on, I see them. We are very similar to each other. So one of the things that has come up with my own son is that he is young. He's four years old. He does struggle with focus in a way that isn't just like struggling to focus, but can be disruptive to the people around him sometimes. And I've also noticed some sensitivities around touch, around sound, and also kind of sensory seeking actions. And when I try to talk to the doctor about the behaviors related to what I think are adhd, it just kind of gets dismissed. And then I mentioned, oh, and also, you know, he doesn't like loud noises or he walks into a room and just shuts down if he sees that there's a lot of loud kids. And to be fair, my kid is the loud kid most of the time, but if he's in a group of loud kids, it's too much.
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B
It's all good. My kid's the same way.
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C
Yeah, okay.
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B
He's allowed one, and he gets. It's too much when there's a lot of loud people around.
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C
Yeah. So I, I, I, when I brought that up, that's when they finally were willing to work with me on the auditory part. But I just can't see why they would separate these two qualities and why we can't work on both at the same time. Am I talking to the wrong doctor? The wrong professional? I don't know what your input is on this.
- [14:21]
B
I always say, trust your gut and seek other opinions if, if you're educated, awareness of what you're kind of looking at is counter to what your doctor is saying. And it'll be interesting. As, you know, RDHD is becoming more commonly diagnosed. You know, it's funny because I used to say for the longest time that it's, you know, sensory issues are the feature of ADHD that nobody's really talking about. And, you know, then I hear some people start talking about it, but maybe sensory issues around ADHD isn't talked about because it's more of an autism issue. Now, I've heard both sides of it, and I brought this up with other people, and we've, you know, the other side, but, like, we don't actually have quality research that really differentiates these two out. And so it's like, I always think that assume, you know, we're dealing with sensitive nervous systems, whether it's with ADHD or autism. Right. And so it's like, at the end of the day, what we need to address is functional impairment. Right. And then be able to modify the environment accordingly to Accommodate functional impairment. Because it's like, what do you do for someone with adhd? What do you do for someone with autism? Well, I don't. That is an unanswerable question because I need to know what that individual person's challenges are in order to know how to best address the issues. Does that make sense?
- [15:55]
C
Yeah. And actually that's an interesting way of framing this around the functional impairment, because the functional impairment of, like, that a child might display if they're diagnosed with autism might come up sooner than some of the educational ones that come up with adhd. And my child has been in daycare for a while and so he's been doing a lot of educational, item. Educational activities. So I just figured not every child does those kind of attention, focus development things or takes, you know, for example, swim classes where he has to focus or else he could drown or, you know, distract other people and cause safety issues for other children who also don't know how to swim. But yeah, thank you for that.
- [16:50]
B
And I would say too, like, that particular issue of your kid not know how to swim, like getting him lessons is so important. Important. The number one cause of accidental death for kids with autism is drowning. So please make sure your kids don't want to swim. When we moved in to my house, where I'm at now, our neighbors were. Their house was basically like repossessed, but the bank was still letting them live in there and they had a pool that was basically gross and they weren't even using. And it was just like basically a big mosquito magnet. And I, like the first day I called the village and I was like, there was no fence. Cause I guess the previous neighbors were friends and so they would always just kind of get, I guess go back and forth to each other's place. But I was like, I. I don't even care if I'm gonna make it. Any of my neighbor, like, my kid's autistic. He sometimes wanders and we gotta get that fence up, like day one. And so I did. And that's. That's what happened. Yeah, it's. It's a really important thing. And then we were able to, when he was younger, get. Get him swim lessons at our local jcc specifically for kids with autism. And it was amazing. And now it's like he loves, loves the water and he loves being in the water, except for if it's raining, he doesn't like that. So he can't quite figure out, like, how come he loves showers and baths but not the rain.
- [18:13]
C
Why jump into the Pool. When the pool is coming to you,
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B
like you first thought, if it's, he thinks it's gonna rain you. Once I caught with me on a bike ride and yeah, or rain down pretty hard. And like you thought it was actually kind of adventurous and fun, as did I. But it's more of that anticipatory anxiety around that sensory experience. So. Yeah, talk to other doctors too and share, share your concerns with, with your doc.
- [18:43]
A
Yeah. And if I might add something, I mean, I'm not very well versed on because I have not had a child or have tried to have anyone diagnosed recently. But I am aware that there's a pretty significant lag time or there can be between what is. We are very obviously focused on ADHD and adhd, but doctors, you know, they're very busy people. They may not be up to speed on the most recent research. Sometimes we have to be an advocate and an educator, even with our care providers. Just ask them, so what before just saying, oh, I think these are my concerns. And maybe ask them like, oh, how, like what is your awareness of the current research on adhd? Because, you know, every time the DSM comes out with a new model doesn't mean the doctors sit down and read all 2,000 pages or they're, if they're not specifically specializing, that they may not be up to speed on the most recent research. And even if they are specialists, they may not be up to speed on their most research. I would say don't be afraid to be an advocate and say, well, this is what's going on. I'm aware of this. And be like a gentle educator.
- [19:45]
B
I love the way he posed that question. He said, what is your awareness on the current research? Like that's, that's a great, like non threatening open way to ask that kind of question.
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A
Yeah, it's not saying what do you know? Are you, that's not saying are you qualified? It's saying what is your awareness on the most current research? Because it kind of gives them an out to say, oh, I didn't know there was new research. Let me look into that.
- [20:12]
B
Yeah. And if like, and I know some people will bring in, you know, research killer doctors. And I would say if your doctor says thank you and is willing to read it, that's wonderful. You know, obviously doctors are busy people, so if you're going to bring something in it shortish to increase the chances that they'll actually read it. All right, we got Kristen who just joined us. We had a client session that went long. Kristen, how are You.
- [20:43]
D
There it goes. It wouldn't unmute. Okay. I'm actually kind of tired because we. I got my mother in law a gift for Christmas that happened this weekend. Um, she used to be a first grade teacher. And so we drove up to Columbia, Missouri and had a great fun ADHD story around that to see the Board Teachers comedy Tour. So if you. If you're on Facebook and I'm sure they're on Instagram and the other things, but it is teachers who've become comedians around what they do and what they experience and it's freaking hilarious. It's so funny.
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B
That sounds like a hoot.
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D
Yeah. Yeah. So. But she's doesn't really drive long distances and so extra tired because somehow Siri didn't talk to me. And we missed a turn. We took the long scenic route through St. Louis to get to Columbia and it doubled the time. We left at 1pm here in Little Rock and it was supposed to take six and a half hours and we didn't get there till midnight. We were crossing Mississippi and she goes, why are we crossing the Mississippi River?
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B
I don't know. So you weren't using the gps?
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D
I was, but my. And I had it even set up and turned on and it wouldn't talk. It wasn't talking to me. And I didn't know. Oh, you know, it wasn't talking to me. Yeah. So then we turned on her phone and it was talking to us. Yeah. So got home better, but yeah, it was a lot.
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B
I still often wonder how anyone got anywhere before gpss.
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D
I was sitting there going, I wish I had my physical map because I was better with that. Anyway.
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B
I remember my. When I was a kid, my dad had this like big. It was like a Chicago street name book. It was like a really thick book.
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D
Yeah.
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B
I loved looking at everything. Oh, my gosh. It's studying like the grade in Chicago is. I found it fascinating.
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D
And Carla posted to show me what her question was. Did y' all get that answered? About why they wanna test autism early but don't wanna test the ADHD early?
- [22:49]
B
I actually didn't specifically address that, so. Thank you.
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D
Well, my thought is. And it's. It's always preference stuff too. I mean, that's who you can get to do it. But the idea that autism you wanna catch early because you wanna do, you know, that developmental. As soon as you can start plugging things in and they can really see that with adhd, they want things to show up across the board. You know, they want it to show up in More than one area. And a lot of times kids are only going to be at home and possibly at a daycare. So they're really wanting to make sure that this is what we're seeing. And I mean that's, that's my opinion on that. And I think a lot of it is, is they, they don't often have therapists have to be trained specifically for under age 4. So you got to get certain specialist therapists type certification anyway. And they're not going to give meds to anyone younger than that unless, unless
- [23:50]
B
they're like, or their adhes, like in the like most severe, like 1% where like them just literally just existing in the world is dangerous because, because I have worked with people.
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D
Right, yes, that is true. Yeah. But I think, I think that's the biggest thing is that autism. You want this earliest intervention as you can get because it's, it is a developmental delay. However, we know that ADHD is coined as a developmental delay also.
- [24:15]
B
Right.
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D
I think it's about how it shows up. They want to make sure it's not trauma. There are so many overlapping features of it because most of the time they know that parents come in, have had a teacher or the parent themselves are born. Yeah, I want to get a pill in my kid and that. Yeah. And parents.
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B
Here's the thing.
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D
There's that a lot though.
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B
You know, I think that is a myth, by the way, because I don't think anything. No, I know. Right, right. But I don't think there is because even as, like I am very pro meds radh, like, I'm like, try it. Just try it. Like, don't, don't, don't dismiss it until you try it. Right. And when it was time to explore medication for my son, I had a lot of sympathy for all these parents who. And I was like, I get it. Because I was like, I was suddenly I'm like, are we sure this is a good idea?
- [25:06]
D
Exactly.
- [25:08]
B
And when he first started ADHD meds, he actually did not have a good response. It was highly anxious, expressing suicidal ideation. But the thing with the stimulant meds, though, you kind of know pretty quickly how the response is going to be and then you can just pull off.
- [25:23]
D
So that's the best thing about. Yeah, about that.
- [25:25]
B
Then we got him on a, a antidepressant, which was literally, if, I don't know if you believe in miracles, but this was a miracle. Like, it was. He went from, you know, birth to basically age 7 having like meltdowns every single Day, often lasting hours to going two weeks without a single meltdown when he first heard of it. And it was just like, oh my gosh. And then once we had him stable on that, then we reintroduced a stimulant medic medication for adhd and he's doing fantastic.
- [25:53]
D
Yeah. So you, you figured out what are we peeling, what do we need to work? You know, there's that idea of don't put the band aid on, get to the core. However, sometimes we have to do crutches or a cast to get to the core because it might be getting in the way, in the boundary. So. Yeah.
- [26:13]
B
And I'll tell you, when my, when my son was, was really little, let me pediatrician like I was, I was the one that was bringing up the concerns around autism. And his response was, and if you, you know, especially years ago, it's more common. My pediatrician's response was, he's just a boy. They develop differently. I say, okay, that's nice opinion. I'm going to go get a second one. And they get a, like, we went for that full. The. Where do we go? There's like the center for the Childhood Brain at Lexing Brothers and they did like a multi day thing and yeah. You know, so thankfully we got lots of early intervention. And that's kind of goes to the question why early intervention is so important, especially for autism. Because with, with, with interventions for kids with adhd, it's more parent training than it is actually intervening with kids. Okay, let's, let's go to another question before we take a quick break here. Amy asked if, and she's willing to go live. If you haven't previously covered this, what would you say have been the pluses and minuses of getting your diagnosis of autism after knowing your adhd? Okay, let me pull you up here. And yay. One of my favorite topics to talk about diagnosed. Getting diagnosed with autism. Okay. Hi, Amy.
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D
It's.
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E
It's ma, actually.
- [27:40]
B
Say it again.
- [27:42]
E
Amy.
- [27:43]
B
Ma. So kind of like Nye, but like the MA now, like I have multiple competing things in my head. So I'll try to get her MA
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E
rhymes with me, if that helps.
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B
Okay, it helps. Yes, it does. Thank you. All right, so the advantages, the pluses and minuses. Let me start with the minuses.
- [28:10]
E
Yeah.
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B
Depending on what state you live in.
- [28:14]
E
Canada.
- [28:16]
B
Okay. I'm guessing it's less of a concern because here in the, the United States, depending on what state you live in and if their governor is cooperating with the, the man in charge, it can be Put on a state registry for autism, which is.
- [28:37]
D
Yeah.
- [28:38]
B
Crazy to me. Like. Yeah, yeah. So they want, because they want to be able to track. I mean, it's. Yeah. So it is so if that is right.
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E
But I mean, the world is pretty flipping crazy, right?
- [28:52]
B
So it is.
- [28:53]
E
It has crossed my mind for sure.
- [28:58]
B
So, you know, there's depending on where you and I know evaluations, I know in Canada too can be harder to get as well with longer wait lists. But you know, other than that, it has been such a positive experience for me getting that diagnosis and it's been a journey and it's, you know, it definitely has not always been easy, but you know, having this big blind spot was also not easy. Right. I mean, it was so not easy that it led me to the diagnosis, getting evaluated because, you know, I kept having troubles in a lot of my relationships. I have a lot of sensory issues. And I eventually hit like, what I realized was like severe autistic burnout that was literally been taking me years to get through. And I finally, finally start to feel like I'm actually coming out of it. And I know I've talked about before how I like was coming out of it and even now in hindsight I'm like, yeah, I think I was more wanting to believe that I was coming out of it, but I don't think I actually was as much. I think one of the biggest changes for, for me is because all last year I was focusing on not adding things that drama, energy. And where that left me was my, my sort of digging into burnout didn't get any deeper, but I didn't come out very much of it right. So I sort of stopped the bleeding, but there was still a wound. Right. And so this year I'm really focusing on active rest, not just saying no. So, you know, I've been doing. So I am now on day 92 in a row of meditating, which is a freaking miracle. And just to be clear, I'm not actually typically a fan of streak based goals, but for whatever reason, right now it's working for me. Right. So I have 92 days of meditation. I am been. I have like three different journaling apps that I've been using. One for a little more than a month, another for a couple weeks, and then another also for a couple weeks. And I just find doing that on a regular basis has. And it's funny because I have a very love hate relationship with journaling. I kind of hate doing it, but I love the process of how I feel afterwards and the Insights that I gain walks.
- [31:15]
E
Wouldn't it be nice to just jump Right.
- [31:18]
B
Say that again.
- [31:19]
E
Wouldn't it be nice to just jump the process part and get the benefit?
- [31:24]
B
Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like, you know, it's like with all things, if you want to go fast in life, you got to go slow with what you're working on, because if you try to speed it up too fast. I mean, I remember when I first heard emdr, you know, almost three years ago, and I was pushing my therapist, let's just jump right in. I wanted to go faster. And she's like, I think we should slow down. I'm like, oh, but, you know, I'm a therapist. I want to go faster. And then, you know, we did a. We did a NDR session too soon, and I definitely wasn't ready for it. And I totally, like, shut down and dissociated. And so from then I was like, I'm listening to you from now on. I think she kind of realized that I needed to kind of experience that for myself and think she was right. But that self awareness piece about, like, you know, it is given me by knowing that I've had the, like, by discovering this, this basic blind spot and helping me understand that, okay, I have. It's allowed me to slow down on a lot of relationships, like, where I'm kind of checking in with myself more about things. It also, you know, I remember the day that I got that formal, like, the. Yes, that you also have autism. And I, I'm pretty sure I talked about this on a previous episode, but just having this, like, sense of just such self compassion of like, you know, I was, I was 44 at the time, and I was like, oh, my God, I made it this far in life with autism. And I just found out, right? And there's something about that that's like, wow, like, one, look how much I've done with not even knowing that. And two, yeah, now I understand why. So, like, certain things I found so draining to my energy in, in so many different ways. And why different, you know, relationships I had went. Went south. And I was kind of oblivious to it. So it's allowed me to even in, you know, when seeking even new relationships and friendships, like, where I'll even say, like, you know, sometimes I'm not always aware of how I come off. So if I ever say or do something that kind of rubs you the wrong way, like, please bring it up to me, like, because I'm really trying to, like, improve my awareness around how I'm coming off to others. And so that's been a big thing and it's been really like, as I've been doing that more, it's been well received. So. Yeah, I mean it's. I always think that self knowledge is so valuable, but like having a diagnosis, it's just a starting point though, right? You got to figure out what that means for you.
- [33:57]
E
Yeah, I've. The reason that I'm. That I wanted to ask you about it is because I just recently brought it up with my therapist. And I shouldn't say therapist, I should say my. The person that I'm working with is an analyst, which is quite different.
- [34:15]
B
Like a psychoanalyst doing, like Freudian.
- [34:17]
E
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he also happens to be a psychiatrist. And if anyone is listening from Canada to this podcast, this is a very cool little trick. If you don't have enough money, a therapist you can get. If you can find a, a psychoanalyst who is also a psychiatrist and then get a referral from your doctor, you can get it. Well, I don't know if this is true for all provinces. In some provinces you can get it covered by the provincial health care system.
- [34:55]
B
So if that applies to you and you're listening, definitely something to look into.
- [34:59]
D
Yeah, very cool.
- [35:01]
E
But he, when I brought it up and I said, look, you know, I've been wondering for a while. It's been creeping up on me for a couple of years, like, do, do I have autism? Do I? And I, I just, I wonder, like, because he's a psychiatrist also, I said, you know, what would be the process for getting evaluated and diagnosed? And he said, well, he gave me a little bit of a rundown of a very, very brief, um, and he said, what would be your reason? Why would you want to do that? Like, and he wasn't being like dismissive in any way at all. He just wanted me to look at it and think about it. Um, and I said, yeah, I think for me, the, the main reason would be if there was some way to get more ports or something like that, then, then it might be worthwhile. But the things that you just said really make a lot of sense to me, especially the giving yourself greater self compassion part. Because I know that, like, as you were saying that I was just doing my own little thought experiment, like, how do I feel about it now and how would I feel about it if I had the official piece of paper, right? Like, I, I feel a kind of, I imagine a kind of more settled feeling, same as when I got diagnosed. As having adhd, just a little bit of like, okay, this real, like I'm not just making it up. It's one thing to say as I did to him, you know, like I could just deal with the symptoms as they are and address the symptoms as best I can.
- [36:46]
D
Right.
- [36:47]
E
And look at it that way. But I do think it would make a kind of, well really rather a profound difference.
- [36:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, I, I would support that. And the other thing though, I think it's worthwhile saying, and this is as I've talked about on the podcast over the last year or two, my thinking has changed around it and you know, if you were to ask me, you know, 10, 15 years ago, what do you think of about self diagnosis, I would have like given you all the reasons why it's not a good idea. My thinking that's very much evolved about that because I think that really is a, that's one, a position of privilege. Two, it is not, you know, diagnosis is not accessible for people. Yeah, yeah, for a lot of people. And three, by saying that, that somebody can't self diagnose if they have, maybe they've read a couple books on the topic, like don't watch one like TikTok video and say yep, that's me. I, I, you know. Right. Well, like I, I believe in like believing that people are intelligent and if they've done their act like a good amount of research with credible sources and everything that they're seeing is like, it's resonating. I think it's okay.
- [38:02]
E
I guess one thing you could do is skirt the, the whole, all the conversations about like, oh, are you actually diagnosed or not? Just say you are, just say you are. Like if it's not an important conversation with, you know, some, something where you can't actually fudge about that.
- [38:23]
B
Yeah, just, just say I know some people will say that I discovered that I'm autistic.
- [38:30]
D
I like, yeah, that's a good one.
- [38:32]
B
You know, or, or I, I, I recently learned that I'm autistic.
- [38:37]
E
Mm, that's a good one.
- [38:38]
B
That's, I like that. And I'll tell you too, like even my, the psychiatrist I've been seeing, I've been seeing for probably 15 years. When I told him that I was going through the autism evaluation and share the report with him, initially it was like, oh, I think it's being very over diagnosed. And I pushed back and he was receptive and I was like, I think you need to update your research and your understanding on this topic because what you just Said is like the type of thing I tell people to go find the other doctor for when they say stuff like that.
- [39:09]
E
Nice. It's nice that he was receptive.
- [39:13]
B
Yeah, he was receptive. You know, and that's finding people who really get this stuff. And even with prescribing, too, there's nuances in prescribing when you have both that I think are really important to understand as well.
- [39:28]
E
Okay, that's good to know.
- [39:29]
B
Okay. Because I know that when it's. When you have the. When you have both, they're often, you know, the side effects of stimulants can sometimes be less tolerable where. When it's just adhd, we don't see as many of those kind of side effects. But yeah, I mean, it's still. Still worth exploring, though. Okay, thank you. Did you have something you wanted to add?
- [39:53]
A
Muted. I just reminded me of something that I've seen on the Internet in a bunch of different places. I wanted to share because it speaks to the self acceptance, community portion. To answer the question, why do you need a label? Because there is comfort in knowing you're a normal zebra and not a strange horse. Because you can't find community with other zebras if you don't know that you belong. And because it is impossible for a zebra to be happy or healthy, spending its life feeling like a failed horse. And this. I've seen this bandied around on the Internet, but it always kind of spoke to me because if you don't have that, you know, if you're not sure, if you don't feel like you really belong there, it's hard for you to find community with other folks like yourself and feel like you really belong and that we always believe that community is one of the best things you can leverage to get to deal with any issue or any problem. And I always find the same way because I'm in that position. I am all but convinced I am a dhd. But I was in the middle of a. I was in the process of a formal diagnosis, process procedure, diagnosis with my going through my health insurer when a certain individual who runs a powerful government department started coming out with really, you know, dehumanizing statements and troubling things about. They'd backed off of that, but I still don't trust them. So I paused that. And one thing I want to bring to the attention of anyone else who was in that position. There is a growing number of people who are. That you can find online who do remote diagnoses. They're people and they'll put expressly because I've been researching them, but they'll put expressly in their terms of service that like we are not a government agency, we don't take any money from the government, we don't have to comply with any orders, we don't share records with anybody. So there are, there's an urging field of private diagnose or diagnoses available. I can't speak to how good they are. I can just, right out of this moment, I can just speak to that. They exist. But there's a growing number of other options for people who want private off the books diagnoses.
- [41:49]
B
I like that you shared that, Ryan. When I was at last year's CHAD conference, I was at a session on ADHD and someone raised their hand and basically made this like disclaimer like discouraging people from doing that. And then I responded, I said, well, hold on because I did mine online, it's not online provider. And I thought it was a great experience and like it was covered by my insurance. And the whole thing with insurance was 180 bucks.
- [42:16]
A
Yeah. So you can vet them, vet their qualifications as you would with any other provider. I think honestly people would probably vet the qualifications more with a private provider than they would with whoever their insurance company assigns them to. So it's all, it's always, always do your research on who you are working with.
- [42:35]
B
I think that's great. All right, let's do this. Let's take a, a quick break and when we come back we'll have time for another quick question or two. So we will be right back. All right, so I am going to attempt to do this like live ad read. So I'm going to, my attempt is to have this all as a podcast and I'm not going to edit even makes me nervous to say that, but I'm going to try it. Okay, so a couple things coming up on Tuesday, April 21st at 11am Pacific to Eastern. I am actually doing a webinar for the presentation that I gave at last year's chat conference titled Wait, I'm Audihd. It's a beginner's guide to ADHD and autism. It's for anyone exploring how ADHD and autism overlap, whether you live it, love someone who does, or support others professionally. So you can sign up for that on my website under Events. Also on Friday, April 24, we'll be doing the adult or the Pomodoro dance party in adult study hall. I lead this every month where it's about 2 hour and 15 minute co working session where we do two 50 minute work blocks and each, after each 50 minute work block we do 10 minutes of high energy dancing. And I think it was two months ago, literally be it everyone, myself included because I was working from home that day. We were on indoor trampolines instead of dancing. And it was just, it was, it was so much fun. You were there. Okay. Then we have on April 28th is our monthly Patreon coaching call. We do that every fourth Tuesday of the month. That's at 1pm Pacific for Eastern. And I don't yet have dates for our next coaching season but I will soon. So stay tuned and get on the interest list. So we'll update you when we have that. So those are the announcements and now I don't need to spend time writing ads and recording them. Wow. It's, it's really interesting that. I know it's been interesting lately about my meditation practice. And it's one of the big reasons why I've been doing it is recognizing that I wasn't always aware of my internal feelings. Right. And I, since I've been doing so much meditation, it is amazing how much more aware I have been becoming of what is happening inside my body. It's like there's this whole world of sensation that I'd never even. It's like all these emotions actually have physical sensations to them. Honestly, I was such a good thinker of feelings. It feels so much better to be back in my body.
- [45:18]
A
Okay.
- [45:19]
B
With that, I guess we transition back to being back to the Q and A. All right. Kristen?
- [45:25]
D
Yeah, I just wanted to offer a little piece that I put in the chat about that around that last question because I went through that idea of diagnosed or not and I couldn't think of what the positives would be to gain and so I elected to not go there. And the other one of the things that made me think about that is, well, that's not going to change anything about me. I get the calming name entertainment kind of thing for me. It was like, that's not going to change anything about me. It's still just going to allow me to focus on the things that are getting in my way. So one thing I say, I'll say is, yeah, I might be, I might not have enough to be diagnosable. I definitely have traits. I have a daughter with profound autism. And so my kind of go to say is I have some really strong traits of the autistic spectrum and those are the things that get in my way and those are the things that I try to build more awareness around and what can I do to change them and how do they interact or conflict with the ADHD pieces too? So for me, that's what has. Because I'll go. I don't want to go. Everything is adhd. And I say it just to give me some direction because I've gone before. I've gone. That's not. I don't think that's adhd. And I'm like going. And I got stuck in that rut. So I did start kind of owning. It is kind of an autistic like thing. So I did start owning pieces of that.
- [46:56]
A
And actually that reminds me of something. When I was started that diagno that diagnosis process with my insurer, the first round of person I spoke to, the first interview, the first thing they asked very bluntly was, well, why do you want this diagnosis? There's no real treatment available. Like, if I've gotten to this stage in life, it's obviously like ASD1. If I was at a higher level, then I would. Or it would have been diagnosed already. And she said, well, why. There's no. Like, are you seeking services? I'm not aware of any services you can offer. You're already getting therapy. So there. So why. Why do you want this therapy, this diagnosis, if this. And I said, well, you know, there's plenty of other medical conditions that are untreatable, but we still diagnose them. Like, for example, Crohn's disease. There's no treatment for Crohn's disease, but we still diagnose it, don't we? So that's why I kind of stopped her in her tracks, because then I felt like she was trying to talk me out of pursuing the diagnosis. So that's one thing I would always point it out, like. And that's one thing that I always point out. Like, the different. Even among medical. Healthcare providers, the differential that is treated between physical ailments and emotional, psychological, developmental developments, they're still treated as less than. Less than valid. And a lot of that cultural attitude is out there, even among medical care providers.
- [48:08]
B
Well, and even, like, the idea of connection and community, like, that's so important and, you know, it's. And one of the, you know, sort of data points for me that led me to the evaluation. It was. It was basically two consecutive Chad conferences that I was. Found myself hanging out with a lot of other Audi HDRs. And I found that, like, the connection and like, they should have just like the, like the unspoken knowing and getting each Other was so much deeper than just ADHD alone. And Kristin.
- [48:41]
D
So as a person who, a therapist who is often doing intakes and assessments there, I feel like there's another reason behind that question and it is what misinformation does this person have that I want to provide the correct information? Because so many in our community who may not be very well read or have found the more clinical avenues for gaining, gathering information, they're getting it from TikTok and they're getting, and they're getting, they have misinterpretations or missed,
- [49:20]
A
I don't
- [49:20]
D
know, just they think, oh well, I'm going to be able to tell my boss I have adhd, I mean, I have autism and then I'm going to get accommodations or I'm going to get help. So I feel like that question isn't always about trying to challenge us. It is also there to help the person in the clinical position be providing and have an awareness and provide that correct psycho educational piece also. So, you know, if you're out there and you're hearing this and you feel challenged by that, don't necessarily take it that way either. That's just kind of part of our thing is to make sure that what you know, is helpful and that we can help guide, give guidance on where to find your information too.
- [50:04]
B
And there is a white paper that actually got reported on NPR that actually looked at the number of, they look at all these different content creators around ADHD on TikTok and found that more than half or disseminating inaccurate information. Right. I mean that's kind of mind blowing. Right. And also not surprising. Like it's, you know, people, even people who aren't in the ADHD community actually have an awareness that like some, some whatever reason like ADHDers get like they flock towards, towards TikTok and a lot of people are like learning a ADHD because of it. But you know, the issue is are they being diagnosed or self identifying incorrectly? Because they're not because they're doing anything wrong, but because they're getting bad information
- [50:54]
D
and not because they're lying. They are struggling with something.
- [50:59]
B
Absolutely.
- [51:00]
D
But autism and ADHD are hot topics right now and there are other diagnoses in our manual that, that are not. And so in our manual and they may not be aware of. Oh, because that's what we're trained to do. How do we do. Oh, I lost the, the term. The, the, the diagnostic. Yes, the differential diagnosis. Like what fits this best? And one of the biggest challenges we have nowadays is trauma and anxiety and autism and ADHD traits and features have this big, huge center circle in the Venn diagram. And it doesn't mean you can't have every one of them. And it could mean, yes, you had trauma, and you could have had trauma at a very young age. However, we also know, because we were just talking about this, we have to let the ADHD kind of manifest and present itself, and you still could be getting it, but you might have had the trauma before that. Which means that the ADHD that was there, that we have to do, in hindsight to be sure, exacerbated the effect of the trauma on us. So there's so many layers. So I really feel like that first question piece, too, has a lot to do with that. Just that first step in differential diagnosis.
- [52:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:26]
A
I heard someone say recently, I don't know how accurate this is, but if they actually formally put CPTSD in the dsm, the DSM would be about this long.
- [52:34]
B
I think that was. I think I heard that from. What's his Vander cult? Or. Or. No, wait, who's. No, not him. Who wrote, I can like, see his face right now. Which is not helpful for a podcast.
- [52:58]
D
I think you have adhd. That's word recall. Short trainer.
- [53:03]
B
Yeah. Okay. And I like his stuff on trauma. I don't like his stuff on adhd, though.
- [53:10]
A
Oh, my God.
- [53:11]
B
Thank you. Thank you, G. Yeah.
- [53:14]
A
Like, as soon as you said, I don't like a stuff on adhd, I knew exactly who you were talking about. Yeah, yeah. Feelings about his. I think he's great, but I have some mixed feelings about his ADHD stuff.
- [53:24]
B
Yeah, yeah. Which is unfortunate, but. And now I totally forgot while we were talking about that.
- [53:31]
D
Welcome to differential diagnosis.
- [53:34]
B
Sorry, Dale. Okay.
- [53:37]
A
Incidentally, I put something in the chat for you, Eric. Have you ever heard the term alexithymia?
- [53:42]
B
Alexithymia, yes. Yes, I think.
- [53:44]
A
Is that what you were describing earlier?
- [53:45]
B
Yes, it is. And what is. To me, it's one of the most, like, fascinating sort of self discoveries because I've always, like, identified as someone who has, I think, high emotional intelligence because I'm good at reading other people's emotions and picking up on other people's stuff. I did not realize that I actually was not as good as picking it up on my own. And it makes sense to me now why when someone asks me, and they're genuinely asking and wanting an answer, how are you? Why? I find that such a hard question to answer.
- [54:15]
A
Oh, yeah. I find that trait, too, as I attribute it to cptsd I have CPTSD from family of origin issues. You learn how to read the room. Very effective child as a safety measure. So like, oh, I'm harnessing that for good use.
- [54:30]
D
And one, one is about our visual skills. If you think about it, if we could be a fly on the wall and see ourselves, we might recognize our emotions. But we're talking about the. That inner internal interoceptive. Interoceptive piece where we're trying to recognize the feeling and where it lives inside of us and how internally our body reacts sometimes even externally because we don't see it still. So we're so good. And see like what you said Brian, about reading a room because that's helping protect us too is I think that's a piece that it's like maybe we lean so much into that that we have disconnected from that other piece. So we do have to go back and practice it to come back to it.
- [55:19]
B
It was interesting like when a while back I was working with a coach and it was interesting because I was. I actually always found it annoying when the coach wanted me to start every session by talking about my wins and I was just like. Because I didn't, like I didn't always feel the feelings of the win. And a few weeks ago I was doing a meditation. I was warm spring evening in my backyard in the evening. And it was a guided meditation and had something to do with like pride around something. And I actually like started crying from like, like that from pride and like it was such an unfamiliar experience to me like to actually have this like feel good feeling around something I was proud about. It was. Yeah, it's, you know, it's. Meditation has been opening up so many doors for me lately. It's been so nice
- [56:17]
D
offer something that, you know, works for me that not like some clinical thing. You talk about using meditation. And even me as a therapist, I go it's really hard to do and I realize how much of a TV and movie hound I am and I feel all of it. And I think it's kind of a way of me practicing what that's like. I feeling it for the character. And so if you're feeling really, you know, just aversive to the idea of. Especially with our anxiety, sometimes we feel real aversive to the idea of trying to practice meditation. Maybe find a snow you like and really be. Don't, don't multitask or divided task while you're watching the show and try to be in that show in that space and even pick out a single character. And try to kind of practice what you're seeing, what that emotion feels like. And maybe that's a way to kind of step into this. This new idea of getting back in touch with what. What do we feel? What is it like?
- [57:30]
B
Okay. There was a question earlier on sensory processing or auditory processing disorder, and how they're diagnosed in children. So I know that I have an auditory processing disorder, even though I was never formally diagnosed with that. Because if you experience what I do around Warren sound, you would diagnose that too. So I know that with. With. I'll just explain the auditory processing from. From my experience and from what I know is our common traits of auditory processing. Having a conversation and someone says something, and then you go, what? And then when the other person starts to repeat it now your brain processed it and you start answering. I do that all the time.
- [58:18]
A
Oh, yeah. Constantly.
- [58:22]
B
Or in a. If, like, if I go out to dinner somewhere in a restaurant, like, I have to make sure I'm on a perimeter. So. Because if I'm in the middle of a restaurant, like, I. I literally will be. By time I'm done there, I am so spent, like, because I can't filter background noise at all. It's like every sound that is not relevant to the conversation, it's like my brain turns it up, right? Things like, if I'm out from outdoors, whether I'm driving or somewhere outdoors and there's an emergency vehicle, I almost panic a little bit if I can't get my windows closed in time, like. And I will absolutely put my fingers in my ears because it is, like, is a. Such an uncomfortable jolt to my nervous system. Like the sirens from emergency vehicles. Like, if my son's talking to me and I have, like, the water running and the air fryer's on and he's. I'm like, I can't, like. Or I get really, really, like, flustered if, like, there's two conversations trying to happen at the same time. Let's see what else I'm trying to think. What are some of the other components that is different? Kristen, do you have any. Yeah, go ahead.
- [59:42]
D
I feel like there was a tiny mixture in there when you said about the sirens. There is sensory input and there's hypo and hyper. And for me, like, I'm the person on the street that when a fire engine is going by, I. I look like the level three autistic person. I'm going to.
- [60:01]
B
I do that too.
- [60:02]
D
It sense that's hypersensitivity to the sound input. It's not, not really doing anything. My central auditory processing system. I mean, I know now the piece that will is where the hell is that truck coming from? And that is a piece of what central auditory processing disorder is, is not being able to figure out where the sound's coming from. So there's that element, but you're adding in that hyper sensitive piece. I have begged for hearing aids for years. Finally got them three years ago or two and a half years ago. And my last visit with my. What do you call them, ENT guy, I said, hey, now that I've got this and now that I know I still have the hearing piece, and sometimes I'm still going, what, what? I go, how do we, how do we get this diagnosed? This, this auditory processing thing when he shared with me is, well, yeah, you can. He said, here's what you do with it, though. And he explained to me that he had the same situation happened to him when he was in med school. When we're stressed, it increases in difficulty.
- [61:14]
B
That makes sense.
- [61:15]
D
And when he. He would be stressed from like studying and studying when he was studying for all the different exams I have to go through. And so he'd be invited to the bar to go hang out. He'd get there and he tried to relax and he couldn't relax because he couldn't hear. He couldn't take in any information. He couldn't filter out. He couldn't tell it was coming from. It just made him worse. So I think he did some more ex, you know, exploration on this and understanding. And what he learned is, okay, when I calm it all down, it's not as impactful. And I can go to a bar and hang out. It was almost after the test, then I could go to the bar. And so what he learned is, Kristen, when you're wearing these hearing aids and you're still having trouble hearing, sit back, assess. What's going on with you? Where's your stress level? And that has helped. That makes so much sense, figuring that piece out. And I, yeah, that there's definitely times
- [62:11]
B
where I can like go into like a bar or something. It's noisy and I'm fine. Have a good time. Yeah. And I. There's literally been times where I walk into like a, a bar or like a small music venue. I walk in and like three seconds I was like, nope, not happening. And I'll turn around and walk out.
- [62:27]
D
And at that same time, you could walk into a library and you could be okay sitting and talking to somebody and you're still going, wait, wait, Wait, hang on. What'd you just say? Yeah. And you're. And it's still happening because the stress level in it. My theory about it is, is our brains are working on the stress and can't focus on the work to do to help filter. And we already have an issue with that with adhd, you know, I mean, it's just. There's so many layers.
- [62:53]
B
Yeah. And that.
- [62:54]
D
I feel like it's that.
- [62:55]
B
And the audiologist would diagnose a auditory processing disorder, I believe.
- [63:02]
D
Okay.
- [63:03]
C
Yeah.
- [63:03]
D
I didn't know who diagnoses that, because once he shared that with me, I was like, oh, good. And that doesn't matter. And oh, my God, why didn't somebody tell me this when my kid was little? Because I used to beg for that diet, you know, that testing and stuff. And they go, well, she's too young. She has to be seven at least back then. And then by the time she was 8, she was throwing chairs and stuff, and we were dealing with something so much bigger. We didn't know, you know, bring the stress level down. It helps with that. That's why she couldn't take in information and learn very well. Yeah. And I hate that. That thing you said at the beginning, you're. You're reprocessing it, and then they're already asking that question and you're trying to answer, and you wouldn't. You want to just go, shane, I got it. But you can't. And then you lose it because you wait for them to ask the question again and you're like, so commute. Here's my tip. Communication is huge when you know that happens. And if it's a person you really, really care about, and you care about that back and forth, and you don't want it to come across as I'm being a jerk or I'm not listening to you when you are. These are the times that I talk to my husband, I talk to my son, and I tell them what's happened, and I. And I will, you know, let me give you a signal. Hang on. I gotta hear it again in my head. And I literally will say that out loud. I'm listening to that again in my head. And that has helped improve our, you know, just, you know, just regular conversations so much.
- [64:28]
B
It's. It's interesting you say that. So I have. Oh, there it goes. I had a thought now, what did you.
- [64:38]
D
Just knowing. It's reprocessing about knowing your replacing question.
- [64:41]
B
So, as you know, I am so bad at remembering names, right? Like, painfully bad. Or it's like not even painful. It's just like, it's just awkward and annoying because I'm just. I've tried all the different strategies. One thing that I have found that sometimes works is if I can hear sort of the melody of the person's voice when they say their name, then I can capture it. But I have to really be tuned in.
- [65:06]
D
Can I possibly add a piece to this? I sent you an email before I knew you about this. I heard it on the podcast. I was like, I have this idea because he's musical. I sent you this big old long email. I have no idea if you ever saw it, but. And you just added that piece because Kylie does better when they're sing song. What if it's that that's part of your introduction process. Hey, sing that name to me. And then you sing it back. And that until that becomes, oh, I know who this is. I know this name. I wonder because Kylie, I taught her how to spell her name using sign language and a tune. K, Y, L, I E. Kylie because we did the music one and that's. That's how she did it. And she does spell her name.
- [65:54]
B
I swear, if I could figure out like a reliable strategy to help people like myself, like others might remember names, I think I'll be able to retire early.
- [66:06]
D
Life is good.
- [66:08]
B
And like, oh, you know, I. So I downloaded these two apps from my phone that are supposed to help you keep track of your score in pickleball because there's three numbers you got to say when you play pickleball, but it requires too much interaction and I get confused by it and then I get flustered by it because I am like notoriously awful at keeping track of score. But I'm good at having fun. So let's do this. Let's wrap this up. I know, Brian, you need to head out and so do I because I'm playing pickleball at three and I got to do a couple things. So thank you for being here. Thank you for your questions. Chris and Brian, it's always wonderful to see you and for listeners. Good, good to be back in your your ears and hopefully we'll have another episode. I actually have an episode that is actually edited. I just need to add a of things to it that will be coming out soon. So get more information about everything we are doing from our coaching groups to Patreon to adult study hall, everything at at our website@adhd rewired.com and we will also have dates for our upcoming coaching season coming up. Soon. Thanks, everyone.
- [67:15]
A
Thank you, everybody. Have a great day.