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- [00:00]
Andrea
Shame corrodes the very part of us that believes we are capable of change. My name is Andrea, and this is Adult Child. Welcome back to Adult Child, where we take a deep dive into the impact of growing up in a dysfunctional family. Ahoy, my dear Shit Shows for any new listeners. My name is Andrea. I am a total incomplete shit show. And before you get insulted and turn this off, please know that Shit show is a term of endearment around here, okay? It is an identity. It is a badge of honor. It is all about embracing that this healing journey is messy as hell. Uh, we don't pretend like we have it all together around here. And I guess by we, I mean me.
- [01:06]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
So I guess we also talk about.
- [01:08]
Andrea
Ourselves in second person at times. And as you may have gathered, if you haven't already turned this off, we don't take ourselves too seriously around here, okay? We talk about serious shit, but we don't take ourselves too seriously because let's be honest, this healing journey is absolutely ridiculous at times. So if we can't find the humor, if we can't laugh from time to time, we're gonna go absolutely nuts. So welcome aboard this hot mess of a ship. This is not your typical trauma podcast. We curse here. You've been warned. I'm an acquired taste. You've been warned. And for anybody who doesn't know, I'm currently on a little break working on the relaunch of this podcast. So in the meantime, we are taking a dive. We're taking a swim in the adult child vault. So today we are going to revisit one of my favorite interviews ever. So this is with Robin Goebbels. She is a psychotherapist who specializes in relational neuroscience.
- [02:21]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
She is, like, a toxic shame queen.
- [02:25]
Andrea
And at the time that we recorded this, her book had not yet come out yet. But it is.
- [02:30]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
It's.
- [02:30]
Andrea
It was released in 2023. Highly recommend it for any of you parents out there. It's called Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors. And this is just a. A really good interview. Okay? So let's just get on with the damn show. But first, let's talk about why you. Yes, you need to damn join Shit show, my online support community where I host four weekly zoom support groups where you can connect with other shit shows who are also embracing that this healing messy. This healing messy. This healing messy. Wow. She's on one today, folks. That this healing journey is messy as hell, but are doing it regardless. So this people are doing the damn work here. Okay? This isn't just playing around, people are committed to breaking the cycle. It is a one of a kind place. This is an app too. So you have access to a support community 24 7. This is a place where you will gain insight and about yourself opportunities for healing that you won't get in your therapist office. By no mistake, that trait, one of the laundry list is we became isolated and afraid of people. All the laundry list traits have to do with the ways in which we relate with other people. And that's why it is so crucial that in this healing journey we participate with other people that are on this healing journey so that we can figure all this stuff out together so that we can practice together together and be amongst those who who get it. So if you're looking to feel seen, heard and understood like never before, you, yes, you the person that's been wanting to join for forever. How about you just do it already? Okay. See the link in the show notes. Just do it, folks. Next, give me a little follow on the insta on the TikTok adult child pod. And last but not least, whatever you do, please, please, please give me a five star rating on Apple and Spotify. This really does help get this podcast out to as many people as possible. There are so many adult children out there that have yet to discover this podcast.
- [04:43]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Thank you.
- [04:43]
Andrea
Love you all.
- [04:44]
Robin Goebbels
All right, y'. All.
- [04:45]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Well, we are joined by Robin Goble. She is the host of the Parenting After Trauma podcast. She is a psychotherapist that talks a lot about all of the that us shows deal with. Welcome.
- [05:04]
Robin Goebbels
Thank you.
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Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Would you consider yourself an adult child?
- [05:08]
Robin Goebbels
It's not something I talk about a lot, but I think it's pretty impossible to do this work in the way that I do it without having a really lived, felt sense of what it is to have had those experiences as a young one. So, yeah, I mean, it's just again, it's not really part of my brand to talk about it in that way because I'm a parenting expert. But yeah.
- [05:33]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Do you, do you talk about your, your upbringing at all?
- [05:37]
Robin Goebbels
Not really is part of my brand per se.
- [05:41]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Okay, but what about like, between me and you right now?
- [05:45]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [05:47]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
So tell me, like, would you consider your upbringing dysfunctional? And what did that look like?
- [05:51]
Robin Goebbels
Oh, well, if I'm going to notice, first of all, just like the sense that arises, I was like, we're going to, we're going to just go there. Huh?
- [06:03]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
I come in hot.
- [06:04]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah. There's elements of it that I think are actually pretty hard to put into words. And I think that's actually probably what makes it so hard that there was just, in different ways, you know, some chaos, some unpredictability, yet not all of that was true by any means. You know, there's lots of, you know, lots and lots of moments of goodness. And especially now that I'm older and I can done a lot of work to process everything and can actually see so much more clearly the parts that were good and were attuned and were present. But I think the easiest thing to say would just be lots of confusion, lots of chaos, lots of dysregulation that left. Yeah, I just keep the word scared. Just kind of chaos and confusion.
- [07:05]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Was there a particular aha moment that you had in adulthood where you were able to see ways in which your upbringing impacted you that you hadn't been aware of?
- [07:20]
Robin Goebbels
I don't know that I've ever had a significant, like, ah, aha moments kind of in general. Like, I don't feel like I've been in 47,000 million hours of therapy, and I don't really relate to that experience of aha moment per se, but just these, like, really slow unfoldings of new awareness, new understandings, new compassion, like, for myself. And I can remember moments of being like, no way. That doesn't describe me at all. You know, like. Like when a therapist suggested the word codependent a really long time ago, I was like, what? I was so offended. Like, that doesn't try me at all. I remember those sort of moments, but I think everything else has just been this kind of slow, gradual pace. I think that's all my nervous system could really navigate. That sounds pretty good than a big.
- [08:24]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Slap in the face.
- [08:26]
Robin Goebbels
I mean, sometimes I wish that were true. Like, I kind of long for that aha moment. And sometimes I look at my current challenges still and wish I could have that aha moment and be done with all of it. But, yeah, wouldn't that be nice except.
- [08:43]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
For, like, we're never all done with it.
- [08:45]
Robin Goebbels
I know.
- [08:46]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
You know, you just mentioned the, you know, having both the chaos and confusion, but also having a lot of moments of, you know, of joy and happiness. And I was just talking about this with my therapist. I said, I just got off of therapy and. And the thing for me that is so difficult. So I grew up in an alcoholic home. My mom was an alcoholic. My dad was a emotionally unavailable workaholic. But the thing that. Because I was talking with her just about some. Some messages that I recently received from my inner child in particular, good Things never work out. Things always go to you, always it up, you always self sabotage. And what's hard for me is that I, my parents were never, ever verbally abusive to me. My parents never told me that I was a piece of shit or that I wasn't smart or that I wasn't capable. Like I would say the majority of the people listening to this podcast and the majority of the people that are in my community, they did have those direct things said to them and I didn't. Yeah, but. And so it was so insidious. Right. And it was like the continual promises by my mom that she would stop drinking and she wouldn't and that, you know, and just one example. But that like goes to show that it's like you're, you're clearly unworthy because if you were, then I would stop drinking.
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Robin Goebbels
Yeah. To a kid, that's absolutely the, the story that we craft around that. And I'm not, I'm not really a big believer in having to kind of put in a hierarchy like who had it worth.
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Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
No, it's all the same. I think it's all the same.
- [10:57]
Robin Goebbels
Totally. There is something that's kind of unique, I wouldn't call it worse, which kind of unique about the lack of overtness with, you know, the ver. Like what verbal abuse would feel. So it's a clear story, right? Like, well, of course I feel like I'm a terrible person because somebody told me I was a terrible person over and over and over again. Or the same with physical abuse or sexual. Like it. The.
- [11:23]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
The story.
- [11:25]
Robin Goebbels
Makes a little bit more sense and I have a similar experience where that was not my experience as a kid. In fact, if anything, the opposite happened. I was the kind of revered child who was doing everything correct and so had so much confusion then my young adulthood of why do I feel this bad? Like, why do I walk through the world thinking that my very existence hurts other people? I must be exaggerating this. I must be kind of histrionic. I must be. There's, you know, obviously there's something very wrong with me because nothing that bad ever happened. So there's this extra layer that's confusing.
- [12:13]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Where we shame ourselves. Right. I shouldn't, I didn't have it that bad, so I shouldn't be this fucked up.
- [12:19]
Robin Goebbels
Right?
- [12:20]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Yeah, yeah. There's this. I was reading in, in. In Pete Walker's book From Surviving to Thriving, there was this one. Because one of the things that I've been trying to work through a lot is self sabotage behaviors, procrastination and there's this one thing, he says, and especially tragic developmental arrest that afflicts many survivors is the loss of their willpower and self motivation. Many dysfunctional parents react destructively to their child's budding sense of initiative. And so for me, the way that that showed up was not, again, it wasn't direct, it was, you know, my mom's alcoholism. But it wasn't like, you know, when. So then I started acting out at like 12. And they would dangle these, like. And when I started to act out, my mom stopped drinking and my parents stopped fighting.
- [13:19]
Robin Goebbels
Right.
- [13:19]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Like that worked in fixing the family. But they would dangle these carrots at me, like, if you don't drink or if you do this or you do that, like, we'll give you this, like, you know, reward. And so it's like there was this. There was this facade of like, believing in me, in them thinking that I could do the right thing. But then simultaneously, it's like I didn't have a choice because the pain was so deep and the shame was so deep that my only choice was to numb out. There was never even a question as to whether I would abide by whatever it was so that I could get that reward, because my sole purpose in life had become numbing out, not feeling, you know, and so that's how the destructively reacting to their child's sense of budding, sense of initiative showed up for me. But again, very, very, very insidious.
- [14:22]
Robin Goebbels
Yes, I'm working right now in a workshop for play therapists about toxic shame in the play therapy room and how it shows up and how it presents and even what the origins of it are, because it is very confusing. Right. And it often doesn't show up, like, you know, especially in kids. Sometimes I think adults have just different capacities to kind of articulate what their inner world is. But kids don't show up in the play therapy room and say, I hate myself. I really shouldn't even exist. And it feels as though my very existence hurts people. They don't show up with those words. And so the way that it does show up.
- [15:03]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Yeah, this is something that we haven't discussed on the podcast. I would love to dive into that.
- [15:08]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah, I mean, it shows up in like, exactly the words that I already used. Chaos and confusion. And often the therapist is feeling confused and isn't. Has no idea what's happening. There's gonna be a sense of like. Like, what on earth is even going on? I can't make any sense of this. There can Be the sense of like there's even some danger, like in like literal danger. Like I've been hurt as a play therapist. I've had black eyes, I've been bits I've had. And like, I'm talking about like an outpatient play therapist, not in like a acute psychiatric.
- [15:40]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Can you describe what play therapy is?
- [15:42]
Robin Goebbels
Oh yeah. So play therapy is a pretty specific modality. I mean, it's a modality of therapy that utilizes play as an expressive arts for kind of the primary healing medium. So while it certainly is not only for kids, we see play therapy used like predominantly in children, I have a little bit broader definition of play and play therapy in that it's just an expressive modality where we're not using words, but we might be using metaphor or symbolic play that could look like puppets, dolls. Sometimes it's a much more experiential play, like we're doing sword fights kind of play. And sometimes it can look a little bit more like the kind of play we might think about in very, very young children. Tossing balls back and forth, just silly, back and forth, patty cake kind of play. This is super important developmental experiences for little kids developing brain and for their attachment experiences, their experiences of their sense of self. And of course a lot of kids miss that. And so to help kind of almost in some ways fill in some of the holes, the gaps of development as well as to provide them with that expressive modality similar to what we think about adults in therapy. Right. There's this opportunity to kind of take what's on the inside and put it on the outside and kind of look at it and see it and then shift it around, have somebody else witness it. It's a very similar experience for kids just occurs in this more non verbal modality of play.
- [17:47]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
And are you able to. Would it be more so something used as. As like treatment versus are you able to make like assessments or. I don't want to say like diagnoses, but basically like is it used as a way to try to get an understanding of what might the child might be suffering from or with or.
- [18:18]
Robin Goebbels
I think both. I personally practice from the perspective of really believing the. My job isn't necessarily to interpret the play. My job is to provide an opportunity for whatever this child needs. Okay. And to really trust them. Which means I spend less time kind of trying to assess it or make meaning out of it myself. I mean, I think it's a very normal human thing to try to make meaning out of things that you can't completely separate myself from. Especially when things are super chaotic and confusing. That's one of the things I'm working on in this toxic shame workshop is teaching these therapists, like, what is the neurobiology of toxic shame? Because I want them to understand kind of the story, the narrative of toxic shame. So they have just some sort of framework to look at. Like, when they see these behaviors, that tends to help us as therapists stay a little bit more, like, regulated, a little bit more present when, like, big, huge chaotic things are happening. So without question, like, there's story that's being told through the play, and I really want to hear the story. It's not exactly my job to make meaning out of the story though, does that, if that makes sense.
- [19:48]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Absolutely. What. So what would be some examples of the ways in which toxic shame does show up in behavior, like in kids? So you talk about chaos and confusion, but what would that look like?
- [20:01]
Robin Goebbels
I tend to pay a ton of attention to what's happening for me. And really, I. That's. Those are some of my markers, is like, am I feeling confused? Did I just have a moment of, like, what on earth is even going on here? That tends to be a potential kind of marker that what the child is expressing or showing me is some of their earliest experiences of toxic shame. Because it's all embedded, like, in the same neural network. So for truly, I kind of track my own experience of shame. Feeling like something just really happened out of left field. Like, the feeling of, like, the rug has just been ripped out from under me. Like, oh, my gosh, what the heck? That's a kind of clue for me. True chaos, like the literal chaos of. And in a playroom, the amount of chaos that can happen in, like a play therapist office. Pretty intense. Toys everywhere, you know, art supplies, paint. It's common for play therapists to have sand trays. So like all this, like, literally, we're talking about, like, dumping, right. Shelves, clearing, body chaos. You know, kids are kind of all over the room. I can remember kids crawling into my windowsill. I can remember trying to get kids off of the roof of their parents car. Kids who've locked me out of my own office. Kids just. Yeah. And so the. What happens when you're a professional, it's your office, and a child locks you out of your own office. Like, imagine the sensations that come up for that. Therapist shame, humiliation, confusion. What just happened here? Like, I'm supposed to be in charge here. How did this happen? How did I let this. You know, like, these are the kinds of things because therapists are Perfectly human. And so these are the sorts of very human reactions that come up for us. And that kind of begins us on the trailhead of, oh, I wonder if what this child is bringing into the office is bringing into me. I wonder if part of the story that they really need me to witness is toxic shame.
- [22:23]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
And would you define toxic shame as essentially just internalized shame, the belief that we are shame, no longer feeling it, but believing that we are it?
- [22:35]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah. Yes. And certainly there's. I talk about, and I work with kids and so I have lots of, you know, kid friendly metaphors and I talk when I'm teaching parents a lot about the owl brain and the watchdog brain and the possum brain. So the owl brain is kind of self reflective and can kind of see things. Right. There is a moment, and maybe you can relate to this as an adult, that there's moments when you can see the feeling of shame. You have just a little distance from it and you're like, wow, I am feeling an enormous amount of shame take over me right now. And then there's moments when you don't see it at all because you're just completely consumed by the sense of there's something terribly wrong with me. There's like different, we all have different kind of narratives. Like a lot of mine can be like, I hurt people just by existing. And it feels totally true. Just like it doesn't feel like there's any space at all for that to be not true. And the physiology of toxic shame is less even about being told you're a terrible person and more about what happens physiologically in our nervous system in experiences of chronic misattunement, chronic needs not being met chronically, like not being seen and soothed. So there isn't kind of like what we said at the very beginning. There isn't. There can be, but there isn't always this narrative of you are a bad person, you're a bad kid. But the physiological experience that happens for the developing infant when they have a need and the need goes, is ignored, isn't met. Or the dysregulation is heightened on purpose. Right. But maybe the parent comes with anger instead of with soothing, that the physiological experience then that happens in response to that is actually the phys, the same physiological sensation of shame. So that so many of us can relate to the physiological sensation of shame as being like this kind of like your head tips down, right? And we kind of get this c shape in our body and we kind of want to hide ourselves. Right? And that is it's the same experience with when there's a need and there's this reach out, this, this. This attempt at attachment and connection. Please see me. That goes completely unanswered, completely unseen. What happens is the same physiologic, the same physiological thing happens as the, The. The shutdown and then the sagging, the dorsal vagal. For if we want to really get physiology, you know, the dorsal vagal break gets thrown, and we kind of collapse into this state of shame. Then we go get older and we have moments of, like, normal childhood shame, right? Like, oh, this is so cliche. The proverbial, like, child who, like, runs out into the middle of the road and the parents, like, no, stop that, you know, like, reacts huge because it's real scary, right? So the child feels shamed. There's a sense of, I, I'm such a bad kid. Now they learn that that intense break sensation means I'm a bad kid. Oh, but wait. When my brain was developing, I had that intense break sensation a lot because I was left all alone, and I wasn't soothed and I wasn't tended to. I must be really, really bad. Now, of course, little kids aren't, like, going through that cognitively, but that's essentially what's happening.
- [26:58]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
So what are your thoughts on when John Bradshaw talks about this moment where, you know, shame is internalized? And we either take the shameless acting in versus the shameful acting out. I mean, for me, there was. There is like, a very clear point in time where I can see that happened for me to where I really took the shameful acting out route. But what has been your experience in practice with that? And do you view that really as a marker of when shame truly is internalized?
- [27:42]
Robin Goebbels
The way I conceptualize behavior is to think about it through the lens of what's happening in the autonomic nervous system. And the kind of collapsing in experience is more of what Dr. Portraits would call this dorsal vagal break collapse. Whereas a lot of acting out behaviors has a lot of energy behind it, right? The energy behind acting out and going out and doing something. There's energy to that. There's some sympathetic arousal, some sympathetic activation versus this, this dorsal vagal break that tends to kind of bring us into ourselves. And there's a. The opposite's almost happening. There's like a lack of energy that's happening. So how I conceptualize that is in two ways. One is the acting out energy is actually protective of feeling the internal. The shame experience. This is a shame experience resembles this. I'M about, I'm like an annihilation sense. Whereas this acting out experience has more vitality to it and that's protective. Like this vitality experience feels better than I'm at risk of annihilation. And so it's protective of going into this sense of annihilation even though it.
- [29:05]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Just produces even more shame.
- [29:08]
Robin Goebbels
Totally, totally. Totally. I mean that's the devastation of, of so many of our protective behaviors is that in the moment they make perfect sense. It's like the best choice in that moment. And so often they are perpetuating the pain, you know, the belief I really am a terrible person or you know, that the core shame there is just being almost validated in a way.
- [29:47]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Yeah. And I had no idea like I, on a conscious level, like this is, you know, in early adulthood, if you had asked, like I would have told you that I thought highly of myself.
- [30:00]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah.
- [30:01]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
But my actions like clearly showed that I specifically in romantic relationships that I thought very, very, very little of myself. You know. What about like working through toxic shame as far as what healing from that looks like if it is something that is caught earlier on in childhood, like, how does healing that toxic shame differ from healing toxic shame in adulthood?
- [30:30]
Robin Goebbels
That's a wonderful thing to be super curious about. I mean there's without question, you know, the brain has so much opportunity for, I mean healing is just an easy way to say what's happening. You know, the younger we are and the more, you know, the sooner we can create new experiences for kids, without question the better as far as their long term outcomes, what's really happening in their brain. You know, how quickly can we help kids develop new, essentially new neural pathways? There's a lot more opportunity for them to be strengthened. It's really, it just gets harder when we're adults for a lot of reasons. Those neural pathways are really, really, really strong. And we've. Adults have developed a lot. Like some adults have developed like extremely complicated protective systems that, you know, there's 12 layers before we had to get at like the core shame.
- [31:37]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Yeah, My therapist always says that that really is the, the, the bottom layer that, you know, it takes a while to, to eventually get there.
- [31:46]
Robin Goebbels
Absolutely. With kids, they just frankly haven't had enough time to develop such sophisticated and intense protective systems. And so the actual experience of shame in a way is a little raw. Er, we could say it's a little. Yeah, let's just say that it's a little raw. Er, and that makes it a little simpler for the neural net that we want to act we have to activate in some way the neural net of shame for it to open up and unlock and have the opportunity to reconsolidate.
- [32:29]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
And what do you mean by that for anybody listening, the neural net of shame?
- [32:34]
Robin Goebbels
So the. Yeah, there's a memory. I mean, everything is memory. Everything is memory. So we have. When shame comes alive in our body, what is happening is old, old, old, old, old memory networks of shame, like patterns of neural firings from a long, long, long, long time ago are activating in the here and now. They're activating so intensely and with certain that make the activation not feel like a memory. Like we don't have this feeling of shame. And like, oh man, when I was two years old, I sure felt so shamed. That feeling of shame I'm having right now has nothing to do with my grown up self. It's just everything to do with this bad thing that happened when I was two that doesn't happen. And part of why it's not happening is because how that memory network is being activated is we're not getting the parts that tell us this is a memory. So it just feels like this is happening right now, right now. I'm a terrible, terrible person.
- [33:43]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
For me, it was like, I'm gonna die.
- [33:46]
Robin Goebbels
Yes. Yeah. And for me, especially when I'm working with adults, kids do sometimes express, I'm gonna die. We see that in their play. Adults actually can use the words and eventually and can say something like, I feel like I'm going to die. I feel like it will kill me. I remember saying to my therapist, I'm like, I know this doesn't make sense, but it feels like it will kill me. I will die if we look at that. And she's like, no, it makes perfect sense to me. So I do think that sense of I'm going to die, that kind of annihilation sense very likely has to do with shame. They tend to go together and it's not. I know, I know, I know in my body because I have felt it myself. It feels true. It actually though isn't true. And so from a physiological perspective, what we understand about essentially like, about why therapy works is this thing called memory reconsolidation theory. And we can allow the experience in a way to like become a memory so that if it gets activated in the here and now, there is a felt sense of like, that thing happened and it was bad, but I didn't die from it. And I'm not going to die from remembering it now. And for that to happen, this thing Called memory. Like the, the memory network has to open up, has to be activated. We have to have that felt sense of shame kind of come up for us. And the way that it then reconsolidates is if the, the memory network receives something new, something unexpected, the memory network of shame is expecting what Shame? Lots of dysregulation. They're expecting whoever they're with to like be not present, to be ignoring them, to be scary, to be, you know what, you know, whatever it was that caused shame in the first place. Right, exactly. So the way we kind of reconsolidate that memory network is when the expectation, when there's a mismatch in the expectation. That's really hard though. So if I go back to. I mean, that's hard in real life, like in real personal relationships. Super hard. Because when people are acting bad, which is how people are usually acting when they're kind of living out their shame, they're usually acting in ways that make other people not really want to be that nice to them. Yeah, no shit. Yeah. Self fulfilling prophecy. Totally. So they're. The experience is being confirmed. The shame experience being confirmed. Right. If we take it into that therapy room where it's technically a little easier for the therapist who isn't the friend or the spouse or the partner, Right. To offer up this quote unquote disconfirming experience. Right. So when I have kids who, you know, take a bucket of salmon, dump st sand and dump it over my head, or fling it at me, or lock me out of my own office, or run out the front door and climb on their parents car and jump on it, all of these things have happened. I'm a human being. I mean, I'm a therapist, but I'm still a human. Right. Like there is a part of me that wants to be like, what are you doing? Stop it. Don't throw sand, get off your parents car. Right. Bus, probably their parents are watching, they're in the waiting room, or they were in the session in the first place. And you know, that can come up for me as a therapist, like, oh my gosh, these people are watching me, have no idea what I'm doing. You know, all those kinds of things. Which just puts me much more likely of responding right. To this child's behavior and ex. In, in exactly the way that they're accepting, expecting. Right. Like my own disregulation, my own fear, thinking more about myself than them, all of that is kind, is confirming really their shame. So there's no magic intervention for shame. Like there's no play therapy tool or technique anybody's ever taught me. Accept presence, safety, co regulation. Like seeing the behavior as the shame and not just a bad, out of control kid, A boundary or whatever, whatever, whatever. The session ended. I mean, a lot of play therapists are taught to end sessions when kids are acting like this. And so I found there. I have just found there to be so much power and helping people or make sense of and organize in their own minds the chaos and confusion that they're seeing so that they can take a breath, right. And be like, oh, this is shame. Okay, I need to respond with safety. I need to respond with presence. I need to respond with a regulated self. So they play the art. Supposed to be like, but what am I actually supposed to do? Like, what do I actually say? And I'm like, who even knows what you're supposed to say? What do you say when the child's on top of their parents car jumping up and down? I don't know. Whatever you say, say it from a place of I'm. I see you, I see your shame. I know that that's not you. Like, I know that you aren't a bad kid. And we're here, and I'm going to stay with you here in this place. I will not leave you here alone. Where were you, kid?
- [40:25]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
I needed you, Robin. I was in a lot of me. I never figured out what the was wrong with me. Well, that. That truly was my.
- [40:37]
Robin Goebbels
I.
- [40:37]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
That was a huge, shaming, toxic shame experience for me was when I got sent to therapy at 9 years old because of my separation anxiety. And the therapist was not informed that my mom was an alcoholic and that my parents fought all the time, you know?
- [40:52]
Robin Goebbels
Right. I have such a hope, desire, passion, love. I don't know. To help other therapists be able to just see through the behavior better. And such a shortage. Oh, there's such a shortage.
- [41:15]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
One thing that I was thinking about as far as my toxic shame went was one thing. That one huge thing that really helped me to start breaking down the barriers of my toxic shame was the realization that I was suffering from complex ptsd, like in dating, because I could not like the fact that I would get into these relationships with such horrible people. Not, well, let's not say horrible people, sick people, because I was a sick person myself. But, like, the fact that I would get so hijacked as me immediately as I started dating them that I would literally like date somebody for like a few weeks and have it not work out and feel like I was gonna die. And feeling knowing cognitively that that's ridiculous.
- [42:07]
Robin Goebbels
Right.
- [42:08]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
But having no idea for so long that, like, what I was experiencing was a trauma response or when I would.
- [42:16]
Andrea
Be in relationships and.
- [42:17]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
And I would go to work, and I didn't understand why other people could, like, go to work and check out and not. And like, it wasn't. It wasn't. I was thinking about it in particular. I had this internship. I was. I think I was like, 24, 25.
- [42:35]
Andrea
And I was in this relationship with.
- [42:37]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
It was like six months, like, hell hole. And I could not. I mean, I couldn't focus for a damn second. And it was all part of my journey. Like, you know, I didn't get that.
- [42:48]
Andrea
Job because I was supposed to move.
- [42:49]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
To San Francisco because I was supposed to, you know, date two alcoholics named Brian back to back and then find my therapist and all this stuff. But, like, yeah, just the shame of not realizing that I really had no control over what I was thinking and what I was feeling and how I was behaving, that was so huge for me because, you know, some people be like, oh, that's so. Like, there would almost be, like, shame and, like, realizing that you have ptsd. But for me, it was, like, such a relief to know that, like, okay, like, I really actually don't have a choice or I didn't have a choice.
- [43:28]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah. I mean, I think any time we can make sense of something that feels like it doesn't make any sense. And also, we can do it in a way that, again, there's no shame or blame or judgment. Like, nobody. We're not a good person or a bad person because we got ptsd. It's just what happens. It's what the brain. I think we're an int.
- [43:47]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
We're an interesting person, in my opinion.
- [43:49]
Robin Goebbels
Absolutely. No kidding. That is very true. That is very true. And if we can. That the stunt I so often talk about, if we can begin the journey to be able to seeing our shame instead of just being at. And for most people, not for everybody, but for most people, there is an element of understanding what happened in the first place that caused this. Like, understanding this, like, oh, there's nothing wrong with me. This is a totally reasonable reaction to my circumstances. Not only was it reasonable, it's actually brilliant. Like, my nervous system and my protective system did exactly what it needed to do for me to be the most. Okay that was possible. And every time I would do something to kind of, like, recreate the experiences that led to the trauma in the first place. Right. Because we're walking through the world constantly, recreating our trauma constantly. Every time I did that, I did that so purposefully to give my mind the opportunity to have this disconfirming experience that I talked about. Every time I did that, I just hoped somebody would see me for who I really was, somebody would respond to me in the way I needed. And, man, was I tenacious. And continuing to do that. Yeah, continue to do.
- [45:29]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Sucks.
- [45:30]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah, it does totally suck. It really sucks.
- [45:38]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
What about the connection between toxic shame and, like, attachment styles?
- [45:46]
Robin Goebbels
I mean, I don't like to ever talk in absolutes. I don't necessarily think anything's ever 100%, but generally speaking, I'm gonna look at that disorganized attachment when I'm looking at the kind of experience of toxic shame, because the. The experiences that cause disorganized attachment are the same experiences that cause toxic shame.
- [46:08]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
I think it can be discouraging when people say there's. Or when people hear like, you know, if you got disorganized attachment style, you're screwed.
- [46:15]
Robin Goebbels
And I don't think that's the case.
- [46:17]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
But can you kind of discuss that?
- [46:20]
Robin Goebbels
Well, it kind of just what we already talked about with memory reconsolidation theory. I mean, our attachment styles are our memory networks. So they're memory networks of what we can. Of what our experience have been in the past that are helping us understand what to expect in the future in relationship. It's just memory. Memory absolutely can change. There's excellent proof about how memory changes. Attachment styles are very stable, yet they absolutely can change. Like, both of those things are true. What's tricky is that we're. The way that humans work is that we kind of. We set people up to interact with us, to respond to us, to behave towards us in the way that we expect them to. So, like, when my pockets of disorganization are online, I'm behaving in a way that is essentially setting other people up to respond to me in a disorganizing way. Which is one of the benefits of therapy, is that, theoretically speaking, therapists are more equipped to respond to us differently than the world. Yeah, yeah. Than just regular people. It's a. It's a big expectation of someone to kind of look past the behavior and respond in this.
- [47:51]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
And especially because we're attracting people into our life that are just going to.
- [47:54]
Robin Goebbels
Reaffirm those faulty beliefs that we hold. Totally. We're all just really. Yeah. There's a lot of attraction to each other, which, again, is brilliant. What we're Doing is setting up the opportunity for healing. Yes. Sometimes it works. A lot of times.
- [48:12]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
A lot of the time.
- [48:12]
Robin Goebbels
Sometimes it does. Yeah. Yeah.
- [48:15]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Once you get to a point where you're like, in a shitload of pain.
- [48:20]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah. So, I mean, I really, really think a couple things about attachment. One, that if we can shift the way we look at attachment as, you know, insecure attachment, including disorganized attachment is bad. Like, we have to shift away from that. And even if we just start doing it cognitively, it's not bad. It's brilliant. Our attachment adaptations are brilliant. They were exactly what we needed to do at the time. Yes, they have great cost. There's just no denying that. But both can be true. Totally. Both can be true. So we kind of start from that place to just re. Look reframing attachment and also recognizing that the neurobiology of shame is embedded into the circumstance. Circumstances that led to insecure attachment. So when we think about insecure attachment, even in ourselves, or we think about, oh, I have disorganized attachment, quote unquote, which I don't really look at it that way. But shame arises because shame is embedded in those neural networks. So I also don't think attachment is near as finite as most of us are taught that it is. Again, attachment is just. Attachment is just pockets of memory. Most of us have lots of different pockets of memory about relationships. We have secure experiences and therefore secure memory. You know, secure, I would say secure pockets of attachment. I absolutely have secure pockets of attachment. I would assume that you do as well, because we do get through the world. Right. Like, I don't really know you. I assume you're figuring out a way to pay your bills and kind of like, do life in some way, shape or form. Yeah, totally. And so what that tells me is there is some. There's something in the nervous system that does have some, like, solidness to it that's super duper hopeful. I assume not. Not every experience in your past that would be what creates your memory networks or have all been disorganizing. Not every single one know that there have been some that would maybe be what we'd call insecure anxious or insecure, avoidant. Or again, you actually can be both disorganized and secure. Disorganization as a classification. And attachment always has another classification in the research. And some people are disorganized and secure. So not being too Pollyanna, I think the science tells us that there is so much hope. So, so, so much hope. And the ability for, like, our memory networks to Shift and change.
- [51:26]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Well, I might blow your mind with some research that I'm conducting, but I think that there is an attachment condiment correlation.
- [51:37]
Robin Goebbels
Okay, tell me.
- [51:38]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Anxious attachers love their fucking condiments. Avoidance, Maybe a little mustard. Maybe nothing at all. I have been asking this question. I've maybe got, you know, a couple hundred people. It's like 90% true. So I'm wondering, can we maybe come up with a new healing technique that is incorporating condiments?
- [52:03]
Robin Goebbels
We could.
- [52:05]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
I'm a condiment. I hardcore anxious, hardcore condiment core.
- [52:10]
Robin Goebbels
I also love condiments. Love, love, love condiments. All the kind. I love my food to be wet and messy.
- [52:16]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
I sell merch that says condiment. Horror. Just letting you know.
- [52:20]
Robin Goebbels
I love that I might have to get some. So I have pretty equal pockets, actually of all. Like when I've done. Done an adult attachment interview, I have. I'm one. It's not a huge category, but some folks have like, pretty even all four. I happen to be one of those.
- [52:37]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
People spreading the wealth.
- [52:39]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah. So. And I. Absolutely I do. I love, love, love condiments. I love.
- [52:45]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
What's your favorite?
- [52:45]
Robin Goebbels
All of them. It really kind of depends.
- [52:48]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
I mean, gun to the head, what's your favorite condiment? You can only use one for the.
- [52:53]
Robin Goebbels
Rest of your life. Probably ketchup.
- [52:55]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Yeah, of course that. I also sh. Sell merch that says ketchup is king.
- [52:59]
Robin Goebbels
Because that's the answer. I also really love sugar, though, and says ketchup is just a way to have, you know, dip your fries in sugar. But. But I can also say as a play therapist that I don't know that we'd necessarily be inventing a new way of assessment. Assessment. Because there is something that we notice when kids are very messy with their play or do lots of mixing or are essentially squeezing the condiments everywhere and then like bathing in them. If you have condiments in the play therapy room. Okay.
- [53:37]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Saying there's some. There's some supporting research to support my theory for sure.
- [53:43]
Robin Goebbels
Okay, wonderful.
- [53:46]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
So I have a lot of parents that are listening that, you know, have just recently discovered that they're an adult child and that perhaps, you know, they have impacted their kids in some not so great ways. What are some subtle signs that a ch. You know, you talked about what. What you see in play therapy, but as parent at home or what are some subtle clues that somebody's child could be suffering from toxic shame?
- [54:27]
Robin Goebbels
I think I would be looking at clues, cues and clues that felt like really intense emotional dysregulation. Intense behavior or reactions that felt like it didn't match. Right. And that to be clear, this is not diagnostic. There are a lot of reasons why kids could have these behaviors, including just their own like different neurodivergence. Right. So, but if I'm going to start to get kind of curious, you know, intense emotional dysregulation, difficulty with like the kind of like the serve and return of relationship meaning, you know, if you have a kid who seems to be a little delayed, you know, maybe you have an eight year old who, who seems to have more like three year old play skills, right. And isn't really playing, you know, a game or taking turns or knowing that how their friend is feeling in play is important. All of these are, you know, relationship skills and help us with understanding what's happening inside of other people and, and then the serve and return of relationship. So if I, if I have a kid who's like really developmentally delayed and that certainly when kids are saying things like I hate my, I hate me, I wish I would die. A lot of times when I hear kids say words like I wish I was dead, I want to die, I certainly want to be aware of and assess for, you know, suicidality and the risk there. But I often see those words less about in, in little kids. Less about I want to do something to kill myself and more about again, like kind of like annihilation sense. Like that sense inside of me of disappearing. Right. And it can kind of get evoked in through those kinds of words. Play. That feels real again, like the chaos and confusion. So when I have parents that come in and they just, and they, they do say this. So I. The vast majority of the kids that I work with have experienced severe abuse and neglect in early childhood. And their parents describe them as. The name of my book is Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors. And the word baffling feels really accurate for these parents. Like their behavior doesn't make any sense and the way I respond to them feels like it doesn't make any sense. Like I feel like I become a different person. I don't know who this person is who's reacting to my child's behavior in this way. Those are some kind of clues that there may be some of. I would just call it kind of like this neurobiology of trauma, toxic stress, toxic shame, disorganized attachment, those kinds of things.
- [57:50]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
How have you approached or I. I'm sure that you've come across this quite often, but when you. Similar to my experience where you See that a child is be being scapegoated and being deemed the identified patient. Like, what are those conversations with parents sound like?
- [58:08]
Robin Goebbels
Look like? It's obviously super tricky because as a therapist now I am in this place of two, essentially kind of two different clients. Right. And it's hard to have two clients. Right. There's this child who needs a lot of advocacy, while also recognizing that how I approach it with the grownups has to be done in a way that is more most likely to keep this family involved in treatment. Yeah. Because it doesn't really do the kid any good for me to like come in super guns a blazing with the families and have that family not trust me and then not continue with treatment. And so this is really, really hard. And I work really hard to see the adults in the same way that I see the kids. That this is really hard when the child is my identified, you know, client. But that parents who hurt their kids are really, really hurting people. It doesn't make a lot. It doesn't make sense to hurt other people. And so when people are hurting other people, I have some cues and clues about their own, like neurobiology and their own past experiences and families who are scapegoating or there's an identified patient, like, that's part. Usually a part of their history somehow part of their own family legacy. And so nothing changes without compassion. Nothing changes without compassion. And so I have to work really hard to. And sometimes not that hard, but it depends on what's happening. But you know, to hold the parents and a lot of compassion as well. And then that, what I would just, I would say set boundaries, which can look like talking explicitly about what's happening and what I'm seeing and doing it with a lot of compassion, while also a lot of. And this needs to stop. We. We really need to work together to figure out how we can shift this for your child.
- [60:41]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Are you having experiences where parents are like flat out lying about what is actually going on in the home?
- [60:48]
Robin Goebbels
Yes, and without question, that is absolutely happening in the field of like child therapy. That's not exactly what's happening most of the time. And with the majority of my population, the most I've. My experience has largely been with kids who are in adoptive families. Okay. That doesn't make them immune to not being honest with me. Usually the lack of honesty is not deliberate. Like, it's not this intentional lie as opposed to kind of just the own way their own protective system is set up about like what kind of occurs to them to tell me so that doesn't happen with me specifically too terribly often.
- [61:41]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
How did you end up going down that route where that with the like adopted kids, how did that become your thing?
- [61:47]
Robin Goebbels
I think like a lot of us, I sort of just sort of stuck, stumbled into niche because of, you know, circumstances and things that were available to me immediately upon graduation and is like, oh, I knew this person and this was their area of expertise. And so they were my mentor. And then I always wanted to work with kids with histories. Well, I wouldn't have said this back then. We didn't have this language. But with histories of complex trauma has always been what I've wanted to do. And then I just happened to stumble into some mentors who were really experience in the adoption world. And the vast majority of kids who have been adopted from foster care, you know, that's even actually what I'm saying is they make sense. All of the kids who've been adopted from foster care have had experiences that would lead to, you know, complex trauma. So that just became what I did. I don't know.
- [62:43]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
I would love to have you back on to talk about that because that's something that I haven't really dove into. Definitely had some people reach out and want to hear more about that. So it's absolutely okay. What do you want to shell promote, sell, Whatever, Go for it lady.
- [63:02]
Robin Goebbels
Well, I have my own podcast like you said at the beginning and it is a podcast for parents and also have tons and tons and tons of professionals who listen to it that helps them with their work with kids. I have a book coming out in September, Raising kids with Big Baffling Behaviors. Brain, body, Sensory Strategies that really work.
- [63:22]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
That's the end of the book.
- [63:24]
Robin Goebbels
Just the title? Yeah, that's just the, that's just the title. We're putting all those words, all of them. I do a ton of teaching and training both for parents directly. I go to, you know, do parent conferences and also for therapists. I have an online community for parents of kids with what I say, big baffling behavior, vulnerable nervous systems. Most of them have have histories of trauma and toxic stress, though not all to support parents in that way. It's called the club the Clear. And I have a year long training program for professionals who work with the parents. So I don't train professionals to be play therapists anymore. I really, really love working with parents and supporting them and helping them like decode their kids behaviors and teaching the parents how to be for their kids, you know, what their kids need.
- [64:24]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
So basically you're doing nothing is what you're telling me like you have nothing going on is basically what I just.
- [64:28]
Robin Goebbels
I just like sit in the hospitality all day and. Yeah, well I loved this.
- [64:35]
Host (possibly co-host or interviewer)
Thank you so much for your time.
- [64:37]
Robin Goebbels
Yeah, this has been fun. It's been great to meet you. Thank you for what you're doing.
- [64:55]
Andrea
What's making you slow now as I let them go.
- [64:59]
Robin Goebbels
What you got to do. Yeah.
- [65:02]
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