Day In The Life Of A Plague Doctor

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal Episode Summary: Day In The Life Of A Plague Doctor Release Date: July 28, 2025
Host: Anthony Delaney and Maddie Pelling

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Day In The Life Of A Plague Doctor," hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddie Pelling delve into the grim reality of 17th-century Venice during the devastating plague outbreak of 1630-1631. Through a vivid narrative, Anthony embodies Lorenzo, a plague doctor, offering listeners an immersive glimpse into the daily struggles, responsibilities, and societal impacts faced by those on the front lines of this historical crisis.

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1. Setting the Scene: Venice During the Plague (02:22 - 06:57)

The episode opens with Anthony adopting the persona of Lorenzo, a plague doctor stationed on Lazzaretto Vecchio, Venice’s quarantine island. He describes the somber environment:

"The water laps gently at the crumbling stone quay. It's quiet and calm, though this does not reflect the dangers to come." ([02:39])

Maddie prompts Anthony to provide historical context, detailing the broader Italian epidemic:

"We're talking about a pretty significant death toll here as well. We're talking about 50,000 people in Venice alone, which is about a third of the city's population." ([06:28])

This section underscores the severity of the plague and sets the stage for exploring the role of the plague doctor in such a densely populated and interconnected city.

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2. The Plague Doctor’s Outfit: Function and Symbolism (08:47 - 15:17)

Anthony offers an in-depth look at the iconic plague doctor attire, explaining its practical and psychological components:

"The beak was meant to keep death out, but it has now become the very face of it." ([08:57])

He discusses the origins of the outfit, attributing it to Dr. Charles Delorme in France:

"He is credited with designing this outfit... in 1619 during a wave of plague." ([09:07])

Maddie and Anthony explore the various elements of the costume, from the waxed overcoat to the beaked mask stuffed with aromatic herbs intended to purify the air:

"This was supposed to filter and purify the air, of course." ([11:07])

They highlight how these features, while intended as protective measures, also created a disorienting and frightening presence for both the doctor and the public.

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3. Daily Duties of a Plague Doctor: Administration and Enforcement (16:36 - 35:37)

Anthony narrates Lorenzo’s journey through the Canareggio district, marked by over 50,000 deaths:

"If you do, you're kept in designated specific Quarters near hospital... separate from the general population." ([07:28])

Entering houses marked with red Xs or white crosses, Lorenzo encounters the harrowing symptoms of plague:

"You have of course, this horrendous fever, this intense rapid onset fever, and patients therefore often become delirious or even become unconscious within hours." ([29:15])

The doctors' attempts at treatment, though largely ineffective, are detailed:

"You could lance the buboes with a hot knife. So they cut open the swollen nymph loads to drain the poisonous humors." ([30:53])

Anthony emphasizes that the role was more about controlling the spread than curing, involving administrative tasks like certifying deaths and ordering the destruction of belongings:

"You need to instruct family members... you are allowing people's belongings... to be destroyed." ([33:33])

This segment highlights the dual role of the plague doctor as both a medical professional and a state enforcer, underscoring the immense authority and societal tension inherent in their position.

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4. Social Implications and Public Perception (27:51 - 35:37)

Maddie and Anthony discuss the societal fear and ostracization surrounding plague doctors:

"Because, you know, the locals are terrified. They do not want to see this person, because does he carry death with him?" ([26:51])

The psychological burden on both the doctors and the afflicted is explored, illustrating how plague doctors were both feared and isolated:

"You're living in isolation, slightly nobody wants to bloody see you." ([34:35])

Anthony reflects on the parallels between historical plagues and modern pandemics, noting the intensified fear and surveillance:

"Can you imagine what that would have been like going through those streets, going, there's a red X on that door." ([27:51])

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5. Administrative and Ceremonial Duties (35:37 - 37:13)

The responsibilities extend beyond medical care to include ceremonial duties like overseeing burials:

"They are overseeing the removal of corpses with plague work workers who are known as manati." ([35:37])

Anthony highlights the paradox of these administrators being both essential and ostracized:

"It's a grim undertaking on all accounts." ([36:13])

The life expectancy of plague doctors and their mortality rates are briefly touched upon, reinforcing the perilous nature of their role:

"Ultimately, you're heading for the grave... being burned or being interred." ([36:28])

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6. Reflections and Legacy (37:13 - 44:15)

Maddie visualizes typical plague doctor imagery, highlighting the eerie and dehumanizing aspects:

"You have the beak, the eyeglasses, the broad-rimmed hat... very off-putting and a little bit disconcerting." ([17:55])

Anthony contemplates the motivations behind becoming a plague doctor, acknowledging both reluctant acceptance and potential exploitation of power:

"They have contracts as well, which is just, just feels so civilized in what is a very uncivilized thing." ([20:41])

The episode concludes with reflections on the lasting impact of the plague on Venice, including architectural legacies like the Basilica di Santa Maria della Salute and the Festa della Salute festival:

"The legacy of plague in Venice is literally etched into the bricks and mortar of the city." ([40:37])

Maddie and Anthony muse on the personal and societal scars left by the plague, pondering the psychological toll on plague doctors and their communities:

"Is this a moment that stayed with them until their own deaths many years later?" ([43:11])

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Conclusion

"Day In The Life Of A Plague Doctor" offers a comprehensive exploration of the complex and harrowing existence of plague doctors in 17th-century Venice. Through engaging dialogue and detailed historical analysis, Anthony and Maddie illuminate the multifaceted roles these medical professionals played in combating one of history's most feared pandemics. The episode not only underscores the dire circumstances of the time but also reflects on the enduring legacies and lessons drawn from this dark chapter in history.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Maddie: "We're talking about a pretty significant death toll here as well. We're talking about 50,000 people in Venice alone, which is about a third of the city's population." ([06:28])

• Anthony: "The beak was meant to keep death out, but it has now become the very face of it." ([08:57])

• Maddie: "It's a startling transformation from protective measure to symbol of death." ([10:30])

• Anthony: "You are living in isolation, slightly nobody wants to bloody see you." ([34:35])

• Maddie: "Is this a moment that stayed with them until their own deaths many years later?" ([43:11])

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For More Information: Interested in exploring more intriguing historical narratives? Subscribe to After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal on History Hit for weekly dives into history's most mysterious and macabre stories.

Transcript

[Anthony]

Hello After Dark listeners. Now come here to me because we have some news.

[Maddie]

We are going on tour.

[Anthony]

You can enjoy After Dark live for the very first time this September 5th at the London Podcast Festival.

[Maddie]

We'll have more details for you coming very, very soon, but you can expect myself and Anthony and some very dark history.

[Anthony]

So follow the links in the show notes for more information and get your tickets before they go. And they are already going very fast. See you in September.

[Penn Holderness]

Hi, this is Penn and Kim Holderness from the Laugh Lines podcast.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Maddie]

Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie.

[Anthony]

And I'm Anthony.

[Maddie]

Now today Anthony is going full method for us. Never doubt his commitment to the cause as we cast him as a plague doctor in 17th century Venice.

[Anthony]

It's just after dawn on Lazzaretto Vecchio, Venice's island of the plague infected and the damned in the 17th century. The water laps gently at the crumbling stone quay. It's quiet and calm, though this does not reflect the dangers to come. Our doctor let's call him Lorenzo, though no one dares call him anything at all. Rises from his cot in the physician's quarters, a drafty little cell that smells like mould, rosemary and despair. He dons the infamous outfit, fresh from the streets of Paris. On goes his waxed canvas robe, still damp from yesterday's sweat and laden with the mist, misery of the dead. Gloves, boots, and then the piece de resistance, a leather mask shaped like a bird's beak, stuffed with mint, lavender and maybe a dash of wishful thinking. The beak was meant to keep death out, but it has now become the very face of it. Through the foggy glass eyeholes, the world looks smeared and distant. Honestly, that's probably for the best. With a grunt, Lorenzo boards a small boat bound for the main city. It creaks beneath him, like it knows why he travels and really wishes he wouldn't. Go ahead lies Venice. Beautiful, rotting, gasping. Already the death bells are tolling. He's not here to save anyone, not really. He's here to observe, record, and not to get coughed on. Yet in this masked figure, gliding now through the morning mist, some do see hope. Others, more astute, see a harbinger of death. This is after dark, and this is a day in the life of a plague doctor.

[Maddie]

Oh, I'm excited for this one. I do love a trip to Venice. Have you been to Venice, Anthony?

[Anthony]

I haven't. How have I not been? But I haven't. I need to go. I know it's ridiculous.

[Maddie]

I feel like we should go for the carnivale with the mask.

[Anthony]

Too many people.

[Maddie]

Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot about your hatred of human beings. Yes, my mistakes. I want to know the background to the Venetian plague. I want to know what's happening in this part of the world in this time period. Give me some context, please. If it's not too much trouble, I will.

[Anthony]

Listen, I've set some time aside for this, Maddie, so I might as well do it while I'm here. No, this is part of a wider Italian epidemic, actually. The Venetian plague specifically. So we're talking 1630 to 1631 here, right? It's part of the great Pl. 1629 to 1631. And this is significantly impacting great parts of northern Italy specifically. It is introduced, as we've seen, with other plagues that we've talked about or other pandemics that we've talked about at this time. It's introduced via trade routes. So we've seen this before, haven't we? And it's really because the world is opening up it also allows for the spread of plague. The first cases appear in venice around autumn 1630, and it spreads pretty rapidly because of the density of the population. And, you know, the way you were saying, look, let's go for the carnival. That's what I imagine when I imagine Venice. It's this dense population then and now. So I'm like, you know when you're supposed to go when it's not hot, so you're not getting all those smells.

[Maddie]

Like it's a stinky city, like, I would prefer to.

[Anthony]

I can't believe I'm not being. Anyway, look, we are talking about a pretty significant death toll here as well. We're talking about 50,000 people in Venice alone, which is about a third of the city's population, not to mention everything else that's going on in Northern Ital. So that is the background to our plague doctor's day. It's not the best news, and it's going to become even more of a reality for him as he moves through the day.

[Maddie]

So it's known as the plague island or the quarantine island. So, first of all, why are we waking up there? Where is Venice in relation to the island that we're on? What's the first things we do? And before we came on air, we were talking about not being morning people. Certainly I'm not a morning person. I. Even without the threat of plague, I can't be doing with the morning. I can't be getting up on time, don't need anyone to talk to me. So I couldn't be getting up, putting on a plague mask and going to tend to people. Just die quietly so I can eventually have a cup of tea.

[Anthony]

You're never late, though, Maddie. You're not, you know, even if you're not a morning person, you still function very well in the mornings. You've never been late for a recording session. So you know, you can. You do.

[Maddie]

I mean, I've managed to, like, function in society. Yes, but getting to that point is.

[Anthony]

Convincing yourself you want to.

[Maddie]

Yeah, exactly. Yes.

[Anthony]

So there's a few things going on there. So in this particular island, we are essentially in quarantine. Right. And if you've got the plague, or if you're tending to people with the plague, then that's why you would find yourself there, which, you know, makes sense. We understand this idea of isolating and isolation. Now, when it comes to disease control, you could, however, although Lorenzo doesn't, you could live in Venice itself. But if you do, you're kept in designated specific Quarters near hospital, say, or a magistrate's office where you can kind of be kept an eye on and you're separate from the general population so that you're not just weaving in and out, potentially spreading the disease. In Lorenzo's case, being on this little island, which he has to get a boat then into Venice, his movement is being restricted. You have to report into health magistrates. You can't live with your family or, you know, can't go to public events or whatever. Not that there'd be many going on at this time anyway because of the plague. But it's a very limited life that you're leading. So it really is, you know, it's an ask to ask somebody to be a plague doctor in the 17th century.

[Maddie]

Okay, so the elephant in the room is, of course, the plague doctor outfit was Lorenzo to film a Get Ready with Me video. What would we see him putting on?

[Anthony]

So, and I am going to do a bit something similar to this because it is fascinating. I have been provided with a mask. What is interesting is that it's so limiting. Like, it is a very, very limiting thing. You can't really see very much. Now, look, I haven't got a historically accurate thing and we'll share all this, but the origins of the outfit I would have thought were actually Venetian, but they're not, they're French. Dr. Charles Delorme is the guy who's responsible for this. And he was the chief physician to King Louis XIII in France, of course. And he is credited with designing this outfit or something very similar to it, in 1619 during a wave of plague outbr. So it is thought to have emerged because Delorme wanted to create a barrier between the doctor and, in their view, the miasma, the air that is around them, this bad air believed to carry disease. And okay, we don't have germ theory going on here. It's not that scientifically advanced. But he's onto something, right? Like there's something in this.

[Maddie]

Yes. And De Lum probably ended up saving people's lives because of this invention. Right. To a certain extent, I guess it offered some protection. Maybe it did help people. Why did it need to be so creepy looking?

[Anthony]

Isn't it weird? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or has it just taken on that, like, initially, was it just like, oh, there's a man dressed as a crow. And now because of its association with plague, we have this kind of intergenerational thing. I don't know, but it is certainly creepy.

[Maddie]

I think there's probably a level of that, but also like it's inherently creepy. The first time anyone put that outfit on, nobody was stood there going, that looks normal.

[Penn Holderness]

You look great, babe.

[Maddie]

Like immediately. No. Okay, so what are the actual components of the outfit? Because we've obviously got the beak is the most famous. But what are we looking at here?

[Anthony]

So it can vary, but let's talk about some of the staples. We have a long waxed overcoat, or sometimes it's just like a heavy leather canvas type thing, like a cloak. I suppose this is coated in wax or suet. And basically the, the design of this is meant to repel body fluids.

[Maddie]

I mean, that makes sense, right? Like, that is. Yeah, that is very sensible. Even today, that's like kind of PPE equipment. Obviously would not recommend replacing PPE equipment with a long waxed overcoat.

[Anthony]

With a cloak.

[Maddie]

Yeah, yeah, with a cloak. Just your doctor with a cloak on the ward. But, you know, I think that makes sense. That is logical to us, right?

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, no, I think it does. Right. It makes sense. There's. There's something to it. And then of course, we have the iconic beaked mask. And this, we all know this is stuffed with aromatic herbs, flowers, vinegar soaked sponges that we might have some lavender in there, some mint, some cloves.

[Maddie]

I mean, it's overwhelming. Like individually, the elements of that are not that bad. Aromatic herbs, flowers.

[Anthony]

Absolutely.

[Maddie]

Combine them together in a small space. Not great.

[Anthony]

This was supposed to filter and purify the air, of course. And this is the part where it becomes very disorienting because we have eyeglass pieces. Right. And they are set into the mask. Obviously they're meant to protect the eyes, but it's very disorienting. It's not. You don't have a full range of vision and it's. Yeah. Your world just becomes very enclosed. And the sound within that mask is also really fascinating because you can hear yourself breathe as well. So it becomes very kind of intense.

[Maddie]

Yeah, you're very aware of like your own body, your own health, like your own vitality. Like literally you can hear yourself breathing. And I suppose as well, like it's. If you're not the wearer, if you're near someone who is wearing it, it's disconcerting. And, you know, people spoke about, you know, like babies being born during the pandemic who then struggled with human faces being covered by masks. And later on, you know, how you sort of teach a child that that actually wasn't normal. And like they're meant to kind of learn to replicate adult facial expressions and that's how they communicate and how they learn from you. And that wasn't available in the same way during the pandemic. So I wonder if there's something. If you're, you know, if you're dying of plague or you're just terrified and living in this environment, someone comes over to you. It's so sort of non human, this beak with the eyes. You can't see the person very well. You can't tell their expressions. You can't. You probably can't hear them if they're speaking that well.

[Anthony]

Yeah, you can't. And that's one of the reasons why I'm not wearing it today, because able to hear a bloody word. I was saying it's really muffled. Like it's really, really muffled. You're so right. Like it's a frightening thing.

[Maddie]

Yeah, definitely. Okay, so there's a hat as well.

[Anthony]

Yeah. So this was just a traditional symbol of medical, of the medical profession in France, particularly where this look originates. Right. And you know, you're talking about this kind of sense of who is this? What is this? Well, the hat symbolizes who it is in many ways. It's going, this is part of this profession. You're somewhat safe. Ish. You're not, as it turns out. But yeah. So it's just identify that you're part of the medical profession is often made of leather as well, in order to help with the sanitization of it to whatever degree they had. Sanitization. Of course.

[Maddie]

This next element though is wild to me. This is a wooden cane that's used to says in my notes, examine patients from a distance. So I mean, obviously if you come across someone plague, you probably don't want to get that close to them. But as a medical professional and someone who's providing K, you do need to get up close and personal with these sickly people. And this is kind of. I mean, it's so dehumanising. I just can't really get my head around this.

[Anthony]

You can imagine, can't you, that the plague doctor wants to look at the buboes on your neck, for instance, but the blanket is covering them or whatever. So he gets his cane and he flips back the bedsheet or opens your shirt or whatever it is, because he is, even with the gloves, he's trying not to make actual contact there. But then, you know, what else are they going to do? He's not going to really put himself in the line of fire that much because you have to remember, as we said at the outset, they're not really trying to save people. Not really. It's more about kind of controlling it, if anything, and identifying where the disease is spreading. And that's certainly what we get once we get to Venice, you know.

[Maddie]

Yeah. I wonder as well, if the cane is kind of, you know, a way of keeping people away from you, these desperate people who are searching for medical care and hope and need some kind of cure, and if it's sort of a way of, you know, pushing them away and keeping yourself safe as well, not just in terms of the disease, but, you know, physically safe. So this is the outfit, how it appears in France, but it does make its way to Venice and is adopted there, right?

[Anthony]

It is, because Venice has one of the earliest public health systems in Europe. It's called the Magistrato alla Santia. And it was formed in the late 15th century and it had expanded pretty significantly by this point because they'd had so many repeated plague waves in Venice itself and knew about quarantine islands, they knew about health checkpoints, they had these state employed plague doctors. So they were concerned about identifying cases, keeping them isolated in order to stop spread. Again, it wasn't necessarily about curing, it was about stopping the spread.

[Maddie]

Yeah. And I suppose the thing to remember about Venice, right, is that it is a port city and one that trades with the rest of Europe, but also with the Mediterranean heading out to the east. You know, this is a hugely connected, connected and important place. And so you have all kinds of people from all places coming to it, bringing products, bringing news. All kinds of interactions are happening here. And so it makes sense that they would already understand about separating the islands, quarantining them, setting up these health checkpoints. You know, you can imagine ships and smaller boats being stopped as they approach the city to try and regulate this. Right. Like, it makes total sense to me that this, that Venice itself compared to other places, is already set up for this.

[Anthony]

Yeah. It also feeds into this idea because of all of this movement of people. We do know that by 1630, 1631 plague outbreak, that these plague outfits have made their way to Venice and they've been adopted in the Venetian Republic. They become state commissioned outfits, actually, for plague doctors who are serving on quarantine islands, making the rounds, seeing infected districts. There are local variations. This is kind of camp, but we get like, you know, different herbs in the beak, for instance, or we have modifications to the robe so they're making it fashion. But it's very much what has made its way from France because of all of this human Traffic.

[Maddie]

Yeah, love that. There's an image that I'm going to describe to you now. I know that this is from the 1650s, so it's a little bit later than the plague we're talking about here. And it's also from Rome, not Venice, of a character known as Dr. Beak of Rome, obsessed with this. And this is sort of black and white engraving, obviously from the 17th century. It is a fairly typical vision that you might have of the Plague Doctor. We've got the beak, we've got the eyeglasses, we've got the broad rimmed hat, we've got this cloak that is sort of sat over, almost like a sort of tunic situation. We have some very fancy 17th century shoes at the bottom with beautiful bows. They're gray.

[Anthony]

The shoes is literally all I'm looking at.

[Maddie]

The shoes are popping off like they're great. Which, you know, as you're dying on the floor of plague and the. The plague Doctor approaches you, you want to see some great shoes. So why not? He has a cane and I mean, is he pointing at something or is this attached to the end of the cane? There is a tiny, tiny hourglass with wings beneath it. And I suppose it's a sort of memento mori, you know, to remind people that time is running out. Not something you necessarily want to be reminded of that overtly when you are being approached by the Plague Doctor. But this is a kind of typical image. And the other thing, and we've seen this before in images of plague doctors that we've discussed previously on the show, he has on his hands very long claw like nails. And there is something kind of anthropomorphic about him, right. Like he's sort of, he's not quite human. He's very uncanny because of that removal. I mean, we can see he's standing sort of in profile and you can see one of his eyes looking out at us, but other than that, there's not really a hint of a human being. Well, I suppose the shoes are great, but like, you don't get a sense of the man beneath this at all. It's very off putting and a little bit disconcerting. And then the background of this image, we have another plague Doctor who is. He looks like he's chasing a group of children. They're sort of running away in fear. And you know, I suppose it's the thing like these are terrifying individuals, you know, who are, yes, maybe going to help you. But also that as you've mentioned earlier in this episode, they are kind of a harbinger of death. Like their presence in any city or town, like, kind of tells you things aren't going great. And in the background, the far background of this image, we do see a small town that is presumably being wrecked by plague.

[Anthony]

I mean, it's funny you mentioned that eye, because his eye in this image, because that's what I spent about two minutes just staring at yesterday. I was like, there is a person in there. Like it's so easy to forget. Like you were saying that there is a person involved in any of this and it's quite monstrous. Which leads you to ask the question then, why would anybody want to become a plague doctor? Right. Like, this doesn't seem like a very desirable gig. And for many people it's not. Because what we see is that it's young and inexperienced medical graduates who are coming into the profession. You might see some foreign doctors that are hired from outside the city. For instance, surgeons, apothecaries are doing this rather than licensed physicians, or Medici, as they were known, not to be confused.

[Maddie]

With the Medici family.

[Anthony]

The Medicis, yeah. And so we get some second rate practitioners who are unable to find other work. We get state employed civil servants as well, becoming plague doctors. Again, don't think of doctors. I know we keep saying this, but I think it's important to remember, don't necessarily think of doctors as healing in this context.

[Maddie]

This isn't your local gp.

[Anthony]

No, no, no. They're hired by the Venetian government in this case. And the city viewed this kind of public health service as a civic responsibility. And so they were contractually bound to the public health magistrates and many doctors kind of accepted these positions to advance their careers within the formation of the local government. So, you know, you get to know these people. If you survive it, then who knows what might happen next? Or as I said, because they have no better options available to them and they have contracts as well, which is just, just feels so civilized in what is a very uncivilized thing. But these contracts contain clauses like the doctor shall not leave the island without permission. The doctor shall not treat private citizens for money. So you're very much in the public's pocket for this and you're paid by the state, so it makes total sense and you get a bonus if you survive. And the longer you serve, the more bonuses you get. So there you go. Hi there, it's Anthony from After Dark. Now I want to tell you about a podcast that I think you'll like. It's called the Most Terrifying Places in America from the Travel Channel on the Most Terrifying Places in America. You will visit some of the creepiest locations across the United States. Go to a hotel in New England where guests wake up with scratches and head down the back roads in the Midwest where a hitchhiker vanishes mid sentence. Then meet the spirits of a Texas warship where the dead still walk the decks on each episode. Travel with ghost hunters, psychics and historians as they uncover the chilling truth behind America's paranormal hotspots. It's a podcast that's part cross country road trip, part post tour. If you like spooky dark stories, and I'm guessing you do as you're already listening to After Dark, this is another podcast that will be right up your street. Listen to most terrifying places in America wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Maddie]

You've given us a lot of context to sit with there. But for now, in terms of the day and the life, we are still on this island, this plague island, and we need to get to the city of Venice proper. So let's set off. Tell me what happens next in the day in the life of this particular plague doctor.

[Anthony]

So you're in your old boat, and then you get to the Canareggio, which is a dense, working class district that he's heading to first. This is pretty badly hit by plague. Obviously, I talked about the dense population. This is why it's spreading very quickly. The streets you will find are mostly deserted. If you look to the doors that are around you, you'll see E X's or white crosses. And these have been painted to denote the infected houses. So this is a very stereotypical plague image. Some also have candles in the windows, but others, you will notice the shutters are nailed shut.

[Maddie]

In London, this happened as well in the 17th century, and a lot of families would barricade themselves inside once they realized they were ill. So in an attempt to not spread it, but also, if your neighbors suspected you of having the plague, they might nail you into your own house and block up your doorway and then paint the red X or the white cross on the door. And so you get a lot of families, actually, and individuals who are trapped in their own homes and who either die lonely of plague or who actually starve to death because they actually aren't ill, but they simply cannot exit their own property. You can imagine the atmosphere in this Venetian, densely populated area. The nerves that must have been going on here.

[Anthony]

I think that's exactly right. Nerves, tension. And as a result, you have this need sometimes, not always, but for there either to be guards or health officials with the plague doctor, because this might be somebody who can come under attack if you're going into that kind of local area. Because, look, the locals are terrified. They do not want to see this person, because does he carry death with him? Like he. Is he a harbinger of death? I will say this. This occurred to me yesterday when I was looking at these notes. Can you imagine we always, fair or unfair, we always make this comparison when we're talking about plague between what we experience, because it's the closest thing we have when we were all experiencing COVID 19 restrictions. But can you imagine the stakes going up if we had to mark doors of people that we suspected of having plague or that did have plague? Can you imagine what that would have been like going through those streets, going, there's a red X on that door. Because the tension would just ra up so significantly if that started to happen. I think.

[Maddie]

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, you think about back to like, the lockdowns in Covid and people kind of grassing on their neighbours for, you know, going for two walks a day instead of one. And the kind of sort of local surveillance that people conducted on each other in this moment of, you know, great panic and tension and fear and, yes, this idea of, like, marking people out as having the plague and, you know, the fear of being marked out incorrectly would have been incredibly strong. And then you have the plague doctor themselves walking into this space and they're dressed as death, let's be honest, like literally a black crow. They have a very strong smell about them because of all the things that are in the beak. They're probably moving in a slightly uncanny way because of the costume that they're wearing. And also just, you know, the fact. Let's just remember that you've got these eyeglasses, but they're sort of like more to the side of this beak. They're not sat where your eyes kind of naturally sit. So presumably, in order for them to see, they're having to turn their head almost like a crow. The road, like, it's kind of bird like. Right. You know, strange movement as they. As they go and they've got maybe guards with them and they're being protected. And it's. It's palpable. This fear is completely palpable. So you make it through the streets and you go into one of these houses that is marked with a red X. What are you finding inside of it? What are the symptoms the sufferers are exhibiting and what can you actually do for them at this point?

[Anthony]

Well, we've seen this before, haven't we? These kind of buboes, the swollen black or purple nymph nodes we've seen. You'd find them in the armpits, in the groin and the neck. These are painful. People find them like about the size of an egg. So they're not. They're substantial things to be suddenly appearing on your body. You have of course, this horrendous fever, this intense rapid onset fever, and patients therefore often become delirious or even become unconscious within hours. Dark spots or gangrene, black pat from internal bleeding that you don't even know that that's happening. And that's why it becomes known as the Black Death, because of these black spots. I see.

[Maddie]

Do you know, I don't think I'd ever actually made that connection.

[Anthony]

Yeah. And it's just, isn't it kind of these people wouldn't have known that these black spots were internal bleeding. Like they just wouldn't have had the medical knowledge or insight to know that at the time. Well, certainly not the layperson. Coughing and vomiting we've talked about. You don't ever cough in a period drama without dying in the next episode or whatever it is. They're very much dying in the next episode because they're coughing and vomiting blood. And then of course, I mean, it goes without saying, doesn't it? But like extreme fatigue, chills, confusion, the body is in rapid decline. So many people will die from these symptoms. So it's, you know, it's end of life stuff.

[Maddie]

Yes. And it's amazing, as you say, the kind of rapidity with which you can be walking around one moment and you can be dead pretty much the next. So our doctor finds these symptoms. What is he doing to try and cure them? Are there any treatments that have any effect at this point? Or is it simply a case of standing over someone and watching them die.

[Anthony]

A little from column A and a little from column B? You could lance the buboes with a hot knife. So they cut open the swollen nymph loads to drain the poisonous humors. But of course that's actually not doing anything, you know what I mean? Like what we know now and probably.

[Maddie]

Just introducing more infection.

[Anthony]

Absolutely. Well, yes, when you think about it, you know, we've done the strange cures, haven't we? So they could be putting dead animals, pigeon carcasses on the bubos. Remember we talked about the chicken arse as well. So you're putting these things on there, as you say, possibly making things worse. Not that they're probably going to survive for 24 hours even at that point anyway. So, you know, they're on the way out. But it doesn't sound like cutting the bubos is doing anything. They may then try bloodletting. They try that for everything, don't they? It's just like, do you know what, we'll just get rid of a shitload of your blood. And just see how that fares. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the answer to everything. Put on a bit of an old vinegar compress. So we're trying to balance the humors, Maddy. Obviously, you know, we've all heard of this, but you know, this is very, very often making people even worse, as you say.

[Maddie]

Tell me then about the unicorn horn. What is this, please?

[Anthony]

Yeah, do you know what did we put this in our strange cures epis think it had been on the brief and then we were like, oh, people are going to be weird. There are no such things as unicorns. But they did call it unicorn horn. But actually what it is, it's probably, we think, a narwhal tusk. Certainly we found remnants of that and we. Not me, I haven't, but other historians have and archaeologists and they were, we think imported from the Arctic by way of northern Europe and trade routes again. So this is again bringing back this idea of trade and open routes. But it was thought that this was this kind of miraculous cure. It wasn't. But really we are talking about the administration of the dead. Right. For plague doctor, we said he's probably not going to be curing many of these people. So he's then also giving some sort of spiritual instruction documenting the deaths for the city records, keeping notes of how the symptoms progress, where the outbreaks are. And he's enforcing, along with potentially the guards that are with him, the quarantine. So that's I think more of the key role that he's performing here rather than again trying to cure anybody.

[Maddie]

So in lots of ways it is actually administrative, I think.

[Anthony]

So.

[Maddie]

Okay, so we've spent the morning walking the streets looking for plague houses that are marked out. We've seen some people, we've drained their blood, we've administered a unicorn horn to them. Etc, Etc. Presumably it's a very busy time. You're going to have to skip lunch. What are you doing in your lunch break break?

[Anthony]

You get your pret. No jokes. It's time for you now to certify some deaths. So you need to instruct family members as well, whether or not they need to seal or isolate themselves if a member of their family has died. You have to order infected bedding, furniture, clothing to be burned in the streets. Thanks very much. Or they might actually be taken as well. They might be taken to the island to be disinfected.

[Maddie]

I mean, that's so interesting because that's. You're being given such a. Such a amount of authority then to. Okay, you're doing the admin you know, you're certifying these deaths, but you're also telling people that they can't leave their homes. You are allowing people's belongings in a period when the material culture of your home is your wealth. It's how you present yourself to the world, but it's also how you invest your money and keep your money safe, that you're ordering these things to be destroyed, sometimes before people's eyes, or to be taken away from them and destroyed elsewhere. It's so interesting to me that this is a society that allows the plague doctor that authority.

[Anthony]

And you're not going to be popular, right? If you are taking all of that from these people, you are. No wonder you're living in isolation, slightly nobody wants to bloody see you.

[Maddie]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. And, you know, there's already a fear of these people because they represent death or the coming of death and are a sort of visual reminder of how serious things have got. But now also, they are causing you significant problems in other areas of your life. They're taking away your belongings and your freedom, all with the goal in mind of stopping the spread of disease. Mind you, it's not necessarily a vicious act, but I imagine, as is the case across human nature, across history, that there were some people working as plague doctors who maybe took advantage of this position to exert their own power. You can imagine people kind of manipulating families or enemies or, you know, people that they maybe wanted relationships with or access to. You know, you can see that this is a recipe for some disaster.

[Anthony]

It's a lot of authority, actually, isn't it? And it goes into very many different ways because, yeah, we've talked about access to bodies, we've talked about administrative functions. Then you also have to fulfill kind of funerary functions because you are overseeing the removal of corpses with plague work workers who are known as manati. And these are an underclass of gravedigger in many ways. They're corpse handlers. And yes, they're getting paid very well because of the risk to their lives. But again, outcasts, they're pariahs themselves because of their proximity to death. So this is, you know, a grim undertaking on all accounts.

[Maddie]

I'd love to know what the life expectancy was of one of the minati, the gravediggers, in this period. I mean, surely we're talking days. You can't be handling people who've died of plague and not catch it, surely.

[Anthony]

Unless somebody has some incredible natural immunity that they've built up. But that's going to Be one in however many thousand. So, yeah, like, ultimately, you're heading for the grave, which is funny enough, because that's how you might finish your day as a plague doctor, by overseeing mass burials and just bodies on top of bodies on top of bodies and being then burned or being interred, whatever, but certainly not formally buried, as you might kind of expect, and then hop on your boat and back to your plague island. So there's your beautiful day.

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[Maddie]

What does the evening look like then? What. What does the plague doctor do for relaxation? There's no Netflix and chill. So, like, how do you wind down from this?

[Anthony]

Well, I mean, depending on where you're positioned right, you'd need to kind of do your report, so you'd need to submit your daily reports.

[Maddie]

Okay, so there's a bit of homework then.

[Anthony]

Yeah, so we're not done yet. Like, it's. It's. Update your plague tallies, essentially. Clean equipment.

[Maddie]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

Get some of that rosemary and sage going again. Kill the disease. You would be eating alone, drinking alone, and I can imagine you might need a drink after this.

[Maddie]

Yeah, but that's. I mean, that's psychologically bleak after the day that you've had. Right?

[Anthony]

It really is. This is not something that you would aspire to. I mean, the money will have to have been worth it, you know, or the opportunities if you survive.

[Maddie]

Yeah. And then you go to bed and presumably dream of the horrors that you've seen all day and that you're gonna see all day tomorrow.

[Anthony]

Yeah. And, I mean, there was reports that some people slept in clothes soaked in vinegar to stop that spread of disease, or in sheets that were smoked cloth to kill the disease. So it's, you know, it's all very unpleasant.

[Maddie]

Absolutely. Not to that.

[Anthony]

We talked about those contracts and the hope was that at some point, yes, you're either going to be dead or we won't need you to be a plague doctor anymore, because the plague will have passed. And in this particular outbreak, 1630-1631, it does eventually begin to slow down. Isolation does work. Natural decline is happening. And the public health enforcement that the plague doctors are part of have all played a really big part. And it's, you know, relatively successfully handled, given the 17th century context. And of course, then you get the kind of, we've talked about this before, haven't we? But the religious response to this, it can't just be a health issue. It has to then become a kind of a moral one, too.

[Maddie]

Yeah, right. Like whenever the plague strikes Europe, in particular, Christian Europe, there's a lot of, like, you know, oh, it's a punishment from God, like we've done something wrong or certain people in society have done something wrong, so we should probably ostracize them and punish them, them first. Now we know that Venice is a religious city and one that has, you know, a sort of complex relationship between church and state. So what are the responses from the church and the state in Venice? What's going on?

[Anthony]

They kind of go hand in hand, I suppose, in many ways they help one another because the church helps to kind of facilitate a celebration of sorts where we're going to build a church. So, for instance, in 1631, the Basilica de Santa Maria della Salute, St. Mary of Health, is being built because that's a monument to the city's survival and that's, you know, made in conjunction with the government. You see plague imagery, votive art becoming part of Venetian identity around this time as well. But then we have this festival, as I said, so the Festa della Salute, which is established in 1631 and still observed on November 21st today. So the legacy of plague in Venice is literally etched into the bricks and mortar of the city. So it's. It wasn't just contained to that period in time. It's a real legacy for the city.

[Maddie]

Yeah, and I love how one of those legacies is masks, not necessarily the plague doctor masks, but, you know, that kind of covering of the face becomes part of the, as you say, the kind of the iconography, the aesthetic of the city, obviously, in a more playful and uplifting way. But, yeah, that's really fascinating. Would you do it? Would you be a plague doctor thinking about, about how, you know, it's pretty stable income in a time when the economy's ground to a halt and people are stuck in their homes, etc. Etc. You have the opportunity to help someone. You know, if we're going to sort of take at face value the motives for doing this, you know, maybe considering that some people would have done this for power or manipulation or whatever, but is it something that you would have looked to do? Or would you be swimming out of the Venice lagoon to a foreign shore immediately at the first whisper of plague outbreak?

[Anthony]

I would be intrigued, but only retrospectively. I think at the time I would have been like, none of that for me, please now. I mean, that is one of those historical moments that I am very intrigued by. The day to day actuality of that experience. If I could time travel, put it this way, if I was in the real time, maybe not, but if I could time travel and do it for 24 hours and hopefully survive and not bring back the plague. Mind you, there's antibiotics now, so it'd be fine.

[Maddie]

Yeah, you could just get smell antibiotics when you got home.

[Anthony]

Yeah, well, there you go. This is ideal actually. I've sorted it. Yes, but only in time travel, where I could be sure that I could come back and not die. Imagine moving through the world like that for even a very short amount of time, 612 months, whatever. It's a strange position to be put in and there's something very appealing about strangeness sometimes. But as you say, there's an awful lot of crap that can go on around it.

[Maddie]

I wonder what the fallout was for these people. Whether there were repercussions from serving as plague doctors in their own society, in their own communities, but also psychologically for the rest of their life. You know, is this a moment that stayed with them until their own deaths many years later? Potentially, you know, did this pass into family law? Oh, your great great grandfather was a plague doctor character. Is this something people were proud of, that they talked about? I have a lot of questions about this, but yeah, I think like you say, with the safety of hindsight and that historical distance, it's certainly an intriguing set of very fancy shoes to step into if that print is to be believed. But I think it would be too terrifying if you were in that moment. I think, yeah, I mean, you just.

[Anthony]

Want to stay with your friends, family.

[Maddie]

Surely you'd want to. I mean, maybe there are just better, more brave people out there than us. But I doubt it. Well, we are.

[Anthony]

We are the bravest people I know.

[Maddie]

Which is why we spend our time doing a podcast. And if you listener are still with us, thank you very much for listening. And if you have any suggestions of day in the lives that you would like to hear in history, it's something we're trying out a new friend format. Let's say get in [e-mail] that's after darkistoryhit.com See you next time.

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