Day in the Life of a Tudor Executioner

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

"Day in the Life of a Tudor Executioner"

Hosts: Anthony Delaney & Maddy Pelling
Date: November 10, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode takes listeners into the little-explored world of the Tudor executioner. Historians Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling explore the day-to-day realities of these shadowy figures, examining who they were, how they were chosen, their social status, and what actually happened on execution day. The show moves beyond the infamous deaths themselves to spotlight the people—often marginalized—who enacted the bloody will of the Tudor state.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ubiquity and Brutality of Tudor Executions

• Executions were a routine threat in Tudor times, with a broad array of crimes punishable by death, especially under Henry VIII (05:10).
• Quote:
  “Treason, heresy, rebellion, counterfeiting, murder, rape, robbery, bestiality, sodomy, witchcraft… These are things that are being taken from ecclesiastical hands at this point into a more formalized legal system.” — Anthony Delaney (05:10)

2. Methods of Execution

• Beheading (axe/sword) was reserved for high-status victims; hangings, burnings, boilings, and even ear removals were also practiced (06:08–13:42).
• Physical suffering was intentionally minimized (or not) depending on crime and status.
• Memorable Moment:
  Maddy and Anthony joke about the grisly choice between being burned or boiled alive, using dark humor to underline the period’s brutality (06:51).

3. The Executioner: Position, Stigma, and Recruitment

• Executioners formed a necessary yet reviled class—simultaneously wielded as instruments of power and shunned by polite society (09:40–11:44).
  • Recruitment often targeted criminals offered clemency in exchange for taking on the role.
  • Sometimes the job was inherited, passed from father to son.
• Many European cities (e.g., Nuremberg) explicitly banned executioners from public spaces (10:58).
• Quote:
  “This person was seen as being a weapon of state ... but at the same time they were also seen as being on the periphery...” — Anthony Delaney (09:40)

4. Economic Realities: Pay, Perks, and Side Hustles

• Payments were typically per execution (especially in London) or by salary outside major cities (14:25–15:44).
• Executioners earned extra by selling victims’ clothes and sometimes accepting bribes for a swift or less painful death (15:45–16:29).
• Executioners often also operated torture devices or acted as gravediggers, further emphasizing their marginalized role (12:23–13:28).
• Quote:
  “Tudor England is very much a gig economy in that sense… you might be asked to operate the torture devices.” — Anthony Delaney (12:23)

5. A Day in the Life at the Tower

• Executions at the Tower of London typically happened at dawn, attended by important officials (the Constable or Lieutenant of the Tower) (17:16–19:29).
• Scaffold construction was temporary, and only a select few (22 in total) were executed inside the Tower’s walls (20:13–21:00).
• Famous prisoners were executed inside for privacy and crowd control.
• Quote:
  “It’s just something so tangible and yet malleable about it. I just think it’s the most fascinating object from history, really...” — Maddy Pelling, on the scaffold (23:01)

6. The Process and Ceremony of Execution

• Executioners prioritized speed and efficiency, unlike later centuries where spectacle mattered more (23:20–24:46).
• Tools (axes, swords) were provided by the state, emphasizing that executions were a state function (23:58–24:00).
• “Headline” victims (e.g., Anne Boleyn) received special procedures, sometimes foreign executioners (Calais swordsman).
• Rituals included seeking forgiveness from the condemned and managing the emotional choreography of the event (26:18–27:28).
• Quote:
  “If you’re able to keep it [your dignity] away by keeping your hair away ... it’s still taking ownership over the end of your life.” — Anthony Delaney (26:18)

7. Post-Execution Duties and Staging

• The executioner would display the head (“Behold, the head of a traitor!”) as proof (31:14).
• They often had to control crowds, prevent relic-collecting, deliver possessions, and even coordinate rapid burials (32:29–33:32).
• Display of heads on London Bridge was common as a public warning (33:13–33:32).

8. Myths, Misdeeds, and Mishaps: Infamous Cases

• Margaret Pole (1541):
  A botched execution by a “blundering youth,” not the usual executioner, left her hacked to pieces (34:37–36:53).
  • Quote:
    “A wretched and blundering youth ... who literally hacked her head and shoulders to pieces in the most pitiful manner.” — Anthony Delaney (via Eustace Chapuy) (36:12)
• Anne Boleyn:
  A special French swordsman was imported for her beheading; many dignified touches (hair pinned, hidden sword) and subsequent lore surrounding the event (37:45–39:21).
• Thomas Derrick:
  Famous executioner, once a criminal, became known for his efficiency and ruthlessness—“Derrick” became slang for gallows (43:44–44:38).
• Final beheading at the Tower: Simon Fraser, 1747; the block is still on display (45:16–45:48).

9. Humanity and Legacy of the Executioner

• Executioners did not wear the classic black hood; they dressed like everyone else and were widely recognized (33:42–34:12).
• The proximity of execution instruments (blocks, blades) in museums evokes a visceral connection to history and its brutality (46:00–46:36).
• Executions shaped the façades of power, with executioners operating as both agents of and scapegoats for the state.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the blurred honor of death types:
  “The closer the weapon of death is to natural elements, the less honourable it was... But if you’re being beheaded with a man made blade, there’s more honor in that.” — Anthony Delaney (07:46)
• On executing efficiently:
  “You want to take you from your cell to having your head off ... in 10, 20 minutes. The whole thing done in that kind of attack.” — Anthony Delaney (23:36)
• On the dark business of death: “There is a real opportunity here for additional income ... [like] selling the stories.” — Anthony Delaney (16:29)
• On the executioner’s visible role:
  “You just blend from normal society into this role and then back into normal society because they’re just in their normal clothes.” — Anthony Delaney (33:44)
• Margaret Pole’s botched end:
  “A wretched and blundering youth ... who literally hacked her head and shoulders to pieces in the most pitiful manner.” (36:12)
• On controlling the narrative post-execution:
  “Because it’s pointless if they can’t control the narrative. That’s the whole point. Of executing somebody.” — Anthony Delaney (32:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:03–02:58 — Opening narration and setting the tone
• 05:10 — Reasons for execution under Henry VIII
• 06:08–07:16 — Methods of execution (axe, sword, hanging, burning, boiling)
• 09:40–10:46 — Social position and recruitment of executioners
• 12:23–13:28 — The “gig economy”: torture devices, grave digging, and other duties
• 15:03–16:29 — Pay, clothing/jewelry sales, and bribery for humane deaths
• 17:16–19:29 — The executioner’s day and location, Tower of London logistics
• 20:13–21:00 — Only 22 executions ever inside the Tower of London
• 23:20–24:46 — The ceremony, the state-supplied axe, and speed of the act
• 24:49–27:28 — Interaction with the condemned, forgiveness ritual, and executioner etiquette
• 31:14–33:32 — Displaying the head, manipulating the crowd, and managing relics
• 34:37–36:53 — Margaret Pole’s “blundering youth” execution
• 37:45–39:21 — Anne Boleyn: imported executioner, ceremonial details
• 43:44–44:38 — Thomas Derrick and the criminal-to-executioner pipeline
• 45:16–45:48 — Final beheading at the Tower of London and execution artifacts
• 46:00–46:36 — Reflections on seeing execution tools in museums

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Tone & Language

• Conversational, occasionally darkly humorous (“You always complain about being too warm, so please don’t boil me alive.” – 07:16)
• Blunt about gore, but sensitive to the significance of the subject matter (“It’s meant to be dignified on both sides. Even though it’s a brutal, brutal thing.” – 37:05)
• Blends deep scholarship with lively banter (“Do you think you could do a job like that in the past?” – 09:25)

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Conclusion

This episode navigates the gruesome, complex, and socially fraught world of Tudor executioners—those little-remembered agents of the state who existed simultaneously as outcasts and the sovereign's enforcers. Through vivid storytelling, detailed case studies, and pointed reflection on material remains (from structures to swords), Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling leave listeners with a nuanced appreciation for the machinery and meaning of death in Tudor England.

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For more on history's dark side, past episodes include explorations of Anne Boleyn, Mary Queen of Scots, and even the working life of famous 20th-century executioner Albert Pierrepoint.

Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and.

[Maddy Pelling]

Maddy Pelling and if you would like.

[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

He lurked in the margins, ignored, strangely invisible given his profession. No one was watching him as he woke somewhere in London before the dawn and made his way through the frosty streets to the tower. No one cared as he nodded at acquaintances and received his orders. He was alone when he and his axe were reunited, and as he sharpened its edges, even as he took his place on the scaffold, he was unremarked by the chroniclers that were present. It was only as he raised that glinting Axe up into the sky. That suddenly, for an instant, he appeared in full color, all eyes riveted on him and the blade of Tudor justice held in his hand.

[Anthony Delaney]

Tudor history is full of stories of execution, but one figure always gets forgotten. The man who swings the axe. Who were the Tudor executioners? How did you become one? And what did they do on execution Day? This is a day in the life of a Tudor executioner. Welcome to After Dark.

[Maddy Pelling]

Executions were, in many ways the grit and grist of the Tudor period. A constant threat and a constant possibility. The list of famous names murdered in this way is long. We've covered a lot of these histories on After Dark already. We've done the Final Days of Anne Boleyn, Lady Jane Grey with Tracey Boorman. Final Days of Mary Queen of Scots with Jade Scott. Do you remember any of these, Anthony? They're ringing a bell.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, I've heard of all of those people, both living and dead.

[Maddy Pelling]

Congratulations. Well done. The dementia has not got you. We have also looked at the life of an executioner before, but not a Tudor one. And this was in your episode that we did on Albert Pierpoint, which was a fantastic episode. What an interesting story.

[Anthony Delaney]

That feels like a long time ago.

[Maddy Pelling]

That was quite an early one, I think. Yeah, yeah, Go back and find that in the back catalogue. Today, though, we're asking about the Tudor executioner, what we know about them and what they can teach us. Anthony.

[Anthony Delaney]

And nobody knows about the Tudors. Nobody cares about. The Tudors go into a very niche part of the past now, no. Tutors are obviously very popular as a topic, but also execution. So when the two worlds collide, like, if you do think about Tudors, one of the first things that does come into your mind after the monarchs is some form of execution, punishment, that kind of thing. And it's so. It does lend itself. But one of the reasons it lends itself so easily to this joined up thinking around execution and Tudorness is because there were so many reasons under, let's say, Henry viii, specifically after the dissolution of the monasteries, that you could be executed for.

[Maddy Pelling]

Go on.

[Anthony Delaney]

Here is the list. Treason, heresy, rebellion, counterfeiting, murder, rape, robbery, bestiality, sodomy, witchcraft, which is rarer than you think, but it was in there too. So there is a list that you can ream off. These are things that are being taken from ecclesiastical hands at this point into a more formalized legal system. And this is why the list kind of grows and grows and grows. And then over time, it starts to diminish. And all of these Things don't come up, but they're certainly at this time. Reign of Henry VIII, 1530s, 1540s. These are some of the things that you could expect to be dead for.

[Maddy Pelling]

Early sidebar for immediately going off the rails. One of my ancestors in the 18th century, so not the Tudor period, was hanged for counterfeiting coins.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, hanged. Not just. I thought that. I didn't realise they were hanged.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, fully hanged. But in this period that we're talking about specifically. Tell me about the types of ways you can be executed. Because I'm picturing axe or maybe possibly the sword. But there are actually. There's quite a significant variety.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, axe and sword are definitely part of it as well. They're a popular choice in the beheading category, usually for people who are relatively high ranking. But you could also be hanged, and you could be hanged for murder, theft, robbery or rape.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so they're sort of like your run of the mill crimes. Not to downplay them, but they're not threatening the realm necessarily.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. Then you could be hanged, drawn and quartered.

[Maddy Pelling]

No, thank you.

[Anthony Delaney]

For treason, of course. We kind of know that one. You could be burnt alive for heresy. This is where those witchcraft things come in.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, none of these are preferable, I think, if you had to be. It's gonna be beheading just for the swift, I think.

[Anthony Delaney]

Of course, there's being boiled alive. Now that's exceedingly rare, but that is gruesome.

[Maddy Pelling]

I can't decide what's worse, the burning or the being boiled alive.

[Anthony Delaney]

I think the boiling. Often what you'll find is with executioners, which we're gonna talk about what a day in the life of a Tudor executioner might look like. You'll find that they can be paid to strangle you before you get to the burning part of it. And I'm sure the same could apply to the boiling, actually, but for me it'd be the boiling. I think that's not the one that I want to.

[Maddy Pelling]

Also, you're always too warm.

[Anthony Delaney]

Walls are too warm. It's just about body temperature, really. Nothing else.

[Maddy Pelling]

Please don't make me any warmer. I'm uncomfortable. Okay, so those are the list of things. When is the first recorded execution at the Tower of London? Because I'm thinking we're going to be discussing the Tower of London as a central location.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, you do think of it, don't you? Especially in terms of English heart of execution. Tower of London definitely comes up, and then maybe later Newgate. So you're talking 1381 around the peasants Revolt and it's which we did an.

[Maddy Pelling]

Episode on two episodes.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'd agree with that if we did. Correct. And it was actually the revolutionaries, the rebels themselves who carried out that execution. They were, you know, overseeing a slight element of lawlessness. And one of the things which I find interesting, keep this in mind as we go through some of these details. But just as a contextual thing, I like the detail. I don't know why. The closer the weapon of death is to natural elements, the less honourable it was. So for instance, if you're drowning by water, not an honorable death. If you're being burnt by fire, not an honorable death. But if you're being beheaded with a man made blade, there's more honor in that. I just think that's really interesting. There's something like mythical, magical about that a little bit in terms of belief systems.

[Maddy Pelling]

That is really interesting. I've never stopped to consider that before. Yeah, I suppose it's sort of that visceral, very grim way of dying by some kind of element. There's something not very sophisticated about it. Whereas if you're cut with a steel or iron blade, I suppose there is more sophistication, there's more kind of elevation of the form. It's almost an art form of death.

[Anthony Delaney]

But you know what it's also doing is it's either injecting or taking out suffering.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Or, well, physical suffering. There will be plenty of anguish, I'm sure, if you're heading to the scaffold to be beheaded. But the physical suffering should all go well and we will encounter instances where it doesn't all go so well. Should be relatively short lived.

[Maddy Pelling]

But we're not here to talk about these poor unfortunate souls who are being executed. We're here to talk about the executioner. So how does one go about applying for the job?

[Anthony Delaney]

You're thinking of. Thinking of putting your name in the hat.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do you think that you could do a job like that in the past?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, I don't think I could. I don't think I could.

[Maddy Pelling]

Even though you are quite comfortable with the idea of death, I don't think you could take someone's life very.

[Anthony Delaney]

This death is not a problem. But taking somebody's well and good for me that I'm not comfortable with killing people, I suppose.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well done.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. So how did you become an executioner, the Tudor era? Well, it's funny because this person was seen as being a weapon of state. This is somebody who was necessary for the state to function, but at the same time they were also seen as being on the periphery of that society or being an undesirable member of that state by necessity.

[Maddy Pelling]

Because they are killing people.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. There's two elements to this. One being that they are being extracted from often criminals. So in the criminal class, so often it'll be a case of going, right, you've been arrested, you've been arrested, you've been arrested. And we'll see an example of this later. I'll give you the chance to be an executioner.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do you want to execute your mates?

[Anthony Delaney]

Exactly.

[Maddy Pelling]

And do you get to skip the death part?

[Anthony Delaney]

Exactly. You are there for providing the function of state and you are being part of the legal system in your own way. So that's one of the reasons why you're on the periphery. But then also think of the unseemliness of having to be an executioner and the executioner turning up a court, for instance. Unheard of. It wouldn't happen in that sense. So you are doubly confined. So you really do need to be comfortable occupying these outer limits of society.

[Maddy Pelling]

So we know that executioners were, I suppose, a necessary evil in society, but they were also, as you say, pushed the limits. In some places they were actually banned from public spaces, weren't they? People who had served or were serving as executioners.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. We have an example in Nuremberg that executioners are not allowed to fraternize within bathhouses, in taverns or in other public buildings. So this is during the 1570s. So, you know, we're not in England for Tudor ness here.

[Maddy Pelling]

We're really a participant in society.

[Anthony Delaney]

You fulfill a very specific function and that bars you from other leisurely enjoyable functions. But one of the things I find this is so interesting, and we see this even into the 20th century, despite the ways in which an executioner might be propagated, that is, I'm taking you from the criminal class. It was also potentially an inherited position, so it would pass from father to son. And I think there's something really interesting about that going, listen, it's our family's legacy that to be on the margins of society. Yeah. So I think that's interesting.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Like grave diggers. So there aren't that many motivations necessarily for doing this job. You can make money doing it. And of course, often the families or the close personal friends of the person who's died will pay you a fee to access their body and take it away for burial after you've killed them. So there is that. You can make money. And it may be that you've escaped the scaffold yourself and in order to become an executioner. So I can understand why people end up in the role. But it's not simply a case of turning up on an appointed date, taking someone's life in a very choreographed, controlled environment, and then going home again. There are other responsibilities on there.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a big part of that choreography that you're talking about. But Tudor England is very much a gig economy in that sense, in that you're going to be doing other things. You know, there's going to be many channels of income coming in. So if you are being put in this position, then you also might be asked to operate the torture devices during questioning, for instance, because again, think of how lowly that is as an activity. You might be asked to stretch and how distasteful. Right, exactly. Yeah. And it fits into that same vernacular, right. Of going, oh, we don't have to. Don't bring this into Glide society. Exactly. Somebody needs to do it.

[Maddy Pelling]

But the hypocrisy.

[Anthony Delaney]

We don't need to see it. Yeah, we could be stretching people on the rack. There was the scavenger's daughter, which was forcing people into really tight spaces. These people are volunteering to be put into those positions. You mentioned grave digging. There was often an overlap between grave digging and an executioner, especially if nobody.

[Maddy Pelling]

Came forward to claim the body as the executioner.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, it was going to have to get rid of the body. Absolutely. They could potentially be involved in ear cutting, which was another type of punishment.

[Maddy Pelling]

So again, what would that be for?

[Anthony Delaney]

Different things. But you could have your ear cut for sedition. So talking about, oh, okay, so visual.

[Maddy Pelling]

Permanent damage to the body, but nothing that's gonna stop you from operating heavy machinery.

[Anthony Delaney]

So maybe criticizing the ca. Well, I mean, that also goes into treason. But like, you could talk about criticizing the church, for instance, or, you know, so it's definitely something that, as you say, is a visual public reminder you're walking through your town or village, your ear is clipped. People know what's going on and this is a warning sign to them. But this is also potentially the executioner that is doing that. But to bear in mind, again, we're talking about the executioner operating within a legal system. The executioner doesn't decide that these punishments need to be enacted. He just enacts.

[Maddy Pelling]

He's just doing the job.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, it's a judge. It's a. It's a very well respected, respectful person in that society who's handing that down. But God forbid he might get his Hands dirty. So we're giving it to the executioner to do.

[Maddy Pelling]

Talk to me about money, how much they're getting paid.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's interesting because despite all of this, I'm not selling it, really. I'm hardly here going, you should already want to be an executioner.

[Maddy Pelling]

Because it doesn't sound like a great.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, it sounds pretty crass. But you could actually make money. And that was one of the appeals for fathers to pass the trade, if you will, on to their son.

[Maddy Pelling]

It was a trade, right. Like it required skill, especially for the good ones.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. For the ones who are really, really good at it, then, yes, there was definitely skill.

[Maddy Pelling]

We talk about people who are not so good at.

[Anthony Delaney]

We are, as it happens. But you are paid in that sense per execution. Now, executions are relatively formal. They're relatively rare, actually.

[Maddy Pelling]

So you've got to hope that you live in an area where there's a judge or several judges who are particularly mean spirited.

[Anthony Delaney]

You want to hope that you're in London at least. Right. Because that's going to. That's a good starting point. You want to hope that there's some kind of a link to you and the Tower of London that you can get in there, because that's a busy point of execution. But it also highlights the need, as we've been talking about, for other employment. But it also then talks about how there are other things that are part of this process. Then you've already alluded to this, actually, that can gain you money. I will say, just in terms of that outside of London thing, London you are paid per execution, but outside of London it's a civic role. So you are actually getting baseline rate.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

That will keep you in comfort or means for a while. But you can also, to supplement that, whether you're in London or not, you can also sell the clothes of the dead. That's. Clothes are. We know this. We've said it a million times on this podcast. Clothes are an expensive commodity. Anything else that might be found on the body.

[Maddy Pelling]

Jewelry.

[Anthony Delaney]

Jewelry, Exactly. And they will all have known this going in to be executed. So they will already probably have rid themselves of a great part of the really valuable story I'm thinking about in.

[Maddy Pelling]

Any cinematic depiction of Anne Boleyn's death, where she takes off her famous bee necklace, that's always included, isn't it?

[Anthony Delaney]

And good transition there. Because the other thing is those being executed, if they had the means, they would pay the executioner to try and ensure that their dispatch was relatively humane.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Okay. Oh, wow. So if you couldn't pay. You might expect a bit of a botch job.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Or at least you would endure the fear of potentially having a botch job. So there are other ways to ensure that you're not having a messy death or a clean death or a dramatic death. And sometimes that involves, as I've already alluded to, strangling before certain burning or whatever it might be. There is a real opportunity here for additional income. And that translates itself later in the 18th century into the ordinaries in Newgate Prison who are hearing these confessions. You know, we're skipping ahead now 300 years, but it just shows financial commodity that can be made around the business of death. Where you're selling these stories is another way to get that vote.

[Maddy Pelling]

Everybody takes advantage at every stage of this journey.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so we're an executioner in Tudor London. Let's say that we work at the Tower of London or we're headed there today. Talk me through a day in the life. What are you having for breakfast?

[Anthony Delaney]

A person's life, actually. The life force of another human being, apparently. No. So it's interesting because executions tend to happen at the Tower of London. Yeah. Let's say there specifically.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's what it says in my notes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, good. Okay. She's not just going with it. She's been instructed it's happening early morning. And actually it does fit in with what we've been said, like this, Misty, you know, because I could not wait.

[Maddy Pelling]

All day to die.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, this is true.

[Maddy Pelling]

But actually, I'm sure everyone stayed up the night before freaking out.

[Anthony Delaney]

But there is something about that going. Is it slightly merciful to get rid of people, dispatch people early in the day, but also to limit maybe the amount of people that are flocking to these places so that it'll be done before people are.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's a really good point.

[Anthony Delaney]

Rebel or try and steal the body. Because these are the points.

[Maddy Pelling]

And they can't have been in the tavern all day before they even see the spectacle again.

[Anthony Delaney]

This changes by the time we get to the 18th century. Like, bear that in mind. It does become more raucous. But for now, we're going early in the morning when we're in the Tower of London. The executioner would probably be living within walking distance in the 16th, 17th century of the Tower.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, you don't want to be late because the tube was delayed.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no. And listen, tubes are a nightmare, even in the 16th century.

[Maddy Pelling]

Especially then.

[Anthony Delaney]

But we know, and I love this detail, we know that there is a family of executioners, a father and son who are both simultaneously in the trade. And they're living on Royal Mint street, which is very near the terrible. Isn't that for some. I found that really tantalizing, where it's like, there's their house. They know you pass by that house.

[Maddy Pelling]

Knowing what they do. Yeah, yeah. You wouldn't want to be the postman for it, having to put stuff through the letterbox.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're up early morning, you're probably up before light. You're making your way to the Tower for dawn. Ish. The mist is starting to rise off the grass in the Tower of London. Exactly. Then you're going to meet with the constable of the Tower. So the person in charge of the Tower overall or with the lieutenant of the Tower. So you're meeting with either or both of those. Just know what's going to happen. You are not meeting with the condemned themselves. Whereas in the 20th century, when we talked about Pierpoint, he was weighing people to know that the right drop.

[Maddy Pelling]

He was. I mean, he had a very intimate relationship with the people that he killed. Actually, it was a very personal thing for him, which was in and of itself quite frightening.

[Anthony Delaney]

And he would look at them and estimate. Remember, it was quite secret.

[Maddy Pelling]

He used to guess people's ways.

[Anthony Delaney]

Exactly. The prisoner wouldn't know that they were being looked at necessarily at that moment in time, but.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God. Yeah. He used to observe them for a.

[Anthony Delaney]

Long time and he was very good at knowing what their weight would be and therefore. And how to keep managing the drop. None of that is happening in this time. It's a little cruder than that, as you could well imagine.

[Maddy Pelling]

So it's about the ceremony of execution, not about the person being executed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Except if you are Anne Boelyn, for instance, or if you are a big name, if you're, you know, a headline act.

[Maddy Pelling]

A headline act at the Tower of.

[Anthony Delaney]

London that's about to be killed.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Then it does start to matter who you are, because what they will do is if you are one of those big names, they'll keep you within the walls of the Tower to keep out the rabble. And if not, then you can be executed outside the wall. Either way, a scaffold will be erected. Again, we're familiar with this with Anne Boleyn, aren't we? We have this idea that the scaffold is going up within the Tower walls. In her case, common prisoners, as I say, will be executed outside the Tower walls. But this was a bit of a surprise to me because in the entire history of the Tower of London. So we're talking here from 1078 thereabouts until. Well, even up until today, only 22 people have been executed inside. Still low, though.

[Maddy Pelling]

Surprisingly low amount, I thought so.

[Anthony Delaney]

The last being in 1941.

[Maddy Pelling]

I did know this. Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Which is Joseph Jacobs, a German spy, and he was executed by firing squad inside the walls.

[Maddy Pelling]

So we should do an episode on him. That'd be really good.

[Anthony Delaney]

That'd be really good, yes. We need to do a little bit more war stuff, actually. I think I'm getting really.

[Maddy Pelling]

I. Anthony's become a world war enthusiast.

[Anthony Delaney]

Don't know where that's come from. Yeah, well, Erik Larson's to blame, that's who you can blame. But, yeah, that would be a really good one, actually. We imagine the Tower as this place of death, but actually, in terms of executions, given the thousands of years over which it spans, it's not that many. It's not that many.

[Maddy Pelling]

And we should say as well, the Tower of London wasn't particularly notorious for torture as well in this period. We've spoken about torture happening in the Tudor era, but it's not like this was happening all the time at the Tower of London. So everything's a little bit more muted than I thought it would be. But take me to the moment of execution itself, though, because we've got the scaffold set up, which, by the way, I think is just such a fascinating literal construct, that temporary space. And who gets to share that platform? The performance, you know, it's a stage, the performance that takes place on it, the terrifying walk up the steps for the prisoner.

[Anthony Delaney]

And even if there is. Even if they're inside the walls, there is still an audience.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Anthony Delaney]

You know, there's still people gathered and.

[Maddy Pelling]

You'D be aware, like Anne Boleyn was. And we are going to talk in more detail about her, you know, of the windows, people watching. Is someone going to call for your reprieve at the last moment?

[Anthony Delaney]

And the other prisoners are aware that this is happening outside, Are they waiting to be executed too? You know, like what that does.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, this is such a kind of performative thing. And then the moment when the prisoner becomes a deceased body on that same space and it's suddenly soaked with blood, that transformation, I just find that so fascinating. And the fact that the scaffold didn't always stand as a permanent thing.

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[Maddy Pelling]

That it would be deconstructed and then built again afresh, and it just something so tangible and yet malleable about it. I just think it's the most fascinating.

[Anthony Delaney]

Object from history, really, when you describe it like that. A bit like kind of like it appears and disappears.

[Maddy Pelling]

It disappears with need. This terrible moment of brutality and then it's gone as quickly as it came. But talk to me about this moment of execution, though. If you are the executioner, what are you doing in the moments leading up to the death of that person?

[Anthony Delaney]

You're trying to get this done as quickly as you possibly can, which I was hoping.

[Maddy Pelling]

So efficiency is a thing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Again, you know, you and I always talk about this, but like coming from an 18th century point of view, quickness is not the drive of the day.

[Maddy Pelling]

Especially when showmanship and spectacle is involved.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Whereas with this, they want to take you from your cell to having your head off, let's say in 10, 20 minutes. The whole thing done in that kind of attack.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, I'd appreciate that.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's the only way to do it, isn't it? It's almost like go quickly. So they can't almost process what is happening here. The axe, I thought this is so interesting. The axe is not the executioner's. It's provided by the state.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, that's fascinating because.

[Anthony Delaney]

Or the sword, by the way.

[Maddy Pelling]

So it's a tool and it's ceremonial, like the scepter and all the royal who's on the throne. It's this giving over of this tool. And I suppose as well, it sort of takes some of the responsibility from you. You're not bringing your own weapon to do this. It's not a murder out on the street that it's state endorsed. And this ceremonial object is part of that.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And it also kind of alleviates your responsibility to a certain extent. Yeah. Ceremonial. So you would arrive at your platform that has been construct. You will see a block and an axe or a sword in front of you. That's where you're going to be required to kneel and place your neck on that during this time. Again, keep things moving quickly so the prisoner doesn't have much time.

[Maddy Pelling]

And are you engaging with the prisoner? To a certain extent. Right. So you might speak to them now.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, they're probably having last rites now. They're actually engaging with a lot of other people around before they're engaged. Exactly. Or they're ladies in waiting. If you're Anne Boleyn or whoever it might be. There are people within proximity that are dealing with that soon to be deceased first.

[Maddy Pelling]

Now, something that I always find so fascinating because it's so intimate and it's quite tender in a way. Is that as the executioner, am I right in thinking you might be responsible for tying up or pulling out of the way the prisoner's hair?

[Anthony Delaney]

And sometimes they would try to deny the executioner that thing of politeness and they would have it done already, or they'd have the hair cut. Women particularly, obviously, but not just. Cause in this time period, you know.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think about the French Revolution when there became a fashion to have that kind of pixie cut, which was copying the women, the aristocratic women who were going to the guillotine. And you see that in like depictions of Marie Antoinette in that period.

[Anthony Delaney]

But if they weren't done, or if they weren't cut, or if they weren't already up the hair, I mean, then, yes, the executioner would have to pin up your hair or whatever, I suppose as well.

[Maddy Pelling]

In the Tudor period, again, for particularly for women, hair is so important and meaningful. How you present yourself to the world is tied into your hair, what you're putting on your head, how your hair is dressed, whether it's down, whether it's up. And to have this executioner, someone from the periphery of society and considered quite lowly to touch your hair, especially if you're someone like Amberlynn going to the scaffold.

[Anthony Delaney]

A literal queen.

[Maddy Pelling]

A literal queen. A literal queen. You do not want that person touching your hair. It's powerful. It's power for you to keep that away from them.

[Anthony Delaney]

Exactly, exactly that. It's still taking ownership over the end of your life. If you're able to keep it away by keeping your dignity. Absolutely. You talk about interaction. Okay, so we may have the hair interaction between the executioner and the condemned. If not, what you will have is a formalized asking for forgiveness from the executioner to the condemned. So the executioner will say, I have to take your life. Can you forgive me for it? They will be expected to accept, by the way. So it's interesting, this exchange that is being expected from people who are unscuffled.

[Maddy Pelling]

How often people didn't give their forgiveness, didn't give their permission.

[Anthony Delaney]

I wonder if they blamed the executioner. It often feels to me like people really don't blame the executioner. They understand that it's the state that's doing this rather than the individual.

[Maddy Pelling]

Which speaks so much to the Tudor mindset. Right. Because you would think getting up on the scaffold, your body would just be flooded with fight or flight, and you would want to run away from this person who is going to do you harm. But actually the power of the context in which this is happening and that belief in that moment of again, the choreography of it all, the performance of it all, that it it's a state ceremony. Maybe that's slightly override. I'm not saying everyone walked their death very calmly.

[Anthony Delaney]

Delighted.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, this is just what happened. Of course you'd be, you know, shaking, people would wet themselves, all of that. But it's so interesting because you'd think faced with the person who's gonna take your life in that moment, they'd be the person you need to escape and that you feel visceral animosity towards. But that's not necessarily, at least in terms of the performance of this, that's not what's happening.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone, Ed Helms here and hi.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Earsaf, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Anthony Delaney]

You know what?

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[Anthony Delaney]

Let'S go through those motions. So we've done the. They're on the scaffold, they've tied the hair back, they've received the last rites, the executioners asked for forgiveness. Then the action itself, which is probably the quickest of all that well, all going well is one of the quickest parts of the whole thing. Then we are lifting the head off. Behold, the head of a traitor. And that's the kind of again, ceremonial thing. Like it's performance. It's performance for whoever is there, like whether it be a big or a small crowd.

[Maddy Pelling]

And it's that providing evidence, isn't it? This is proof of this. State endorsed state ordered execution has taken place. Here is the evidence for everyone present. So you are all witnesses to it. And there's that. I suppose there's a kind of shift there. On pre death the relationship on the scaffold is between the executioner and the prisoner and post death it's between the executioner and the witnesses.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, absolutely. That happened in the case of Mary Queen of Scots, for instance, with the whole behold the head of a traitor. Which says an awful lot about what Elizabeth needs from that. Despite the fact that what she will deny or feign that she didn't know or did know whatever. But that's part of that ceremony, that state sanctioned ceremony. And who else is sanctioning those ceremonies but the queen or the king? Or in this case it happens to be the queen. But you talked about the relationships with the audience. Thereafter the condemned is executed. Part of that could be manipulating or controlling the crowd in order that they don't swipe the clothing. Again, Mary Queen of Scots is a good example. So it's going do not let them take her clothing so that they become relics, saintly relics. Okay, so it's giving access to bodies and even if someone's.

[Maddy Pelling]

And controlling the narrative.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, absolutely. Because it's pointless if they can't control the narrative. That's the whole point. Of executing somebody, particularly Mary Queen of Scots. Case control, that narrative, and then it becomes about working with the families potentially of the condemned to go bury the body as quickly as possible or to, as I say, take the clothes in, you know, a different case that's not Mary Queen of Scots. To give the family the clothing before other people take the clothing or to, well, sell the clothing back to the family is more realistic. And then assisting in the swift burial, or depending on who it is, remove the head in Tudor times, specifically remove the head to be displayed on London Bridge. So again, display, ceremony, control, and proof and proof. So it's.

[Maddy Pelling]

And warning.

[Anthony Delaney]

This is a really, really pivotal role that can so easily be overlooked in a kind of a comic book type of way. But this is state mechanism, and it's somebody from the working classes, marginalized groups who are oiling these wheels in order to show how the state functions and.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do the dirty work of the state. Okay, so tell me this. The executions I have in my mind are wearing all black with a sort of balaclava hood situation. Is this accurate?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no, they're just wearing the normal.

[Maddy Pelling]

Clothes my PhD has taken off me.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, they're literally just wearing their normal clothes. And it says something about like, because that's costume, so you could imagine that they would be in something like that. But actually they just, just blend from normal society into this role and then back into normal society because they're just in their.

[Maddy Pelling]

And I suppose the thing about that, the wardrobe that we imagine is that they're anonymizing themselves. But actually, you know, you've said that people knew like the address of working executioners at the time, and they were already marginalized, so they didn't need to hide in that way.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I think people knew who executioners were. It wasn't anonymous, you know, so there definitely is. And then that becomes more problematic when things go wrong, especially if it's a good segue, if it's a prominent person such as. You may have heard of this one before, it's certainly one that we come across every now and again. And that is Margaret Pole in 1541.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, this one doesn't go particularly well. Tell me, who is she? Just give me the brief overview.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, she's born in 1473. She is executed at the age of 67. It's Henry VIII.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, that's so petty, Henry. Like, this is the Tudor period. She's close to death. Leave her alone.

[Anthony Delaney]

We're not entirely even sure that the reasons he gives for executing her are not Fabricated, courtly fabrications. So it is, you know, she's really well connected. She's the niece of Edward iv, Richard iii, she's a cousin to the princes in the Tower and she's even related to Henry VIII himself. And she has a strong claim to the throne. So she's a threat to his power in that sense, but she has no interest in the throne. He's just being a paranoid Mary, as per bloody usual. And so he goes for her and he, you know, by the 1540s, he's extremely paranoid, as we know, and he charges her, he makes sure that she is executed. There is no trial. Classic Henry VIII. It starts at 7am, then. So she's at the Tower, she's in Tower Green in the presence of the Lord Mayor of London and about 150 others.

[Maddy Pelling]

So in the wall, we have a significant crowd within.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, but this is one of the things. Right. Even though we're not outside the walls, there's still a crowd, like we were saying.

[Maddy Pelling]

And this is a not insignificant person being executed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Exactly. So that's going to draw even more. Right. So it was a case that the executioner that was supposed to be doing the job wasn't available because he was up in the north of England doing more executing up there. And so they just.

[Maddy Pelling]

I hate, as a freelancer, when you get double booked for things.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do you not put a dep in?

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, there was a dep, but not an officially assigned one. And he was basically described as a youth.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, dear.

[Anthony Delaney]

And. And so this is what Eustace Chapuy says. He says, who is the Imperial Ambassador to England. And Eustace Chapuy has left us with a lot of Tudor documentation. And he says, since the ordinary executioner of justice was absent doing his work in the north. Oh, there you go. That's where I read that a wretched and blundering youth. Blundering was chosen, who literally hacked her head and shoulders to pieces in the most pitiful manner.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, Margaret. Oh, my God.

[Anthony Delaney]

So there you go, you hear things that she was refusing to put her neck on this, so she had to be forced down or there was a chase around the executioner's block. That didn't happen. That's just a kind of a fable that comes up afterwards.

[Maddy Pelling]

But clearly she resisted the thing that was coming to her.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. In some capacity.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm not blaming Mark.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no, no, no, no, no. So, you know, that is one of those Targreen executions that went down in infamy. We, you know, definitely, as historians we know this.

[Maddy Pelling]

And I mean, that is embarrassing for Henry VIII as well. Right. Because executioners are there to perform state justice. It's ceremonial. It's meant to be dignified on both sides. Even though it's a brutal, brutal thing. It's meant to be done with precision.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. There are rules.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. It doesn't reflect well on the state and on Henry if it's chaos. Yeah. Crikey. Okay. That's intense. I guess we can't talk about executions in this period without talking about Anne bloody Boleyn. Oh, God. Famously, she's executed with a sword. And a special sword swordsman is brought in. Tell me more about this. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So this is the famous guy from Calais. We don't know his name. And actually, when we were doing. We were talking about doing this research, I was like, surely his name is available to us. No, but. No, it's not. I didn't. I didn't.

[Maddy Pelling]

I just again, tells you so much about the status of executioners.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, and especially one that they're importing from France. You know what I mean? They might know the one that's living on Royal Mint Lane, but they're not gonna know the one that's coming from Calais.

[Maddy Pelling]

Why is he imported from France? Because presumably there are lots of executioners in England who could do this for the Queen.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And I mean, there's loads of theories, isn't there, about going, oh, well, she was a queen, so she deserved a special executioner. So he came, but we don't actually know. But one of the things that's so easy to forget when it comes to this. And again, this is a fact that you may or may not know, but that Henry had him in England before the execution. So it was like he's queuing this.

[Maddy Pelling]

Up to not exactly a fair trial for Anne, then.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, no. I mean, this. Already decided this was happening, wasn't it? And that's just it. Some of the details around her execution are interesting. So there is. Apparently the neck doesn't touch the block in this case. She is whispering her prayers. The executioner has hidden the sword from her so she doesn't have to look on the instrument of death.

[Maddy Pelling]

Again, because she's a queen. Right. Like, it's a lot of. It's more dignified, calm way to go. I still don't fancy it.

[Anthony Delaney]

No. And that she is kneeling upright at the time of decapitation, and that at that time, because she's whispering her prayers after decapitation, her lips are still moving for, you know, nanoseconds or whatever in prayer. Listen, it's one of those things.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, they probably would have.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's not impossible, but says me as if I'm that kind of a doctor. But, you know, it certainly adds to the lore of Ann's demise, if nothing else. So it's.

[Maddy Pelling]

And also to the lore of the sword itself. Right. Because a lot of these swords were kind of mythologized in certain ways. Like, I know lots of them had, like, mottos engraved on them and stuff.

[Anthony Delaney]

They did. And another thing which is fascinating is the executioners, again, as another way to make money, would sometimes clip part of their swords, and they would sell parts of that clipping to people going, this is the sword that executes whoever you want.

[Maddy Pelling]

Executioner who's clipped so much of his sword that there's not enough to actually do the job.

[Anthony Delaney]

I did think that myself. Like, how far down are you going? Because they often weren't pointed swords.

[Maddy Pelling]

Because there's no need for the point.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's no need for the point. They'd just be flat on top. Yeah. So they need to be sharper than the sides.

[Maddy Pelling]

But that is the other way around to. I have a sword in my hand warehouse. With Matt. Being in the army, when you go to Sandhurst, you have to buy your own sword, which costs a lot of money. It's a bit ridiculous. Yeah, but they're cavalry swords, so they have a sharp point for stabbing on horse. Matt, it's not on the cavalry. He's never been on a horse before, so he would be useless in this scenario. But it's completely blunt down the edge.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is it sharp enough that, like, it could do. Is it real or is it, like, costume sword now?

[Maddy Pelling]

No, it's like, ceremonial now. Like, you could probably, I don't know, pierce a loaf of bread with it or something like that.

[Anthony Delaney]

But it's not gonna be doing too much.

[Maddy Pelling]

You're not gonna be like killing a burglar with it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, God.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

But again, famously, as we know with Anne Boleyn, the disarray that's around her death, there is no coffin for her body to be placed in, so it's placed in an arrow chest.

[Maddy Pelling]

That is always amazing to me. It's wild.

[Anthony Delaney]

She's then put in an unmarked grave in the Chapel of St. Peter and Vincula. So we know this about her death. It's possibly the most famous execution in English history. Is it? I'm probably forgetting something. Even more, I would say.

[Maddy Pelling]

Charles.

[Anthony Delaney]

I. Oh, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Maybe more so.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Ever heard of him?

[Anthony Delaney]

I wonder though, I mean, for me, yes, I agree with you. But actually I wonder if in the popular imagination for me it would be that as well.

[Maddy Pelling]

But maybe Lady Jane Grey, which we haven't spoken about potentially in terms of like the tragedy element of that, the sort of poeticness of a young woman going to her death a little bit like Anne. Side note, our lovely researcher Phoebe Joyce was married in the chapel at the Tower of London where she works.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's kind of amazing. Imagine getting married where Anne Boleyn was buried.

[Maddy Pelling]

Pretty incredible proximity to history.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Who was the last Tudor to be executed at the Tower of London?

[Anthony Delaney]

It was Robert Devereaux, 2nd Earl of Essex. This is during Elizabeth I's reign. It's a great name.

[Maddy Pelling]

Devereux.

[Anthony Delaney]

Devereux. Yeah, I know somebody called Devereux. It must be a Norman name. But it is one of Elizabeth's former favorites who led the failed Essex rebellion, of course, in 1601. And this is also why it's the last Tudor rebellion, because we're going to the end of the Tudor era, so there's not much more time left to go. You can hear more about the whole dark side of Elizabeth I. And there are plenty in our episode with Tracy Borman so you can go back through other episodes and listen to that. But he was the last Tudor executed.

[Maddy Pelling]

And we do know who the executioner was. We do have a name for this one.

[Anthony Delaney]

We have a name and it's rare that we have these names, although we've. We've had a couple, I suppose. But Thomas Derek was the man who executed Robert Devereaux. And one of the reasons that we know about him is because Derek was created an executioner. By whom?

[Maddy Pelling]

Not Devereaux.

[Anthony Delaney]

Devereaux himself. Yes. He was one of those people that we've talked about where he was a criminal. He was arrested with 23 other people and he was offered the chance to execute the other 23. And if he did, he would live. And so Derek obviously jumped at this opportunity and he hanged them on the ship's spars at the time. So, like, it didn't even. We're not coming home, we're not going to the Tower of London. We're enacting justice there and then. And he went on to become a Tyburn hangman, and it's him that's credited with making hangings more efficient. So he. He is one of these people who thrives in these roles and it becomes to be. Derek becomes a synonym for being hanged here.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my gosh.

[Anthony Delaney]

So he really rises to the old occasion and he's.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, he's a pretty grim individual. The crime that he's guilty of during the Battle of Cadiz, which is when he is with the others who is.

[Anthony Delaney]

Executed, he's guilty of rape with the 20 odd others.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, Jesus.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, they're all guilty of rape.

[Maddy Pelling]

They're all guilty of rape. Lovely. And to then turn on his fellow soldiers in that way, that's pretty extraordinary. Pretty grim.

[Anthony Delaney]

No wonder he excelled, I suppose, at this kind of a grim so to be.

[Maddy Pelling]

Derek became a saying. Wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

So he was so good at it. That was it. Do you want to know when the final beheading happened at the Tower of London? Beheading. Now, this is not execution.

[Maddy Pelling]

Beheading. Final beheading. Because we know the final execution is in the 1941. Yeah, final beheading. It's gotta be the 18th century.

[Anthony Delaney]

It is the 18th century.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's on the ninth best century.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's on the 9th of April, 1747.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's Jacobite.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, it is Jacobite. Yes, yes, yes. So it's Simon Fraser, the 11th Lord Lovett.

[Maddy Pelling]

Ah, yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Executed for his part in the Jacobite rising. And he was 80 years old. They love killing old people.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know what he is, nonetheless. And that block is still on display at the Tower of London today. That's grim, isn't it?

[Maddy Pelling]

That is fascinating. Recently I was talking to someone about the guillotine blade. That is one of three that was in use during the French Revolution and is currently on display at the V and A as part of their Marianne Twinning exhibition.

[Anthony Delaney]

I need to go. Yeah. Have you meant that?

[Maddy Pelling]

I've not been yet, no. But the exhibition catalogue is very good, by the way. But there's something so brutally visceral about that kind of object.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I agree totally.

[Maddy Pelling]

It makes history feel proximate, but also just incredibly dark and human and scary.

[Anthony Delaney]

And what those instruments and objects take on when they are in that proximate location to death. Like the literal division between life and death is in that material culture that's bizarre.

[Maddy Pelling]

Not just life and death, but life and death of people who are the movers and shakers of history.

[Anthony Delaney]

You know, we're talking about Tudor executions in this episode, but executions and their different time periods as well. So we should look at that as well. Like how they change over the centuries and how execution change. We should look at the whole history of execution over an episode or two, I think, because they really are different by the time we get into the 20th century. It's crazy to even say that. And you know, in certain places today there is still the death penalty. So it is quite a macabre thing, especially when it's state sanctioned. Like the state sanctioning of taking lives is an interesting.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's a difficult and interesting history, isn't it? And as we said at the beginning, you can go back and hear episodes about some of the executions we've covered. We've done the final days of Mary Queen of Scots, the final days of Anne Boleyn and. And we did that episode on Albert Pierrepoint, the 20th century executioner. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you very much for this history.

[Anthony Delaney]

Thank you for being here.

[Maddy Pelling]

Thank you for partaking in this history. If you want to hear more about executions in the past, then you can get in touch with [e-mail] and don't forget to leave us a five star review wherever you get.

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