← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
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- [00:00]
Anthony Delaney
Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling. And if you would like After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal, ad free and get early access.
- [00:10]
Maddy Pelling
Sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every week.
- [00:21]
Anthony Delaney
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:27]
Matt Lewis
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- [00:58]
Narrator
You've probably heard of Joan of Arc.
- [01:01]
Maddy Pelling
You may even have a picture in your head.
- [01:03]
Narrator
A young beautiful woman with cropped hair and a suit of armor. She's the young peasant girl who led an army into battle, who heard voices, whose fate would be sealed in flames at just 19 years old, right? Or is she Joan the Saint, revered as a symbol of divine purity, courage and unwavering faith? Over the centuries, Joan has become many.
- [01:34]
Maddy Pelling
Things to many people.
- [01:35]
Narrator
For some, she's a fearless warrior, a symbol of defiance against the odds. For others, she's a martyr, a beacon of sacrifice. A young woman whose life was extinguished too soon. She's been reimagined, reshaped and reinvented across time. And therein lies the problem. Audiences watched her strutting across the 18th century operatic stage and she's been portrayed.
- [02:03]
Maddy Pelling
In at least 45 films. For the Victorians, she was cloaked in a veil of modesty and virtue, a symbol of womanly purity and national pride.
- [02:15]
Narrator
In the 20th century, she became a rebel, evoked on the catwalk by no less than Dior, Balenciaga, versace and Alexander McQueen, and embodied by everyone from Kate Bush to, more recently, Chapel Rowan.
- [02:29]
Maddy Pelling
A symbol of female power, even gender.
- [02:32]
Narrator
Defying, cross dressing resistance. But beneath all these interpretations, beneath the legend, lies a woman. A woman who for most of her.
- [02:44]
Maddy Pelling
Short life was a child existing in.
- [02:46]
Narrator
The messy, complicated world of 15th century France. A woman whose real life was far more complex and far more human than the myth that surrounds her. This is after dark and these are the final days of Joan of Arc.
- [03:32]
Anthony Delaney
Balenciaga. My name is Anthony.
- [03:37]
Maddy Pelling
Oh, and I'm Madd, apparently.
- [03:39]
Anthony Delaney
And this is the final days of Joan of Arc. We are talking about Joan, her history, her personhood over the next two episodes. And this is going to. As Maddy was telling us, there this is going to be trying to reach behind some of those myths and legends that we've built up around Joan and talk about the real person, or as near as we can get to the real person and the person who is informed by history as opposed to myth. Now, before we get started, Maddy, I want to know what is the version of Joan and what has informed the version of Joan that you have? Please and thank you.
- [04:15]
Maddy Pelling
I mean, I think the recent portrayal of Joan of Arc by Chapel roan at the VMAs is something that's kind of sticking in my mind, you know, that she's a kind of gender ambiguous, cool girl, someone who is in a suit of armor. But I suppose also I have a Victorian version of her in my head. You know, all the 19th century paintings of her that you get by all kinds of European artists. When I was little, I had a friend whose dad was an antiques dealer and collector, and he was obsessed with Joan of Arc. His whole house was full of Joan of Arc, statues, sculptures, artworks, bizarre. And so I spent a lot of time as a kid, like around this very heavy, Victorian, quite gothic version of her. And it's always kind of stuck in my mind that she's this sort of enigmatic, interesting that I don't really know a lot about in terms of the actual history, but certainly I have that kind of Victorian version of her in my head. Is that the same for you, or do you have a sort of different relationship with her?
- [05:16]
Anthony Delaney
I have a very intimate relationship with Jeanne d'arc. First of all, her name isn't Joan Dark.
- [05:22]
Maddy Pelling
Come on. Can I just say to listeners that before we came on air, Anthony was telling me that he has a degree in French, which I didn't know.
- [05:29]
Anthony Delaney
No, I have a minor degree in French. Basically, I did it for the first year of my degree and then dropped it because I was not very good at it.
- [05:35]
Maddy Pelling
Well, you're gonna be better than. And I did French till gcse. And my teacher, shout out to my teacher, who I won't name, was absolutely vile. And she filled me with such anxiety about speaking French. So this episode is bringing up a lot of trauma to me. I am so sorry to all our French listeners who are going to hear me completely butcher all of this, and I will try my best.
- [05:59]
Anthony Delaney
Think of teenage Maddie crying at the back of her French class as she butchers your beautiful language. No, my. My. Joan of Arc is informed by the 1999 war action film the messenger, the story of Joan of Arc. And as a mere Garsoon, I would watch that film repeatedly.
- [06:20]
Maddy Pelling
Like, I watched that a lot.
- [06:23]
Anthony Delaney
And I just really, you know, us gay men love a powerful woman. And I was like, go, Joan. You do what you need to do. And you. You show all those men. So that's my. That's my Joan. It's actually Victorian thing at all. It's quite medieval, but, like, obviously, you know, 20th century medieval, cinematic medieval. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's quite. It's the armor. Yes. It's the cropped hair. It's patriarchal dismantlement. So, yeah, that's my Joan. And when I went to Notre Dame, because I was so bad at French, I spent the summer after my first year in university in Paris. And the first stop that I made was to the. The statue of Jeanne d'arc at Notre Dame. So it was like, I love how.
- [07:07]
Maddy Pelling
You'Re like, I was bad at French. So the punishment was to go to Paris. Okay, so we've talked about the version of Joan that everyone knows. Let's now get into the actual history. So we're in 15th century France, and this is a moment in French history of war, of fear, of uncertainty, of political turmoil. The lives of everyone, from the royals down to the peasant in the field, they're all being affected by what's going on. The Hundred Years War is the big kind of contextual point here. It's been running from 1337, and it runs until 1453. And it's a conflict that's been raging between England and France, and it's basically an argument over who should rule the French throne. So that is the backdrop. Stay with me, because there's some complicated history here. In 1420, the Treaty of Troy. Troyes. Pronunciation question.
- [08:01]
Anthony Delaney
No, no, you were right the first time.
- [08:03]
Maddy Pelling
Good, good. This treaty is signed, and it's signed by King Charles VI of France. He is, interestingly known as Charles the Mad. He has mental illness and he disinherits his son, the Dauphin, in favour of the English king, Henry V of Shakespeare fame. So Henry V is married to King Charles's daughter, Catherine of Valois, and that marriage creates an English claim to the throne. So you've got Charles VI disinheriting his own son, who is going to become Charles vii, and legitimising Henry's wife, who is the daughter of the King of France. In 1422, Charles VI dies, and also in the same year, Henry V dies, which is pretty catastrophic. But Henry V, fear not, has a child. Henry vi. Imaginative. I know. And he is declared very boldly, the King of England and also of France. Okay, so you've got that sort of complicated international situation going on, but then within France itself, you have these two warring sides. You've got the almanacs on the one hand, who are loyal to the Dauphin, the disinherited son of Charles. And this is Charles vii, now the dauphin. And then you've got the Burgundians, who are allied to the English, and they hold a lot of what is now northern France. So you've got these territories being played out, violence, as those boundaries are shifting in what is essentially a civil war. A civil war that runs from roughly 1407 to 1435. So this really is a time of great uncertainty and danger. And this, as I say, kind of filters down to the lives of the ordinary people. So as these different factions push and pull across the landscape, these ordinary villages, ordinary towns are attacked, are pillaged. There's famine at the same time, as there always seems to be in the medieval world. Whenever anything goes wrong politically, it's just throw in a good famine there so you can all starve to death as well. And we have our old friend back again, the Black Death. So all in all, not a great time to be a French peasant, which is how we come to the story of Joan. So do you know anything about Joan's origin story, Anthony? We know potentially how it's going to end, but do you know anything about her beginnings?
- [10:22]
Anthony Delaney
Not really. Actually, now that you're saying, I mean, I know about the Domremy thing and I know that she's born as a peasant and. But that's about it.
- [10:31]
Maddy Pelling
Okay, I will give you some backstory here. So Jeanne d'arc, as we should call her, is born in 1412 in, as you say, the village of Domremy, which is in the north eastern part of France. And the village that she's born into is essentially on the frontier, the front lines between the Armanac and the Burgundian lands. So she grows up witnessing these warring factions, the raids that they enact on each other, and the destruction that is led from that. Important as well, for her backstory is that she is raised as a devout Catholic. So her daily life is taken up with praying, with attending Mass, and she's particularly drawn. And I think this is interesting. You know, anyone who's had any contact with the Catholic Church will know that the Virgin Mary is this fairly central important figure. Oh, Anthony has literally, for those listening at home, grabbed. Why was this an arm's reach issue with you at all times? He's Grabbed, I would say a statue, probably the length of your forearm, of the Virgin Mary. And of course, she's bright green.
- [11:37]
Anthony Delaney
Only to prove your point, though. I am listening. I'm not getting totally distracted. You're absolutely right. Like, if you're raised a Catholic, like, I am in no way religious and definitely not Catholic now. But icon, legend, the moment the Virgin Mary will forever be iconic amongst my material culture.
- [11:55]
Maddy Pelling
I mean, sure, as you say, she's the moment, she's iconic. Great. And Joan felt similarly. Not only is Joan religiously devout, not only does she feel that she has this intimate connection with the Virgin Mary in particular, but she's wrapped up in this conversation around religious visions and religious prophecies that is happening in this moment in 15th century France and that specifically relate to her life. And this is so fascinating because this is one thing that I love doing on this show in particular, that we deal with so many histories where you have to suspend your disbelief, I suppose, from a modern perspective and access, or try and access the mindsets, the belief systems of people in the past. And I think this is one of those stories. So while Joan is growing up in Domremy, there's another lady called Marie of Avignon. She is a French mystic at the time when Joan is growing up and she receives a vision that a woman, and importantly, a virgin woman, will come.
- [12:58]
Narrator
Forth to save France, to unite them.
- [13:00]
Maddy Pelling
In this moment of civil war. And there's another prophecy as well, which in my notes, I have here that it's attributed to Merlin, that sure fire, legitimate historical figure that also states that a virgin carrying a banner will put an end to France's suffering. So there's a kind of existent law that there is a woman, a young woman, who is going to come and save France. And I'd be kind of interested to know to what extent that is written into French culture in this moment. Is that something that Joan hears growing up? I would bet that she does. Right?
- [13:33]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah.
- [13:33]
Maddy Pelling
When she's age 12, in 1424, she starts to hear voices, and not only voices, but the voices of specific religious figures. So she claims that she hears the voice of St. Michael, who is an archangel, also the voice of St. Catherine of Alexandria, who I don't know anything about, and also the voice of St. Margaret of Antioch. Interestingly, both those saints there, those women saints, are virgins who specifically stood up to Roman persecution and were martyred for it. So there's a sense that she is looking to identify with, yes, the Virgin Mary, but also these two women who stand up against power and are specifically martyred. So that's part of her upbringing, it's part of her culture. And she's saying that she's hearing these voices. She believes that she has this connection. Interestingly, she makes a vow of virginity to them. And I think this is so interesting because there's so much in Joan's story about her cross dressing, her appearing as a man at various moments, but also about her embodied experiences as a woman and the power that virginity could give you in the past. And, you know, we often talk about the value that's placed on it in terms of a patriarchal structure and that it's obviously complete nonsense, and it's there as a concept to oppress women and to reduce their value to their bodies and to therefore their relationship with the men in their lives. But I think what's interesting here is that in a religious context, Joan sees it as a powerful tool. And I'm not necessarily advocating for that. I just think it's fascinating that to her it is a weapon. It's something to push back against the power structures and that it's a sort of secret thing between her and these female religious figures that she's hearing speak.
- [15:25]
Anthony Delaney
To her, you know, and it's interesting because if you push forward, what you find is for men in France particularly, celibacy or virginity for an adult male is very frowned upon, unless in religious orders. But like anything outside religious orders, then it's very suspect. It's very potentially upending. It's the butt of jokes. It's. It's. It's a very unstabilizing thing. So. And it remains the case that for women, virginity and celibacy is a celebrated thing. So there is power to be had for women in that. And I do. That was one of the things that I remember actually from the film. There was talking about films now as if they're historical documents, but that what you're kind of intimating there, which is women looking for avenues of power, authority and influence. And Joan identifies virginity or celibacy as one of those avenues. Now, that's not to take away, as you're kind of saying as well, from the actual religious devotion that she certainly without doubt had around that decision. But there is also influence and there is also power to be had that she can claim if she's willing to safeguard that virginity as much as she possibly can.
- [16:35]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, it's a really interesting point. She keeps this secret, though, you know, the visions and the hearing of these voices. But by 1428, she really can't stay silent any longer, she feels that she has to go out into the world and tell people about what she sees as her gifts. You know, from a modern perspective, we might think, oh, you're hearing voices, that's, you know, maybe not brilliant and you might need to seek some medical attention, but that's not the case. She really sees this as something that's going to save not only her and her village, but France as a whole. So she sets out to tell people about this, and as you can imagine, it's going to be met with a fair level of scepticism. In 1428, in this moment, she's now 16 and she decides to leave her village, to leave the region that she's grown up in, the place that she's known. And I think again, that speaks to the absolute power of these visions, these hallucinations that she's having, whatever you want to call them, that she believes in them so much that they force her, they compel her to leave the safety and familiarity of her home. And she heads to Vaucouleurs, which is a stronghold of the Dauphin supporters, so Charles VII supporters. And she arrives here and she just walks in and demands an audience with the local commander and says, hi, I have been sent by God to help the Dauphin. I'm hearing all these voices. You've been having a hard time in the civil war. It's okay, guys, I am here now. Little 16 year old virgin, me, hearing my voices. So initially, as you might expect, she's dismissed as essentially a mad peasant, you know, someone who is obviously a child. She doesn't know anything about the world. Badly educated. What would she know about politics? What would she know about God? They're like, no, no, thank you, 16 year old Joan, we don't need your help in this. It's fine. But she persists. She keeps coming back and she's like, no, no, no. God is speaking to me truly, like, you need to listen. And rumors start to spread within the court of the Dauphin's supporters and the wider community. And people start to talk about this girl who's having divine visions. And the interest in her grows. And by January of the following year, she just stays here, by the way. And she's like, I'm just gonna knock around until somebody believes me. And by January of the next year, the local commander, he actually changes his mind and he is convinced by her, which is fascinating to me. As far as I'm aware, we don't have much about what changes his mind in that moment. And that's a really interesting sort of turning point, I suppose, in her story that this man in charge of this stronghold, in charge of the Dauphin's troops and allies, legitimizes her and says, you know what? Yeah, like, okay, let's give you a go. So she's given a few men at arms, she's given a horse and a small escort, and importantly, she's given men's clothing. The suggestion is, at this point, it is for her protection because she is about to go on the road to see Charles vii, the Dauphin, the man that his supporters, including Joan, believe is the legitimate heir to the Kingdom of France. And Joan thinks, I am going to help make this guy king. So she sets out on the road to Chinon, which is where Charles VII is residing in this moment. And this is a really dangerous journey. It's 120 miles, which is an 11 day ride. Nobody wants that. And it's a rise through predominantly enemy territory. Okay, this is really serious. It's also freezing cold. We're in January. It's winter weather in France, in the north of France. And if she's captured, she'll obviously be in great danger of execution, but also other forms of threat. So this is a really scary moment. But she does this because she believes she is on the right path. She has divine protection. She's legitimized by God and now by this local commander who sent her to the king. And she is about to arrive in the King's court and she's going to have to convince him that she is sent by God.
- [20:39]
Marc Maron
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- [21:29]
Anthony Delaney
So we've talked about these kind of unbalanced societal meetings where monarchy meets thinking of witchcraft trials with James VI. And first I'm thinking of Elizabeth I and Grace O'Malley, the pirate queen. And so we, we have this kind of imbalance. So this is one of those. Maddy, tell us what happens when the monarch and the mystic come face to face.
- [21:53]
Maddy Pelling
So when Joan goes to see The King Anthony you talked there about, you know, this is such a power imbalance. On the one hand, this is such an incredible moment that we see played out in various moments of history. And I loved your reference to the Berwick witch trials. Then when we get King James of Scotland meeting one of the women accused of being a witch and the absolute sort of juxtaposition of that is so fascinating. And that's what we get here with Joan and the king. And you've got to remember as well that Joan is going to the King as someone claiming divine power, divine connection, that she has this direct line to God. And of course, the King is the only person who really is understood to have that. This is an incredibly risky moment then, where Joan could be laughed out of court, but not only that, she could be accused of heresy by the King. If the King decides, no, no, no, I know what royal power looks like, what divine power looks like, and that ain't it, she is going to be in big trouble.
- [22:55]
Narrator
A light spring breeze lifts the flags that fly above the towering Chateau de Chinon as Joan of Arc, tired from an 11 day journey, approaches, approaches the fortress where the dauphin Charles VII sits. She cuts a unique and curious figure.
- [23:13]
Maddy Pelling
As she steps off her horse, a.
- [23:15]
Narrator
Peasant girl in men's clothing, and is taken inside, led through the winding stone corridors, footsteps echoing off ancient stones. How must she have felt? Determined, perhaps knowing that not just France's destiny, destiny, but her own too, were at stake. Entering the great hall, the heads of courtiers turn to Joan. A stunned silence meets the room as a way to test the girl's heavenly guidance. Charles VII has disguised himself among his courtiers, blending into the crowd. But to the astonishment of all present, Joan approaches him without hesitation, bowing before him and declaring, God give you a happy life, sweet king.
- [24:07]
Maddy Pelling
The tests don't end there, however, with.
- [24:10]
Narrator
Church theologians in Poitiers rigorously questioning and examining Joan over the next three weeks, interrogating her visions and divine messages. The result, though, is a resounding affirmation of Joan's powers. And in that electric moment, this small but powerful girl is given permission and authority to lead French forces and change the course of history.
- [24:44]
Anthony Delaney
Okay, one of the things that really dawned on me there when you were giving that second narrative was Joan's story, and I use that word purposely, comes to us mostly from other people that are not Joan. We have records of her words, but through other people, because I'm imagining she's illiterate. So this also reeks of fashioning and fashioning this Idea that she. Because she is guided by God and because God is on this side of history, by the way, they're letting us know that God has sent Joan of Arc to the Dauphin in order for him to reclaim his. His appointed throne. Because, as we know, God dictates who sits on those thrones. The narrative purpose that Joan is fulfilling here is not necessarily Joan driven, it's very much faction driven. And. And that's really clear, I think, from that look, she was able to find him amongst this group of people for, like, there's no way she would have been able to do that. There's just no way. She would never have been able to know. Unless he was wearing the fleur de lis and the crown and all of that kind. He wasn't, apparently. So it is this kind of almost biblical thing she's coming with.
- [25:54]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, I agree. I think I was going to say game recognises game. What I mean is, like, she is supposedly imbued with the power of God and so is the king, and that's what draws her. You know, it's God guiding her hand, saying, that's the king over there with the brown hair and the big nose. I don't know what Charles thought. Like, you're right, there's no way that she would have known. She's never met the king, she's never seen him before. She's grown up in a tiny rural village. But the fact that she is drawn to him, that she knows who he is, immediately gives her that legitimacy. And, yeah, it feels very much, as you say, it's a story, it's a turning point in this tale, not necessarily an accurate history. I think that's really, really interesting. There are lots of depictions of this moment, of their meeting, and a lot of them actually interestingly produced just after her lifetime, in the. Literally just a decade or so after she had died. And I have one of them in front of us, which is from a French manuscript produced in 1493. And I want you to describe it, Anthony, because I think it's a really. It's a really interesting. I mean, it's a kind of typical medieval scene in a lot of ways, but I think it's really interesting in terms of the depiction of Joan and the king.
- [27:05]
Anthony Delaney
Well, first of all, lies. Lies. Liza Minnelli. This is full of lies. And you can tell it is. And it's propaganda and it's great for that. I mean, it's a really successful piece of propaganda, if that's what you're looking at. So we have Joan at the center of. But as Maddie has already described, by now, Joan had been given male attire. But in this depiction, she's absolutely not. She couldn't be more feminine. Her hair is flowing very long. She's in very much a courtly dress, actually. Not something that she would have had access to necessarily. I will say, for what it's worth, her index finger on her right hand is supernaturally long and it's absolutely freaking me out. But she's there.
- [27:43]
Maddy Pelling
It's big. It's big.
- [27:44]
Anthony Delaney
She's there in the middle of the whole thing. The dauphin's sitting on a throne which looks basically like a carpet that's been put in a wall or something. He's there in his fleur de lis, he has his crown on, he's holding the scepter. So these are the indicators of his power. It's very clear to us that he's the king. Obviously, these two stories, the story that's being told in this picture doesn't necessarily match up with the narrative story that you just told us, which was, she found him by this. It just looks like she's arrived and the dauphin is sitting on a throne, so why wouldn't she be able to recognize him? In the background to the right of the picture, we have the army waiting outside that she's apparently come with. And then the courtiers are in the far left hand, and then in the back left, the courtiers are there, and they're obviously on the king's side of things, and they're looking at her with whimsy and curiosity. But it's very sanitized. It's very. It looks like a fairy tale, actually, is what it looks like. You see the kind of bucolic hills, fields, paths, trees in the background. It's lies, but it's interesting nonetheless.
- [28:40]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And I think, again, it speaks to this being such a crucial moment in her story. You know, this is a moment that's going to be depicted again and again. This is the moment when Joan is legitimized by, according to the supporters of the dauphin, the highest divine authority in the land, the king, or at least the man who aspires to be the king of France and to unite it. And the fact that she's portrayed in this very feminine way, this hyper feminine way, like you say. She has this long golden hair and these very sort of dainty wrists and this courtly dress. It's really fascinating because the version that we have of her later on is of this person dressed in armour, albeit armour that you Know, when you look at the Victorian depictions of her, it always really annoys me that the armor is like, made for her female body and she's got like a tiny cinched in waist. And, you know, it's very much like, not, I assume, not what the armor of the 15th century would look like in France if you were to literally just don the same armor that men were wearing at that time. And so her hyper femininity is always there in terms of her depiction. But it's interesting that the cross dressing aspect is removed in these contemporary or contemporary ish depictions of her. So we know that she goes to the king and the king's like, okay, you knew who I was from this crowd of people. I think you're legit. Do you want to go to war on my behalf?
- [30:03]
Anthony Delaney
Count me in. Thanks very much. That's why I'm here. Off I go. Yeah, she's simple as that.
- [30:07]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, exactly. Fantastic. So she is. She is sent to war. She's sent in April 1429. So she met the king in, I think, January of that year. So by April, she is off riding towards the siege of Orleans, carrying a banner depicting Christ. Now, my question is the extent to which she's actually strategically leading troops. Like, has she done her officers training? Has she been to Santa's military academy? I'm going to say no. She is there, I think, just as a symbol. She's there to inspire people. As a bit of Catholic eye candy, essentially. She's there.
- [30:43]
Anthony Delaney
Catholic eye candy, that's like me. Maddie, you're describing me now, mind you, you are too. Look at two Catholics on a podcast.
- [30:51]
Maddy Pelling
We should do another podcast that's just recovering Catholics. Okay. So importantly, she is still cross dressing at this point. Now, there is an argument that this is part of the practical reasons that we spoke of, that it's a way to stay safe. Also, it's a way to go into battle. You don't necessarily want to go into battle in a dress, even if you are there as Catholic eye candy. Like, you want some level of physical protection of your body. There's also, I suppose, the fact that she's meant to exude power. She's there representing God and also the king now. And so there's a suggestion that wearing male attire makes her seem more powerful, like she has more authority, which is very, very interesting. And again, there's this question of her sort of hyper femininity playing into this. And also, I suppose you know that early on we see her making this vow of chastity of virginity and that's her kind of secret weapon. That's her power. And I think throughout her story, it kind of fluctuates. And I don't think there's a sort of solid through line of how she understands herself as a woman and her bodily experience in this moment and how she is depicted during her own life by the people around her and the clothing that they apply to her and the symbols they applied to her. But also, obviously, in the centuries afterwards, that it's a fluid thing, which I think is so fascinating. And that feels quite modern to me. You know, I mean, of course we know that that's not the case and that these binaries of gender have. Have not dominated history, just like they don't dominate, you know, us now. But it feels excitingly modern. And I think Joan is an interesting figure to draw into that conversation today, actually, about gender and the definition of gender and how we can play with those boundaries and understand them, that she was doing that in the 15th century and she's doing it now.
- [32:37]
Anthony Delaney
You know, it's so interesting because it's also in many ways not a conversation that Joan herself has fabricated, which is that gender story. That gender story is something that's kind of been placed on top of her, I. E. We need you to look more like a man. Or actually, in that depiction, we need you to look quite feminine for this. You know, I write about the Chevalier Dion, and during the Chevalier Dion's lifetime, Joan of Arc was held up as a parallel to the Chevalier. To go. This is almost the opposite, but the same story. We can send the Chevalier into war now. They laughed the Chevalier out of it. They wouldn't.
- [33:15]
Maddy Pelling
And the Chevalier is a later French spy. Right. Who.
- [33:18]
Anthony Delaney
Yes, sorry.
- [33:18]
Maddy Pelling
That's part of their life as a man and then part as a woman.
- [33:21]
Anthony Delaney
Well, revelations to come in my new book, Queer Georgians, available on the 4th of September, 2025. Nice plug, but that's certainly the received thing. But Joan and the Chevalier very much have this gender story placed upon them by French authority. I'm really, like, drawing that line even more clearly now.
- [33:40]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And that actually, in terms of both of those figures, it changes throughout their life. It's not a transition from one to the other. And then that sticks, you know, that it's constantly changing, that it's fluid. And the thing I will say about Joan as well is that even though people apply these men's clothes to her, that they tell her to dress up in this way in order to lead troops into battle, it is still controversial in that moment. And actually her cross dressing is going to become one of the main complaints against her later on that this is going to, you know, this is a dangerous thing to do because I think there is a temptation, I suppose, to look back at Joan and go, wow, she was a powerful woman. And she was, to a certain extent, you know, she had this vision of her life, what it was going to be, what she could contribute to the moment that she lived in. And she had absolute faith in God, in herself as well, that she was right, that she was interpreting these things correctly. The conviction that she felt did not necessarily protect her, that it was such a dangerous thing to do as a 16 year old girl to stand up and be like, so easy to do it to me. Yeah, that she must have been so convinced of it and she must have had some kind of charisma or something that she was able to convince these powerful men around her that, yeah, God's speaking to me, let's go. But also there were dangers and this wasn't necessarily going to be allowed. You know, the enemies of the Dao fan, the enemies of Joan, therefore, we're going to try and tear her down for this. So there is enormous risk, okay. Like she's not just running into battle and that's a dangerous thing. Her simply being there, dressed as a man, saying that she's imbued with the power of God is an incredible risk. It's so dangerous and she still does it.
- [35:27]
Kristen
It's Marc Maron here, host of WTF with Marc Maron on acast. When I started this podcast, I didn't have a lot of expectations, but somewhere along the line, podcasting became a serious business. And if you're serious about making money doing a podcast, there's only one place to do it. Acast. ACAST generates more revenue more reliably than any other platform. Join Acast, the number one podcast platform for monetization, by visiting go.acast.com WTF.
- [36:07]
Anthony Delaney
So this brings us then, does it not, to Joan heading for the battlefield and for the siege of Orleans. And this is one of the kind of key moments in who is about to claim power in France. And it's going to bring us to the end of our first episode. Remember, this is a two part history across two episodes. So, Maddy, lead us out with another insight as to what happens once she actually gets to Orleans.
- [36:39]
Narrator
French troops were battle weary after six months of bloodshed against the English at the siege of Orleans. The Hundred Years War was on a knife edge, arriving at speed on horseback and brandishing her banner with the image.
- [36:53]
Maddy Pelling
Of God and two angels.
- [36:54]
Narrator
On it is Joan of Arc to rally the men with her infatigable sense of divine purpose. The English are steadfast in holding their stronghold of Les Tourelles, the turreted gatehouse, as they rain down arrows and stones upon their enemy. In response, the French launch missiles of fire, rope nets and scalding oil. In the center of this hellish scene is the holy Jeanne d'arc leading the charge. When the whistle of an arrow is heard, it strikes between her shoulder and throat, piercing her armor. Shock and confusion follow. She stumbles and is carried from the battlefield. Her wound, though, is not fatal. It's treated with olive oil and lard. And with renewed vigor she mounts her horse to rejoin the battlefield. As the French pour over the ramparts, the balance of the war tilted.
- [38:04]
Anthony Delaney
Well, there we have it. Joan is smeared in olive oil and lard as anyone might be in the middle of a battle, and she has returned to take up the mantle of her military lead. Next week, we will fill you in on where the story and the history goes from here. Until then, go back and check out our back catalogue. We've got some other French history in there too. And until next time, happy listening.
- [38:37]
Maddy Pelling
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.
- [38:41]
Anthony Delaney
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [38:45]
Jen
I'm Kristen.
- [38:46]
H
And I'm Jen from the I Mom so Hard podcast.
- [38:48]
Jen
We don't want to brag, but yes, we are moms. We're average moms.
- [38:52]
H
Below average sometimes.
- [38:53]
Jen
But we're not just moms.
- [38:55]
H
And we're not just supermodels either. We're not just pieces of meat.
- [38:58]
Jen
That's right. We're not even close. We are comedians and we're also best friends.
- [39:02]
H
We're also best selling authors and television writers. We created a viral web series with.
- [39:07]
Jen
Over 300 million views. What's up? Who's bragging? And we. We were in our swimsuits. Again, not supermodels.
- [39:13]
H
We're also podcasters.
- [39:14]
Jen
Are we podcasting right now?
- [39:15]
H
Not right now, but we have been bringing laughs every Tuesday to women and moms everywhere.
- [39:20]
Jen
And one dude who's a sophomore in college, his name's Greg Whatever. He messaged us and made me feel cool.
- [39:24]
H
So nice. Amazing. Please listen to the mom so Hard podcast on acast.
- [39:29]
Jen
Woo.
- [39:31]
Maddy Pelling
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts every everywhere. Acas.com.