Final Days of Joan of Arc: Trial & Execution

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode: Final Days of Joan of Arc: Trial & Execution
Release Date: March 20, 2025
Hosts: Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal, historians Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling delve deep into the tumultuous final days of Joan of Arc. Stripping away centuries of myth and agenda-driven narratives, the hosts aim to uncover the raw and often misunderstood truth behind Joan's trial and execution.

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Joan of Arc's Rise and the Siege of Orleans ([01:55] - [05:46])

Maddy Pelling sets the stage by recounting Joan of Arc's improbable journey from a peasant girl in Domremy to the commander of the French army during the Siege of Orleans. At just 17, Joan's divine visions and unwavering faith convinced King Charles VII to entrust her with a critical mission during a pivotal moment in the Hundred Years' War.

Maddy Pelling: "A teenage girl dressed in men's armour, clutching victory from the jaws of defeat at the siege of Orleans. But her good fortune would not hold Joan in the eyes of her enemies..."

However, amidst triumph, Joan's meteoric rise also sowed the seeds of jealousy and distrust among powerful factions, setting the stage for her eventual betrayal.

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Political Intrigue and Betrayal ([05:46] - [11:04])

Anthony Delaney and Maddy explore the intricate political landscape that led to Joan's downfall. Despite her successes, Charles VII's advisors grew wary of her influence, perceiving her as a threat to their power dynamics.

Anthony Delaney: "A lot of Charles's advisors see that Joan has become incredibly powerful, that she has become close to the King. This is a really, you know, dangerous position to allow anybody to occupy, let alone a woman."

By September 1429, tensions mount as Joan's ambitions clash with the cautious strategies of the French court, culminating in her capture by the Burgundians and subsequent sale to the English.

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Capture and Trial in Rouen ([14:13] - [25:16])

The episode transitions to the grim setting of Rouen's ecclesiastical court, where Joan stands trial under the leadership of Bishop Pierre Couchon. The charges against her—witchcraft, heresy, and cross-dressing—are less about justice and more about political maneuvering to discredit Charles VII.

Maddy Pelling: "It's a classic thing, isn't it, of undermining this woman and her power... to strip women of their power."

Despite brutal interrogations, Joan remains steadfast, showcasing a resilience that borders on the legendary. Her final act of defiance comes when she attempts to withdraw her coerced confession, choosing integrity over survival.

Maddy Pelling: "She withdraws her confession and she says that she would rather die than deny the truth."

This moment underscores the profound strength of character that has immortalized Joan in history, even as the forces against her tighten their grip.

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Execution and Aftermath ([25:16] - [38:24])

On a fateful morning in May 1431, Joan is executed by burning in Rouen's marketplace. The dramatic portrayal of her martyrdom—complete with symbolic imagery like her unburned heart—serves to elevate her legacy beyond her earthly demise.

Maddy Pelling: "She is wearing white with a red underskirt, but very much dressed as a woman... she has a sense of biblical resignation."

Posthumously, Joan undergoes a retrial that declares her innocent 25 years later, paving the way for her canonization in 1920. Anthony and Maddy reflect on the layers of mythologizing that have obscured the real Joan, transforming her into an enduring icon of female empowerment and resistance.

Anthony Delaney: "We know so little about the woman herself actually only what people want us to know and only what people are powerful enough to make us try to believe about her."

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Depictions and Legacy ([31:24] - [36:43])

The hosts examine various depictions of Joan of Arc across history, highlighting how her image has been adapted to fit the cultural and political needs of different eras. From a 1429 manuscript illustration to Romantic and Victorian portrayals, and finally to modern feminist icons, Joan's image has been continually reshaped.

Maddy Pelling: "Joan has become more a figure for feminism... a shorthand for female empowerment and resistance in some way."

This ongoing reinterpretation underscores the complex legacy of Joan of Arc, who remains a symbol of strength, faith, and resilience centuries after her death.

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Conclusion

Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling conclude the episode with a poignant reflection on the elusive truth of Joan of Arc's life. Despite exhaustive research, the real Joan remains shrouded in layers of myth and manipulation, leaving historians to piece together fragments of a life both extraordinary and tragically cut short.

Anthony Delaney: "That image from 1429... it's as close as we might be able to get to her."

The episode closes by acknowledging the enduring fascination with Joan of Arc and the challenges of separating historical fact from enduring legend.

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Notable Quotes

• Maddy Pelling ([01:55]): "From growing up as a peasant in the rural setting of Domremy to convincing the king of her divine powers with such certainty..."
• Anthony Delaney ([05:46]): "A lot of Charles's advisors see that Joan has become incredibly powerful... she is a threat."
• Maddy Pelling ([14:13]): "It's a classic thing... to strip women of their power."
• Anthony Delaney ([26:30]): "We know so little about the woman herself... only what people want us to know."
• Maddy Pelling ([34:10]): "Joan has become more a figure for feminism... a shorthand for female empowerment and resistance."

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Further Engagement

Listeners are encouraged to follow Anthony and Maddy on Instagram (@AntoineDelaney and @MaddyPelling) for additional content and updates. Suggestions for future episodes can be emailed to [e-mail].

Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling, and if you would like After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal ad free and get early access.

[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Holly Fry]

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Me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to Our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maddy Pelling]

No one could have foreseen the path Joan of Arc's life had taken up to this point. Well, perhaps only visionaries like Joan herself, of course. From growing up as a peasant in the rural setting of Domremy to convincing the king of her divine powers with such certainty that he entrusted her with his army at the height of a civil war, an army that she'd led fearlessly. A teenage girl dressed in men's armour, clutching victory from the jaws of defeat at the siege of Orleans. But her good fortune would not hold Joan in the eyes of her enemies, and there were many had taken things too far. Now, so many of the very voices that lifted her to greatness are plotting her downfall, a move that must have shocked and stung every bit as much as the arrow that tore through her armor and pierced her flesh. Joan of arc, now just 17 years old, wounded but victorious from the Siege of Orlear, is soon to be betrayed in A shocking move that will lead to her trial and eventual death.

[Anthony Delaney]

Bonjour et bienvenue after dark. Avec moi.

[Maddy Pelling]

Quoi?

[Anthony Delaney]

Anthony Etoi. Maddie.

[Maddy Pelling]

Madeleine. Merci. Oh, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Look at you with your whole French name. Can I tell you something really embarrassing? We're gonna get into this. Sorry. Okay, before we do this, this is episode two of two, exploring the history behind the myth of Joan of Arc. So that's the professional bit out of the way at this point. We've gotten to the siege of Orleans, and Joan has had all these mad visions. She's said, look, I can help the dauph. Cause I'm going to go to his camp and ask him, can I lead some of his army into battle? He says, go on, sir. What have I got to lose? And on she goes, and she leads them into the siege of Orleans. And that's been going on for months, by the way. They're all very tired, but she's supposed to help kind of reinvigorate them.

[Maddy Pelling]

They're all very tired. They need a little spa retreat to get over the siege.

[Anthony Delaney]

Wellness time. And she's off. And then she gets an arrow. And then they're like, don't worry about that, Joan. We're just going to put some lard on you and send you back out. And that's exactly what they did. Okay, we've got the housekeeping out of the way. We will come back to this in just a second. But I have to tell you this, because this is mortifying. You know, the way in the last episode, Maddie, I said that I had. From the first year of my degree, I did a language just for the first year. And I knew I was dropping it, and it was fine, and I did French. And I was okay at everything apart from the grammar. I was diabolical at the grammar. But in the first lesson that you have where you have to speak French the entire time, and you had to introduce yourself, like, as you would, but you had to do it in French. And so there was me, and I was so green, and I was so naive, and I. Oh, God, it makes me feel so sick.

[Maddy Pelling]

I feel nervous.

[Anthony Delaney]

It makes me feel so sick. And I said, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like. And je m'appelle Antoine. Right? Not because I wanted people to think I was called Antoine, just because I was like, oh, that's the French of my name. So I'll say my. And then I went around the room. Everyone else. I was first. Everyone else went around the room, and they just gave their actual normal names like they just said their names like they were. And I was like. And then for quite a few weeks afterwards, my teacher Antoine thought I was called Antoine. And I was like, no. Why? Why did I do that? I was so embarrassed. It still makes me. I'm flushing now. My hands have just gone all sweaty. But that has nothing got to do with Joan of Arc.

[Maddy Pelling]

Social anxiety of that.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh my God.

[Maddy Pelling]

In my life, I have adopted a saying of yours, which is when you say, I'm scarlet for your ma, and in this moment, I am scarlet for your ma.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my mother would have been scarlet for me as well, or for herself as well, if she'd. In fact, hopefully she's not listening to this. Cause I've never said that to her. She would kick me out. Even still. Even though I don't live at home.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, well, welcome to this episode with Madeleine and Antoine.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's what reminded me. Yeah, no absolute trauma. How come? These two episodes have been very traumatic for us, actually.

[Maddy Pelling]

Not as traumatic. Getting back to the story, I think this is going to be more traumatic.

[Anthony Delaney]

She's just had an arrow in her shoulder. So she wins the trauma awards.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, but did she ever embarrass herself socially, I mean, never.

[Anthony Delaney]

Probably not.

[Maddy Pelling]

No, probably not. So Joan, aside from being pierced by an arrow, has just enjoyed this victory. She is at the high point of her weird career as a divine person on earth working for the king. She's in this moment of triumph, really. And in July of 1429, so the siege is in April, we're into July now. Charles VII is. He goes to Rheims, lovely cathedral at Rheims, by the way. I have been there and I remember from memory. I remember from memory.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's how memory is.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's what you do that. There's a lot of historic graffiti in that cathedral. It's really, really beautiful. So if anyone lives near there or is visiting, go in and check out the graffiti. Anyway, Charles gets to the cathedral and he is crowned. He's crowned as king. And this is seen as the fulfillment of Joan's divine mission. Right. That she all her life has felt that she was there to unite France, to help the king become the king. And she's done that now. And she is by his side as this great person imbued with the power of God alongside the monarch. But of course, inevitably, because this is really a story about human beings and not about God at all. The success of Joan in particular breeds a lot of jealousy, jealousy from powerful men. Because this 17 year old girl has stuck her Neck out too far and now she needs to wind it in and shut up. So a lot of Charles's advisors see that Joan has become incredibly powerful, that she has become close to the King. And according to the narrative that she herself has given them and that's grown and grown, she is responsible for the King's success, right, that this 17 year old girl has had a word with God and sorted it for him. This is a really, you know, dangerous position to allow anybody to occupy, let alone a woman. So in September of that year, things start to unravel a little bit. So Joan is really keen to push on. She's like, yeah, God's still on my side. It's all going really well. Her neck's still stuck right out there. She's not really picking up on the vibes in the room. She's like, everyone loves me, it's fine. She says, right, I'm going to capture Paris now. I'm going to plow on. We are going to get this done. This is fantastic. Paris at the time, by the way, is being held by the English and the Burgundians, who were the French allies of the English. You would think that Charles would be like, yeah, of course, my godly right hand female leader of troops and men absolutely is going to sort this for me. But instead he has just started these very delicate political negotiations and he's like, do you know what, maybe this isn't the time to lay siege to the city. Maybe we just hang back a little bit and relax. And Joan's like, no, come on, we've got this. And it starts to create a bit of tension. Now, by May of the following year, so that's in September, by May, the end really starts to begin for Joan because she is captured by the Burgundians at Compiegne and she is sold to the English as a prisoner for 10,000 livres. Now, I imagine that's a huge amount of money in 15th century France. I haven't done the conversion rates. It's so fascinating. Like, how do you put a value on, on the one hand, a 17 year old girl, but a 17 year old girl who is imbued with the power of God and who has been the right hand person of the King, the enemy of the English in this moment, how do they come up with that number? It's just fascinating to me.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's also like, it's very clear from that point what Charles VII is doing, because there's only going to be one outcome. She's only valuable to them for One reason, like, in place of Charles VII himself, this is who they need symbolically. And this, again, speaks to how Joan is seen as a tool for these men rather than necessarily, you know, we associate so much power and so much agency and influence with Joan, but actually she only has that while she's granted it to a certain extent.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I don't think it's that Charles necessarily hands her over, but I think when she's captured, he certainly doesn't seem to make much of an effort to get her back. Right. Yeah, he's kind of happy to see her go, because, as you say, this town's only big enough for one of them, and she's gotta go like, she's not the king. She doesn't have the crown on her head. So she is a threat. Because if people have believed her so far and not only believed her, but followed her into battle, followed her banner, her religiously legitimized banner, what is to stop Joan from turning around and being like, do you know what? Actually, Charles VII isn't the king. God's telling me a different thing now. We need to go in a different direction. So I'm sure there is a part of Charles who's like, okay, this has worked out well. I'm just gonna let this play out.

[Anthony Delaney]

Finish it there. Yeah, exactly.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. And he does. You know, she's not saved. She's in the hands of the English. And to the English and to the Burgundians, she is an incredibly dangerous figure. She has legitimized the cause against them. And there are people on both sides, of course, who, you know, do talking about getting to that mindset of the past. People believe that she is talking to God, that God is acting through her on both sides of this struggle. She needs to be silenced because she holds that power, Power that could override all of these important men. With the Venmo debit card, you can turn the mini golf outing your co workers paid you back for into a trip to Miami with your best friend earning you up to 5% cash back. Use Venmo to pay for the things you love to do. Visit Venmo Me Devitt to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. Terms apply. Dosh. Cashback, term supply.

[Holly Fry]

Okay, you guys, everyone wants to know, are you DTF down to farm?

[Maddy Pelling]

That is. That's right.

[Holly Fry]

Farmer wants a wife is back on Fox with four hot new farmers looking.

[Maddy Pelling]

For the love of their lives. But are these ladies ready to take on farm life?

[Holly Fry]

And you know, dating one woman has its challenges, but juggling five?

[Maddy Pelling]

These farmers are gonna have their hands full.

[Holly Fry]

Don't miss the all new season of Farmer Wants a Wife Thursday on Fox.

[Anthony Delaney]

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[Holly Fry]

Learn [e-mail] Our skin tells a Story Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, so Jones, with the English now in France, still tell us what happens once they get their clammy mitts on her.

[Maddy Pelling]

In the sombre halls of Rouen's ecclesiastical court, a palpable tension hangs in the air as Joan of Arc, the Maid of Orleans, stands before her accusers. The cold stone walls echo the accusations put to her, led by Bishop Pierre Couchon. It's an entirely political move that seeks to discredit Charles VII by proving that Joan, the young peasant girl who stands here now, a battle hardened warrior, was a heretic all along. The charges she faces include witchcraft. How else could a peasant girl rise to lead an army, cross dressing, the gall to wear men's military attire for protection in battle, and heresy for the divine visions that sparked her remarkable journey. Despite brutal interrogation, Joan remains composed and resolute, outwitting her judges multiple times. When asked if she is in God's grace, she replies, if I am not, may God put me there. If I am, may he keep me. The judges cannot break her spirit, so they turn to their last weapon, fear.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right. So they're questioning everything. They're not just questioning, they're undermining everything they're saying Right. This is actually witchcraft. You're a heretic. There's something really inevitable about this, isn't there? Like, it feels especially inevitable because she's a woman. It's especially inevitable because she's involved in power now. Because often with, you know, some of the earlier saints that you mentioned in episode one, yes, they had influence, but it was very godly influence and it was. It was a different type of thing. And now we have Joan, who's still, remember a teenager who has helped to shape political life in France in one way or another. And, you know, that's just too much. They can't allow that to stand. And she has served her purpose. And also, bear in mind this faction, the Burgundians and the English, they've lost. They need somebody to blame and to save face. They're gonna. Well, of course, we didn't stand a bloody chance. They had a witch. So, you know, this is who needs to be punished.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, it's a classic thing, isn't it, of, like, undermining this woman and her power, saying that she can't really be believed, that she has got herself into this powerful situation through less than honourable means, through witchcraft, through magic, through deceit, through lying about her divine powers and God and, you know, committing this heretical act or series of acts. I mean, it's sort of just a classic way to strip women of their power. You know, we see it again and again across the centuries. There's nothing new here. But I think in terms of Joan in particular, we spoke in episode one about how there are so many different versions of her applied onto her that she doesn't necessarily herself seek to embody the different versions that we get in this story during her lifetime and in the centuries afterwards. And this is just another example of that, that she becomes a witch in the eyes of the court, that she becomes a heretic. These are just different versions of womanhood, different versions of Joan as a symbol, not as a person, that are applied to her. There's an image that I want to discuss, which is from the same manuscript from the 1490s. So a little bit after her time, but not without living memory. And this time we saw in episode one, her meeting the king, that turning point where she convinces him that she is divine. And we see her now in this, being captured, being taken as a prisoner. And I wonder what you make of it, Anthony? I will say she's wearing the same outfit in this second image that she was in the first one, presumably. So she's a recognisable figure throughout the manuscript, but she's a bit of an outfit repeater, but go on, what do you think of this?

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, she's back, back, back, back, back again. She's got the hair still flowing, and I would actually say flowing longer this time than it was in the initial.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, it's grown about three foot.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

So that lard. Lard and olive oil on the hair as well as the wound. Clearly.

[Anthony Delaney]

She is dressed in white with a red underskirt, but very much dressed as a woman. She's being led through. Well, she's been led towards. Actually, interestingly, she's been led towards some kind of a fort or castle type thing, which, you know, symbolically would be showing us power down a path.

[Maddy Pelling]

I wonder if it is the city of Ruan, actually, because that's where she's tried. So I wonder if that's her being being taken to the city. I've been to Ruan as well, and I can't remember. I assume there are city walls, maybe, not city walls.

[Anthony Delaney]

It definitely would have been then, though. Yeah, exactly, Surely.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So, yeah, she's been led by all these men. There's other men behind them. Kind of look like they're discussing what to do with her slightly. She looks very placid and very serene and very almost, you know, again, it's that kind of biblical resignation. If God wills it, so shall it be, kind of a thing.

[Maddy Pelling]

She's ready to be martyred, isn't she? I think, you know, that's, you know, okay, this is still an image from the 15th century, but, you know, maybe a generation, or even two generations after she meets her end. And there's a sense at this point in the story that in terms of this retelling anyway, that she is rising above everything, because she so believes that she's right, that even if she's martyred, it doesn't matter. And I think you're right, it is kind of biblical. It reminds me of depictions of Christ being taken with the cross to be killed, to be crucified. And there's something there about that kind of. Yeah, that resignation, that giving in to martyrdom, that this process, these things being done to you are only going to elevate you in your message. And I think that's how Joan is portrayed. I mean, I doubt she felt that way in this moment. You know, she's up on trial being accused of all these things. And as you say, she's still a teenager, you know, a term that very much comes in, in the 20th century. You know, you sort of think of the 50s and 60s and this almost invention of the teenage and that actually in the past people were introduced to a form of adulthood a lot earlier and that, you know, as whatever she is now, 18 year old, I think 19 year old maybe, that she is very much an adult in terms of her own society, the context that she's in. But she's still a young woman. Whether we see her as a teenager, as a child still or not, she is still a young woman being tried by men who are much older, with much more authority. And it's a power imbalance that we find often in history. But I think in terms of accessing the human being, that was Joan herself. I wonder what she was experiencing in that moment. And it must have just been panic.

[Anthony Delaney]

I haven't thought about Joan for quite the many years, probably since that movie, I suppose not in any real, real depth. And so these episodes have been really interesting in that I now partially believe absolutely nothing that we're left with about her. Because everything is so agenda filled, like everything is so agenda filled and it's not coming to us from her. And even if it was, she's part of that agenda too.

[Maddy Pelling]

And gender filled, right? There's so much of. Gender filled, gender filled. There's so much of her story that is about her womanhood, her womanhood being changed or altered or abused or subverted, which is so interesting that probably, you know, wasn't something that she was actively thinking about in her own story.

[Anthony Delaney]

I don't know, it's just, it's weird. It feels very like she's constantly in places that we're told she wants to be. But I don't see the appeal for her in any way, shape or form. And we're like, it's always people in authority saying, well, she made her way here and she did this and she did this and she, she, she, she, she. And there'll be elements of truth in that. I can't help but feel instinctively that, you know, I, I don't doubt that she thought she was hearing the voice of God. We know that that's really common for a lot of people in their, A lot of women, particularly in their early to late teenage years, it's absolutely accounted for. France is a really good example of a lot of those things.

[Maddy Pelling]

In the same way that poltergeist cases are always associated with teenagers and specifically teenage girls. Right. That this is an age where you are susceptible to ideas of sort of otherworldliness and you're exploring your power, I suppose, and trying to Negotiate your place in the world. And the supernatural, whether it's religious or otherwise, kind of comes into that.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. It's seen as a precursor to that, that we understand of like, you know, the Battersea poltergeist. The girls stopped having those divine conversations and they started being more linked to poltergeist activity or paranormal activity. And so I don't doubt that. But you asked, do you think she was kind of relaxed into her martyrdom or if she was petrified? And to me, it just really feels to me as she was probably petrified for quite some time. Like. I don't know. I mean. Yeah, and we can never know because it's so myth made.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. So one of the things that we do know about her, and I think this is really telling actually, is that in May 1431, so she's been a prisoner for a while at this point, she's taken to the cemetery of a church and she is made to look at and eventually made to sign a document that essentially says, I made it all up, I am a criminal. And she does sign it. She hesitates, but she signs it because presumably she is so ground down in that moment, she's so terrified, she is so feared for her own safety, for her life, all the rest of it. And it's important to say, as you guessed @ In episode one, Anthony, she was illiterate. So there's a good chance actually that she was forced to sign something that she didn't really know what she was signing. I doubt the whole thing was read out to her or explained. And, you know, it's a complicated legal document that she's presented with. When she does sign it, she is said to have done so because she believes it's pleasing to the Lord. This is what she's being instructed to do. And there's a sort of sense there of like, I definitely understand this in terms of sort of female obedience that someone tells her to do something and it's kind of a bit of people pleasing. She's like, well, these men in authority are telling me this is what God wants and I don't want to piss God off, so I better do it. And then days later, and this is a kind of interesting insight into the person that she was and that she did have some strength about her that is, I suppose, backed by this belief in the divine. She withdraws that confession. Maybe she just has time to actually think about it and think and to realise what she signed and the meaning of that, the consequence of that. But she withdraws her confession and she says that she would rather die than deny the truth. I think that's so interesting, and I think it gives you a little bit of an insight into her mental state, albeit, you know, you have to speculate and we have to fill in the blanks. But there is. Yeah, there's something there. There's a little hint of something.

[Anthony Delaney]

There is, but it might also be manipulation in another way. So just as her life is written for a particular purpose during the time she's with Charles vii, so the aftermath is written for a different purpose by a different set of people with a more religious bent, because they are shoring up this direct link to God. So really what we're told is, we're told she said that, and we're told this is how she felt, because we don't have it in her own. In her own words. And there are plenty of other powerful men in the church now this time who very easily will have. Even within. You know, because you were talking about some of those stories, they come out within kind of 60 years of her having died. Those images are kind of within 60 years of her having died. They now have another agenda for her, and that agenda is to shore up the Catholic Church and to say that God is talking to us. He walks amongst us, he is controlling us, and you should be controlled by Him. And so Joan takes on this other mantle then very, very soon after her death, where, you know, she's seen as a figurehead in another way. It's so interesting because I started episode one by saying we're going to try and get closer to the real Joan and her real history. I feel further and further away from her, actually, the more we kind of discover about this.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think that's a really interesting point to take on board. Yeah. And it is really frustrating. And even, as you say, there is a question mark over how much we can read into her behaviour, because even the behaviour that's reported may not actually be the way that she acted, the actions that she took. So it's. It's really interesting. What I will say for the next part of our story is, either way, it ain't looking good. On the fateful May morning of 1431, crowds begin to gather in Rouen's Mouth marketplace, surrounding the grim scaffold at the center of it. Joan of ARC, barely 19 years old, stands defiantly bound to a stake. The executioner's torch is lowered to the base of the wood stacked around her, and soon the flames begin licking at her feet. Her cries of Jesus. Jesus. Ring out as the Flames roar louder, engulfing her. Watching in horrified fascination, the crowd are soon hushed to astonishment when the last of the fire dies to embers. There amidst the ashes and smoke, is Joan's heart, unburned and intact. Though the English authorities attempt to burn her heart twice more, they eventually cast all her remains into the Seine. While the water closes over the last remnants of Jeanne d'arc, her legend and belief in her sainthood is set on its way.

[Anthony Delaney]

Lies. You're telling me lies. On the podcast now, Maddie Pearling.

[Maddy Pelling]

I love to tell you fake history. I love this part of the story. I mean, clearly it's not true, but love it.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a lot. It's very, very dramatic. And it just, again, it takes us away from her, though, doesn't it? It kind of goes. And here we are left with almost like the Sacred Heart when we think about that Catholic iconography.

[Maddy Pelling]

It is so Catholic. It's so, so, so Catholic. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And, you know, it creates. It's kind of getting close to a relic of her, even though the heart itself is thrown into the Seine, so it hasn't survived as a relic, but there is a sense of that being a sort of, you know, that if someone else had got their hands on that, they would have kept it as a relic and it would be in Rouen Cathedral or wherever now, you know, and I've no doubt there were probably several Joan of Arc hearts circulating in the years after her death. You know, it's just. It's absolutely fascinating. Yeah, it's so Catholic, but it also, as you say, it kind of removes us again from this person, that even her bodily remains are. Are treated in this kind of mythologizing way that she is, even in death, even when she's literally reduced to embers, she still has this symbology applied to her.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a little annoying. Do you know what I mean by that? Like, just the ways in which she is so consistently used. We know that there is another trial. Like, what is this? 20 years? 20 odd. 25 years later, she's put on trial again in Rouen. But this time, she's found innocent.

[Maddy Pelling]

She ain't there this time, and she's not there.

[Anthony Delaney]

And. And it's like, but look who puts her on trial. It's the Pope. And so this kind of feel. And that is 25 years later. So very quickly, we're like, we can use her. Let's use her for this, just as Charles VII had used her. And it's. Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's so fascinating. She. Yes, she's declared innocent, as you say, 25 years later. And then she has to wait quite a long time, though, to be canonized. So she's canonized?

[Anthony Delaney]

It was that long?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, she's canonized in 1920 by the Catholic Church, of course. And I think it's interesting that it takes that long for that to happen because she is so ingrained into European culture. You know, she's painted by Romantic artists in Britain, in Germany, in France. She is the subject of so many visual representations, cinematic representations, later on, theatrical representations. She's sung about. She is understood in all these different ways, and it takes that long for her to be canonized. Really, really interesting. I have three depictions of her that I just want you to really quickly describe, and then we can sort of think about them. I'll tell you where this one is from, and then I won't tell you about the other two, but the first one is a little doodle on the edge of a manuscript. And this is the only depiction we know of of Joan during her lifetime. She was still alive when this depiction was produced in 1429. I am obsessed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Obsessed. I want this. I don't know how I'm gonna get my hands on it. I don't think I can. But it's absolutely incredible.

[Maddy Pelling]

Can I just say, it would make the most amazing tattoo.

[Anthony Delaney]

It would. And I'm not a tattoo y person, but, yes, that would make a great tattoo, actually. But, Maddie, this, I think, might be the closest we can get to her in all of this episode. And look at what we're looking at. We see a woman dressed as a woman standing in power as a woman. She is in a female dress, 1429. Now she has a sword in hand. She's carrying the banner that says IHS on top. So she's, you know, she's carrying the religious banner. So don't get me wrong. This is iconography. This is still trying to do something. But that, to me, is the closest we can get to her. Like her, there she is in 1429, in her own lifetime. That, for me, feels as close as we can get to her. We'll post this image on our socials, because that's a great image. I love that image.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's so exciting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And the fact that she's not in men's clothing is so fascinating. I don't think it's suggesting that she never dressed as a man.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think it's saying that her femininity, her womanhood, is Crucial to her depiction, to how she's understood in that moment. Her being a woman is so important, it's so fascinating. And then we get these later representations. And to be honest, I went down a rabbit hole and I did spend, honestly, a good hour looking at different portrayals of Joan in the 18th and 19th century. But I settled on this one. It's the scene that I've just described of her death, but it's so coded with the romanticism of the late 18th, early 19th century. It's actually painted by a German artist in 1843. But it's so dramatic, it's almost cinematic. It's the scene you probably have in your head for this moment.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It really speaks to the invention of the image. The sticks beneath her, the timber beneath her is starting to smoulder. This is just before the flames start to lick. She is standing on a platform and she's chained to what looks like just a very rudimentary piece of wood. The wind is blowing her skirts. She has shorter hair in this. See that? This is now very interesting because we go from that 1429 depiction where her hair looks like it's plaited, potentially, and it's certainly long and now it's shoulder length and she looks very pale. She's looking up into the heavens, you know.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, she's looking to God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's such a sort of a romantic posture to take, isn't it? You know, she's sort of poetic and. Yeah, I'm obsessed. And then the final image is absolutely the version that I think we have inherited in our own modern day of this defiant, gender defining or gender defying, I suppose, strong version of Joan.

[Anthony Delaney]

I wonder how much can be said for as Charles VII used her, as the Pope then used her 20 years later, so too we're using her symbolically to give these different messages at different times. And we've spoken about this before in terms of Anne Boleyn, for instance. She can mean different things at different times. And that's where the icon status comes in, where actually we strip away the personhood. She no longer remains a human being because we don't have that access to her and she becomes an icon. And therefore we can recycle her depending on what we need her to be.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, that's absolutely the case. In the third image we've got Chapel rowan at the VMAs dressed in this really shiny, hyper feminized armour, actually, again with, you know, sort of a literal armor breastplate, but that, you know, Accentuates the female breasts and the cinched in waist and everything. It's very sort of feminine. She's got this long red, classic chapel rowan hair, but, you know, very sort of Joan of Arc coded plaited behind her and she's holding this giant sword and I think, you know, speaks to. I mean, we've seen lots of pop stars try and embody Joan of Arc over the years. There's the, I think the Kate Bush, I can't remember which album it is. I'm sure there's an album cover where she's similarly actually in armour and she's got kind of cropped hair and stuff. It's interesting that Joan has become in our own modern moment that is probably less religiously governed than the past has been. Joan has become more a sort of figure for feminism, I suppose, and particularly kind of pop feminism. And I don't necessarily just mean in terms of pop music, but a kind of, you know, she's a shorthand for female empowerment and resistance and rebellion in some way. You know, I think that's kind of interesting given that in her own lifetime she existed within all the limits of her own society and, yes, subverted them. And, you know, when we think about her vow of chastity and things that she kind of took the tools available to her in order to empower herself as much as she could. But we've seen her so often kind of fulfilling different ideals of womanhood, we think about, you know, those sort of Victorian versions of her. So we have the sort of sweeping romanticism of the 18th and early 19th centuries where she's this kind of poetical, literally romantic figure. And then the Victorians give her another makeover where she's kind of buttoned up in her armor and she's quite, you know, she once again represents kind of chastity and female virtue in a very Victorian way. And then I think for us now, she's a rebel again. And I think that's exciting and I'm sort of interested to see where she'll go next, if she'll continue, you know, she's still incredibly relevant, so presumably she will continue to be so for centuries to come.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's been an interesting exploration and it's been somewhat frustrating in some ways. And I mean that in a kind of as positive as frustration can be in that My takeaway from this is that we know so little about the woman herself actually only what people want us to know and only what people are powerful enough to make us try to believe about her. But what I will hold onto with that in mind. Is that image from 1429. I think that is so striking. I think it's as close as we can get. Does it tell us an awful lot? No, it doesn't. But there's something about that particular image that I think, given the, given the contemporaneous of the depiction, that it's from her own time that she was living and breathing at that time. It's as close as we might be able to get. So that, that for me, and I'd never seen that image before. So thank you for bringing that to the podcast, Paddy Melling.

[Maddy Pelling]

You're very welcome, Antoine. And we will be sharing that on our socials. So do follow us both on Instagram and you will see that obviously search Antoine de Laney and you will find it. On that note, I think it's probably time to end. This has been. I've really enjoyed these two episodes. I always love a historical figure that has shapeshifted in the centuries since their death. And Joan is kind of in some ways the absolute archetype of that. You know, she's the queen of shape shifting. If you have enjoyed these two episodes on Joan, get in touch with us. If you have suggestions for similar figures you'd like us to treat in this way, you can email [e-mail] Please do not DM us on Instagram simply because we get so many DMs, which is lovely. And I try to look at as many as possible, but I don't have anywhere to file them. So, yeah, send them in.

[Anthony Delaney]

Your ideas are too good to waste. Send them into that email address. Yeah, Maddie, thank you for this. It makes me want to go and look at some scholarship on Joan of Arc, which I didn't start my day thinking I would want to do that. So I want to, I want to see if there's what's out there on her. So I'm going to do that, I think.

[Maddy Pelling]

Goodbye.

[Holly Fry]

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