Georgian England's Notorious Dumpling Poisoner

Summary

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After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode: Georgian England's Notorious Dumpling Poisoner
Hosts: Anthony Delaney & Maddie Pelling
Date: September 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the curious and controversial true crime case of Eliza Fenning, a 22-year-old servant in early 19th-century London who was accused of attempted mass murder—by way of poisoned dumplings. Historians Anthony and Maddie retrace the events that led to Eliza standing trial at the Old Bailey, reflect on the era’s charged social context, and ultimately explore whether Fenning was truly guilty, a victim of class prejudice, or the subject of one of Georgian England’s most notorious miscarriages of justice.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Setting the Scene: Crime and Context

• Time & Place: March 1815, London, at the heart of the legal district on Chancery Lane.
• Victim & Accused: The Turner family falls violently ill after a meal prepared by their servant, Eliza Fenning, who herself also becomes ill.
• Crime: Attempted murder via arsenic poisoning; significant because no one died, yet Eliza faces the death penalty ([04:08]–[08:05]).
• Societal Backdrop: Post-Waterloo Britain, rife with economic hardship, social unrest, and class tensions; pressing issues include food shortages, the Industrial Revolution, and mass migration to cities ([09:04]–[11:35]).
• Historical Note: Class conflict and the precarious position of servants set the stage for intense suspicion and sensationalism.

Eliza Fenning: Background and Circumstances

• Personal Details: 22-year-old literate cook, only surviving child from a working-class family; nine siblings died in infancy. Born in the West Indies to an Irish mother ([11:47]–[13:42]).
• Social Standing: Working class, yet respected enough to garner character references from employers and acquaintances when accused.

"She is the only surviving child of her parents. Bear that in mind as well because I think that is so poignant when we hear the end of the story."
— Maddie ([12:53])

Anatomy of a Victorian Household

• Turner Household: Headed by Robert Gregson Turner (law stationer), with wife Charlotte, teenage son Robert Jr., grandfather Haldibart, apprentice Roger Gadsall, and fellow servant Sarah Pier ([15:44]–[16:18]).
• Servant-Master Dynamics: Intimate living arrangements blur the lines between family and staff, nurturing both dependency and deep-seated tensions ([17:08]–[18:15]).

Early Allegations: Motive and Suspicion

• Tensions & Testimonies: Charlotte Turner (the mistress) testifies to an incident where Eliza entered the young men’s room “partially undressed,” signaling sexual impropriety—a key element in the later vilification of Eliza ([18:24]–[19:52]).
• Class and Gender Prejudices: The trial capitalizes on accusations of immorality and sexual transgression, painting Eliza as both sensual and threatening.

"I'm just gonna say her boobs have been put on with an ice cream scoop."
— Maddie ([14:36])

The Dumpling Incident: The Meal and Its Aftermath

• The Meal: Eliza prepares beefsteak pie, dumplings, and potatoes. She eats the same dumplings as the Turners.
• Symptoms: Family members (and Eliza) become violently ill almost immediately after eating ([21:54]–[23:41]).
• Possible Causes: Discussion of food hygiene, spoiled ingredients (notably milk), and the plausibility of accidental poisoning ([23:50]–[24:32]).

Forensic Evidence and the Arsenic Mystery

• Grandfather’s “Investigation”: Haldibart claims discovery of a white powder in the dumpling pan and notes silverware blackening—indicative of arsenic, but these findings are suspicious and possibly contaminated ([25:02]–[27:39]).
• Household Supplies: Arsenic was commonly kept for pest control, making its mere presence unremarkable.
• Doctor’s Testimony: Dr. Marshall claims to recover “half a teaspoon of arsenic” from leftovers; the amount allegedly found would have been lethal ([27:41]–[28:13]).
• Eliza’s Defense: She suggests spoiled milk was the cause of illness, not the dumplings ([28:00]–[28:32]).

The Trial: Justice or Prejudgment?

• Legal Environment: Most testimony comes from the employers; Eliza has little ability to mount a defense. Oral evidence dominates, and legal representation is limited for the lower classes ([32:38]–[33:39]).
• Character Assassination: The Turners—and especially Robert Jr.—expand upon rumors of Eliza’s “sexual impropriety,” escalating to claims of exposure or suggestiveness ([34:43]–[35:36]).
• Public Perception: While the employer class is fearful of murderous servants, the working classes see a clear scapegoating of Eliza and rally in her defense.

"There is someone in your house who might murder you. Yeah, that’s pretty frightening. So this captures the attention of middling people as well, for the exact opposite reason that it does the working class people."
— Anthony ([34:43])

The Verdict and Execution

• Judge: John Sylvester, known as a “hanging judge,” reputed for bias against women, pronounces the death sentence; possibly colludes with the prosecution ([40:27]–[41:44]).
• Eliza’s Words:

"I am innocent of the crime. I am not guilty. I wouldn't hurt a hair on anyone's head in the family, much less poison their food."
— Eliza Fenning at trial ([38:52])

• Public Mourning: Eliza’s execution at Newgate draws massive crowds; she’s remembered as a working-class martyr. Her parents pay a bribe to recover her body for burial and host a wake attended by thousands ([43:19]–[45:46]).

"She’s absolutely a martyr. Yes. She’s a martyr for the mob, essentially. And she becomes this figure of, you know, the oppression of the upper classes."
— Maddie ([45:56])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On gendered depiction and media bias:

  "I'm just gonna say her boobs have been put on with an ice cream scoop."
  — Maddie ([14:36])

• On servant mistrust:

  "There is someone in your house who might murder you."
  — Anthony ([34:43])

• On legal mishandling:

  "All that’s happened is some vomiting and suddenly the servant’s at the Old Bailey."
  — Maddie ([24:43])

• Eyewitness at the execution:

  "I had the greatest horror of witnessing an execution, and of this particular execution, a young girl of whose guilt I had grave doubts."
  — William Hone ([43:50])

• Historical resonance:

  "Is it an example of a miscarriage of justice and class prejudice? Or did she get what she deserved in the context of the legal system at the time?"
  — Maddie ([46:44])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [03:50]–[04:08]: Opening summary, the case of the "Dumpling Murder"
• [04:08]–[08:05]: The alleged crime and the ill Turners; first suspicions
• [09:04]–[11:35]: Britain at the end of the Napoleonic Wars; class and economic context
• [13:42]–[15:35]: Eliza’s background, social mobility, and public perception
• [18:24]–[19:52]: Testimony about Eliza’s supposed impropriety
• [21:54]–[23:41]: The meal, illness, and speculation about food poisoning
• [25:02]–[27:39]: “Forensic” evidence and suspicion falling on Eliza
• [32:38]–[33:39]: The structure of the trial; difficulties for defendants
• [34:43]–[35:36]: Smear campaign and gender/class prejudices
• [38:52]: Eliza’s statement in court
• [40:27]–[41:44]: Judge’s verdict and sentencing
• [43:19]–[45:46]: Execution, popular reaction, and Eliza’s legacy

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Conclusions & Reflections

Anthony and Maddie ultimately express doubt about Eliza Fenning’s guilt, pointing to the suspicious nature of evidence, the heavy influence of class and gender bias, and the era’s penchant for scapegoating vulnerable individuals. They highlight the dangers of hasty justice in a system tilted against the poor and powerless and note that Eliza's execution became a flashpoint in debates about class oppression and the "bloody code" of Georgian criminal law.

"It’s debated for years and years and years afterwards. Is it an example of a miscarriage of justice and class prejudice? Or did she get what she deserved in the context of the legal system at the time?"
— Maddie ([46:44])

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Final Thoughts

Listeners are left with an invitation to reflect on whether Eliza was truly guilty, and to see her not just as a historical curiosity, but as a figure whose story illuminates larger issues of class, gender, criminal justice, and the shaping of public opinion—issues as relevant today as they were two centuries ago.

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For feedback and episode suggestions, the hosts remind listeners to contact them at [e-mail], noting that direct email is the surest way to reach the team.

Transcript

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[Anthony]

Hello and welcome to After Dark. My name is Anthony.

[Maddie]

And I'm Maddie.

[Anthony]

And you may have heard of the mushroom murder case recently, but today we are looking at the Dumpling murder case. A 19th century true crime mystery that divided England right down the centre.

[Maddie]

It's a terrifying place, the Old Bailey as it stands at the start of the 19th century. The courtroom ceiling is held aloft by gigantic pillars. A crucifix and the royal coat of arms tower over the heads of the black clad judges and they in turn loom over a pit of men in wigs, all with their heads bowed over their various pieces of paper. Alone in the middle of the room, dwarfed by it all, stands a young serving girl called Eliza Fenning. She is accused of attempted mass murder by poisoning. She faces death. But how has this happened to her? And how on earth has she ended up here? A picture swims before her mind's eye of dumplings. A laughable picture for us maybe, but not for Eliza. For her. It sends cold chills down her spine to remember that pot of dumplings that she'd cooked only a few short weeks ago. She'd been excited about making them proud. Even that things hadn't worked out quite the way she planned. Because of those dumplings, her whole life now hangs in the balance.

[Anthony]

I'm smiling because I'm going because of those dumplings, her whole life hangs in the balance. I mean, this is quite serious, but I've never heard dumplings given such weight before. We are going to be talking about a servant who poisons, potentially poisons their master.

[Maddie]

We love a servant poisoning story.

[Anthony]

Well, exactly. We've seen it before. Right, so we had Misha Yuan, who was talking about poisoning in the Tower of London. We also had Bess and Adams talking about the servants revenge. So go and listen to those. But this time it's slightly different because we have been tasked with a question, and that question is, did Eliza do it? Was anybody even poisoned? Or has this been a gross miscarriage of justice? And if there's anything I like to do, it's act a judge. So I am very, very excited about.

[Maddie]

Anthony has thoughts and opinions aplenty. I'm gonna say right off the back that I don't know if she's guilty or not. I have been sitting with a story in preparation for today's episode, and I was rereading the script on the tube on the way into the studio this morning. I really don't know. And you know what? I was convinced reading it on the commute that you will have a very strong opinion. And I know which way you're gonna go, I think.

[Anthony]

Okay, well, let's see. Let's get into the. Because I'm not 100% sure how I'm gonna go just yet. Before we actually get started, I just want to caveat this, right? This has happened on After Dark before. I have had a dicky tummy for the last few days, and this setting into this, I am. Everything's fine. So let's go into it.

[Maddie]

Can you see the absolute drama of Anthony Delaney? I've had a dicky tummy for three whole months.

[Anthony]

That's called pregnancy. This is just called being Precious. So, you know, more attention my way, please.

[Maddie]

Poor Anthony.

[Anthony]

Right, give me an overview of what's going on at this. So we're in 1815?

[Maddie]

Yes, correct. Well done. Yes, we are. We're In London, it's March 1815, and the drama is taking place predominantly in a house on chancery lane, number 68. And this is a street that's famously at the heart of London's legal district. The Turner family live there, and they become violently unwell, much like Anthony this.

[Anthony]

Week and Maddie for three months prior. I've just taken up where you've left off.

[Maddie]

Great. We are nothing if not a team. Yes, they become unwell after eating dumplings that had been made by the family servant, Eliza Fenning. The important thing to remember, though, is nobody actually dies.

[Anthony]

Which begs the question, and I'm sure there is reason why on earth are we here? But we'll get to that. So we have Eliza living with the Turners. So she's the servant.

[Maddie]

Yeah, we do. And she's gonna be accused of attempted murder of the entire family when they become ill. And the trial, we're gonna look very deeply at the trial because the trial and the aftermath become hugely problematic and society is really stripped down the middle. We are going to see in this moment there's huge class tensions across Britain. And this comes at a really delicate moment. So we have to decide if Eliza's done it, if she's guilty. But also to put this case in particular into the context. It's a very specific context in which this happens.

[Anthony]

And you mentioned there about having to have this conversation about what is happening legally, what has happened in the. In the details of this case. As far as I understand, these were conversations that were being had in 1815 as well. So this is the long, ongoing conversation in many ways.

[Maddie]

Yeah, we are having the same conversation that people themselves were having in 1815. To give you a little bit of the context to understand when this story is taking place. The way that you can frame this is that the attempted murder, so called, and the trial take place either side of the Battle of Waterloo. Ever heard of it?

[Anthony]

Abba? Waterloo, yes. That's all you need to know. I don't care about any of the rest of it. I'm so sick of hearing about military history all the time. Like, whatever. Like, if you. It's fine, it's Abba, just Abba. This is when Abba released Waterloo 1850.

[Maddie]

Had no impact on world history. Like, we don't need to know about it. It's fine. So the attempted murder and the trial happen in spring 1815, just before the battle. And the ending of this story, when we get to. It happens in July. So just after the battle. Now, why is the Battle of Waterloo important? Despite.

[Anthony]

Okay, no, tell me, tell me, tell me. I'm just being bratty.

[Maddie]

It is important because soldiers who have fought in a battle are now returning to Britain. A lot of them are injured. They have left the army. They are becoming part of the working poor, if they are physically able to work. So there's this influx of people into the working classes now. Class tension, as we've said, is already rife in this period. We've got the Industrial Revolution, which has begun 50 years ago, 60 years ago at this point. It's growing all the time. In industrial places like Leeds, for example, or Manchester. The population of those towns is growing and growing and growing all the time. We've heard this in previous episodes when we did the Luddites, for example. People who have previously lived in the countryside and worked in little cottage industries are now migrating to towns. So they're leaving behind work that they would be doing in the countryside, including farming, creating stuff for the food supply and now they're going to work in factories. And that combined with famine, with poor crop yield, means that there are food shortages. So there are food riots all across the north of England and I think some of the west country as well. There are protests about the costs of food, there's resentment, there's bad wages, bad working cond that people are up against. In 1819 we're going to get the Peterloo massacre. Leading into the 1820s and 30s we've got the Chartist movement, Right. So there is not only tension in terms of class structure but also pushback against those people in charge. Throughout the 1790s in Britain we've had incredible tension and worry about revolution in Britain. So this is a tense time is what I'm trying to say.

[Anthony]

So this is the context of what's going on. Now let's talk about. This is genuinely who I am kind of fascinated about. So it's Eliza Fenning. Tell me a little bit more about her. Apart from her status as a servant, what do we actually know about her?

[Maddie]

So we know a reasonable amount actually.

[Anthony]

Because of the trial?

[Maddie]

I'm assuming because of the trial. This is always the way, isn't it? So she's a 22 year old domestic servant in 1815. She is the daughter of a journeyman printer, so respectable working class, working in the city. She is literate according to the trial records, which I suppose would domestic servants have had some level of literacy potentially by this point? Yeah, I'm thinking she works as a cook in this household, so she's going.

[Anthony]

To need to read recipes, write orders.

[Maddie]

Exactly, exactly. So maybe she's not and her father's in the chat, sitting down and reading. Yeah, exactly. She's maybe not sitting down and reading the full works of Shakespeare. Who's got the time for that? But yes, she is able to read and write now. She also, as we'll hear later on, has a flood of support that rushes to her when she's accused of this crime and people come out to give positive references and character references to say that she is a really good person and trustworthy person. So that is. It means quite a lot of information about someone who is a servant in a household in this moment. She's also one of 10 children. Nine of her siblings die in infancy.

[Anthony]

Wow.

[Maddie]

She's the only surviving child of her parents. Bear that in mind as well because I think that is so poignant when we hear the end of the story. Interestingly, she's also born in the West Indies, so her father was stationed out in the West Indies as an nco, a non commissioned officer in the British army. And her mum. We love an Irish person creeping in here.

[Anthony]

Finally, I care.

[Maddie]

HE BREATHES A SIGH OF RELIEF yeah, Her mother was from County Cork, so I think that's a fascinating backstory and one that speaks to, you know, we've already had the Battle of Waterloo. We've got these hints of not only industrialization in Britain, but this big empire, this global warfare going on with the French. And now we have Eliza's story, even though her story is so tiny and taking place in this one house in Chancery Lane, actually, she speaks to this much bigger British Empire as well.

[Anthony]

And we have this image which we won't dwell too long on, but it's her after she's been arrested for this spoiler. She gets arrested and she's in a cell and she's looking very evangelical there. Although it's a strange depiction. Can you imagine why I'm saying that? I feel like I want you to say it rather than me saying it. Why do you think I'm saying this is a strange depiction?

[Maddie]

She is looking quite evangelical and I think this speaks again to this tension. Some people were on her side, some people weren't. Right after she was accused. So she's in a prison cell and there's these beams of light coming through the prison bars and falling on her face. She's reading the Bible and looking off into the distance of the room quite wistfully. But the depiction of her person, I think, is very, very interesting. We've talked before about the depiction of femininity.

[Anthony]

Okay.

[Maddie]

In terms.

[Anthony]

We're on the same page in terms.

[Maddie]

Of murder, murderous women. She.

[Anthony]

I mean, look, I just didn't want to be the one to say.

[Maddie]

I'm just gonna say her boobs have been put on with an ice cream scoop.

[Anthony]

Right. I was like, now look, my bread is buttered on the other side. I'm not interested in this, but that is a busty image of a woman in 1815.

[Maddie]

Yeah. And a kind of not very naturalistic one. They're like, they're there, they're grim, they're very much there, they're very present. I will also say, and I don't know if you agree with this, but we've talked as well before. I'm just thinking about the fact that her mother is Irish and I don't know how Much that leans into the press at the time. But we've talked before about the depiction of Irish people, especially Irish criminals or people accused of crimes as having quite Irish coded faces.

[Anthony]

Yes.

[Maddie]

And I think that's what I'm seeing here as well.

[Anthony]

Her face looks quite masculine.

[Maddie]

Yes. And that kind of wideness that you get in terms of depictions of Irish people in this moment. There's a lot of sort of contemporary coding going on, I think, and a lot of different versions of her that are being represented. Right. She's so many different things to so many different people.

[Anthony]

Even in this one image. You can say that.

[Maddie]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Anthony]

Let's talk very quickly then about who's in the house. So we have Eliza. Well, she's in the house, but who are the people that she's serving?

[Maddie]

Okay. So we have the head of the household. There's some great names in this family. The head of the household is called Robert Gregson Turner. He's a law stationer. Don't forget, we're in the legal district here in London. So he literally provides stationery to legal firms. But he's also involved in drafting contracts.

[Anthony]

Right, he's doing quite well for himself then.

[Maddie]

Yes, Very, very respectable. We also have his wife Charlotte. Don't know any more information about her other than her name. We then have Robert Turner Jr. The son, of course, who is around about 17 or 18 years old at this time. We then have Robert's father, who is called Haldibart and sometimes Orlebar Turner.

[Anthony]

Oh, wow, that's amazing.

[Maddie]

I need to know what the origin of these names are. They're incredible. We also have some other servants. Right. So we have Sarah Pier, who is a domestic servant in the household. I'm guessing she's maybe like the sort of maid who's doing maid of all work. We also have Robert Gadson, who, like Robert Jr. Is 17 or 18 years old, but he's apprenticed to Robert Senior, the father. And then we have Eliza, who's hired as a cook. And immediately. Well, almost immediately, she doesn't quite fit into the family. There are some tensions that emerge.

[Anthony]

Okay. You're talking about these tensions. And these tensions are going to become very important as this case goes on. I would almost hazard to say too important, because it really is what starts to make this feel very personal. But tell us a little bit about the early tensions that are in the house.

[Maddie]

Yes. So much is made of this. And you have to remember that in an 18th century household. I know we're in the 19th century here, but we're in the long 18th.

[Anthony]

Century in a Georgian household.

[Maddie]

In a Georgian household, the relationship between masters and servants is so intimate. You're living in the same space. And I think because of period dramas, we imagine a great formality at all times and a separateness. And of course, that's not necessarily the reality. Right. You would.

[Anthony]

Especially if you're not in a country house.

[Maddie]

Exactly. If you are in a London townhouse that is reasonably sized but not huge, you are living cheek by jowl with people who are not your social class. If you're the employer, you have an expectation of their behavior and if they don't meet that, you're going to get frustrated. But equally, the servants are going to see sides of you that you do not present outside of that house. So there's always room for tension. And I think you would be hard pressed to find a house in London in this period that didn't have tension between masters and servants.

[Anthony]

And it's one of those reasons why they were referred to as family. When heads of households referred to their family unit in this time period, they. And I always think that's really fascinating. They did not have the same concept of the household family that we have today because of that.

[Maddie]

Well, who is under your roof?

[Anthony]

Who is under your roof, basically. And so that's a really important and intimate relationship, despite social classes, despite not having been born into that family. It's intense.

[Maddie]

Yeah. And also that as a servant, you are expected to behave in a way that respects and brings credit to that family. And if you don't, you are not playing as a team member. Right. So we have testimony from Eliza's trial at the Old Bailey from Charlotte Turner, who is the wife of Robert. She's the mistress of the household. And I want you to read her words because I think this is a fascinating moment that gives an insight into the household and how some of those maybe transgressive behaviours might be observed and spied by that kind of relationship between master and servant.

[Anthony]

This is from the testimony of the eventual trial that we will come to. But this foregrounds that. So Charlotte says I had okay occasion to reprove her, for I observed her one night go into the young men's room partially undressed. It was very indecent of her to go into the young men's room thus undressed. We are really going for this undressed thing, aren't we? There were two young men about 17 or 18 years old. I reproved her. Again, this word reproved and undressed is coming up again. And Again, I reproved her severely next morning for her conduct for the remaining month. I observed that she failed in the respect that she before paid me and appeared extremely sullen. And a fortnight before the poisoning, she requested me to let her make some yeast dumplings, professing herself to be a capital hand. That request was frequently repeated. Hmm, interesting.

[Maddie]

Yeah. So there's a besmirchment of Eliza's character already. She says she's just going to get a candle from the boys room. Interesting that the boys, being the apprentice and the son of the household, sharing the same mood. So it tells you this isn't necessarily a very high class household. You know, these two boys are a different social class, are sharing a space together. But either way, Eliza has no business going into their room undressed here, presumably stripped down to nightwear.

[Anthony]

Yeah, I was gonna say she's not.

[Maddie]

Like walking around in a bra and knickers.

[Anthony]

No, don't come at me.

[Maddie]

Tell me there's no bra and knickers in 1815, please. What do you wear to bed? I feel like. I feel like I have formal stripy pyjamas done up to the top.

[Anthony]

I have a Victorian night shirt, of course, I genuinely do, and I don't wear it in bed, but I wear it of an evening because I don't like to be constrained in beds too much. But this is a detail I never.

[Maddie]

Thought I'd be sharing on this wee willy winky nightcap as well.

[Anthony]

But I like to be quite like, free. Free.

[Maddie]

Do you like the breeze?

[Anthony]

But also up here, rather than concentrating too far down and it's Victorian night shirt, to answer your question. And let's stop it. There's.

[Maddie]

Let's not go any further down that road. Okay.

[Anthony]

So I do genuinely have that, though.

[Maddie]

I will be requesting pictures after this. Okay. So what we have to establish now is, is this moment between Eliza and Charlotte when Charlotte is accusing Eliza of inappropriately dressing, going into the boys room at night, maybe being, you know, some sort of suggestion of sexual impropriety taking place. Is that enough of a motive?

[Anthony]

Do you want me to answer that right now?

[Maddie]

What are your thoughts at this second?

[Anthony]

Absolutely not.

[Maddie]

Okay.

[Anthony]

I mean, servants are being told off all the time. Yeah, like, that wouldn't be like, well, now I'm gonna have to kill them.

[Maddie]

Also by Charlotte's own omission. And this, I suppose, comes down to whether you think she's gonna poison the dumplings. We'll get to that in a minute. But Eliza's reaction. Yeah, she's a bit Stroppy. She says she's sullen afterwards. I mean, you would be a bit put out if your mistress was, like, slut shaming you for walking around in your pajamas. But she then tries to make things better by saying, I'll cook you a really nice meal. I'm really good at dumplings. Can I make dumplings?

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's quite sweet, actually. Well, depending on how you're looking at it.

[Maddie]

Is she just trying to make up for that tension? Who knows? Okay, so what we do know is that on 21st March, 1815, Eliza makes these dumplings. And she's not just feeding people just dumplings, by the way. This is. This is such a stodgy meal. Beefsteak pie, dumplings and potatoes that.

[Anthony]

A lot of carbohydrates.

[Maddie]

I feel, like, full just listening to that. No, thank you. I love a dumpling. And we're not talking about, like, Chinese dumplings here. We're talking about, like, flour and fat.

[Anthony]

Suet or whatever, isn't it? Yeah. I don't love stew, so therefore I don't love them.

[Maddie]

But see, as an autumnal queen.

[Anthony]

No. Well, I know I should like it. Chicken pie.

[Maddie]

Yes. Soup. This is my season that we're coming into. So she makes this meal alone in the kitchen, but that's not unusual. She's the cook. Of course she's alone in the kitchen. That's fine. She then serves the meal to the family, and importantly, Eliza eats some of it herself.

[Anthony]

Yeah. What else is she gonna do?

[Maddie]

Exactly. Not sat with the family, of course.

[Anthony]

But it would be suspicious if she didn't.

[Maddie]

Yes.

[Anthony]

Yeah, but she's eating it, so therefore I'm not suspicious at this point.

[Maddie]

Now, the next piece of testimony that we have from the trial comes from Robert Turner, the head of the household. And he talks about the effect of this food is instantaneous.

[Anthony]

So this is what Robert Turner says at the old Bailey in 1815. This is his testimony. I was taken ill myself in less than three minutes. Bloody hell. The effect was so violent that I had hardly time to get to the yard before my dinner came up. Sexy. I never experienced anything before like it for violence. All right, Robert, Shall I need to know everything? I was terribly irritated. It was not more than a quarter of an hour until my apprentice, Roger Gadsall, was taken very ill in a similar way to myself. So, Robert, it's no sooner down than it's back up, Essentially.

[Maddie]

Yes. It's pretty instantaneous. And then also Roger the apprentice as well. Does that mean that it's poisoned food. Maybe they all just have a stomach bug.

[Anthony]

She could be a shit cook.

[Maddie]

She might be a shit cook because this is the early 19th century. I've conceded it's the Georgian period. Food hygiene is not what it was. She's cooking something here with meat. She's making these dumplings with milk. There's, you know, all these ingredients that. But any number of those could be off in some way. I will admit it's a pretty immediate reaction from Robert for gone off food.

[Anthony]

Or a gone off ingredient. You would imagine it would take a little bit longer.

[Maddie]

But like I say, maybe they're just all ill anyway and they sit down to eat and that triggers them to citrus.

[Anthony]

Because it's a heavy stoddy.

[Maddie]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So the jury's still out for me, anyway, they all become ill, including Eliza, importantly.

[Anthony]

But nobody dies. And this is what you were saying earlier, right? Nobody. It's really important to remember in this case that goes to trial that nobody is dead.

[Maddie]

All that's happened is some vomiting and suddenly the servants at the Old Bailey.

[Anthony]

So how on earth do we get there?

[Maddie]

Okay, so the grandfather. Halt.

[Anthony]

I'm not trusting him with anything, but go on.

[Maddie]

Great villain name.

[Anthony]

Well, not because of his name, because of his age.

[Maddie]

Oh, wow.

[Anthony]

This is like the granddad is just going, I think that she's killed. You're like, come on.

[Maddie]

That hussy who walks around in her pajamas. Yeah. So he starts to be suspicious. Now. He does notice that the knives and forks that they ate with have blackened. They are silver knives and forks, and silver does blacken if arsenic is present. But is it just that one of the servants hasn't polished them?

[Anthony]

They wouldn't be black, though, would they, if they haven't been polished properly?

[Maddie]

I mean. No, it's not the most convenient of the.

[Anthony]

Okay, hold on now.

[Maddie]

So he actually keeps. And I think this is suspicious. He keeps arsenic in his office.

[Anthony]

Who does? Grandad.

[Maddie]

And he. Yeah, and he notices it's missing, so.

[Anthony]

Right. But he only notices after everybody's been sick. Is Granddad sick?

[Maddie]

Yeah, everyone's sick.

[Anthony]

Everyone okay?

[Maddie]

Yeah. Yeah. So we have his words now from the trial. If you'd like to read these. This to me becomes really interesting because it's kind of. It feels like early forensics, and we've talked about early forensics a lot on this program. There's a kind of detective work that's going on here, but I do think that there are holes in it potentially.

[Anthony]

So this is his. This is granddad's testimony.

[Maddie]

This is Granddad Haldibart's testimony.

[Anthony]

I had suspicion of arsenic. I made a search the next morning. I found a brown dish or a pan that the dumplings had been mixed in with the leavings of the dumplings in it. I put some water into the pan and stirred it up with a spoon. God is going to great depths here. With a view to form a liquid of the whole, I found upon the pan being set down for half a minute, upon my taking it up slowly and in a slanting direction, I discovered a white powder at the bottom. I showed it to several persons in the house. I kept it in my custody and showed it to Mr. Marshall when he came, which I'm presuming is some kind of a law enforcement person or something.

[Maddie]

We'll get to him in a second.

[Anthony]

No person had access to it. Well, that's not entirely true because he had access to it. I'm just gonna say every person he showed it to.

[Maddie]

I don't think Haldibart has ever set foot in the kitchen before this moment. He's like, I stirred it in a slanting direction.

[Anthony]

It's like, oddly specific in there. I'm suspicious of Granddad.

[Maddie]

Yeah, exactly. Also, if everyone's been ill, all of the implements in the kitchen that we used to make this have just been sat there for anyone to tamper with.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Maddie]

I mean, I'm not saying Lyza didn't do it, but I don't think this would necessarily stand up in court today.

[Anthony]

I think, like, that blackening of the silverware is interesting. Okay, you have me thinking there. I don't know what this man is doing that like, whatever performance he's decided to carry out as his one man show for the Edinburgh Fringe Line. That's great. But it is elaborate. And I don't think it's going to imagine going and seeing that at the fridge, but the knives and forks are weird that that's gone black.

[Maddie]

Okay, so Mr. Marshal, who is mentioned is.

[Anthony]

Oh, he's the doctor.

[Maddie]

Okay. He is the family doctor. He comes, he's called, he does his own tests. And again, we're like hours, if not a day or so after this has happened. Now, he claims that he recovers half a teaspoon of arsenic from the leftovers. Half a teaspoon worth not literally something he can scoop up.

[Anthony]

Right?

[Maddie]

Yes.

[Anthony]

Granddad's put this in. I don't know why he has, but Granddad's put this in because this is not.

[Maddie]

This doesn't seem they'd be Dead. They'd all be dead. They would all be dead. Now, Eliza says the dumplings were not to blame because that's her speciality, right?

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddie]

She doesn't want her dumpling rep to be besmirched. Instead, she says it's the milk that went into the sauce. That's the issue. She says it was bad milk. I don't know what happened, but it's made everyone sick.

[Anthony]

But this is kind of what I'm saying. This seems like the more likely version. Like often go for the most likely thing, right? Like what's most likely to have happened here?

[Maddie]

Well, that's the milk. If the milk was off to normal people who haven't got a skewed sense of smell, surely that would instantly make you go, huh, disgusting. There's a world in which the milk was just rank. They consumed it and instantly thought, oh God.

[Anthony]

Yes, true, it was an instant reflux thing, at least for dad or whatever his name is, Robert.

[Maddie]

But obviously Eliza has no power in this household. She's the lowest common denominator. As the cook, she's accused of murder. There's the evidence that there was arsenic in the house. And according to the very respectable family doctor and the grandfather that was in the food, even though it's a completely unreasonable amount to find.

[Anthony]

And by the way, arsenic being in this household, not unusual at this time.

[Maddie]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Also, there's, you know, she's been going in the boy's bedroom.

[Anthony]

She has.

[Maddie]

She's pretty dodgy.

[Anthony]

That equals murder.

[Maddie]

It's obviously a crime that's worth killing someone over. So she is arrested and she goes to trial at the ARD Bailey.

[Anthony]

That's crazy. That is wild.

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[Maddie]

You had no one to speak up on your behalf in this moment. If you were accused of something like this, then you know, or you were accused of stealing something or of sexual impropriety in a household, that'd be you out on the street. You don't get a second chance. And in Eliza's case, this is gonna take her potentially all the way to the gallows. It's incredibly serious. And I do feel sorry for her in this moment.

[Anthony]

Yeah, I do. I mean, you're going to the I mean, she will never have imagined herself being in the Old Bailey like this is.

[Maddie]

That is not a secret. She would even be able to imagine yeah. Let alone expect to find herself.

[Anthony]

This is where she is.

[Maddie]

She.

[Anthony]

We know from previous episodes that there is no definition offence offered here, although by this time there could have been. So by the time you get into the early 19th century, there were such things as lawyers that would be appearing in court for you, not for people legalizing. She's not availing of that.

[Maddie]

Yeah. And exactly. So the whole trial hinges on oral testimony. Right. Pro and against her. In this situation, most of the oral testimony is coming from her employers who all believe that she has poisoned them.

[Anthony]

Tried to kill them.

[Maddie]

Yeah. And, you know, this is a moment when 200 plus crimes can end in the death penalty. This is the, you know, the bloody code is still very much in existence. So this is a really serious mirror. It's not looking good for her at all. However, the case brings huge public attention and the majority of the working class public believe Eliza is innocent. They just can't see a world in which she's done this. And, you know, thinking back to those class tensions that are taking place, there's that whole idea of pushing back against the people in charge and asserting yourself as a working class person like never before, and the sort of resentment about that oppression and what that looks like and what your future might look like.

[Anthony]

They know firsthand what it's like to occupy that space in those households and how they're treated and how they're viewed and how they're a lot of the time viewed with suspicion. And that having these servants is a sign of your place in society, but it also then injects this unease into your very household where you're supposed to feel most at ease. And it really looks like this is part of that tension unraveling right before everybody's eyes at the Old Bailey.

[Maddie]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, from the other perspective, if you are an employer of servants in your household, we always talk about this when we've done these episodes on servants who commit crimes. There is someone in your house who might murder you. Yeah, that's pretty frightening. So this captures the attention of middling people as well, for the exact opposite reason that it does the working class people. So what happens now? And I think this is just so shocking, but unfortunately, so familiar to us today, is that the Turners really start this smear campaign both within and beyond the trial itself. Right. So we've already heard about Eliza potentially going into the boy's bedroom, the son of the household and the apprentice. We now hear Robert Jr, the son in that room, talking about how Eliza came in. Maybe More than once, she was inappropriately dressed. In some versions, she's naked. She's exposing herself to the boys.

[Anthony]

She's getting worse and worse.

[Maddie]

She's being sexually suggestive with them. So they are absolutely shaming her. Yes. Smearing her name, trying to spread this idea that she's kind of, you know, thinking back to the depiction of her femininity. Right. She's kind of the absolute opposite of an ideal female in this moment. She's not polite. She's not respectable. She's sort of voracious in her sexual appetites and possibly dangerous.

[Anthony]

I mean. And you say shaming her. Here's the thing. If she did go in looking for a candle, you know, okay, she might have been wearing a nightdress or whatever. That's not unheard of. People are doing that. You know, that's not a weird, weird thing to do. Okay. Charlotte may not approve of it, but it's not the worst thing that could possibly happen morally in the house.

[Maddie]

You know, there's so many different versions of this, though, right? Like, there's a version in which potentially Eliza is having a consensual sexual relationship with one of the boys potentially. And, you know, fine, good luck to her. There's a world in which it is not consensual. And we don't know, you know, Eliza has no power in that household, let's not forget. And there are two boys who are 17, 18 years old with more power. Certainly Robert Jr. Is the son. We don't know what's happening there. We don't know if she's been coerced into something. Maybe she never set foot in their bedroom. Maybe this is all lies invented in.

[Anthony]

The same way that to me, at least, it appears the arsenic is either planted or invented. I mean, it seems like it's a conspiracy theorist, but it's all very, very strange. But it's. But one of the things which I suppose is good at least, and we are left with a little bit, is that Eliza does offer a defense of herself to a certain extent.

[Maddie]

Good. In that she says her truth, she speaks her truth, whatever that is, whether we believe it or not. She says, you know, she ate the food as well, that she became sick, but also that she warned Robert, the son, not to eat the food because the rest of the family became sick. So he actually didn't get sick. Robert's out there saying, she's horny. She keeps coming into my bedroom. And she was like, robert, don't eat this. I'm saving you. Everyone else is sick. Don't get poorly. So screw Robert, first of all. Now, this is genuinely tragic. So think back to the fact that Eliza is one of ten siblings, but nine of them died. You know, she was born out in the West Indies and her parents eventually make it back to Britain with her. This one surviving child, her parents are present at the trial. They're called Elizabeth and William. And William, this honestly breaks my heart. He submits a written statement about his daughter's character, saying what a good person she is that should never do this. And the court refused to accept that, presumably because of his social class and standing in. Because, let's be honest, they've already made up their mind about her.

[Anthony]

Yeah, but they don't refuse to hear bloody random Roberts saying that she's wanton or whatever.

[Maddie]

Exactly. And Elizabeth even says, this is the mother of Eliza, says that Eliza. She confirms Eliza became ill after eating the dumplings. So they're trying so hard to protect their daughter, they're offering all this evidence. They're saying she's a great person. The one person that we haven't heard from much, though, is Eliza. And we do have her words from the trial. And this is what she says at the Old Bailey when she gets her moment to stand up. She says, I am innocent of the crime. I am not guilty. I wouldn't hurt a hair on anyone's head in the family, much less poison their food. Do we believe her?

[Anthony]

It's hard, isn't it? Because, I mean, that's what you'd expect her to say, but doesn't mean it's any less true.

[Maddie]

I mean, honestly, the way the family have behaved. Good luck to her if she did poison them at this point. But I don't think that she did.

[Anthony]

I don't think that's a great account of oneself at the trial. But what else can she do? She is very constrained by the ways in which these trials come about.

[Maddie]

Presumably she's not given that much time to speak.

[Anthony]

No. I mean, all of this will have been over in 30 minutes. Totally.

[Maddie]

You would need to stand up and be like, it's not me, I didn't do it.

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah. It needs to be really straightforward. Exactly. So she does want to. What she needs to do, but I just don't see it. I just don't see that it's there. The only thing, and this is fanciful, so therefore I don't even think this is real. The only thing that's in my head is if there was something going on between her and the son and she then Gives all the rest of the family this poison. They all die. He doesn't. And she's like, oh, you don't eat that again. It seems very fanciful. It's very period drama coded. So I. Therefore, it feels like it's not real, but I'm just putting it out there as a potential option where.

[Maddie]

But don't forget, she gets ill herself.

[Anthony]

She says she gets ill herself, or her parents who are not there, say she gets ill herself again.

[Maddie]

Presumably they see her in the days afterwards. Maybe.

[Anthony]

Maybe. Either way, I think I'm still Team Eliza. But I'm just saying for the sake of argument, there is a world in which that's a story.

[Maddie]

There's not black and white here. No, I do think there is a gray area, but I think the way that she is treated and it's so tied to her social class, her lack of power, the fact she's a woman, you know, her sexuality, all of these things.

[Anthony]

Yeah, no, I still. I don't see. I think the way this is unfolding is ridiculous.

[Maddie]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it does, unfortunately, unfold in the worst way possible. So the judge, who is known as a hanging judge, so someone who loves a little bit of hanging is called John Sylvester. Also famously misogynistic, biased against. Women. Love that. For him, he says the worst. He condemns her to death. And there are some suggestions in some of the commentary around this case that he actually colludes with the doctor, Dr. Marshall, to emphasize that evidence of the arsenic being there, more so than is maybe relevant or truthful. So, you know, interesting. But I mean, Eliza never stood a chance anyway. So here are the judge's words. He says that these persons were poisoned. Appears certain. I think, like, first of all, off the bat. No. Each of these persons ate of the dumplings and were all more or less affected. More or less affected. Doing a lot of heavy lifting.

[Anthony]

But also not all, because Robert wasn't Robert Jr.

[Maddie]

Exactly. And also, nobody died. The poisonous ingredient was in the dough alone. It was observed that the dough appeared dark and was heavy and in fact, did never rise. Well, first of all, dumplings don't really. Like, they're stodgy. They're not. It's not puff pastry, guys. These men who are like, never been in the kitchen, never made anything, and.

[Anthony]

They'Re like, suddenly, I'm an expert on dumplings.

[Maddie]

Is this MasterChef? Like, what's going on here? Awful. The jury deliberates for 30 minutes, and they come back, and inevitably they say that she's guilty and she is Sent to the gallows. She's hanged on the 26th of July at Newgate Prison.

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[Maddie]

So there's an absolutely enormous crowd who comes to see this. And we do have an eyewitness account of the execution by William Hone. This is written in a pamphlet that is all about Eliza, you know, a classic early 19th century pamphlet that tells the story from birth to death of a criminal. Along with the picture that we discussed earlier that's from the same pamphlet. So William Hone absolutely has skin in the game here. Like he's wanting to sell copy. But do you mind reading the words? Because I think it gives a sense of this event.

[Anthony]

So William says, I got into an immense crowd that carried me along with them against my will. At length I found myself under the gallows where Eliza Fenning was to be hanged. I had the greatest horror of witnessing an execution, and of this particular execution, a young girl of whose guilt I had grave doubts. But I could not help myself. I was closely wedged in. She was brought out. I saw nothing, but I heard all. I heard her protesting her innocence. I heard the prayer. I could hear no more. I stopped my ears and knew nothing else. Till I found myself in the dispersing crowd and far from that dreadful spot. Now, come on, William.

[Maddie]

William's getting paid per word.

[Anthony]

Calm yourself down. You went to see someone getting hanged? Like, let's not try.

[Maddie]

Also classic 19th century man of like. I didn't want to see the execution of this really cute young girl, but I was forced along and everyone else was going and I thought I should probably go for moral reasons. And as I was in a journal.

[Anthony]

I got dragged along against my will.

[Maddie]

I was just. I popped out for some milk and I just traggled onto this. So we have her death and this moment where she's supposedly protesting her innocence. I mean, that's again, not unusual. People get up on the gallows and, you know, say, I didn't do this, blah, blah, I'm going to God. You know, all that stuff is kind of what you would expect. Again, tragedy creeps in, though, because we know from our various episodes on body snatching that the law at this time was that if you were an executed murderer and she's executed for attempted murder, so I assume her body would be legitimate as going to the anatomist's lab. I guess to prevent this, her parents. Her parents who've lost now their 10th child pay. They have to borrow 14 shillings and sixpence to pay the executioner to get her body back.

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddie]

I just find that so sad. They have a wake at their house which lasts five days.

[Anthony]

Oh, wow.

[Maddie]

And even in death, the crowds are so interested in this case that thousands come to see her.

[Anthony]

So she's becoming kind of working class martyr.

[Maddie]

She's absolutely a martyr. Yes. She's a martyr for the mob, essentially. And she becomes this figure of, you know, the oppression of the upper classes. The police force at the time, police, I'm using that term as anachronistic. But the authorities at the time try and stop the crowds from getting in to see the body. That's how much power she has now. The funeral happens after these five days of the wake. 10,000 people turn up, including women from all across the city who wear white.

[Anthony]

Oh, we love a bit of drama. Good.

[Maddie]

I like this. I mean, this is cinematic. Here's your period drama. I think this is incredible. It's debated for years and years and years afterwards. Is it an example of a miscarriage of justice and class prejudice? Or did she get what she deserved in the context of the legal system at the time, was justice served because she had tried to kill the family?

[Anthony]

I don't think she did it.

[Maddie]

I feel that she didn't. But are we getting sucked into the working class propaganda of this moment, in this wider movement of feeling hard done by that resentment, the resistance?

[Anthony]

Maybe. I'll tell you what did it for me, what made me go, I don't know what's going on here, but it's not that. It's that granddad's testimony thing. Like, I held this thing at a 45 degree angle. To the sun, which was coming in at a 40.

[Maddie]

And I was like, I blew across it twice.

[Anthony]

Yeah. Like, what are you talking about, you fool? Like, stop it. Stop being so extra. Like, it's too much. It makes me a little bit angry, actually.

[Maddie]

Yeah. And I think as well, this case has this really intimate personal setting, and then it has this kind of wider societal setting, and we don't really know a lot about the people involved in the case beyond this point. So what we do know is that in 1829, so just over a decade later, Eliza's father is described as being heartbroken, still living in London. But he's absolutely broken by this, as you can imagine. The mother is as well. Elizabeth. The Turners, though, the Turner family, who are poisoned or so called, disappear from public view. But we do know that their grandpa Haldibart is declared bankrupt in 1825.

[Anthony]

Stop. Granddad comes back, okay. He's declared bank. How old is he in 1815 that he's bankrupt by 1850? 1825. So, like, until 10 years later, he's not that much of a granddad.

[Maddie]

Baby's young in this moment.

[Anthony]

So he wasn't that old in 1815 then.

[Maddie]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

Okay, interesting. I mean, declare bankrupt. I don't wish the man ill, but, like, I don't know, it's just all a bit weird, isn't it? And it's weird that we know a bit about him and he, for me, is the sticking point. I'm just like, all right, you're still lingering around there. Yeah. And it just then it begs the question, like, what level of control had he over the household? As the most senior male, you would imagine that that control may have passed to his son or whatever, but you just never know.

[Maddie]

Well, clearly his words had an effect in the case. They shaped the direction that it took very, very quickly.

[Anthony]

I think I had a picture of a much, much older, doddery old man in my head. But now that you're saying 10 years later, he has to be declared bankrupt, that means he probably wasn't like that at all. So I don't know. He's suspicious for me in this. I don't know why he would frame her, but, like, base question as well.

[Maddie]

Of what was the financial impact on that family, that household, post trial? Were they pushed out of the house? Did they lose their job?

[Anthony]

Yeah. What was the impact on the guy? We don't want them. Yeah, yeah.

[Maddie]

It just seems like a strange. It's a strange detail, the bankruptcy.

[Anthony]

Yeah. Especially when we know so little that that's the detail that does survive.

[Maddie]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

It's like, yeah.

[Maddie]

So what do you think? Did Eliza do it or not? Let us know.

[Anthony]

I was like, who are you talking to? The camera. Okay. She talked.

[Maddie]

We're currently making a podcast. We are talking. Yeah.

[Anthony]

Yeah. She looked over there and I went, there's nobody over there. She's lost the run of herself. No, it's a camera. Okay.

[Maddie]

Do you want to wrap up?

[Anthony]

Yeah, I will. Because I feel like I should because I just let you carry the weight of this one because I lost. So apologies for and are you feeling.

[Maddie]

Less sick or more.

[Anthony]

I feel more sick, actually. I really do. My tummy is cramping now. Not because of this. I just think it's where we are in the day. Look, it's fine. I only have another six months of this. So thank you so much for listening to After Dark and for putting up with my mood swings. We will see you again next time. But but if you have any suggestions for episodes, please remember to drop us an [e-mail] we do not see everything on socials. We miss those things. If you go to the history hit socials, people are not necessarily getting all of those. So the only way to tell us about your episode suggestions is through after darkstoryhit.com if you've enjoyed this episode and the chaos that ensued, then leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maddie]

Goodbye.

[Anthony]

Thank you.

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