← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
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- [00:01]
Tracy Borman
You know, as a busy mom, there are lots of ways you can help yourself fall asleep. You could stare blankly at the ceiling and replay every conversation you've ever had. Count sheep, have a debate with your pillow, Give up caffeine. Try acupuncture and buy a weighted blanket that will make you sweat profusely. Or you could try some milk, which has nutrients that support healthy sleep. Visit gonnaneedmilk.com for more info. And for everyone's sake, please don't give up caffeine.
- [00:30]
Austin James
Hey, it's Austin James. Yes, I'm living with diabetes, but it doesn't have to define me. Thanks to the freestyle Libre 3 sensor, I get real time glucose readings throughout the day. The Freestyle Libre A3 plus sensor is small and easy to wear, giving me the freedom to focus on my life as a parent and a musician. Now this is progress. You can get a free sensor at FreestyleLibre US offer available for people who qualify.
- [00:52]
Tracy Borman
Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply. Data on File Avid Diabetes Care for prescription only. Safety info found at FreestyleLibre US Osea's.
- [01:01]
Maddie
Limited edition Super Glow Body Set is the perfect gift. It includes three of osea's best selling body care products, so luxurious you'll want to get one for yourself too. But hurry before it sells out. Give the gift of Glow with clean, clinically tested skincare from osea. You can get the Super Glow Body set valued at $106 for $72 plus an additional 10% off when you use code holiday@oseamalibu.com that's O S E malibu.com code holiday a phantom is swirling in the air high above the great city of London, circling round as the doleful bells of Big Ben chime out. It turns and streaks west across the rooftops, past Buckingham palace, over elegant Chelsea and through the quiet, close streets of Hammersmith, over sleeping animals in Richmond park, following the glittering line of the river until it reaches its home, or rather its prison, Hampton Court Palace. 12 miles up stream from central London on the banks of the River Thames, Hampton Court palace holds the history of a nation within its walls. Our phantom glides through heavy stonework, crosses a darkened courtyard and at last enters the corridor. It is doomed to wander. As it paces the floor, a groan rises and becomes a shriek. Something terrible. Impossible. The ghost of Catherine Howard, fifth wife of Henry viii, is back in for the night, one of the many specters that grace this palace. This is after dark, and today we're telling the story of the ghosts of Hampton Court. Who are they? And why do they still haunt its walls?
- [03:36]
Anthony
Hello, and welcome back to After Dark. My name is Anthony.
- [03:40]
Maddie
Oh, I'm Maddie. I'm so excited by the ghost. I've forgotten what's happening.
- [03:43]
Anthony
Maddie's been taken over by the spirit of Catherine Howard. And we are joined once more by our great friend of the show, Dr. Tracy Borman OBE now, shall we say. And Tracy is the author of many bestselling books, the most recent of which is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I, the mother and daughter who changed history. Now, one of the reasons why Tracy is so perfect for this episode specifically is because Hampton Court palace is essentially her office, in a way, because Tracy is the joint chief curator of historic royal palaces, and she is therefore part of the team that's responsible for managing Hampton Court Palace. So this is. This is right up her alley. So do you actually have an office in Hampton Court, Tracy, or are you based elsewhere amongst the other properties?
- [04:32]
Tracy Borman
I have an office in the heart of Tudor Hampton Court. So what I love about working for historic royal palaces is that we obviously get to go through the doors that say private on them, and actually most lead to something like a broom cupboard. They're not that exciting, but just occasionally you find spaces not open to the public that were really quite important. And one of them is the curator's office, apartment 25. They have apartment numbers because they were Grace and Favour apartments from the Victorian period. Apartment 25 is our office, and that happened to be the nursery of Henry VIII's precious son, the future Edward VI. So that's where my desk is in Edward's nursery. Quite like that. Fact.
- [05:18]
Anthony
Stop it. I love that.
- [05:21]
Maddie
Do you ever hear baby cries when you're working? Do you ever hear nurses coming in to tend to someone who's not there?
- [05:28]
Tracy Borman
Well, it's funny. Mention those nurses. I think we may be going on to one of those because she is one of the most famous ghosts at Hampton Court. I have to be honest, I have hoped, I have searched. I have never encountered any of these ghosts. I haven't heard anything. But I have felt something. My only ghostly encounter at hampton Court in 16 years. But I think it's pretty good.
- [05:56]
Anthony
Oh, okay. Right. Let's get into it. But before we get into some of the details of the hauntings, maybe for listeners who are less familiar, you could describe Hampton Court palace and a little bit of its history so we get our bearings.
- [06:08]
Tracy Borman
Of course, Hampton Court is one of the best preserved Tudor palaces in the world, but it's Actually, two palaces. There's also what I call a modern extension built onto it. A baroque palace built by William and Mary at the end of the 1600s. But Hampton Court was originally built by Cardinal Thomas Wolsey. He was the most powerful man in England for a couple of decades during the reign of Henry viii, until he fell from favour and was obliged to give his palace to Henry himself, who really made it his own. So people associate Hampton Court with Henry viii. They think he built it, he didn't, but he certainly enlarged it, adding a spectacular great hall, bowling green, hunting grounds. It was where he went to have fun. And there's still so much of that surviving today.
- [06:59]
Maddie
It's absolutely the Tudor party house to go to.
- [07:02]
Tracy Borman
Say, it's one long party. Being at Hampton Court, even when I'm at work, I absolutely love it.
- [07:07]
Maddie
You heard it here, folks. Tracy does no work in her office. She's just constantly partying. So let's talk about, I think, possibly the most famous ghost associated with the palace. And we heard a little bit, a little mention of her in the introduction, and that is the ghost of Catherine Howard. So, Tracy, just tell me first of all, who Catherine Howard is and then a little bit about her ghost and where she is supposed to appear.
- [07:33]
Tracy Borman
You're absolutely right, Maddie. Catherine Howard is the most famous of the many ghosts at Hampton Court. For good reason, of course. She's a queen of England. So Catherine was the fifth wife, the fifth queen of Henry viii. He fell head over heels in love with her. You could say that she was his midlife crisis. He was more than 30 years older than Catherine at the time of their marriage. She was just a teenager and she was actually a cousin of Anne Boleyn, Henry's second wife, of course, a Howard, a very, very powerful family in Tudor England. Well, like her cousin Anne, Catherine was condemned and executed for adultery. But unlike Anne, I think she was genuinely guilty. Henry married her, believing her to be, as he called her, a rose without a thorn. He believed she was a virgin and she had no past. But that past came back, no pun intended, to haunt her early in the marriage. And characters from her past threatened to blow the whole thing open. And so you sense the sort of gathering doom for poor Catherine. But to make matters worse, she actually had an affair during her marriage to Henry. So it wasn't just the fact she had a past, she had a present. And she began an adulterous liaison with Thomas Culpepper, a member of Henry VIII's household. And nothing remained a secret at the Tudor court. For long. And it all happened at Hampton Court because it was while the King was at prayer in the Chapel Royal that he was told about his young wife's infidelity. I actually love the fact it was poor old Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop, who drew the short straw and was given the task of telling Henry that this young queen he adored was actually betraying him. So he didn't actually tell him in person. He wrote it down and kind of slipped a note in front of Henry and then scarpered from the chapel. And then there was this explosion as Henry was absolutely devastated by Catherine's betrayal, ordered her arrest at Hampton Court. And there begins our story, I think.
- [09:53]
Anthony
And how does her haunting manifest then? Because. And I think this is. Isn't this the area in which you potentially had your own experience? And we'll talk about that, too. But I want to know how her haunting manifests. But I also would love to know how that haunting can tell us something about the history we know about. So how do those two things link up, do you think?
- [10:12]
Tracy Borman
Yes. So the haunting legend really begins with Catherine's arrest. Catherine had been at the Tudor court for long enough to know that if you stand a hope of promotion, survival, you have to have access to the King. This is how it works. You have to be able to reach the King to plead your case, whatever that case might be. So as soon as she hears that she's in trouble, that her adultery has been discovered, she tries to reach the king, her husband, and she's said to have broken free of her guards and ran screaming along what is today called the Haunted Gallery, to reach Henry along that gallery, who is at prayer in the Chapel Royal. So the haunted Gallery, just to orientate our listeners today, is part of the processional route, and it runs from the end of Henry VIII's private apartments all the way through to the chapel. Roya. So Henry would have processed along this kind of corridor several times a day. He was at prayer. Catherine knew she was in trouble. She had to plead with her husband for her life. So she temporarily broke free of her guards and ran screaming along this corridor. But they caught her before she could reach the King and plead for her life. And the rest is history. She would never get that chance. She would never see Henry again. So the legend is that her agonized screams can still be heard along this stretch of the palace at certain times of the night. It's one of the most repeated. I was going to say sightings, hearings. No, what's the word? But people hear this experiences. And people sometimes say that they've seen this ghostly figure running along the gallery. What's really interesting, and what I love about my job and about history in general, is that for so many years I had to disappoint visitors and say, well, you know, it's a nice story, but actually we know where her apartments were and she couldn't possibly have run along this stretch of the palace. It just didn't make sense from where she would have been based, where she was arrested and where she was trying to reach Henry. And then a discovery in recent years by the wonderful historian Gareth Russell, who has not only written about Catherine Howard, he's written basically a biography of Hampton Court. It's a fantastic book. And he discovered, actually the layout was rather different to how we thought it had been, and that Catherine absolutely could have made that journey and very likely did. So whoever first called it the Haunted Gallery was spot on. That's where Catherine, if she did make this dash for mercy, that's where she would have actually gone. So I love that fact.
- [13:06]
Maddie
I love that as well. And I love the idea of this moment of intense emotion being echoed and still haunting that space. And I'm very interested in the ways that history, as we tell it and the practice of doing history and the practice of telling ghost stories where those two things overlap. And I think it's fascinating whether or not you personally believe in ghosts, and often actually, we use the same tools, the same modes of talking about these things. For example, if you think about ghosts, we often associate them with dates in history or events, traumatic moments. And that is also how we tell the past. We talk about battles, we talk about executions, we talk about births, deaths, marriages and all the rest of it. So there is this obvious overlap. But thinking about Hampton Court palace in particular, it's for many decades been the place where people come to learn about history, and you are giving them that history. You're selling that history. Are these ghosts possibly inherited from previous curators, Tracy, who've made up these stories? Because you know you have something to gain here. Do you think that that is an element? And where does your own ghostly experience fit in with that as a curator?
- [14:24]
Tracy Borman
It's a great question. Well, I can certainly say that in my experience at Hampton Court, there's been no invention of ghosts, but that is a valid point. In fact, if anything, we are pushed the other way, or perhaps we take the other way willingly. I'm one of the only members of the curatorial team who likes a good ghost story. Quite a few of My colleagues kind of roll their eyes and say, can we just stick to the history, please? But the Victorians definitely loved a ghost story, and this is where really the legends get going at Hampton Court. Queen Victoria gifted Hampton Court to the Nation in 1838. She threw its doors open to the public, and that was the beginning of its history as a visitor attraction, which, of course, it still is today. And the Victorians loved the macabre. They loved the spirit worlds and sort of Gothic fantasies and horror stories, of course. And really this became an important element of the visitor experience at Hampton Court. And there was a certain historian, in fact, official palace historian, called Ernest Law. He wrote a short history of Hampton court in the 1800s. And that book was quite pivotal because Ernest Law definitely embraced a ghost story or two. And when you look at the merchandise from the Victorian period, they did a roaring trade in postcards showing ghosts in the spaces in the palaces. Now, we can tell they're quite badly superimposed on a picture of the haunted gallery or the Great hall or wherever it might be. And it's very obviously an invented scene, but they sold like hotcakes to these Victorians who just lapped them up. But I do like to look back. I've been on many ghost tours at Hampton Court and I think it's always interesting to just trace the origins. And the stories that always convince me the most are quite often they're our security staff. They work late at night, through the night, and they'll just see something. They don't know about the history of the palace, but they'll see something and they describe it and actually it matches up with someone we know lived in that part of the palace. And, as I say, security guards, you know, not all of some of them are deeply interested in the history, but some of them just don't know that history. And so it hasn't been that. They've just thought, oh, Catherine Howard was there. Oh, did I just see Catherine Howard? They didn't know that history. And they come up with something that actually is quite credible. And they are always the most convincing stories for me.
- [17:07]
Anthony
Speaking of stories and stories that can convince you, tell us about your own experience and if that convinced you.
- [17:14]
Tracy Borman
Yes. So my experience was along the haunted gallery. Now, I didn't hear Catherine Howard's ghost or indeed see her ghost. I was on a late night tour of palace with a friend and the lights were out. I have to say, I keep an open mind. I am definitely not a ghost hunter. I just keep an open mind about it. But we were just walking along the haunted gallery and chatting and we got halfway along and the temperature suddenly plummeted, like in a really extreme way. Not like there was a draft from somewhere. In fact, it was. There was no windows or kind of obvious source of draft anyway. It was like walking into a freezer. That's the only way I can describe it. And we both stopped in our tracks because we both felt it and we looked at each other and then we kind of scarped. We got out of there because it really spooked us. Then it just went as quickly as it had arrived. And we told one of the palace warders and they said, oh, did you? You felt that cold, didn't you? And apparently it's one of the most reported experiences at Hampton Court and nobody's ever been able to find a source for that. I can absolutely promise this is not an invention. I guess these things often happen when you're not expecting. Yes, we were in the palace at night and the lights were off, but we weren't looking for ghosts. We were just chatting and we were on our way home. And that's when it happened. So that was quite something, whatever is going on along the haunted gallery. And perhaps it speaks to what you were saying earlier, Madia, about the emotional connections, but there have been more faintings, more sightings, more audible experiences in that single stretch of the palace than anywhere else. So something's going on.
- [18:59]
Maddie
I think it really grips me. I do find it really, really interesting. I love as well that a lot of the experiences, like you say, it was the temperature change, and for some people, it's hearing this, I suppose you could call it a sort of audible hallucination or an audible specter of some kind. I have one of these old Hampton Court palace postcards that you mentioned from the. It looks to me like it's either from the late Victorian age or maybe Even the early 20th century in front of me. And I just love it so much. And it has none of those intangible, hard to capture elements. But instead we've got this woman in a white dress, presumably Catherine herself, and she's holding her hands up to her face and possibly screaming, and her hair is flying behind her. And it's just this really quite jolly wonderful projection of this ghostly image onto what looks to be like an actual photograph of a space inside the palace itself. And I love those interpretations. And that that was part of the, I suppose, the marketing strategy for the palace, but also part of its history and part of its storytelling genre, its storytelling body of work, I guess. And I love that the ghosts have always been there since their earliest opening to the public.
- [20:12]
Tracy Borman
Yes, and we still embrace that. If you come to Hampton Court in October, we do have a few ghost tours around Halloween. You lean into it, I think is the phrase. That's definitely what we do at the pal.
- [20:42]
Matt Lewis
I'm Matt Lewis, host of the Echoes of History podcast, where every week we'll be delving into the real life history that inspires the locations, characters and storylines of the legendary Assassin's Creed franchise. Join us as we explore the narrow streets of Medici ruled Florence, cross sand dunes in the shadow of ancient pyramids, climb the rigging of 18th century brig, sailing across the Caribbean and come face to face with some of history's most significant individuals. Whether you're a history fan, a gamer, or just someone who loves a good story, Echoes of History is the podcast for you. Make sure to catch every episode by following Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by history. Hit wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:34]
Austin James
Hey, it's Austin James. Yes, I'm living with diabetes, but it doesn't have to define me. Thanks to the Freestyle Libre A three plus sensor, I get real time glucose readings throughout the day. The Freestyle Libre A3 plus sensor is small and easy to wear, giving me the freedom to focus on my life as a parent and a musician. Now this is progress. You can get a free sensor at FreestyleLibre US offer available for people who qualify.
- [21:55]
Tracy Borman
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- [23:02]
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- [23:13]
Tracy Borman
Right?
- [23:13]
Anthony
But let's Lean into another ghost that supposedly haunts the great corridors of Hampton Court Palace. And Maddie is going to take us on another little ghost trip.
- [23:26]
Maddie
Mother. I hear it again, that noise. But what could it be? It's the 1830s and a quiet, quick clicking sound is coming from behind a wall in Hampton Court Palace. By now, the building is no longer home to queens and kings. Instead it's filled with aristocratic families who are down on their luck. These are the so called Grace and favour residents. The Ponsonbys are one such family, living in apartments in the palace. Near the main gate, there's Lady Emily Ponsonby, a widow whose husband had fought courageously at Waterloo, and her six children. At first, Emily's family could not fathom the cause of the strange noises they heard in their rooms. That was until a discovery led them to believe that they were being haunted by a ghost known only as the Grey Lady, AKA Sybil Pennsylvania, wet nurse to Edward vi. Every night they were convinced those quiet, quick clicking sounds were Sybil sitting and spinning at her wheel, her actions echoing down the centuries.
- [24:55]
Anthony
All the wheels have come off now. We've got ladies in walls and we've got all kinds of things going on. But what we also have and why I love these things is we've got a real person and a real history and potentially a real person that we wouldn't otherwise know about. So, Tracey, what do we know about Sybil Penn?
- [25:11]
Tracy Borman
You're right, Anthony, and these are my favourite stories where it's not just the obvious, the queens of England, the executed ones, it's the lesser known servants and actually when the sighting matches up with the actual historical record of this person being at the palace. So the Grey Lady I think she's seen even more often than Catherine Howard and she is believed to be Sybil Penn, who was the wet nurse to King Edward VI. He was born at Hampton Court in 1537 and as we've heard, he was raised at the palace. He had a rather nice nursery which is now the curator's office. Did I mention that? Anyway, Sibyl Penn was his nursemaid. She served in fact for Tudor monarchs and so she's believed to be the owner of that mysterious spinning wheel. Whether actually Sybil used a spinning wheel, not entirely sure, but it's associated with her. It's in a part of the palace that she conceivably could have occupied. But Sybil is a fascinating woman. So after serving Edward, she was a member of the court of his elder sister and later successor, Mary I. And then she also served Mary's successor, another of Henry VIII's children, Elizabeth I. And this is unfortunately, when Sybil met her untimely end, because in 1562, Elizabeth had been queen for just four years when one of the most terrifying diseases of the age arrived at Hampton Court. Not the plague, not the sweat, but smallpox. It was deadly. Survival rates were very low. The new queen herself contracted the disease and everybody thought, that's it, the reign is going to be over after four years. Sybil Penn had served these Tudor monarchs and their children so loyally for decades that she was one of the only women prepared to attend the Queen as she lay on what she believed would be her deathbed. And Sybil faithfully nursed Elizabeth through the illness. And Elizabeth, of course, survived. She lived to tell the tale, although some say she was hideously disfigured by the scars of smallpox, and that's why she wore so much white makeup thereafter. But poor old Sybil contracted the disease whilst nursing Elizabeth through it, and she was not so fortunate as her royal mistress. She died in November 1562. She was buried at nearby St. Mary's Church in Hampton. And there she lay peacefully for almost 300 years, until renovation works at the church were carried out in 1829, disturbing the tomb of Sybil Penn. And thereafter, many sightings of Sybil were reported at the palace. It seems her tomb was disturbed, so was her spirit, and she came back to haunt the place where she had spen much of her working life and where she had died. And it's believed because of where she's seen, because of the age of this ghost, she looks to be quite an old lady, that she is the Grey lady and she was Sybil Penn. And I think it's probably one of my favourite of all the many ghost stories at Hampton Court, because, you know, you can trace it back to source. Whether or not it's too much of a leap to say, hang on, Grey Lady, Sybil Penn. Are we convinced about that? We know Sybil Penn was there. We know that she did die in that outbreak of smallpox early in Elizabeth's reign. And we do know as well that the sightings of this ghost happened very soon after Sibyl's tomb was disturbed nearby Hampton Church. So all very interesting, I think, as.
- [29:16]
Maddie
Anthony says as well, ghosts, whether you believe in them or not, are a fantastic way in to think about the history, in particular, of people who don't survive in the historical record in a comprehensive way. And, you know, you talked there about her being a nurse, a wet nurse, to Four different Tudor monarchs. That's incredibly intimate. It's a bodily relationship, it's a nurturing relationship between this woman and these children who go on to be royals. And the fact that she then nurses Elizabeth in this moment of disease, it takes us into histories of medicine, of intimacy, of bodily experience. It's just the most glorious way in. Whether you buy into the story or not, I just. I love that, that it gives us that door onto the past.
- [30:00]
Tracy Borman
It really does, and introduces us to characters that otherwise might have remained in the shadows. And these women, and indeed men who served the Tudors, they were pivotal, they were their family, effectively, because Tudor infants, royal infants, really spent little time with their parents. At the age of just three months, a royal baby would be sent off to their own household and their servants, such as Sibyl Penn, would become their family, their surrogate family. And yet they're not often given that credit. And there are so many interesting stories to tell. And you do also get a different view of the monarchs as well, and the intimacy of those relationships and what these servants meant to them. Elizabeth once said, and I'm paraphrasing, but she owed more to the women who had brought her up than to her blood relatives, because, of course, her mother was executed when Elizabeth was less than 3, so she had to rely on nursemaids such as Sibyl Penn. And Blanche Parry was another of her servants, Catastley. These were Elizabeth's real family. So ghost stories are, I think, a wonderful way in to explore some of these hidden lives from the palace.
- [31:20]
Anthony
Well, another thing that stopped me in my tracks there, as you were building up to the appearance of Sibyl Penn, was this idea of the Grace and Favour residence at Hampton Court Palace. I didn't know about this. This is the first time hearing of it. So what exactly meant that these unlucky down and out, I don't know. Tell me, who are these aristocrats and how come they're just handed a space in the palace once it's no longer a royal residence?
- [31:47]
Tracy Borman
So these Grace and faithersborough residence, really, to qualify for a kind of retirement home, if you like, at Hampton Court, either you had served in the court in some way or your husband had, you were a widow and your husband had been a courtier or perhaps seen military service, you had to have had some kind of strong connection to the royal court. And so it was really actually earlier than Victoria's reign that Hampton Court was turned over for use in this way and divided up into apartments. So that's why if you visit the palace today, or actually, more accurately, if you work at the palace, you know, rooms by their apartment number. Oh, yeah, that's in apartment 33. We don't tend to call them by. You know, that's the great watching chamber. We'll give it its Grace and Favour residence apartment number because it's less glamorous, but it's easier to navigate. And that's how the palace was divided up. And we've done lots of research. In fact, we have volunteers still working on researching the stories of these Grace and Favour residents, because they are so fascinating and they really open a window into Hampton Court through an age that we're not used to exploring. We tell the Tudors at Hampton Court first and foremost, maybe a bit of the Georgians, just to satisfy you both and. But really it's the Tudors. But then in the Victorian period, it becomes this kind of residence as well as a visitor attraction. And there are some wonderful stories because there's something at Hampton Court known as the little Banqueting house. And it was built by William III for parties. So it's a little standalone building in the grounds of Hampton Court, right by the river. And it's where he had his mates round and they had quite riotous evenings in the little Banqueting house. And he had it decorated with some quite, might I say rude paint on the walls, lots of nudes on the walls. And then you can imagine this was then turned over to a Grace and Favour apartment. And the lady who took it over was horrified and she wrote to the Lord Chamberlain and basically ordered him to paint over all of this filth on the walls. And the Lord Chamberlain had to write back, you know, tail between his legs, say, I'm terribly sorry, but these are kind of important Baroque paintings. We can't. So instead she just positioned her furniture over them and you see nothing but complaint letters from the Grace and Favour residents. It's cold, the paintings are rude, my apartment is damp, and I think, come on, you're living in Hampton Court. How bad can it be? But there is a wonderful social history to the palace.
- [34:28]
Maddie
I was going to ask as well, Tracy, just thinking about that near miss of that woman painting over those pornographic images, and thank goodness that she didn't. But was there a lot of disruption to the building? Because thinking about ghosts, and we've already thought about Sibyl Penn's body being disrupted at the beginning of the 19th century, when the church is being sort of renovated, and we know that the Ponsonbys in their apartment, when they're Grace and Faber residents in the 1830s, around a similar time that they actually find the spinning wheel that they later attribute to being associated with Sybil Penn. They find that in a wall, don't they, in the apartment. Was it normal that the Grace and Favor residents were making these little additions or subtractions to the fabric of the building? Is that hard to trace? And it must have been a nightmare then, it must be a nightmare now for thinking about the validity of the building you've inherited.
- [35:21]
Tracy Borman
Yes. Oh, it is a mishmash, I think is. Yeah, don't quote me on that. As joint chief curator of Hampton Court and the other palaces. But really, when you look at Hampton Court and you see that classic west front of Hampton Court, the red brick, absolute classic Tudor front, Victorian, actually pretty much all Victorian. It looked rather different in the Tudor period. And the Victorians were vandals a lot of the time. Not just the Grace and Favour residents, but the Victorians liked to remedievalise buildings. As they saw it, it didn't quite look Tudor enough. So let's build it and make it look a bit more Tudor. They did the same at the Tower, in fact, to even greater extremes. They, you know, they knocked down 13th century walls at the Tower and built one that looked more medieval and you just say, oh, the horror today. Thank goodness that wouldn't happen today. But these palaces, of course, are still. Can I just reassure listeners, an awful lot of the Tudor palace left at Hampton Court. There are only a few Victorian additions, but that's how you have to see the palace. It's. It's always evolving and it's not all that it appears, I think is a fair way of putting it.
- [36:55]
Matt Lewis
I'm Matt Lewis, host of the Echoes of History podcast, where every week we'll be delving into the real life history that inspires the locations, characters and storylines of the legendary Assassin's Creed franchise. Join us as we explore the narrow streets of Medici ruled Florence, cross sand dunes in the shadow of ancient pyramids, climb the rigging of 18th century brig sailing across the Caribbean, and come face to face with some of history's most significant individuals. Whether you're a history fan, a gamer, or just someone who loves a good story, Echoes of History is the podcast for you. Make sure to catch every episode by following Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by history. Hit wherever you get your podcasts.
- [37:46]
Austin James
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- [38:12]
Tracy Borman
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- [38:26]
Anthony
Well, speaking of evolution, let's go to a distinctly modern addition to the premises at Hampton Court and talk about some CCTV footage that includes a little haunting material.
- [38:44]
Maddie
We're looking at a screen on it, black and white. CCTV plays It's a recording of an old brick wall at the back of Hampton Court Palace. In the middle of the wall is a heavy double door made of wood. It's the winter of 2003, and there's no one in the picture. It feels like we're watching a forgotten corner of the palace, like someone has mistakenly pointed the camera in the wrong direction. It's the Tudor equivalent of a disused fire exit, a place no one comes to, a door no one ever uses. But then, suddenly, it bursts open. Almost as quickly, a robed figure reaches out to slam it shut again. As they do, we glimpse their skin, ghostly white. Their clothes, from what we can see of them, look old. Very old. They even have a cloak pulled over their head. Their movement, though, is sharp. Not soft and ghostly at all, but angry. Is this another ghost to add to our list? Or is it some kind of hoax? And if it is, who was that on the footage? And why did they do that? No one at the palace could explain it in 2003, and this one still remains a mystery today. One thing is clear. This pile of old bricks on the banks of the River Thames still holds the power to bring the past bursting back into the present.
- [40:32]
Anthony
First of all, I want to hear Tracy's reaction to hearing Hampton Court palace described as a pile of old bricks.
- [40:38]
Maddie
And I would like to just clarify that that is Freddie, our producer's scripting.
- [40:44]
Tracy Borman
I was trying to hold back there and keep my polite smile, but, yeah, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna let that one pass because actually, it's not as rude as Charles Dickens described it as. A red brick dungeon.
- [40:57]
Anthony
Hampton Court.
- [40:58]
Tracy Borman
He hated Hampton Court. So, actually, parlavol bricks. I'll take that now.
- [41:02]
Anthony
Listen, I haven't seen this footage. Have you seen this, Maddie?
- [41:05]
Maddie
I've not watched it, but I will Be absolutely doing so after this conversation, rest assured.
- [41:10]
Anthony
Is it on YouTube or something? Can I find it just randomly?
- [41:13]
Tracy Borman
I think it's on YouTube.
- [41:14]
Anthony
Right, Tracy, you're there all the time. What do you make of that footage?
- [41:19]
Tracy Borman
Yeah, I've seen this footage quite a few times and I'm really intrigued. And I spoke to our resident ghost hunter, Ian Franklin, who knows more about Ghost Close at Hampton Court than you will ever need to know. He's just brilliant. And nobody has ever been able to come up with an explanation for this? Of course there are explanations, but one that actually could be real, because, yes, we have people in costume wandering around the palace quite often. We have our costumed interpreters. They're dressed up very much as you will see in this footage. This Tudor gentleman, by the way, has been nicknamed Skeletor by the security staff. So if you look it up on YouTube, I think Skeletor is how it's known. And, yeah, we have people dressed like that. So that was the first assumption. It was a member of the costumed interpretation staff. They'd gone through the wrong door and then they closed it again quickly enough. Except they couldn't have got to that part of the palace. The palace, it's really difficult to navigate and actually get to where you want to go because there are multiple security doors, codes. Basically, my phone is full of codes because I can't keep them in my head. And it's not a part of the palace where the costumed interpreters could have got to. So that's number one explanation, really. And then it would have been quite a hoax, I suppose, if some member of security staff had dressed up like that. Because this is a good Tudor costume. We're not talking about those kind of Hollywood versions that are quite obviously from your local costume shop, party hire shop. It looks authentic and as Maddie pointed out, there's a sort of slightly ghostly appearance. It's a very pale complexion, at least we can say. And if it was a prank, nobody has ever come forward. I've worked there since 2008, so I joined five years after this sighting. It's really interesting is all I'll say. I live with a skeptic who believes absolutely everything can be explained in a very scientific way. So I definitely keep an open mind. I try to look at it in that way as well, but nobody has ever come up with a satisfactory explanation for who that might have been, if not a ghost.
- [43:30]
Maddie
I love as well, thinking back to those early 20th century, possibly late Victorian postcards depicting ghosts and very obviously fake and Certainly not claiming to be real, but, you know, a sort of portrayal of the kinds of things you can expect if you come to Hampton Court. And yet here, potentially on CCTV in 21st century, late 20th century technology, there might very well be evidence of a real ghost at Hampton Court. I love it.
- [43:57]
Tracy Borman
It's so great. I hope everyone's now, as soon as they finish listening to this, just gonna get themselves on the Internet and look it up, because it is. I can't stop watching it because it's just like you say, Maddie, that this isn't some kind of elegant slow motion ghostly movement. They're flinging open the doors. There's a bit of anger or frustration about this figure. And then just as quickly they've gone again. It's. It's really intriguing.
- [44:25]
Anthony
Somebody's line manager upset them that day and now we are forever.
- [44:30]
Tracy Borman
Don't spoil it, Anthony. Come on.
- [44:32]
Maddie
Anthony's always bringing the rubbish. Boring skepticism, every time.
- [44:37]
Anthony
I will say this. I know one of your current. I think she overs. She helps with the costume. She's a costume designer because she dressed me for a theater production that was in Lovely Erin. And I'm definitely going to. I'm definitely going to poke her for some inside costume detail, see if there's anything that they might know a little bit separately. But yeah, it is like. Well, I do love all of this, despite the fact that I don't necessarily believe in it, but I love it because it says something about how we feel about history and how we connect to history and how we pass history on. And actually, everything that we have discussed here today has been about Katherine Howard, who is perhaps one of the lesser known of the. The wives of Henry viii. So we're learning a little bit about her. We're learning a little bit about Sybil Penn, who. That's a brand new name to me. I'd never heard the name Sybil Penn before and I'm sure there are loads of people who haven't. We're learning about grace and favour. Residents like the ghost stories are key to how we understand these histories. Whatever we think about the actuality of how likely it is or it isn't that these people are revisiting. But, Tracy, I have one final question before we go. If we are able to haunt places, which of the historic Royal palace buildings would you come back and haunt? And why?
- [45:52]
Tracy Borman
Oh, no, how am I going to choose that? I mean, I feel I should say the Tower because I spend a lot of time at the Tower. I was married at the Tower, probably Shouldn't. Should come back and haunt the chapel where I was married. But actually I would come back to dear old Hampton Court, that pile of bricks.
- [46:12]
Maddie
I'm never living this down, am I?
- [46:14]
Tracy Borman
Never living that down. And I would float along the corridors that lead from the great kitchens up to the great hall. And for me, that is the most atmospheric part of the whole palace. It looks exactly as it did in Tudor times. The Victorians haven't messed about with that. And it always feels like if you just turn around quickly enough, you'll see a member of the Tudor kitchen staff scuttling along, bearing a platter full of dishes for the king and his guests. And there's just something about that single stretch of the palace that gives me shivers down the spine. So I would come back and I would haunt that.
- [46:56]
Anthony
I think I'm gonna do Kensington Palace. I think I'll take that one.
- [46:59]
Tracy Borman
Good one.
- [46:59]
Anthony
So you take Hampton Court, I'll take Kensington. Maddie, what do you want?
- [47:03]
Maddie
I think I'll have to have the tower. It has to be the tower.
- [47:05]
Anthony
You go into the graffiti towers and look at all of those forever.
- [47:08]
Maddie
I would be doing graffiti as a ghost and the graffiti would appear and then dis. And it would be really offensive and it would be insulting to people as they walked past.
- [47:15]
Anthony
We're sorted. We've got the hauntings of historic royal palaces sorted for the next generation. But listen, Tracy, it's always such a pleasure and today has been no different. Thank you so much for this because it's a real joy. If you liked listening to this ghostly tour of Hampton Court palace, then you can of course visit in person. We encourage you to do that because it's one of our favorite places. Along with all the other historic royal palace buildings in London and throughout the UK. We have a catalogue of over 100 episodes. Go and listen to those. But we also have a sister podcast called Not Just the Tudors, which is presented by Professor Susanna Lipscomb, which is incredible and deals with this specific period in time. So if you enjoyed this chat, go and listen to some of her incredible episodes too. Leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. And we shall go now and think of what our ghostly costume design is going to be for when we're haunting all these locations. And we'll see you again next time for some more haunting stories from the past.
- [48:18]
Tracy Borman
So good, so good, so good. Perfect gifts.
- [48:22]
Austin James
We've got them at Nordstrom Rack stores now.
- [48:24]
Tracy Borman
Ugg, Nike, Barefoot Dreams, Kate Spade, New York and more finds everything on their wish list all in one place.
- [48:32]
Maddie
Steve Madden. Yes, please. It's perfect.
- [48:35]
Austin James
Did we just score the greatest gifts of all time?
- [48:38]
Maddie
Yeah.
- [48:39]
Austin James
Head to your Nordstrom rack store to.
- [48:41]
Tracy Borman
Score great brands, great prices. The greatest gifts of all time.
- [48:46]
Anthony
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