← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
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- [00:00]
Dr. Laurie Santos
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- [00:42]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly Doug)
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- [00:49]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Partner
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- [00:50]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly Doug)
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- [00:54]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Partner
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- [00:59]
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- [01:35]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
As night falls, a soul begins its journey to the beyond. Freed from its newly deceased body, they drift into the Duat, a realm of darkness, fire and monsters. Guided by spells from the Book of the Dead, they must make their way across this perilous landscape. Finally, they stand before Osiris, God of the dead, where they face a test of judgment. If they pass, paradise awaits, if not, oblivion. This was the path that all ancient Egyptian souls would undertake. After. The Ancient Egyptians, one of the most fascinating civilizations of the ancient worlds, devoted to gods, obsessed with death and bound by ritual. For them, death marked the beginning of a new chapter, a journey through a shadowy realm of trials, monsters and divine judgment ruled by the God Osiris. They preserved their dead, spoke spells from the Book of the Dead, and prepared for eternity with extraordinary care. To the Egyptians, survival was not guaranteed. It had to be earned. So now, from the depths of the ancient Egyptian underworld. Welcome to After Dark. Hello there, and welcome to After Dark. I am Anthony, and if you've been watching for the last Few months. You know that Maddie is somewhere in the world at the moment trying to solve that problem with, you know, when the caps come off, fizzy bottle drinks. But. And it's really annoying. She's just trying to solve that. It's God's work she's doing. But she will be back very soon. But until then, we are treating you to some incredible after Dark episodes. And today is no different. We are exploring the ancient Egyptian underworld. And who better than Friend of the Pod to help us through this than Dr. Campbell Price. He is an Egyptologist, as you know, if you've been listening to After Dark before, and is curator of Egypt and Sudan at Manchester Museum and honorary research fellow at the University of Liverp. And he's our go to Ancient Egypt expert. And he is also an author of a new book, by the way. Well, his newest book, Brief Histories Ancient Egypt and a children's book that he's written with Greg Jenner, which I advise you to go out and get all of those things and get to know Campbell even better. Campbell, thank you so much for coming back.
- [04:35]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Thank you, Anthony. What a thrill to be back. Sorry Maddy's not here, but thank you also for the plugs.
- [04:40]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, listen, pluggity plug, plug, plug. We're all out here trying to enlighten the masses to all these different types of history. Now today we're gonna be talking about the ancient Egyptian underworld. Okay, we're gonna say that for now and then we can talk about the nuance to that. Yes, as historians so often do. But I have a very big question for you and you can distill it down as much as you like. What did the ancient Egyptians believe?
- [05:14]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
We do not know what the ancient Egyptians believed. Even if you had an ancient Egyptian sat at. I don't think you know, it's the problem of anthropology. If you ask the question, you condition the answer. Ancient Egyptians didn't say in their own language. They believed. They said they knew I know my magic, I know my spell. They didn't need to believe anything. They had to know.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And we're talking about like a real pantheon of belief and as you say, like there's so much to pick from, it's hard to know where to settle. Am I right in thinking that we know of at least about 150go just off the bat that are existing just
- [05:54]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
off the bat ones we have names for. And we'll come back to this idea, perhaps occult for, but in terms of entities. So it's really a flexible situation. Have a little of some. A Little of another, but we have easily a thousand entities that are identified in some way by the ancient Egyptians as divine. And divine is a sliding scale, Anthony. The king can be divine, the river can be divine. Divine. You can meet a divinity in a dream. Rock can be divine, animals can be divine. So it's a real smorgasbord of encounters with the superhuman.
- [06:38]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Encounters is a nice word. I like that. That's doing a lot of work there in a really good way. Now, when you say these divinities or these divines are all over the place, what are they doing? So we talked about the river there, so that says something to me about life giving and water. You talked about different aspects. I'm assuming they all have slightly different jobs that come together to make a world as we would. As they would know it, I suppose is a better way of putting it.
- [07:09]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes, so exactly. You have a world which is inherently full inhabited with these entities. So you can meet a God. Chapter three of my Brief histories book, how do you meet a God? You can meet a God in a dream, as I said, which you can kind of imagine. You see something you can't explain and that's labeled as a God. You can go out into the marshes next to the river and meet a God there. Special gods in the marshes or in the desert. You can meet a God in a temple. And this is maybe what we expect with congregational religion. But an ancient Egyptian temple is not like a church or a mosque or a synagogue. It is a place where ritual specialists, the priests, lots of scarecrows, do their work on a regular basis as part of a cult. And a cult has kind of certain associations now, but Egyptology uses the word cult to mean regular service to a God, giving of offerings, prayers, hymns. So all of these gods inhabit every aspect of the world, every aspect of your life. But not everyone can go into a temple. But you could worship a God in your home. I think that would be across the social spectrum.
- [08:25]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Now this is getting off topic a little bit, but it's just intriguing and I want to explore a little bit more. This is what I love about After Dark.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Go on.
- [08:32]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Topics be damned. You said not everybody can go into a temple.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Oh, gosh, no.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
So who can go into a temple and who can't?
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Well, this probably could do an episode on its own. This is a specialist interest of mine. Who could see ancient Egyptian statues? Because you can go into the British Museum or go onto a site in Egypt and see them, touch them and get up close with them. You couldn't in Ancient times. Because statues, certainly statues of gods are so inherently divine, they have to be shielded, shrouded, boxed off, put in little cultic cupboards because they're so powerful to look at. So even images of gods on the wall we have evidence of little curtains. They put curtains over them so that profane eyes, or even the eyes of the priests who were going about the regular business couldn't see them. And then if you want to go up and you've got a prayer, you've got a problem, you've got a dilemma, you then focus your dilemma on that part of the wall, you reveal the God you're praying to, do your offering and then cover it over again.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right. So I would not be allowed to see it. My eyes would be very profane, I would imagine.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah, unless you're purified, sanctified, sanctioned. So you're a member of the priesthood, male or female in rotation. So you're not for most of Pharaonic history, you're not born a priest, son of a priest, you are maybe something else, probably well to do and you serve as a priest for every few months maybe. And it's quite a good job because in a non monetary economy, in a decent sized temple, the God is getting given food and drink and you know, sides of beef which the God himself or herself is not eating.
- [10:13]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
You're getting paid in food through luxurious commodities. Okay, right, I should watch out for that ad if it ever comes up for that job. But if there's all of these divines and they are overseeing different parts of life, it stands to reason, I would imagine, that there are others that are overseeing death and dying.
- [10:33]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
So talk to me about those specifically.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes, I would say, and I really would emphasize the problem as you know, as a historian, is we compare one culture with another, maybe inadvisedly. So we've had the Greeks and the Romans more recently and so we think, ah yes, goddess of love and God of war. And it is not that delineated. Yeah, clearly, clearly it is not that clear for the ancient Egyptians. But you're right in terms of life, birth, having a good time, there are gods associated with those things. But when it comes to the ultimate transition out of life, yes, there are various gods particularly associated with death and
- [11:20]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
they have functions to fulfill. So let's talk about that process then. Let's talk about the process of the ancient Egyptian soul. Just a slight question there. I am pootling along down the road, not feeling great, I drop dead. I believe that there is an afterlife because that is around Me on a daily basis. What do I believe happens to my soul at that point? After the lifetime. Putin.
- [11:51]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Okay, I like the way you framed that. So first of all, it would depend who you are in the social hierarchy where you are in Egypt. Egypt's a big place.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yeah.
- [12:01]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
When are we talking? We've got a 3,000 year span. So things are quite. Although they can be quite regional and dependent on time. There is this overarching umbrella of consistency and that's what makes ancient Egypt and Egyptology so attractive because it seems like they all think the same because everything's so consistent and so kind of cookie cutter in design. Everything must be conceptually the same. Probably not. So take your average person in the New Kingdom. So I'm talking say 1200 BCE, almost three and a half thousand years ago. You drop dead, as you say, and you're someone fairly high up. I don't think you have this Cartesian division of body and soul. It's much more complicated than that. So to give you an example, you're pootling along and you're aware on a sunny day that there is another entity following you when it's sunny.
- [13:03]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, via the sun.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
It's your shadow.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right. I see.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
That is part of you that you need not to lose after you die.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So we're really expanding because in the pre modern world, how do you explain shadows?
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yeah.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Because you can't see sunlight. Really?
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So there's all of this. There are concepts like the name, your name is important. That is kind of a separable part of you. You have and again, big air quotes here. The soul, which could take different forms or different visualizations or different words for aspects of the soul. So there is the ka spirit and the ka is to do with sustenance. And there seems to be some concern that you need to be fed in the afterlife after death. You need sustenance. So your ka is like your double, your invisible double that is kind of born with you. When you are born, it's like an invisible twin. And you need, you know, someone. There's a euphemism for death in ancient Egypt. Someone who has gone to their ka. I see, that's telling you someone's passed away. Then there is the ba. And this is something that appears in visual art as a human headed bird. So this is, you can characterize it as the spirit of mobility. It comes and goes from the tomb, from the grave, and exists outside. Then there's the ark. And the ark is basically the ancient Egyptian ghost.
- [14:39]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh. Because I thought what you were previously describing sounded quite ghost like, in that it's coming and going. But no, this is the ghostlier, ghostlier
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
one, because ghosts can do things and can be perceived. The bar can. The Ba can do things. But I think the Ark is more the thing that people complain about. You know, great anti.
- [15:02]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Are they afraid of it?
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
In some cases, yes. They try and placate it. They write to the Ark and say, stop bothering me. What have I done to you? I've given you offerings. I haven't taken up with that woman down the road.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
So they feel as if, you know, you talked about the shadow being with you and you talked about this coexistence. Even if it's an unseen coexistence, even after death, there is still an idea that they are coexisting with the Ark or the Ba or whatever iteration of that life force beyond the physical living body.
- [15:35]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes. I mean, whether ancient Egyptians really thought like this. Let me tell you what Egyptologists have said. Yeah. So there is a generally accepted notion that you have all of these aspects to yourself. Right. So it's not just body and soul, and then death kind of wrenches these apart and they're cast asunder. And so the ritual of mummification brings them back together.
- [16:02]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
There is one important aspect I missed out there in the list, and one I'm particularly interested in at the moment is the sach.
- [16:11]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, you've mentioned the sah.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
We have talked about it.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Go back and look After Dark, previous episodes. But yes, yes, go again.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Because this was illuminating for me the last time.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So, in brief, the body, the word closest to what we would say mummy or mummified body, is sach, which is like a radiant wrapped form, the form of a God. And the whole point, and this is really the punchline I want to get to the whole point of mummification, or the hope of any ancient Egyptian is to dwell with the gods who are powerful because they inhabit all these superhuman aspects of the world. And that's the only way you're going to be immortal. You have to become one with these God beings, these Neru. That's the ancient Egyptian word. So by being a sah, this is like. It's an ancestor. It's like an effective ancestor. And this is the kind of entity you might appeal to in a temple statue, if you're allowed into a temple, or maybe you're allowed a bust of one of these individuals in your house in around 1200 BCE in the south of Egypt. So there are different ways to experience gods and there are different ways to experience the dead. The major qualification for being a God is you can be represented so you can be shown in a painting or a carving or a statue. And it is just an observational thing that there are things in this room that will last longer than we will last. And I think there was an acknowledgement that a statue of someone could far outlast biological life. And that was the aim, the kind of the target to which to aspire.
- [18:06]
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- [19:04]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Partner
Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly Doug)
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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Partner
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- [19:19]
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- [21:20]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
So these are complex and nuanced and varied. And I think that's really, really important. I think it's important to remember the time span we're talking about here, and we will touch on specific instances and specific beliefs for the rest of this episode. But I think it is worth bearing that in mind in the back of our minds that we're talking about varied peoples at varied times with varied belief system. I think that helps to enlighten the individual belief systems that we are talking about. And we talked about that physical transformation from life to these more spiritual entities. Let's talk a little bit. And again, we've spoken about this in a previous episode, but I think it'll be quite useful to remind people or for new listeners who are just joining us about what is physically happening for somebody who has passed away, who is dead. I don't like the term passed away.
- [22:14]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Go into your car. But it seems like.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
But it seems very appropriate in this in a way. Cause it is a passing, isn't it?
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And so that's why I said it.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Journeying. Yeah.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yes. Yes. So, okay, so what is happening to the body, let's say the body of that same person that. Let's stick with that imaginary person that we said at that time, we said 1200 BCE what then physically happens to that body? He's busy doing whatever he's doing in the afterlife for an hour. But what are the people in the real world doing with his human reins?
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So they are taking him to a specialist, an embalmer, and that group of People probably at some remove from society. You don't go to an undertaker on the high street, they probably have a workshop, understandably, on a hill that gets the breeze. And that person, for 70 days is treated to the ritual of mummification. And I said this before, now we'll say it again. We have this very morbid fascination, curiosity, it's true throughout history in the gory details of what happens to the dead. And you see it in all kinds of contexts. In Egyptology, it's a fascination of the gory procedure of removing organs, brain at the nose, all of that stuff that an 8 year old can tell you. But actually the ritual of mummification is about changing the body, not preserving it. So it's not, oh, Granny looks so peaceful. This concept of granny looking as granny looked in our armchair is a modern one. Death irrevocably changes the body. And so the ancient Egyptians lean into this and strive towards, if they're striving towards anything, the transformation of the body into a divine form. And I'm choosing my words very carefully here because in some ways it's objectification. And I don't mean that to say that they treated people as positively.
- [24:17]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yes, yeah.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
It's because of the modern disregard for objects and our own very poor. The way in which we view things now is very dismissive of what we might call objects. But in ancient times, as I said, rocks, marshes, special formations in the landscape are all divine. So mummification. Much, much, much has been written about. This basically involves dehydrating the body, anointing it with oils and resins, and then wrapping it. So these are three things that you would encounter in a temple that you would do to a divine statue. You purify it with salt, a form of sodium compound called natron in Egyptology. So you wash it, you dry it in some form. Some people think you do it as a dry kind of pile on some salt and then that just takes out all the liquid that's in the human body. Some people think it was maybe a bath. There's a Great High Camp 1950s film, the Mummy, with Christopher Lee in it.
- [25:28]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Well, it's gonna be camp then, isn't it? Yes.
- [25:30]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
And in it, the princess is put in this bubble bath of natron and she looks very demure.
- [25:39]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right.
- [25:39]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
I don't think the reality was quite so demure. Anyway, so you dry the body out, then you fragrance it. Now this is important. Yes. There's a practical thing of Dead bodies don't smell very nice if they've been Left out in the heat, but also. So smell incense. In ancient Egyptian the word for incense means to cause, to be divine. So there is a word association going on there. You apply the unguents, a word. I absolutely love that smell nice. And yes, that has antibacterial properties. It does make the body smell nice, but it also makes them smell like a God. And then finally you wrap the body. And this idea of the sach being a radiant, brilliant, white linen covered, kind of amorphous shape is the thing again to strive towards. And it's funny because in modern gothic horror recreations of the mummified dead, they tend to be quite dirty and shuffling
- [26:37]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
and they, they're unraveling. Yeah. Falling to pieces.
- [26:43]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
They're all about corruption and decay and contagion.
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Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yes.
- [26:46]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Whereas the ancient Egyptian idea of this sach, this one aspect of the person, if you like, is that it's radiant, pure and it's impervious. So that is the point you want to get to. And this takes 70 days, right. And once that time is done, if you're fairly well off, you can afford a coffin and a tomb, a space to put the coffin, maybe with some grave goods. But before you go into the grave, your mouth is ritually opened to restore your senses. So this ritual of the opening of the mouth is really pretty pivotal to start you on your after life existence.
- [27:27]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And you mentioned journey before in relation to that. And so I want to say a word and then let you wax lyrical on this because it's an interesting journey. And that word is duat. So this is the, this is the beginning of. Well, this is the formal beginning of the journey once all of this sarking has been done.
- [27:50]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes, sarkification, exactly. So this is a notion, a concept that actually we only know for a relatively restricted period of time, which is slightly annoying. So we can extrapolate it to an extent to other periods. But when we're talking about the duat and what is in the duat and journeying through the duat, we're talking about kings from maybe 1400 BCE on for a few centuries. And maybe the belief kind of echoes down time, but it doesn't seem necessarily to be something that absolutely everybody does. Maybe they hope to, maybe the non elites hope to do this. But you're right, the da', wat, and you used the word at the top of the episode is the underworld.
- [28:37]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right, but not in a ooky, spooky, freaky way. No, not how we would understand hell is what I mean by that.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And thank you for clarifying that. Yeah. So there are modern associations of. Of you're good, you go up, you're bad, you go down. No, no. And it's something to do with the geographical situation of Egypt because you're close to the equator, daytime and nighttime are about the same length. What happens to the sun when you can't see it? That is the observation that I think all this starts with. And so at Some point around 1400, the notion is recounted in great and very arcane detail that the sun is traveling for the 12 hours of the night. Because the ancient Egyptians invent the 24 hour clock for the time the sun is not visible. It disappears under the earth. It is swallowed, in a sense, by the sky goddess, although she is above and below. And it's all a bit.
- [29:39]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Don't try to make it make sense, Campbell. Just go with this.
- [29:41]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
All right? Okay. That's the danger zone, if you try and rationalize it. So. So let's say it's swallowed. It's swallowed, and at dawn it's birthed. Right. So the basic aim, as I said before, is for the dead person to be with the gods or in some sense to become a God, right?
- [30:00]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yep.
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Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So if, you know, you live in ancient Egypt, how'd you get around the place? Not on a cart, really. Maybe on a chariot. Occasionally on a boat. So the sun is moving across the sky in a boat. The visible sun is moving across that sea of blue above our heads. So when it disappears at night, it must also be traveling in a boat. The bark of the sun God.
- [30:25]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Hey, there's sense in it.
- [30:26]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
There is sense in it. There is a cosmic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There is something very practical and rational in a way. So the sun God, because we're personifying the sun, it's not just the sun, it's the sun God, although all powerful, is also vulnerable. That's a very ancient Egyptian thing. Gods can be very vulnerable. They need to be in shrines and these little cultic cupboards. They need to be shrouded and protected and shielded from damage or danger. So the crew of the sun God are basically to protect him as he journeys along, at some point, waterways, at some point, is dragged across the desert. And there are constant threats. So the biggest threat is a serpent called Apep, Apophis, who's trying to destroy the sun God. And so there are various gods, lesser gods, you could say, than the sun God, who are trying to defend him from these threats. And in various hours, the 12 hours, some weird and wonderful things happen where you get the sense that the fate of the deceased is tied with the fate of the sun God. So each morning it's a pleasant surprise that the sun has not been gotten by the serpent and there's a new day.
- [31:52]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And there are other civilizations that thought the same. That the sun, it was almost miraculous that the sun reappeared.
- [31:59]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah.
- [32:00]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And that it didn't owe us anything and that you had to. I'm not talking about the ancient Egyptians here specifically. I'm talking about other civilizations. The Aztecs come to mind, for instance, where there were certain things you had to perform, duties you had to perform while on earth that could help the sun to reappear. And there seems to be a similar kind of thing there, even if it's not dutied in the same way. But it seems miraculous at the same time that going, oh, it's another day. Okay, great, we survive, we go again. But what is difficult to connect. I understand what you're saying in terms of the. It's usually they're not always elite people that are making that sun like journey. So the sun goes into the underworld at night. The socked iteration of the dead person is at some point joining that journey.
- [32:52]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [32:53]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
That has loads of peril and all that kind of thing. In the morning, the sun re emerges. Where's your man? Well, they just left him there.
- [33:04]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Well, there is a sense in which when the sun comes up at dawn, that's when dead people sleep.
- [33:11]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, they're just having a nap.
- [33:12]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Okay, so it's an inversion of this world.
- [33:15]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right.
- [33:15]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So their daytime. So because the sun is going under the underworld and it's the sun, this is something again mentioned in a lot of ancient Egyptian texts that you want to feel the sunshine. You want to, you know, sit with your beer and chill out in the sunshine. You know, it's something living people enjoy. So you want that to continue for eternity and that's expected to happen to the righteous dead. Yes, every night. Whereas living people enjoy the sun during what we call the daytime. So when the sun appears in the morning, everyone in the underworld is deprived of the sun. So it's nighttime and they just, just sleep.
- [33:56]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I love this. Bear with me when I say this and we're gonna get comments about this, but I've gotta say it nonetheless. The idea of mundanity, you know, when we talk about a Christian heaven, nobody ever says, oh, and you'll be. So you'll have a lovely nap. Nobody says that. But this idea that actually it's a very. It's a mirror but glorified deified, divine.
- [34:18]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [34:19]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
For the people who can achieve it, life. But that will include still sleeping, still doing the really mund stuff of life or the afterlife in this case. That's really intriguing. It just feels like you've slipped into another time zone almost.
- [34:36]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes. That's a really nice way to describe it because there's a fear definitely earlier than we have the text of the Amduat. So a thousand years almost before that. There is a fear that imagining it's that reversed world where you can nap as you can in life. The fear is in going into the underworld. Things will literally be upside down. So you'll walk on your head and you'll eat excrement. So there's a real fear of, I want it to be like life. But there's a sense in which it doesn't really. It's not that blissful. It is a replication of life.
- [35:13]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
It doesn't sound very blissful.
- [35:15]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
But being amongst the gods must be great.
- [35:17]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Sure.
- [35:17]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
And there is something which, just because we might not come back to it, there is something about the ark, the ghost that in some texts around the same time as the Ahmedabad is being put on oil to mortals. The ark is described as associated with the sun God. And it's like I always say to students in Manchester, it's like being on a cruise boat with the sun God and just enjoying that time with him. Being able to. If you're an ark and you've made it past these tests and, and the judgment and whatever, you can go into the presence of the gods and you can strike up a conversation at the bar, the Kevin Lee cruise boat in the sky.
- [36:00]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
We're running with us.
- [36:02]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
And you can say, oh, my granddaughter's got a problem. Could you sort it out, please? Because clearly the living are writing to the Ark, saying, hey, can you help me? Because they believe the ark are in the ancient Egyptian word eker or apper, which means effective or equipped. So it's not just, you are a good person. Who cares if you're a good person. If you're a good person and you can do something for me, you're useful. You're useful. That. Honestly, I think that is the most important concept in the ancient Egyptian afterlife. Mummification is meant to create, yes, godlike beings that are useful to the living.
- [36:42]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
That's interesting. I have two names for you before we move on and I'd just like to know a little bit more about them and then we'll talk about something else. But Osiris and Anubis.
- [36:52]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [36:54]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
What role do they play in any of this? Are they associated? You know, we've talked about, again, we're time spanning here. We talked about 1200 BCE, 1400 BCE. Where do they sit in this and what are they doing with these people?
- [37:07]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Okay, so they are both relatively early. You know, Anubis is around in the Pyramid Age, Osiris towards the end of the Pyramid Age, so early doors, like two and a half thousand bce. And it's funny, it's like a kaleidoscope through time. And in different regions you get a different configuration of gods.
- [37:30]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Okay.
- [37:30]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Osiris goes from being quite a regional God to being the king of the underworld. And he is ultimately the God to impress. He's the God of rebirth. And this myth develops fairly early that he is a good and wise and rightful king who's murdered by his evil brother, chopped into bits, scattered around the country, and then brought together by his diligent and very magical wife, Isis. Great magician, great of magic, Isis. And she creates the kind of archetypal mummified body by wrapping them up and. Oh, yeah, so Cyrus is the original. Well, Egyptologists want to say Osiris is the original mummified body, when in fact, the myth of Osiris probably comes from the practice of mummification. Sure, it's slightly the wrong way around, but yes, Isis is able to conceive with the deceased but briefly reanimated God, Osiris, a son John.
- [38:30]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Wishness. Fun. Yep.
- [38:31]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Let's move on. And his name is Horus, and he is the legitimate king. Right. So Osiris transmogrifies into the ruler of eternity. He's the ruler of different types of eternity. There are different types of eternity. And so he is the one ultimately, in some readings, that sits in judgment on the dead. Whoever you are, kings or commoners, then Anubis is maybe easier to visualize for people listening.
- [39:04]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
What function is he fulfilling here in this context?
- [39:09]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So he is an early manifestation of a divine power associated with the cemetery. So you can see the connection that might have been made between a cemetery and jackals that might be going around in the cemetery. So the iconography, the imagery of this guy always a man, always male, as Osiris is always male. Other gods can be of different forms. Together they appear in the royal expectations of the afterlife from the Pyramid age. So texts that go on the pyramids, at the end of the old kingdom, 2300ish BCE, you have gods who are not getting worshipped in the home. You're not worshipping Osiris at that period in your home or. Or Anubis. They are pretty exclusively associated with death and the transition into the afterlife.
- [40:04]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And Anubis is providing some form of guide through Duat, is that. Or the underworld.
- [40:12]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes. So he is shown in some scenes, not that many, as what in classical times is called a psychopomp.
- [40:22]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh yes, yes.
- [40:25]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So the psychopomp is the one that aids in the transition between this world and the afterworld. And there was a case with Elizabeth II actually where Paddington Bear is the psychopomp.
- [40:38]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I've just never heard this word before, which is psychopomp.
- [40:41]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
It's a great one for the future use and bamboozlement of students.
- [40:44]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I feel like Susie Dent would love a psychopom.
- [40:46]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
I'm sure she knows that word. But that's a good way of visualizing the concept because you know what happens in the Roman period. So mummification is still practiced in Egypt and Roman times. So the first couple of centuries A.D. c.E. You get little labels that go on mummified bodies and you get Anubis shown as a jackal. So far so good. On a little label. So far so good. But in Roman times he's shown with a key around his neck because the ancient Egyptians didn't have keys, but the Romans did, you know, locking key. So it's this idea that he holds the key that is going to let you into the other world. And so an early manifestation of Anubis, this jackal God is called in ancient Egyptian Wep Wa Wet.
- [41:41]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I think I've heard that before.
- [41:43]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Wepwa Wet is a jackal. And the name means literally the opener of the ways. Oh, and God knows how many Egyptologists have the word Wepawet is a password. Nor the computers.
- [41:55]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, really?
- [41:55]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Okay.
- [41:56]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Not you though.
- [41:57]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Not me.
- [41:58]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I wouldn't say on a red. Anyone's going to the Museum of Manchester or to the University of Liverpool. That is not Campbell's password. How do we know this?
- [42:06]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Because there are nice texts. So you can trace iconography on one wall that we know as, you know, 2,500 BCE compared with a Roman period wall. And there are more detailed texts, versions of what. What collectively are called the Book of the Dead, which sounds very scary. Which go into more detail about this.
- [42:27]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And when you say the Book of the Dead, what is that? Is that a how to? Is that, you know, a step by step sarking manual? What does that encompass? The Book of the Dead? I'm just now again tangent alert. But still it's curious.
- [42:41]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
I mean, I think that's very nice. Wish Egyptologists would share that step by step. Sarking manual is great. I will quote you on that.
- [42:49]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Dude. I'm in no way informed, but go ahead.
- [42:52]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
That really gets to the heart of it, basically. So if this Sa is this effective ancestor who's useful to the living but is in the company of the gods, the Book of the Dead is both in a sense. It's a bit of a cliche. It's a passport into this state, this condition of being after death. It's also a guidebook in a sense because it's got some practical tips, but it's also just a material expression of authority. And if you imagine in the pre modern world, ancient Egypt, certainly where most people can't read or write, if you have a document that has spells of great magical power which may have a life outside funerals and tombs, they may be used in temples. If you have this, it's like being given your university degree on your first day of freshers week.
- [43:44]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Except you're dead.
- [43:45]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Except you're dead. But you've got that power and that learning even without doing the work.
- [43:50]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Okay, okay. So it's almost like osmosized into.
- [43:53]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
You got it.
- [43:54]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. That's actually fascinating because it's a little bit like TripAdvisor in 1200 BCE where you're like, avoid that thing there, don't do this. But then you should be thinking and being very reflective here. That's so interesting. And I like again this idea. One of the things that struck me earlier is the usefulness of the dead.
- [44:13]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [44:13]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And this is quite a useful thing. Again, we're not necessarily talking here in terms of interventions and miracles. And yeah, of course there's elements of what we would now term magic to this, but at the same time there's really practical stuff going on here in some way.
- [44:30]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Like you said before, there's an element of the mundane, the practical. You've got a problem, so how are you going to optimize your chances of getting a solution? And I think in some ways to get back to the general theme of the, you know, the God Amun Ra, who's the big one in the New Kingdom period, 1200 BCE in some ways he seems quite inaccessible. But if you know your great Aunt Doris was during life quite a redoubtable person after death, she is the more effective person. Sure. You know, she's the go to. She knows who you are. The God Amun Ra or the deceased. Ramesses II might not give us stuff about you, but maybe one of your own family members to whom you are regularly giving offerings. Because it's always reciprocity. It's always, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. As long as you have this relationship with the dead, then the jobs are good.
- [45:38]
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- [46:27]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly Doug)
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- [46:36]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Partner
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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly Doug)
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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Partner
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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly Doug)
Anyways, get a'@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.
- [46:52]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Partner
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- [47:07]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Right. I have an image in front of me and I, I am going to attempt to describe it. And then you, the expert, are going to tell me what. I got woefully wrong.
- [47:15]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Have you seen this before, Anderson?
- [47:16]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I've literally never seen this before.
- [47:17]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Okay, great.
- [47:18]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
They add, they add in the images
- [47:21]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
at the end, at the very end before your notes are.
- [47:24]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And then I have to. Or when Maddie's around, one or the other of us take turns in sounding ridic. And then the expert tells us what the real thing is. So what I am seeing here is. Oh my goodness. I am seeing four figures. To start with, there is a weighing scale type thing, but it's quite big between them.
- [47:44]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [47:45]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And there's one figure on either side. And then there's two figures kind of down by the middle central pole and on each of the weighing scale. Oh, I should say the. There's two jackals.
- [47:57]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [47:59]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
This is where he gets stumped. There is two jackals on the left hand side. As I Look at it. On the right hand side, there is a bird type figure standing and a lion. Alligator type figure.
- [48:13]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [48:16]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And okay, now on the. On the scale things themselves, it's actually really nicely done. This.
- [48:23]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
It's a very fine, precise.
- [48:25]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yeah. Oh, I'm having difficulty seeing what some of these things are. So that looks to me like. Okay, I'm just gonna say it as I see it. Some kind of a crook or a. Or it looks like a wormy type thing or a feather maybe. Oh, it's a right feather. Okay.
- [48:41]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Feather, feather.
- [48:42]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And then on the other side, there's a little. Is that a pot?
- [48:47]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [48:48]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Okay. Right, Campbell, save the listeners from having to listen to me and tell me what I'm actually you.
- [48:56]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Really. Well, so on the. On the left we have our friend. We've just been talking about Anubis. Yes. Twice.
- [49:03]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yes.
- [49:03]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
The same figure repeated.
- [49:04]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I see. So it's not to Anubai.
- [49:06]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
No, no, he's meant to. It's the same person doing the different actions. So he is just off the image you're seeing, he's actually holding someone's hand. He's psychopomping a guy called Cunefer into the.
- [49:20]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I see the hands now.
- [49:21]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah. And actually, because it's a living person, he's showing. Shown with dark brown flesh. But because Anubis is a God, he's got golden skin and actually his head covering round his jackal head is blue. Because gods have lapis lazuli here.
- [49:37]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Stop.
- [49:38]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes. So that's just the iconography of divinity. You're right, it's a scale. So the scale is showing you a pretty critical moment, it seems, in the transition into otherworldliness in which the heart of the deceased is weighed in that little pot. In the pot. So conceptually, the heart, the EB heart or the khati heart can be shown as a vessel, literally, in modern medical terms. It seems a bit strange, but the ancient Egyptians don't have the kind of love heart concept.
- [50:23]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Although it is quite heart shaped, isn't it? Like almost more medically, heart shaped with handles and a top.
- [50:28]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes. And it's being balanced and it's shown as being appropriately, decorously, slightly lighter than a feather.
- [50:38]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yes.
- [50:38]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
This is conceptual, of course. Obviously, hearts are heavier than feathers. But the feather in ancient Egyptian thinking is synonymous with truth, cosmic balance, justice. Right. Correct behavior. And it's symbolized by the lady personification at the top of the balance. She is Ma', at, the goddess of truth justice.
- [50:59]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, up here.
- [51:00]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yep. So she is replicated. She's got a feather on her head. A feather kind of weighing the.
- [51:05]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, I see her now. I didn't see her. I'll post this on social media.
- [51:08]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Okay. And then so the idea is to show that you were a good person. Yeah. Your heart is being balanced and hopefully you'll be fine because you lived a good life. You're also in a different part of the Book of the Dead declaring the things you didn't do, you didn't steal, you didn't maim, you didn't covet your neighbor's ass. Yeah. But then all of this is being recorded by your man on the right. Yes, this is the God Thoth. And he is very ostentatiously, as you would if you could write in ancient Egypt, showing off his writer's palette.
- [51:42]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yes, he is. He's holding that up there for everybody to see. He's got his blue hair and his gold skin as well.
- [51:47]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So he's showing. Okay. The result, which is conceptually, because it's been written down in a document, positive, you don't want to create a negative situation. But the threat of negativity and essentially eternal non existence, if not damnation is implied by that hybrid creature. You got pretty right. So crocodile, lion, hind parts for hippo.
- [52:13]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, that's what it actually is.
- [52:14]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah.
- [52:15]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, okay.
- [52:16]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So this is AMU the devourer, the one who basically swallows your heart if you have done bad things.
- [52:24]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
He gets that.
- [52:25]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah.
- [52:26]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, that's kind of cool.
- [52:27]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yeah. So this is much is made of this. And I imagine in ancient Egyptian society, generally, you know, judgment, weighing of goods was important because it was a barter economy. There's no coinage, it's not a monetary economy. So people would be familiar with the idea of value, you know, equivalent value. So the idea that your heart should be weighed as a kind of assessment of your character, of your goodness. Goodness, moral uprightness makes sense. One note of caution I would sound here is that, you know, in more recent times, especially in the Christian tradition, there is this idea of the judgment day and we may back project that slightly. So whatever is being shown here is part of what goes on in this transition to the after world. But whether it is absolutely critical in the way of the Christian. I see judgment of the dead, we're not quite sure.
- [53:30]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And remind me, what's this, the writer's name?
- [53:33]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Oh, he's Thoth.
- [53:35]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Thoth.
- [53:35]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Thoth.
- [53:36]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
It's a lot of TH's for an Irish person. Now it does look like he's wearing an Apple watch much there?
- [53:42]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
It does.
- [53:42]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
But he's also. What is the bird of the head? The head of the bird, what's that symbolizing?
- [53:48]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
That's an ibis bird.
- [53:49]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Okay.
- [53:50]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So there are a range of birds. You can have raptors or different kinds of birds. The barbird. Is the inversion still divine where it's a human head on a bird's body. So the idea with the ibis bird, pretty lateral thinking again, is, I guess you see an ibis bird dipping its beak into the water to get fish or worms or whatever, and it's like a scribe dipping your pen into the ink.
- [54:16]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I'll buy it.
- [54:17]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So, I mean, I don't think that's silly.
- [54:20]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:20]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
It's just an easy explanation. But the implication of what happens if you don't live a good life is never really made clear.
- [54:32]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh, fascinating.
- [54:35]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
And whereas, you know, Christian theology of certain periods is, you know, brimstone and hellfire, oh, you know, something terrible is gonna happen. I'm familiar with it, yes, probably more so than me. But there is a very interesting reflection on this idea that is unusually explicit at the end of pharaonic times, so into the time of the Ptolemies, leading up to Cleopatra into the Roman period. The copy I'm thinking of is early Roman, common in date. There is a text that's part of a cycle of myths, but they're kind of historically informed myths called. It's written in demotic, so a very late form of the Egyptian script. And in this there's a precocious, magical little boy called Siosri who takes his dad into briefly, temporarily into the underworld and sees the judgment. So given the date of this text, it may be influenced by Greek and Roman ideas of what goes on in the underworld. So we can't maybe read it as absolutely typical of what an ancient Egyptian generally would believe. But there are some fascinating and really rather dark details where they go in and they see this kind of Tantalus like situation where I think it's tantalus, where you have of people weaving or platting rope only for the rope to be munched by a donkey, so you are eternally making the rope. Or they have food and drinks suspended above them and people are constantly digging in the sand under your feet, so you are never going to reach the food.
- [56:19]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
So pretty grim punishment there somewhere.
- [56:23]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
So those entities, those people are undoubtedly not those blessed ones being lit up by the sun God when he goes through the underworld. But there is one particular scene they see the judgment, and it does seem to Imply that some value is put on moral rectitude for a judgment, at least at this period. Because there is a rich man with all of his stuff and a poor man with nothing. And the rich man just lived a bad life. And so Osiris in judgment, sitting in judgment, says, I'm taking the rich man's stuff and I'm giving it to the poor man so the poor man can enjoy the radiant sakura. And you know what happens to the rich man?
- [57:05]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
The donkey thing?
- [57:06]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
No, much worse.
- [57:08]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Not the food and the sand?
- [57:09]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
No, no worse. Imagine something really bad.
- [57:11]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Oh no, go on, you're gonna have to tell me.
- [57:13]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
He is punished by having his right eye socket used as a door pivot for eternity.
- [57:20]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Bloody hell. I would never have guessed that. Campbell, you keep guessing there. Now like, was it the right eye socket you does a door pivot for the rest of eternity by any chance? Right. Bloody hell.
- [57:31]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
I mean, pretty grim. Pretty grim.
- [57:33]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:34]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
When we were talking with the producer Tom about this, he gasped at that and he thought you'd like that.
- [57:40]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
I'll tell you what it is though, at the same time useful.
- [57:43]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
It is useful, like horrendous.
- [57:45]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Of course, but I'm just talking. We've been talking about the usefulness of the dead.
- [57:49]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes.
- [57:50]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
And they're making use of him.
- [57:51]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Yes, that's true.
- [57:52]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
You know, again, I'm not trying to say he of had a lot lovely time. He clearly didn't. Now to wrap up, as we talk about any cultures of death, they always inevitably tell us more about the living than they do about the dead. And again, I'm sorry to put this long span question to you because it tells us, realistically the answer is it tells us different things at different times about different peoples. But what do you think, in a very general sense, the ancient Egyptian belief system in the underworld, their methods around death and dying, what does it tell us about. About the living? And how does that shape the day to day life of the ancient Egyptian.
- [58:29]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Great question. Because we have so little actually surviving concerning the life of the living. You know, houses don't really generally survive. Contents of houses and the people themselves can't tell us. I think you can extrapolate to an extent some of these afterlife beliefs to recognize the importance of family, the importance of lineage, the importance of ancestors and useful connections, the importance of hierarchy. Even without the king being the top of the tree, clearly there are some people are the village headman and you know, those kind of structures seem to be replicated in the underworld. There are consequences. It seems given those last examples of doing bad things. So that does tell you something about the socio moral codes of the ancient Egyptians, I guess. But of course, like any culture, things change through time.
- [59:27]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
What is your favorite window of time in the span of the ancient Egyptians when you're like, ah, I feel most at home here.
- [59:36]
Dr. Campbell Price (Egyptologist)
Well, recently, maybe I'll come back and talk about it. The reign of the female pharaoh Hatshepsut. Because we have a lot of stuff, not just the temples and the tombs and the mummified bodies in some cases, but little sketches and little letters so you get an insight into what people were really thinking. It would be her reign.
- [59:55]
Anthony (Host of After Dark)
Tom, let's schedule that one in. We need to do that one as well. Well, Campbell, thank you so much. It's always fascinating and we know the listeners and the viewers now on YouTube are, are so sucked in by this topic and by your presentation of it as well. And, and I was just saying to Campbell before we started chatting, I am now living up in West Yorkshire, so I'm nearer to Manchester, so I will be paying a visit to Manchester. So if you do find yourself up in Manchester, do go along to the museum and see Campbell's work there. And also there's the books we mentioned at the top. We'll put links to those in the description of this episode. Thank you as ever for joining us on After Dark to hear these conversations with incredible experts. We are so, so lucky to have people come in and exchange their knowledge with us. If you've enjoyed this episode, go and leave us a five star review wherever you get us your podcasts. Did you know we are also on YouTube? So go over there and subscribe and watch us over there if you'd like to watch and listen at the same time. And there's one other thing. Oh yes, the other thing is after darkistoryhit.com if you have any ideas for future episodes, do drop us an email there and we will get reading all those emails, put them together, we have production meetings and then we see which ones we might be able to make into an episode. So that's after darkhistoryhit.com until next time. Happy listening.
- [61:14]
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