Lost Colony of Roanoke: the Untold Story

Summary

Summary of "Lost Colony of Roanoke: the Untold Story" Episode from After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Podcast Information:

• Title: After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
• Hosts: Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling
• Episode: Lost Colony of Roanoke: the Untold Story
• Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal, hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling delve into the enigmatic disappearance of the Roanoke Colony. Moving beyond the traditional narratives, they explore the interactions between the English colonists and the indigenous Croatoan people, shedding light on a perspective often overshadowed in historical accounts.

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Revisiting Roanoke: A New Perspective (02:07 - 04:43)

The episode re-examines the Roanoke Colony mystery by focusing on the relationship between the English settlers and the indigenous Algonquian people. Anthony sets the stage by recounting John White’s return to Roanoke Island in 1590, finding the colony deserted with the sole clue, the word "Croatoan," carved into a tree (02:29).

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Who Were the Croatoans? (06:11 - 07:30)

Guest: Professor Robbie Richardson, University of Princeton

Professor Richardson explains the Croatoans as part of the Eastern Algonquian group inhabiting the eastern seaboard of North America. He describes their settled agricultural lifestyle, seasonal migrations, and complex social structures:

"The Croatoans would have been one of a number of village states... for community-based relationships and actions." (06:11)

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John White and His Documentation (07:56 - 08:25)

Anthony inquires about John White, the colonial governor and an artist who meticulously documented both the colonists and the indigenous people. Professor Richardson highlights White’s role:

"He very assiduously documented all of the commodities around the colony, the manners and customs of the people." (07:56)

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Depictions of Indigenous Life (09:40 - 16:02)

The hosts analyze John White’s hand-colored illustrations of the Croatoan village, noting the European cartographic influence and the depiction of a vibrant, organized society. Professor Richardson contrasts these images with later stereotypes of indigenous peoples as nomadic hunter-gatherers:

"What we see here is a decidedly, much more settled life... There's a real admiration for indigenous planting." (10:33)

Maddy emphasizes the depiction's complexity, showing busyness and social functions, and questions the relationship dynamics between the English and the Croatoans.

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Early Interactions: Cooperation and Conflict (13:09 - 16:43)

Professor Richardson discusses the dual nature of early interactions, highlighting instances of both cooperation and conflict. He notes the devastating impact of disease on the Croatoans and the simultaneous collaboration exemplified by figures like Manteo:

"There's a real admiring for indigenous planting... instances of cooperation." (13:09)

He also points out how White’s depictions mask the underlying tensions and violence:

"These images kind of mask what was actually a massive culture of distress." (15:19)

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The Journey to London: Manteo and Monchese (19:39 - 25:55)

The conversation shifts to the significant event of two Carolina Algonquian men, Manteo and Monchese, traveling to London. Professor Richardson details their experiences and the differing impacts on their subsequent relationships with the English:

"Manteo is very much an Anglophile... Juan Chese saw English power as very menacing." (20:02)

He explains how Manteo embraced English technology and power structures, leading to his lifelong loyalty, while Monchese became disillusioned and resistant.

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Cultural Exchange and Indigenous Cosmopolitanism (23:31 - 24:49)

Professor Richardson introduces the concept of "indigenous cosmopolitanism," describing the Algonquian people's inherent curiosity and adaptability in engaging with other cultures:

"Indigenous life in the Americas was very multicultural... interested in encountering others and learning from others." (23:31)

He elaborates on how this openness facilitated mutual cultural exchanges and technological adaptations.

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Fate of the Roanoke Colonists (26:51 - 28:23)

The hosts explore theories about the disappearance of the Roanoke colonists. Professor Richardson posits that the settlers likely integrated into the indigenous communities rather than meeting violent ends:

"I think, my strong suspicion... those people would have been taken into the communities, married and adopted in." (26:51)

He challenges the conventional narratives of destruction, suggesting instead a form of peaceful assimilation.

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Impact on Algonquian Cultures and Legacy (29:10 - 31:25)

The discussion turns to the long-term effects of these early encounters on Algonquian cultures. Professor Richardson mentions how stories of white origins emerged in indigenous lore and how these interactions influenced later colonial attitudes:

"Most of those cultures were so sort of fragmented and broken up that it's hard to say what survives... accounts of stories of sort of white origins." (29:44)

He connects the Roanoke narrative to broader themes of cultural assimilation and myth-making in American history.

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Roanoke in 19th Century Myth-Making (30:06 - 31:25)

Maddy relates the Roanoke story to 19th-century myths that emphasized purity and victimhood of European settlers. Professor Richardson explains how these narratives became central to American identity, diverging from the more complex realities of early interactions:

"It's very much a part of that narrative... but before that time, I don't think that it was necessarily that big of a deal." (31:25)

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Recommendations and Further Reading (32:21 - 33:24)

Anthony invites listeners to explore further readings on the topic. Professor Richardson recommends:

• The Head in Edward Nugent's Hands by Michael Leroy Orberg
• His own book, The Savage and Modern Self

He also mentions an upcoming article on John White’s depiction of indigenous funerary practices and the objectification of indigenous peoples.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Maddy and Anthony thanking Professor Richardson for his insightful analysis, encouraging listeners to engage with the complex and often overlooked facets of the Roanoke mystery through an indigenous perspective.

"If you've enjoyed this episode of After Dark, you can write in to [e-mail]. Leave us a five-star review wherever you get your podcasts." (33:48)

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Key Takeaways

• Croatoan Identity: The Croatoans were a settled, agricultural Eastern Algonquian group with complex social structures.
• John White’s Role: As both governor and an artist, White documented indigenous life, albeit through a European lens that sometimes masked underlying conflicts.
• Cultural Exchange: Early interactions included both cooperation and conflict, significantly influenced by differing perspectives and impacts of disease.
• Integration Theory: It is plausible that the missing Roanoke colonists integrated into indigenous communities rather than being violently displaced.
• Myth vs. Reality: Later narratives often simplify and mythologize the Roanoke story, neglecting the nuanced and multifaceted interactions between cultures.

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Notable Quotes

• Anthony Delaney (07:56): "He very assiduously documented all of the sort of commodities around the colony, the manners and customs of the people."
• Professor Robbie Richardson (10:33): "What we see here is a decidedly, much more settled life... There's a real admiration for indigenous planting."
• Professor Robbie Richardson (13:09): "This is masking what was actually a massive culture of distress that was happening for indigenous communities at that time."
• Professor Robbie Richardson (23:31): "Indigenous life in the Americas was very multicultural... interested in encountering others and learning from others."
• Professor Robbie Richardson (26:51): "My strong suspicion… those people would have been taken into the communities, married and adopted in."

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Further Listening

For those interested in exploring more about the Lost Colony of Roanoke and indigenous perspectives, consider checking out Professor Robbie Richardson’s recommended readings and his forthcoming articles on the subject.

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Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie. And I'm Anthony and we are returning in this episode to the lost colony of Roanoke. But this time we're looking at it from a bit of a different angle. To set the scene, Anthony is going to take us right there.

[Anthony Delaney]

In 1590 three years after he had left to get help, John White, leader of the colonists of Roanoke, finally returned to Roanoke island and to the colony he was supposed to be building. Or rather returned to what was left of it. All the shelters were knocked down, detritus strewn Everywhere, no sign of life. His daughter and granddaughter had been among those John White had left there three long years ago. But where were they now? He searched desperately for a message, a clue to what happened. And he found one. A single word carved into a trunk. C R O A R, T O A N. Croatoan. That was all one word. Now, let's think about this word and what it tells us. People have suggested that the colonists died of hunger or disease or war, but the word they left behind wasn't starvation or the name of a disease or a mention of bloodshed. No. Instead they write Crow Toan, which was the name of a people and a place they lived. It is a reminder that at its heart, the lost colony of Roanoke is a story of encounter between English people and indigenous people. If we want to unpack the mystery that surrounds Roanoke, it is to this encounter between two completely different ways of imagining the world that we should look. What was life like for these people of Roanoke? How did the English see them? And how did they see the lost colonists of Roanoke?

[Maddy Pelling]

Hello, and welcome back to After Dark. I'm Maddie.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I'm Anthony.

[Maddy Pelling]

And last episode, we were talking to Dr. Misha Yuen about Virginia and Eleanor Dare, who were colonists in Roanoke and who in the centuries since, have had layers of myth added to them for various purposes. This episode, however, we are going to focus on the Algonquin people, whose land the colonists were on. Theirs is a story that is fundamental to understanding what happened to Roanoke, but it's a story that's often stereotyped and skipped over, erased in the archive. Our guest to help us through this history today is Professor Robbie Richardson of the University of Princeton. Robbie studies the interaction between indigenous and European cultures, and he's the author of the Savage and Modern North American Indians in 18th century British literature and Culture. Robbie, I have to say, when I was doing my PhD, your book was so exciting. It had just come out and it still sits Pride my shelf. So thank you very much for that and thank you for joining us.

[Grainger]

Thanks for having me.

[Maddy Pelling]

We are really happy to have you. Let's begin with a fundamental but quite simple question of who were the Croatoans? We get this word carved into, supposedly one of the posts at Roanoke once the colonists have disappeared. Can you give us an overview of who they were and where they fit into Native American culture, the landscape? Who are they? Are they a distinct group?

[Grainger]

Our sources for accessing who the Croatoans are, you know, fraught, obviously, because all that we really have are English documents. But we can piece together who they were through related groups around, and we can say, obviously with certainty that they were an Eastern Algonquian group. Eastern Algonquin peoples run along the eastern seaboard of North America from the Maritimes down to the Carolinas. All quite distinct groups, but also have a certain shared language base and some shared cultural traditions. The Croatoans would have been one of a number of sort of, I guess we might say, village states that would have been in the area, so that each village would have been kind of autonomously governed. But then there would have been one sort of werowance or leader that sort of looked over. All of them are like sort of 15 at a time in terms of what their life was like. They were people that were not nomadic anymore. They. They had domesticated plant life, so corn was a very fundamental part of Croatoan life and agriculture. They migrated seasonally between villages. They spoke a language that was verb based. And so that meant that there was a lot of interest in relationships and action between communities.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's so interesting, Robbie, because we are building an idea of this world. But a lot of the idea. Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe a lot of the ideas that we get about the Algonquins comes from John White himself. We've talked about John White before in the previous episode that we did on Roanoke, but give us an idea of. We didn't really talk about who he was, where he came from, we just mentioned the name. So I'd like to know a little bit more about him. What can you tell us about him?

[Grainger]

I think, like a lot of men of his time, the first sort of part of his life is a little bit opaque, but John White would become the colonial governor of Roanoke colony. But more importantly, he was an artist. Well, more importantly for my interests, I suppose, maybe not necessarily for the interests of those in his life, but he very assiduously documented all of the sort of commodities around the colony, the manners and customs of the people.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's fascinating to me, Robbie, that we don't have that much documentation around the colonists themselves, but equally that what we do have often relates to the indigenous people they were interacting with. And, you know, in this episode and certainly throughout your work, we're interested in pivoting that narrative and that focus off the centre of these European figures. And I suppose for us here in this conversation, John White is a way in to think about the indigenous people that he is not only interacting with, but you mentioned he's an artist, he is documenting their life and we can talk about maybe some of the assumptions or layers of meaning and interpretation that he might place on those images. But I want to get to the images first of all and to look at them. So we're going to put these up on. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see them and we'll put them on our socials as well. So I want to start with one of a village and I'm going to make Anthony describe it for us in true after dark tradition. And then Robbie, maybe you can tell us a little bit more about it, about where these very completely intricate and amazing but very, very important images come from today, how we have access to them and how we might interpret them. But first of all, Anthony, tell us what we're looking at, please.

[Anthony Delaney]

So I have an image that's hand coloured in front of me. It is of a village as Maddy kind of described. And it seems that there are dwellings and people coming and going from those dwellings. It seems like a place of busyness, a place of life. There are people gathered together in different social jobs and different social functions. I think I see some planting on the right hand side of the image as I look at it. So we're talking about cultivation and we have a nice functioning society that is obviously very organized, has organized itself. Robbie, you were talking about before that they had stopped at this point and that's quite clear that this is somewhere where they have made their home. Some people seem to be either preparing food, eating food, potentially. Robbie, help us with this because I know you're far more of an expert with this than we are, but it's an intriguing image at the very least.

[Grainger]

Yeah. And I mean, what's curious about it too, I think, is that in later productions of what indigenous life looks like, there's this idea of this sort of nomadic hunter gatherer existence. Right. But what we see here is a decidedly, much more settled life, which as I said, is true of the Carolina Algonquian people. They did migrate between villages. So this village would have been one that was kind of seasonal, usually around animal migration. So different fish seasons and whatnot, they would go. But we see white here is trying to capture a kind of a number of things. Right. He's trying to capture the sort of the fabric of social existence. We see ceremony, Right. We see cultivation. As you say, there's people hunting on. On one side. I mean, there's also a kind of propagandist element here too, Right. To sort of suggest that well, you know, they've kind of produced this comfortable, settled life. How can we reproduce that and have our own sort of comfortable existence here? And you know, one of the things you really notice that there's a real admiration for indigenous planting. So on the one hand it is this kind of attempt at and knowledge creation, but on the other hand it is this kind of propagandist element to it as well.

[Maddy Pelling]

There's several follow up questions I have about this. But yeah, I think for me what's so striking is that this image, whilst it is representing an indigenous group, it has this sort of visual, I suppose, vernacular of European cartography. It looks like a map of some kind. You know, it's sort of almost aerial view of this settlement and all these different elements, activities going on. I'm really interested in the sort of busyness of it. And Robbie, you mentioned that the language of the Algonkins is verb based and that it's all to do with action and interaction. And that's definitely something that we see here. Talk to me a little bit about how these early colonists perceived the indigenous people that they came across and how they were themselves perceived and if there was animosity and mistrust or indeed if there was cooperation. Because certainly in the conversation that we've had in the previous episode about Eleanor and Virginia Dare, the narrative of those particular figures, particularly in the centuries that follow, is one of a very European centric idea of purity and particularly purity around women's bodies. But this early depiction suggests, as you say, that there is something in the Algonquian way of life to be admired, to be recycled as propaganda. So what is the relationship between these two groups like in the early years of the colony?

[Grainger]

This is the kind of the complexity of these images, I suppose, is that in many ways, in fact, they obfuscate the real conflict that was actually happening. You know, the English had slaughtered a number of leaders at this point already. And, you know, more significantly was the mass death that was occurring amongst the Carolina Algonquins. Coming from disease, it was so extreme. Harriet talks about seeing it happen, seeing all these people dying and seeing how indigenous people, according to him, perceive them to be gods, because they're not dying. So really it's masking what was actually a massive culture of distress that was happening for indigenous communities at that time. At the same time, of course, there are instances of cooperation. You know, we have the instance of Manteo, who was a well known Caroline Algonkin, who kind of helped people survive. So, you know, there was certainly Instances of cooperation. And certainly the colonists could not have survived were it not for indigenous intervention. But again, I think that there's a way that these images kind of mask the actual conflict. And in fact, just to sort of talk a little bit more about their circulation. You know, these were paintings initially by John White, but then they were added to a text by Thomas Harriot in 1590 by Theodore de Brae. And that text is very different from the one that Harriet originally produced without the images. The one without the images kind of shows the complexity of colonial entanglement, the complexity of violence and destruction and distrust on both sides. But the later text with the images produces this document of knowledge and control, in a sense. And Mattie drew attention to the sort of the perspective of this image. Well, it's a very much all encompassing perspective. It's not only showing us what to see, but it's showing us how we should see it. And that sort of European gaze in this instance, this is kind of an early example of what we can call like ethnography. Right. And which is this desire to sort of to know the other and in a sense, to possess and to produce.

[Maddy Pelling]

The other and to categorize it as well. Right. And certainly that's how these images are organized. You know, we've got images of group fishing going on. We've got what looks like a sort of a death house or an ossuary that is cut in this kind of cross section way. Everything is categorized into aspects of life. We've got village life, we've got hunting, we've got fishing, we've got death. We've got different kinds of people. I'm looking at one here of what I assume is a mother and child walking together. And as a historian who is interested in who works on. Who looks to recover the histories of indigenous people, do you find these images useful for talking about the daily lives of these people? Are they helpful documents?

[Grainger]

Well, I mean, first, I'll clarify. I'm not technically a historian. I'm a literary scholar. So, you know, I. I will leave that to the proper historians, in a sense. But. But yes, I mean, I think they are absolutely useful documents. You know, I think that there's a way that we can read these things both with and against the grain. Right. You know, I think there's a lot that we can learn about material culture through looking at these. Their tattooed bodies are very important and fascinating. You mentioned the image of the woman with the child. That child is holding a European doll. Right. So that is itself a fascinating moment. Of sort of transcultural encounter, you know, what did that child think of that doll? Who made that doll for that child?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. And especially interesting thinking about the potential fate of the European colonists at Roanoke. Right. And their possible integration into these communities afterwards.

[Grainger]

Totally. Totally. Yeah. No. So I mean, I think on the one hand I do think that they are representations that are very exemplary of colonial power and control. But at the same time, that's not to say that that's all that they are. I think that they are much more complicated for sure. Thank you.

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[Anthony Delaney]

So we focused an awful lot on the settlers coming to Roanoke. Okay. And what you said is, we want to reframe that concentration. And you've already mentioned Manteo. So I'd be really interested to know about the two Algonkians who come to London and what they experience and what their experiences were when they were there. Can you tell us a little bit more about them? Because there's two, right, not just Manteo.

[Grainger]

That's right, yeah. We have Manteo and Monchese. They are two high ranking Carolina Algonquian men, not leaders themselves, but related to power. I believe that Manteo's mother actually was quite a powerful leader. And Juan Chese was close to Wingina, one of the other sort of leaders. But yeah, so they. They went to Europe, to England, rather. They stayed in Sir Walter Raleigh's house on the Strand with Thomas Harriot, who himself, I guess we haven't really spoken about Harriet, but Harriet was sort of a member of Raleigh's household. He was, you know, kind of a fascinating figure, quite obscure in some ways, but, you know, a mathematician, an astronomer, and as it turns out, a linguist. So the reason they sent these two men over was in part to advertise the colony to say, like, look at these wonderful people that live here and to show them to many hundreds and thousands of people in London, which they did. The speculation actually may have met Queen Elizabeth, but I don't think that that's certain. But in any case, they sat for some time with Thomas Harriot and they sort of taught each other their languages. And Harriet then came up with this sort of orthography, the syllabary, which recorded their Algonquian language. And that's kind of how that story has been told. But actually, both men were quite directly involved in producing that syllabary as well. So it was kind of a mutual effort. And that document itself now is this kind of transcultural surviving document in London that records their language. But what's interesting is that Menteo is very much an Anglophile, and I think that's why he was chosen to go over. You know, he's clearly, he. He was later converted when he returned to the colonies and throughout the rest of his life stayed very loyal to England. So when he went over, he kind of saw this incredible power and technology that was potential in sort of the English pursuit of. Of the colonies. And he was kind of. He was with it, he was like, yeah, well, that's something that I can kind of use for my people. Whereas Juan Chesi saw English power, and his reaction, which I suppose historic history would prove him a bit more correct, was that this is very menacing. This is very alarming. And he kind of became quite disaffected already while in England, according to sources, if we're sort of, again, reading between the lines and he comes back to the colonies and Monchese leaves, he's, like, done with the English and, in fact, later would lead forces against them, whereas Manteo sort of remained faithful throughout the rest of his life.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's really surprising to me, actually, the way that you're describing those interactions and those exchanges, actually. And the balance of power is not quite what I expect it to be. And it's not the same narrative that we get in later centuries. And, you know, based on very good evidence, in our previous conversation, we talked about the sort of symbolic mirroring of Virginia Dare on the one hand and Pocahontas on the other, and how they are certainly in the centuries afterwards, kind of woven together in terms of their story, but how Virginia Dare becomes this figure in the North American landscape of sort of European purity. And Pocahontas then goes to England and that sort of cultural exchange there. And we're getting something like that here. But you paint a much more complicated story, Robbie. And do you see that intellectual exchange, the mutual interest on both sides? Is that surprising to you, or is that something that you come across all the time in your studies?

[Grainger]

Indigenous life in the Americas was something that was, and this is obviously a vast generalization, but something that was. Was, by and large, very multicultural. Indigenous people were very cosmopolitan and very interested in encountering others and learning from others. And we see this through adoption practices, through sort of taking on different. Different forms of technology and aesthetics. And that's very much a part of Eastern Algonquian life, too. They even have stories of travel. A lot of sort of the cosmic vision of the universe is built around people who have traveled somewhere and brought something back. So I think it's very much a part of their kind of ontology to want to travel, to learn from others, and to take that back. And we see sort of two different men that kind of take it in different ways, obviously. But nonetheless, I think there's a kind of indigenous cosmopolitan that we really see throughout. Throughout history. So in that sense, no, it's not. It's not surprising.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a great phrase. I love that Indigenous cosmopolitan. That's New to me. I haven't heard that before. And I like what it conjures up. It's a very simple way of bringing together a very nuanced and very exciting history, actually, and maybe a history that many people might have very easily overlooked. But let's talk about when Montejo and Ronchese come back. What did they bring with them from England, from Europe? What was the impact on them and then their cultures?

[Grainger]

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's a great question. I think that we don't know, I guess is. Is one answer. But definitely, you know, as I said, Mateo sees in European technology a kind of access to power, which is a kind of underlying system of thought. And among the Eastern Algonquians is how does one access a kind of power, a kind of spiritual power? And so he sees them as a kind of means to that. He sees collaboration as a kind of means to that one. Chesy, as I said, comes back with a deep skepticism. We can't know for certain, but you can only imagine the experience of these men going into a city like London, which at that time already had over 100,000 people in it. I can only imagine it was pretty filthy and smelly compared to what they were used to. So no doubt they would have brought that back as well, which I think, again, in one, Chase's case probably would have. Would have chastened him. You know, the fragrant smells of London. So, yeah, and I mean, materially, I think at this point, there wasn't so much, like, in terms of material exchange between the cultures. I don't think that they necessarily took much of that on, but definitely the intellectual experience of it would have been profound.

[Maddy Pelling]

You paint, Robbie, a really complicated and nuanced picture of the political landscape, the cultural landscape that's existing between these two cultures as they interact, both in England and, of course, in North America. Thinking about the backdrop of violence, of the spreading of disease, but also of this intellectual curiosity on both sides and this attempt at cooperation and recording and all of that. When we come to a story like Roanoke, we have different versions that have passed into myth. And one of the most popular, of course, is that the European colonists were potentially attacked and killed by the indigenous people. Other stories suggest that the men from the colony were killed and that the women were integrated in some way into the community. What do you think is a likely reality there? And will we ever be able to access something close to the truth?

[Grainger]

I mean, I think part of the problem is how we kind of think about this sort of history. There's an Anishinaabe historian named Jean o' Brien, and she talks about colonial history as told by sort of European scholars or predominantly American scholars, as firsting and lasting. So in this, in the case of Roanoke, it's this kind of, this first instance of European civilization. That's the only. That's the real true origin of the nation. And lasting means the elimination of the indigenous people that were there. That's a narrative that comes out in the 19th century. You know, I look at the story of the lost colony and I wonder why isn't this an indigenous story? Like, why do we talk about those people and not the many, many more people who died and also survived? You know, the land around there was and is Indigenous space. And I think to me, pretty clearly what happens, you know, whether that's material or symbolically, is that those people disappear back into Indigenous space. My strong suspicion from what I know from Algonkian cultures and indeed other indigenous cultures of the Eastern seaboard, is that most likely those people would have been taken into the communities, married and adopted in. We see that happening for hundreds of years after that. So I mean, why not then? But yeah, I think, I think in general, the pursuit of the answer to that is kind of part of the problem when actually we can just think about it differently as an indigenous story and maybe actually slightly differently, as well as a rare instance in early encounter of Indigenous victory.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, it's interesting because we spoke to Dr. Misha Yuan about how the idea of Eleanor and Virginia Dare and this lost colony has shaped the idea of white Americana and how that has been used as a myth making tool, I suppose, in terms of, and often for very nefarious purposes to build this idea of what American in quotes should be. I'd be interested to know if this encounter and these encounters have in any way shaped Algonquian Indigenous Native American cultures. Do they exist in the lore? Do they persist in any of the stories, the cultural impacts that might have happened over generations? Or is this a very one sided exchange ultimately?

[Grainger]

I mean, first of all, most of those cultures were so sort of fragmented and broken up that it's hard to say what survives. But there certainly are still indigenous people around there. But we know that in the 18th century, I believe it was John Lawson, who was a sort of writer, colonist, explorer type thing. He went to the site of where the settlements were and whatnot and spoke to indigenous people and claimed that there were accounts of stories of sort of white origins or white ancestors and all that kind of stuff. So so, you know, it's no doubt made its way into that which survived.

[Anthony Delaney]

But seems a lot more assimilationist, right, in terms of those where it's almost taken within, and you've been saying this too many where it goes within, whereas in that kind of idea of a white American, it seems to separate out a little bit more and go, ah, keep those histories separate. Whereas what you're talking about there, Robbie, seems to be far more assimilationist in terms of bringing those histories together.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's interesting, Robbie, in your work that's predominantly on the 18th century, you look at the idea of the modern self, the birth of this modern world, and people's understanding not only of their national identity, but of sort of community identity and personal identity and how that sits alongside the concept of the savage. And I wonder, in terms of the myths around Roanoke that have been built up. I'm thinking particularly of the 19th century, really, and this separation off of the white colonists and the indigenous people and the mystery at its heart, that disappearance that you describe so brilliantly as being sort of absorption into indigenous land and space. But in terms of 19th century retellings, it's quite predatory, it's very sinister. And it's often the white women who are seen as victims of that, or symbols of the purity to be protected. And I wonder if the history and the myth of Roanoke is an early moment when this idea of modernity and savagery of America and who Americans are, is that a sort of turning point? Is it something that people have latched onto? Or do you see it as being a separate history compared to what comes later in the 18th and 19th centuries? How does it fit in with your work?

[Grainger]

I mean, I think you're right that it's definitely the later legacy of it that transforms it into that in the 19th century. As you suggest, white women, particularly in captivity narratives as well, are seen as the sort of the bearers of the crucible of the nation. Right? Like the nation emerges out of the seeds that they plant. So in that sense, it's. It's very much a part of that narrative. But before that time, I don't think that it was necessarily that big of a deal. It seems to have been made narratively more central later, and I think earlier, much like Pocahontas, these stories were just kind of one of many, one of many nascent possibilities for the future, whereas later they become sort of codified, solidified in the 19th century.

[Anthony Delaney]

Robbie, where, because this is so fascinating and so many new ideas have come up for me as well, if people are interested in reading a little bit more on this or reading a little bit more of your work, where would you suggest that they go in the first instance?

[Grainger]

So about Roanoke, there's a really good history book called the Head in Edward Nugent's Hands by Michael Leroy Orberg, which sort of talks about the people like before the colonists came and then also more importantly the period just before the founding of the Roanoke colony, which were very fraught and culminated with a man beheading one of the indigenous leaders and they put his head on a spike outside of this sort of early, early settlement. So that's the kind of precedent were before this kind of lost colony. So that's a really good, good work. I mean, I have a book called the Savage and Modern Self that is about the role that indigenous people play in the kind of formation of British identity. And I actually have an article coming out about that. It's a little bit about the John White depiction of the funerary practices of indigenous people. It's about sort of the origins of the interest in indigenous people as objects, as in producing indigenous people as a kind of object to be collected, which of course leads to the literal collection of indigenous human remains in the in the 18th and 19th centuries.

[Maddy Pelling]

Robbie, thank you so much for your insights and your time today. If you've enjoyed this episode of After Dark, you can write in to [e-mail] Leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts and if you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to subscribe.

[Robbie Richardson]

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