Most Famous Murder In Ancient Egypt

Summary

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Podcast Summary: After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode: Most Famous Murder In Ancient Egypt (June 18, 2026)

Host: Anthony Delaney
Guest: Dr. Campbell Price

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into one of the most notorious episodes of Ancient Egyptian history: the assassination of Pharaoh Ramesses III, known as the Harem Conspiracy. Host Anthony Delaney is joined by Egyptologist Dr. Campbell Price to unravel the political intrigue, dynastic struggles, magical thinking, and archaeological evidence that surround this dramatic event, highlighting both historical context and the enduring mysteries that captivate scholars and the public alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Ramesses III and His Era

• Ramesses III: Not the most famous (that’s Ramesses II), but Ramesses III “is Egypt’s last hero” (14:35). He modeled himself on his namesake, trying to recapture the fading glory of the previous era.
• The 20th Dynasty Context: Egypt is under internal and external stress, marked by invasions (e.g., the Sea Peoples), dynastic upheaval, and socio-economic decline. The succession was not straightforward—unlike primogeniture, there was ambiguity and frequent contestation for the throne.
  • Quote: “There are 30 dynasties, plus the Ptolemies. We're kind of two thirds the way through in terms of time and numbering.” (10:15 – Dr. Price)

[05:53] – 12:36: Understanding Egypt’s Decline and Dynastic Shift

• Ramesses III’s reign is characterized by imitation of past grandeur but also by underlying fragility in the state.

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2. Life at Court and Social Tensions

• Daily Reality and Upheaval: The episode highlights unique insights into workers’ lives at Deir el-Medina, the village of tomb builders, preserved by chance and providing evidence for labor unrest.
  • First Recorded Strike: “Things get so bad that the supply of rations breaks down, and there is the first recorded strike in human history. This is in the reign of Ramesses III.” (21:22 – Dr. Price)
• The system of succession created tension; not all royal children were guaranteed futures or power.

[18:18] – 22:46: Socio-Economic Stress and the Seeds of Conspiracy

• The palace was a place of intrigue, shifting loyalties, and political plotting, especially where succession was uncertain.

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3. The Harem Conspiracy: Who, Why, and How?

• Origins: The so-called harem conspiracy was not a simple case of “wives locked away”—women held significant power and managed businesses.
• Main Figures:
  • Tiye (Tiy/T): A secondary royal wife, “takes matters into her own hands” as the likely ringleader of the coup (35:16).
  • Pentaweret: Her son, positioned as an alternative heir.
    • “She seems to be the ringleader ... and she’s using these networks to position her son, who is not supposed to be the heir.” (35:16 – Anthony Delaney)
• Courtly Machinations: Tiye recruited influential courtiers, especially those closest to the king, such as butlers, to carry out the attack.
  • Quote: “The people who are literally giving him a drink are the ones most effective to bump him off.” (37:22 – Dr. Price)

[26:01] – 39:51: The Assassination Attempt(s)

• Plan and Attempt: The coup was planned for the grand Heb Sed festival (regnal year 30+)—a moment of royal vulnerability and transition.
• Magic and Murder: Initial attempts reportedly involved black magic before turning to outright assassination.

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4. The Evidence: Archaeology and Ancient Documents

• Papyrus Account: The main evidence is a rare and remarkable papyrus, not a court transcript but a list of perpetrators and their punishments.
  • Quote: “We have a list of the culprits and what happens to them.” (33:00 – Dr. Price)
• Fate of Ramesses III:
  • For years, his manner of death was debated—only modern CT scanning revealed his “throat was cut beyond reasonable doubt.” (41:01)
  • Quote: “He was, you know, given the chop in the bloodiest way... also had one of his toes chopped off.” (42:06 – Dr. Price)
• Fate of the Conspirators: Varied from forced suicide (“decorously... take your own life”) to mutilation (nose/ears removed) and damnatio memoriae (erasure or alteration of names).
  • Quote: “Their names have been changed... a guy whose name meant ‘Ra loves him’ was changed to ‘Ra hates him.’” (48:27 – Dr. Price)

[39:51] – 55:17: Archaeological and Forensic Revelations

• Dramatic juxtaposition between the idealized, god-like imagery of the pharaoh and the literal, unsettling appearance of his mummy, famously linked (via Winifred Brunton’s portrait) to Boris Karloff’s look in “The Mummy” (1932).

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5. The Legacy and Meaning of the Harem Conspiracy

• Aftermath & Display: The body of Ramesses III can be seen on display in Cairo; the display and study of royal mummified remains raises ethical questions.
  • Quote: “We have... robbed that [dignity] from these particular individuals ... we've literally unraveled that dignity, that secrecy.” (56:26 – Anthony Delaney)
• On Document Survival: The papyrus document is rare and precious—such sources enable rare “time travel” for historians (67:26).
• Speculation on Ancient Belief/Skepticism: Evidence exists for ancient skepticism regarding royal divinity, though outright disbelief might not have been openly expressed.
  • Quote: “‘It doesn't surprise him that ancient Egyptians believed the king was a God, but it seems far fetched that the king himself would believe he was a God.’” (64:31 – quoting Nobel laureate Nagib Mahfouz, cited by Dr. Price)
• Reflections on Historical Method: Comparing ancient and modern records highlights the limits and possibilities of the historian’s craft.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Drama of Succession

• “I don't think there wasn't—well, there was a designated heir, like a crown prince … It wasn't necessarily the eldest son that got the throne. So that creates this level of uncertainty, which … really fires the situation that leads to the demise of Ramesses at this particular time.”
  — Dr. Campbell Price [10:18]

On Ancient Strikes

• “We know that things get so bad that rations … break down and there is the first recorded strike in human history. This is in the reign of Ramses III.”
  — Dr. Campbell Price [21:22]

On the Sensational Papyrus

• “The really creepy detail is in the document ... sometimes it deprives them of their names, which is really a kind of kick in the culprit when they're down.”
  — Dr. Campbell Price [48:27]

On the Ethical Dilemmas of Archeology

• “We’ve literally unraveled that dignity, that secrecy. … It’s so tricky, isn’t it? Because here we are, if that was on display somewhere, I would probably go and see it out of curiosity … but ... we have, I suppose, robbed that from these individuals.”
  — Anthony Delaney [56:26]

On the Value of Primary Sources

• “It is really thrilling to find something that almost step by step ... as much as you can in ancient [history], takes you through. And this is why historians love primary source material, because it takes you back in time.”
  — Anthony Delaney [67:26]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [05:53] – Egypt in Decline; Dynastic Context
• [14:35] – Legacy of Ramesses III, Defining His Reputation
• [21:22] – Labor Unrest and the First Recorded Strike
• [26:01] – The Harem Conspiracy Unpacked; Female Power in the Palace
• [33:00] – The Papyrus of the Conspiracy: Court Intrigue Detailed
• [39:51] – The Assassination: Magic, Murder, and Modern Forensics
• [48:27] – Punishments for the Conspirators
• [53:22] – The Mummy, Pop Culture, and Ethics of Display
• [64:31] – Ancient Skepticism and Divine Kingship
• [67:26] – The Allure of Missing Documents; Value of Primary Sources

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Final Thoughts

• The assassination of Ramesses III is not only ancient Egypt’s most famous murder but also a vivid microcosm of ancient court life, power struggles, and the intersection of myth, history, and modern science.
• The episode deftly blends archaeological science, historical narrative, and critical reflection, bringing a storied past vibrantly to life, while also confronting the enduring mysteries and the ethical puzzles involved in unearthing and interpreting the distant past.

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Socials:

• Anthony Delaney: @AnthonyDelaneyHistory (Instagram)
• Dr. Campbell Price: @gyptmcr

For further episode ideas or correspondence: [e-mail]

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Transcript

[Livy Dunn]

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[Dr. Campbell Price]

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[Livy Dunn]

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[Dr. Campbell Price]

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[Anthony Delaney]

Over 3,000 years ago, in the heart of ancient Egypt, a pharaoh was murdered. Not on the battlefield, not by a foreign enemy, but from within his own household. A conspiracy involving royal wives, trusted officials, even members of his inner court. And for centuries, no one could prove whether the assassination had actually succeeded. Until now. Today, we are joined by Dr. Campbell Price to unravel one of ancient Egypt's most chilling mysteries. The Harem Conspiracy. Who was behind the plot? How close did they come to seizing the throne? And what can archaeology teach us about the trials that followed? This is the assassination of Ramesses iii. Welcome to After D. Hello, and welcome to After Dark. I'm Anthony, and as you know, Maddy has been rewilding the meadows of Great Britain. And she will be back soon. But we will leave her to her task as we continue with stories and histories from the darker side of the past. And in this episode, we will be discussing one of the most famous murders in ancient Egypt, the assassination of Ramses III. And who better, once more, to help us than Dr. Campbell Price? Who is an Egyptologist, as you well know, because we've had Campbell on quite a bit on After Dark. He's one of our favorites. He is also the curator of Egypt and Sudan at Manchester Museum and honorary research fellow at University of Liverpool. And he is our Go to Egypt expert, as you know. His newest book is Brief Ancient Egypt, and he also has a children's book out with Greg Jenner. And there is a new book in the works, campbel, next year, I believe, and I'm very, very excited about that. We'll have you back on then. How is it going? Before we get into today's. Are you despairing yet or are you all right?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

I'm despairing constantly. You know what the writing process is like. It's a constant internal battle. But coming on podcasts like this really are great for clearing and clarifying your thinking.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know. I find it really useful, you know, if I'm stuck in the writing process, which I am myself in the middle, although nowhere near as close to finishing as you are. But you're writing, you're writing, you're writing, you're in the world, you're in the world, you're in the world. And then you have to go into the real world and meet people. And actually, it's good to have that to do where you're like, okay. And I know you're in the museum anyway, so you have that all the time. But, you know, for me, it's a bit of a godsend sometimes. Right, let's get onto this assassination, the most famous murder in ancient Egypt. My producers tell me, who was Ramses III and why? It's a name I'm familiar with. Well, is it a name I'm familiar with, actually, because he's the third. So which of the Ramesses am I familiar with? But actually, why does he linger with us today, if indeed he does?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Well, Anthony, we've got 11 Ramesses to choose from. 11? Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right. Okay.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So if people have heard the name, they'll probably be thinking of Ramesses ii. Ramesses the Great.

[Anthony Delaney]

I see.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

And that's important because Ramesses the Great lives in the previous century to our Ramesses. And Ramses III is something of a fanboy for Ramses II and a lot of Ramesses III's monumental work, some of his battles, many of his children's names, and his architectural choices are directly related to the great Ramesses. So I think we've got to see him as someone trying to get back to these glory days of Pharaonic history, when things are Already definitely on the slide. And that's what makes Ramesses III actually much more intriguing than Ramses ii.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. This is a very different time. We're going to talk about some of those things that are starting to unravel. We are in and around 1155 BCE for this particular history. So over 3000 years ago now. But just before we get into the nitty gritty of this episode, Ramses, Ramesses, we were having a brief discussion before we started. It's a pronunciation quabble rather than it being different people.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Or is it?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

It's a pronunciation thing and we can't know for sure. The Rame Ramesses, best known Ramesses the Great Ramesses II actually changes his own name partway through his reign.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So he goes from Ramessu to Ramesses and then Ramesses is the one that sticks. So that's why I'm saying Ramesses, not Ramses.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's very. The artist formerly known as Prince of him to do it. Although less of a departure, I suppose. Right, let's get onto this assassination. And before we do, I want to talk about Egypt at this particular time. You mentioned already, Campbell, that we are dealing with maybe not the glorious empire that we might be a little bit more familiar with. We have some difficulties and tensions around this time. 1155 BCE.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes. Geopolitically, this is an interesting time. In the Bronze Age, different powers and balances of power are shifting. In the Mediterranean and the Eastern Mediterranean, there are groups like the Sea Peoples on the go. So this is a group of island based people like the Peleset. They're moving around the Eastern Mediterranean and the Egyptians perceive them as a threat. Okay, so there's the geopolitical stuff. Then there is Egypt's internal dynastic history. Best to acknowledge that first. So Ramesses II rules for the earlier part of the 1200s BCE and he rules for 66 years. So he's an old man when he eventually shuffles off the mortal coil and becomes a full God. And he's managed to outlive no fewer than 12 of his sons. So that creates a kind of a situation where the 13th son eventually inherits the throne and just power structures are shaken a bit. So there are a series of not very good kings, to put it simply. After Ramses II, he is Dynasty 19 and there's a change of dynasty, so there's a new family comes in, new bloodline, this kind of Araviste guy called Sethnacht who says, I'm the king now and it's his son who is Ramesses iii. So we've got to understand Ramesses III is a bit of a new kid on the block thinking, right, I need to prove myself. His dad doesn't live very long. Sethnacht isn't around for very long. So he goes to the blueprint Rulebook of Kingship, which is in recent memory, Ramesses ii. And that's something to bear in mind. People will remember Ramesses ii. He's in living memory. So I don't know. I don't want to force the analogy, but Ramses II is kind of an Elizabeth II character who rules so long. People associate the whole idea of monarchy with that person. It's difficult, no matter how good you are, to come on, maybe later in life after that. So basically, that sets the tone for the next few days, decades. And Ramesses III opens his show, starts his reign in this milieu, and of

[Anthony Delaney]

course, it's not, like you said there, it's not the same dynasty. So to push that analogy further, and apologies, because I know you don't want to stick to it too much, but, you know, at least with Elizabeth ii, her son inherits the throne. And, yes, okay, that does happen with Ramesses ii, But by the time we get to Ramesses iii, we're into a new dynasty, which prompts another Tangen. Brace yourselves. We'll get back onto the topic in just a second. How many dynasties were there?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

But your tangent questions are always very good.

[Anthony Delaney]

Not all.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So that was something I was thinking would be a good illustration. So I'm glad you've reminded me. So Ramesses iii is dynasty 20, and we have 30 dynasties, plus the Ptolemies. Right, right. So we're kind of two thirds the way through in terms of time and in terms of the numbering of the dynasties. Another point, which I think we're going to come back to, which is really the crux of the action of the bloody action, is that in ancient Egypt, I don't think there wasn't. Well, there was a designated heir, like a crown prince. It's not. This guy is the Prince of Wales and we just acknowledge him. No, no. And I think. Well, maybe it was actually in the more recent years of the British royal family that people died like fairly senior members of the royal family. The children died. So there were shifts. It wasn't necessarily the eldest son that got the throne. So I think that creates this level of uncertainty, which. That uncertainty really fires the situation that leads to the demise of Ramesses at this particular time.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, okay. I mean, yeah, you don't need to go back too far in British monarchical history. If you think about the 17th century, we have people who are commoners assuming the, the position of a king in all but name. But we also have different, not firstborn children taking the throne. I'm thinking about William and Mary, particularly there, and ousting, you know, so, so well, Mary was firstborn, but she wasn't the firstborn son. Anyway, look, I'm just saying you don't actually have to go back that far, even in the British monarchical tradition to find that this is a strategic position as well as an inherited one. And it's actually only now that it's, it's, it's way less strategic. Okay, so I have here a little passage that was written when Ramesses III was crowned, and it says that four doves were, quote, dispatched to the four corners of the horizon to confirm that the living Horus, Ramesses iii, is still in possession of his throne. That the order of Maat prevails in the cosmos and, and society. This is quite grand.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, Typical for an ancient Egyptian that. I mean, that quotation is maybe from a slightly older translation, but basically the idea is when the king comes to the throne, he is the king immediately. I don't think the ancient Egyptians really went in for what we would call a coronation. I see in Westminster Abbey kind of style. But I mean, you saw with the fairly recent coronation of Charles iii, there is very, very, very ancient symbolism embedded in that kind of ritual. And you see it there in that quotation. There is something about the king being announced and proclaimed and claiming his right in the four cardinal directions. So there are scenes in temples where you see the king looking like he's doing baseball. And it's basically to hit a. Whatever you do in baseball, hit a.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure, that home run.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Home run in the four cardinal directions. Not a baseball aficionado, but unlike me, of course, but this idea of the ancient Egyptians are very keen on this. Cardinal directions represent totality. So the four directions, north, east, south, west, this stakes your claim. So the state level jargon, the kind of discourse, who knows what people were talking about in the farmers fields. But at the state level, on the temples of the king, you get these very bombastic statements. Whether or not the king was really so great, whether he was battling or actually performing these rituals, is kind of by the by.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right. Okay, I see. Now, although he is no Ramesses ii, he's not so bad. I know we're in decline here. Ramesses iii, I mean, no.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

And I think for some Egyptologists, he is Egypt's last hero, he's the last of the great kings of the New Kingdom. So this bracketing of time where we've got Hatshepsut, we've got Thutmose iii, the so called Napoleon of ancient Egypt, we've got Tutankhamun, we've got Akhenaten, we at

[Anthony Delaney]

Ramesses ii, God, there's a lot of big names there.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, that's a lot in a relatively short period. So in a way, Egypt was such a powerful entity that it was difficult to keep that level of dominance up. And I think Ramesses III did okay. And interestingly, thinking architecturally, so Ramesses II built this magnificent temple, his mansion of millions of years. So this is sometimes refer to in the literature as a mortuary temple, a funerary temple. It's nothing to do with mortuary rituals or death really, or funerals. It is to do with the king existing as a God. So this is the key thing, the king is a God after death, he will be fully socialized amongst the gods. And so you need a building in which to celebrate this. So Ramesses II makes this massive mansion of millions of years. Ramses III comes along and thinks, right, we're gonna have a carbon copy of this pretty much. And so Ramesses III's temple is one of the best preserved temples in all of Egypt. Because of chance, there was a massive Coptic Christian community lived there and they plonked their houses around the ancient wall. So inadvertently, although they hated the pagans, they saved Ramses temple. So Ramses III's temple. So when you want to get a sense of what might a temple have been like in really Ancient Egypt, Ramses III's one in the west bank of Luxor is your best bet is the

[Anthony Delaney]

place to go, you know, and this is terrible. I've never been to Egypt. I should.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

I was about to ask you that before.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, I've never been.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

I should go.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And this is one of the problems with hosting this podcast. People, come on. And I'm just like, I need to go now to sub Saharan Africa and explore that civilization. And I'm just like, where am I going to get the time to do all of this? And the money, not to mention.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

But yes, you could write on the plane. It's useful.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's more the money that actually probably realistically of all the traveling I want to do.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

One of the things of Ramesses III's which we might come on to, you know, he's got a fair bit of statuary, you can now see that shown to great advantage in the Grand Egyptian Museum. So this only opened fully last November. So in terms of, you know, if you're a fan of museums, I know a lot of people who have been saying I'm going to go to Egypt, I'm going to go to Egypt, I'm going to go to Egypt. And they've been waiting till the Grand Museum is open. So it's open now, so there's no excuse.

[Anthony Delaney]

Come here, tell me this again tangent. How much does it cost to go to Egypt nowadays? Like a flight not accommodation. We can sort that ourselves.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Well with the current political situation, I'm not sure you can get a flight from Manchester. You used to be able to for £350.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. Return.

[Livy Dunn]

Yeah.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So it's not absolutely extortionate. And when you're in Egypt it's fairly easy with some good advice to live cheaply. And Egypt is a wonderful place. So if you've not been consider going now is your time.

[Anthony Delaney]

Little did you now probably isn't your time actually.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Well no.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well yes.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

When the jet fuel runs out.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. You didn't realize you were going to come on here to sell Egypt to people, did you?

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

No.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

I'm sure the Egyptian tourism industry, they'll

[Anthony Delaney]

be getting in touch with you very shortly.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Thank you. The least I can do.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now we have this idea that he is not all that bad. That he has some grand ideas about building this temple that you mentioned that some people are going, you know what, things aren't going great. But this in terms of. But there are some people who are like we need to get rid of this guy.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

So there is some rumbling.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

And is this not just because of the economic struggles that are in this particular pharaonic era but in general that over a few generations. But is there anything particular that he's doing that people don't like that they're turning on him?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Specifically at this time it's difficult to see him doing anything that other kings aren't doing. He seems to kind of, as I say, stick by the rulebook set by Ramses ii. But one thing we do know is we have a really well unique insight into everyday socio economic reality in the workers town that services the building of the tombs in the Valley of the Kings. So if you imagine you've got the king in the palace and he's probably moving around quite a bit as is traditional in other monarchies of more recent times. So he's doing his progress. There's not much actual evidence for how he lives his life. But the people who are building the royal tomb in the Valley of the Kings are stuck in one little village which once it's abandoned, eventually, not that long after the death of Ramses iii, all that stuff is left and all their notes and all their tombs and their chapels and their houses are preserved. So that is a really valuable insight into what is happening then. So we have an unusual insight into labour relations. This was the PhD subject of my PhD supervisor. So it's something I've heard a lot about. So you have the gang who work for the king, or not directly for the king, for the vizier, who is the top guy, the prime minister, if you like. And it is the vizier's responsibility to organize the people and make sure the people are paid, because they are living not in a lush arable environment, they're living on the edge of the desert in order to build the tomb which is in the desert age. So they are in a totally artificial and supplied state. Supplied environment. So if you don't have enough bread, you can't go and buy some bread. You've got to bread, add water brought to you. And so we know through this very detailed document, documentation from the town, it's called Deir el Medina in modern Arabic, the village, the village next to the Valley of the Kings. We know that things get so bad that rations, the supply of rations breaks down and there is the first recorded strike in human history.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, I didn't know.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

This is in the reign of Ramses iii. So think about how important that is to modern political history.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

And social history. And you know, of this country, the first time people say, hang on, and they say no to power. We're not doing it. We're putting our tools down. And they go and they protest. And the vizier says, okay, well, I'll get you some stuff and carry on. Because it's so embarrassing that the king's tomb, it's not just. They're building a motorway.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

They are building the tomb of a God. And if you stop building the tomb, you're compromising the full deification of the king.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're questioning that authority, you're questioning that positioning socially in terms of belief systems.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

It's a big deal.

[Anthony Delaney]

It starts to become bricks and mortar. Well, I mean, not bricks and mortar, but it starts to become a piece of a thing rather than a belief system. It's just a human construction then. So the divine goes out of it almost.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Indeed. So you can go and visit the tomb of Ramses III at the Valley of the Kings. Now it's been known since the very early days of Egyptology, what we might call Egyptology. So you know the 1700s. So it's been exposed for a long time and it's a big thing. So it would take a lot of effort to build. So you can just imagine walking through it. At some point the sculptors and the masons downed their tools and said nope, not doing it. So that's a very brave thing to do.

[Anthony Delaney]

Radical.

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Yeah.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

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[Anthony Delaney]

So they we have that unrest at one part of. Of the social scale. And then I have this idea which I don't know the ins and outs totally of, but the idea of the conspiracy of the harem or the harem conspiracy or so. So that sounds interesting in itself. Again, I don't know the details, but I just want to the impression that it gives me. It sounds like this is gonna be very female led that it's going to be again and we'll talk about this and you'll correct all the things I'm getting wrong. But it also sounds that it somehow is quite domestic in a way because we're talking about harem in terms of wives and houses and homes and family units. What exactly is it?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Well, you're right, this is probably the defining moment of Ramesses III's life, is his ultimate leaving of it. So the word harem is problematic in Egyptology because as so often the terminology we use is not based necessarily on the terms the ancient Egyptians might have used. And it's got this rather unintended and unfortunate association with Ottoman Turkish culture where women are locked away. And I don't think the ancient Egyptian court, let's call it that the court was. Was quite like that. We have other evidence for slightly earlier than Ramses III of women in the north of Egypt in a very good agricultural area, the Fayoum, basically managing a major textile business. So it flips any idea of these women are sealed away and they're not allowed to talk to anyone and they're attended by eunuchs. Actually they're running a pretty, pretty impressive, if not industrial certainly production center Anyway, so. So it's more complicated than the women of the. The harem are being locked away. But you're right, there's a domestic situation develops which related to something we said before. You know, there is usually a designated heir but as you said, you know, there's an element of strategy over inheritance. So if you've got. So imagine you're an advanced a year. Imagine you're a king of advancing years and you've got several living children, sons. And you think well, the oldest one is not. Not great. Or the one by the most royal mother. That's probably how we should think of it. Is not the best someone else who I think could do this better. You must make your favorites known or you make your choices or proclivities known. That creates resentment for the mother of the intended heir or the one who's overlooked to be the next king. Because if you are the queen mother, for want of a better term, that is great status. And, you know, you want to be

[Anthony Delaney]

the mother and it's your function as well. And in a society that we're talking about in previous episodes that values usefulness, then for the queen to. Or mother. But the queen, in this instance to produce the heir is very useful that she has fulfilled a big function in that society and then that's been taken away from her.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah. And there is something always on the fringes of any discussion like this. There is some religious, metaphysical consideration where I am going to make this analogy. Yes, I'm going to do it. So later, there is the selection of the sacred APIs bull. So this is a manifestation of the God Ptah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Who's in the north of Egypt at Memphis, and kind of like the Dalai Lama, there's only one living at any one time. And the bull is a God incarnate and is worshipped and is asked questions and just lives a life of luxury. The bull's mother is also worshipped because she has literally sired this young bull. So there is something almost when a king becomes king, his mother, if she wasn't already, becomes by association of divine nature.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yep, yep.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So you could see that there would be a motivating factor here. So Ramesses III lives quite a long life. He is coming up to a very important point in his reign, year 30, which is traditionally the time you celebrate a Heb sed. And Heb sed is a kind of festival of renewal, we might say jubilee, but it's not like barges on the Thames and street parties, although there may have been street parties for the elite. So there seems to be a lot of organizing happening at this time. And this is when some people, and I say people, not just royal ladies, but people in the court, decide this might be the time to bump off Ramesses III and put in place our candidate for the next king.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh. So it wasn't even a case that Ramesses III was going, Jim's my eldest son, but I don't love him very. He's a little. He's a little. He needs a bit of help. But also, we have Mark over here, and I prefer him. So I was of the assumption that that's what was going on. But no, this is. This is like a court deciding we know who our candidate is.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes. I think it's more as you suggest. So there is an heir apparent who does become the next king.

[Anthony Delaney]

Spoiler.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Ramses iv. Surprise, surprise. But there is another candidate who may, for whatever reasons, lost to history, may have been more popular. And so there is a Move in the palace. And by palace, we can almost pinpoint this. When I'm talking about this history, you've got to imagine as probably quite easy for a historian. These kinds of things must have happened a lot. We only get an insight into some of them where there's documentation. Usually in ancient Egypt, there is no documentation. There's a handful of other people where it looks like an assassination. It becomes quite common in the Ptolemaic period, where the Ptolemies are just back stabbing, bloodthirsty people.

[Anthony Delaney]

People are kind of more aware of that.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Right, because there are historians recording it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

There's not a tradition of that. Usually what we have for Ramesses iii, and it is an absolutely astonishing survival of a historical document, there is a list of perpetrators in this harem conspiracy, although let's drop the word harem, this attempt on the King's life. For modern antiquities dealers, it was such a big piece of papyrus, they cut it into different bits and sold it to different people. But now we can. We know. We know based on the handwriting and the context and the contents, we know that it's one document. And this is, it's not really court proceedings. We do occasionally get court proceedings a bit later in Egyptian history. But this is a list of the culprits and what happens to them.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, well, let's start with some of those culprits. I have, I have two main people here that we will, we will unpack in a little bit more detail. Wait, is she a culprit? So, Tye, am I saying that correct?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, we don't know for sure. I would say T. T. Okay, so

[Anthony Delaney]

it's T, I, Y, E, and she's the Queen of Egypt, A secondary wife to Ramesses iii. Wait, Queen of Egypt? Is she the queen of Egypt?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

No, not really. So the queen, there's no word for queen, is king's great wife. So there tends to be only one great king's wife at any one time and she is the top wife, so she would be called the queen. So this is not the queen, it's a secondary wife.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, Right. So she is a secondary wife. What does it mean to be a secondary wife? I'm presuming you're still quite lauded. You still have a bit of influe. You probably have your own court that's around you. What are the limitations there?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Oh, that's a good question, I think. You don't get the public recognition on monuments.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right. So you don't have that potential divinity, if you're providing the heir or whatever. Okay, yes.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Unless the first great royal wife, great king's wife, dies, and then you get a promotion. That happens in the reign of Ramses ii because he lives so long.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

There are several great royal wives, so the average expectation would be, yeah, you live a life of luxury, no doubt, and you have perhaps children with the king. But those children, well, those children just hang around. I mean, this is the problem with royal children that are not in the direct line of succession, that have a job.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Modern echoes of this issue in the uk you then have to kind of keep yourself to yourself. But if you're ambitious, I think you're well connected enough. As seems the case with this conspiracy to make things happen. And this is what T does. She takes matters into her own hands. And based on that documentation that we have, she seems to be the ringleader of what can only be described as a couple.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, I think that's the word. Right. That's what we're looking at here. It's a coup. Now, I love this idea that T is a political figure and that she is working those ties, whatever they might be, whatever courtly machinations that she's going on with, that she is positioning herself and she's using these networks to position her son, who is not supposed to be the heir because she's a secondary wife. So tell us a little bit. Who is he? And tell us a little bit about him.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So this guy, Penta Werrett, is the son of T, and he is in this courtly milieu.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

He.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Well, we don't know really what AG is. He's not a toddler, he's not a child. He's probably, you know, a teenager or on the cusp of adulthood in ancient Egypt. A viable alternative, because remember, we're into year 30 of King Ramesses III. So Ramesses III has been on the throne, he's been around. He's been around. So he must be quite old. So quite legitimately, this son could be in his 20s. So T wants to position him over his half brother, who is ultimately Ramesses iv, to be the next king. And so she. Yeah, enlists the help of other people at court. And this is where this document is very useful because we have a whole list of the people that were involved.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, go on. Who does she get? Because this is. This is no small matter. This could. As soon as she starts mumbling this or whispering this, that could be the end for her. But to a certain extent, for a while at least. Okay, we know that Ramses IV becomes Ramesses IV so this is going to ultimately fail in its desire. But who does she get on board at this point?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So there are the people closest to the king. That's what you want to do if you're going to try and assassinate.

[Anthony Delaney]

So she gets the people closest to the king. So they clearly don't like the heir for whatever reason.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes, there must be some motivation here. That's also a good point. And there must be a lot of politicking going on that we will never know about. So the people closest to the king are those who are regularly in royal service, for want of a better term, the butlers. The people who are literally giving him a drink are the ones who are most effective to bump him off. So there are a number of high officials who must have direct contact with the king. You must be very important to be in that position. You know, it's not an ordinary foot soldier or a scribe, but as you say, if. If you're Queen T and you speak to the wrong person and they report you to someone else, you're for the high jump, I suspect. So the plot clearly develops quite quickly because a large number of people are implicated. So there are dozens of people.

[Anthony Delaney]

Dozens.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So she must get. I mean, just back projecting from what we know happens, she must get. She must be quite charismatic.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I'm imagining so. Yeah.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

And the one, she's the pentueret who she's trying to maneuver into position, he must be viable. But, yeah, it doesn't work out in the end.

[Anthony Delaney]

No. But we do get a very dramatic assassination in a very dramatic setting. So you had mentioned you've already. You've teased us with the idea that There is a 30th anniversary jubilation, Jubilee slash, not Jubilee, occurring there. Heb Sed.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes, Heb Sed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And this is. This is going. This is part of the celebrations are going on. That's what we're celebrating. 30 years of Rama. Some people are celebrating 30 years of Ramesses the third. But this is where the assassination attempt, or the coup, as you've been calling it, it rings very coup. Like, to me, this is where this is supposed to be enacted.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

There seems to be planning around the time of the Jubilee. Not Jubilee, the Hebshead. Because it seems he lives into past year 31.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So there's something has happened. Perhaps an attempt has happened, who knows? But the first attempts don't seem to be physical. They seem to be using black magic.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So there are magicians involved who take, you know, this is known from other contexts. Where you take an image of someone you want to do harm to and you do things to the image and you hope that that's gonna have an effect on the living person. Remember, we're talking about the king of Egypt, who is the ultimate conduit between humanity and the gods. So maybe metaphysically, he has got protection that the conspirators hadn't thought of. So ultimately, up until fairly recently, the last 15 years, it was assumed that Ramses III had survived the attempt and the documentation related to people who were caught trying to kill him. But as I say, with ancient Egypt, in some cases, quite astonishingly, we've got, you know, the tombs of the people, we've got these accounts, detailed documents about what happened in Liverpool World Museum. There is belt, one of the most beautiful pieces of ancient embroidery with Ramses III's name on it. So we've got his clothing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, it's from the time. It's like merch.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

No, no, it's not merch. It must be from his time. And we have his body. So not only do we have the stories, the documents, the monuments, the history, we have the people, the protagonists themselves, those that were allowed and were treated to the full ritual of mummification. So Ramesses III's body was examined previously, it was assumed he had not died a violent death. But this maybe sounds a note of caution about the reliability of some of these examinations, that it was only recently that CT scans, which themselves can be, you know, not entirely reliable, the CT scan data showed he'd had his throat cut beyond reasonable doubt. And lots of biomedical people have looked at it, and it does seem to be clear he was, you know, given the chop in the bloodiest way. So he also had one of his toes chopped off.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right. I mean, you could survive that now.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, not a throat thing, but having your throat cut. Yeah, you're not coming back from that. So what then happens? I mean, the plot must be discovered pretty soon because immediately Ramesses IV seems to take the throne. And it is him who says. It is he who says. Right. All of you people have suspected you. You're now going to be tried for these crimes. And you can imagine, killing a God king, regicide in ancient Egypt is a pretty serious matter. It's not a minor misdemeanor. So in this transcription, not of the court proceedings, I say, but as I say, it's a list of the people, the dozens of people, if you were lucky, you got to take your own life.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, I've seen this in. In other. It's a It's, it's a punishment that's almost gifted to you in a way to punish yourself in many ways. But I just want to go back to one thing, Campbell, which I think is so utterly fascinating. And I think it's when historians come together on these things and they work on vastly different time periods, it can be so enlightening. Because what is striking me as just mind boggling for me who works on the 17th, 18th century, 19th century, is that we would know, right? We would have all of these things. But it's fascinating that it took a CT scan to definitely say that this person. I mean, I'm sure there was theories, I'm sure that people thought, but then there was also theories that he survived. And so the fact that something so seismic can happen, but that the documentation doesn't always draw it together in a really conclusive way that is satisfying for a modern consumption, audience driven thing where we like beginning, middle and end, that presents possibilities. Yes, but of course, frustrations. But then, you know, it's why we hear so many times in the media about different discoveries linked to ancient Egypt. Because there's still so much unknown, that there's still so much one can find. It's very rare that you're like, well, we found something brand new about the Civil War. No, because they were writing it down at the time. We know exactly what you know. I'm Talking about the 17th century Civil War in England. So what we know is that there was a conspiracy and we're gonna get to the document that tellsand you've already hinted at it, that tells us about that conspiracy. We weren't for a long time sure that there was even a murder.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, you would just think he died a natural death and the next king came along if you hadn't had the document.

[Anthony Delaney]

So let's talk about that document then because that's going to be quite a. It sounds like a very exciting document if you are an Egyptologist or any kind of historian.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes,

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[Anthony Delaney]

It's not a court proceeding per se.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

No.

[Anthony Delaney]

But tell us what it does show about this particular event.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So it, it lists the people involved in the conspiracy. So you have the royal wife T. You have these high court. Not high court court officials who are of high status. You have the butlers, this whole band of butlers involved. But then, and this is the really creepy bit about it that I love, they are punished. These people are punished, of course. So, so killing a king is dreadful, of course. And the king's son, because, let's remember, Ramesses IV is the son, the biological son of Ramesses iii. So someone's killed your dad.

[Anthony Delaney]

You might want to look into that.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, you're not happy with the people and you are now the pharaoh. So you're going to do something terrible to them. So some people decorously are allowed to take their own lives. The, the chief culprits. It's not made absolutely clear what happens to them. Something terrible. But then there is a lower rung of kind of accomplices that have their. And this was not uncommon, I think, for fairly serious crimes. They were sentenced, sentenced to having their nose and ears cut off. So not only is that not great for your health, but it's also a visible marker of you have done something really bad.

[Anthony Delaney]

But they were left alive.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

But they were left alive. So you're then literally marked for life as having done something really terrible. So that's bad. But then the really creepy detail is in the document that lists the people. It talks about people, and sometimes it deprives them of their names, which is really, really a kind of kick in the culprit when they're down and in some cases, the names have been changed. So there was a guy whose name meant re, the sun God. Sun God Ra, or Ra loves him. His name was changed to Ra, hates him. It's not the kind of name someone would ever have. And it's just I find that just really quite chilling, your whole identity, not just your body, because you wouldn't be allowed to be buried conventionally, but your name. And essentially part of your soul is damned because you've done such a terrible thing, you can't be allowed to exist. And an intriguing part of all this, you might wonder what happened to Pen to werret this.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, a potential other thero.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So again, pinch of salt here, because it's difficult to say for sure because of the process of mummification changing the body so much. But we have Ramses III's body, and we have, in the same cache of royal bodies found at the end of the 19th century, an unidentified man wrapped in a ritually unclean goatskin.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Ooh.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Who it seems genetically is related to Ramses iii. So he's been given a burial, but not given a burial, not a proper

[Anthony Delaney]

burial, not done the whole ritual.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

And again, there's this really creepy sense of, okay, we're going to do something with him you would expect for really, you know, capital crimes. And we have other evidence for this. Not only are you executed in a terrible way, for example, by being put on a spike and allowed to just die, your body is burned. So the whole concept of cremation is total anathema in ancient Egyptian. You need your body to become a sarkh, a divine ancestor being. So if you're burned, that's terrible. But in a way, there's this sense of humiliation that this man, if indeed it is pentaware, is wrapped in this way. He doesn't seem to have been treated in the way you might expect a prince of the blood should be treated. So that's kind of creepy. Another. Another weird, maybe not so weird, but fitting echo of this story is that when the body of Ramses III was found and was unwrapped, let's be clear, these people are being unwrapped. The bandages are being taken off them by inquisitive people. In the 19th century, when Ramses III is exposed, a writer in the 1920s, someone I'm quite interested in, a South African painter called Winifred Brunton, is making sketches and watercolor portraits of the people while they were alive. So she's making the mummified dead set for their portrait. She's imagining what they must have looked like when they were alive, which is a very subjective business. And they all look quite chocolate boxy. So it's like Caucasian Europeans, AI of

[Anthony Delaney]

its day, kind of AI reconstruction thing

[Dr. Campbell Price]

of its day, which is of great interest to me of late. But Winifred Brunton says in a very popular book, Kings and Queens of Ancient Egypt, she says there's a look of real rage and hate in this particular guy. Well, she did. They would have known about the harem conspiracy, so called at that time, but they didn't know about the body, the examination of the body. And so in her very popular book, she has her watercolor miniature painting reproduced. And then she has the pretty gruesome face of the mummified body. And there is good evidence, I've found, that suggests that the producers at Universal films in 1930, for the 1932 film, used that as the model of the Boris Karloff, the ultimate vengeful mummified body. And they used that as the model. And it's. So it's not just knowing that there is this mummified ancient Egyptian. It's because someone has said, God doesn't. What a look of vengeance and hate and disappointment. She says he looks. He's got a look of disappointment.

[Anthony Delaney]

Wow.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So that just gives me a bit of a shiver. And it clearly, in some ways helped make the image of that moving mummified body popular.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, well, I've got an image.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Ah, you've got an image. Would you like to see what that looks like?

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, okay. What am I looking at here now? Right, so is this. Right? Listeners at home, this is not a visual medium, so I should describe what I'm looking at and be less shocked. I have two images actually, as I scrolled down. One is of an image of a pharaoh. Yeah. I don't know if it's Ramesses. I'm presuming it's one of the Ramesses. Whether it's three or four, I don't know. Looks quite young. So I'm imagining maybe four. He's wrong, he's wrong.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

He's difficult to see.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

We don't age in anyone, but okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. She is a feral.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, so we've got that. And seems to be holding a receptacle and looking directly at it. Is it on fire? Is there smoke coming out of it? I'm aware that the last time we spoke about a receptacle, there was a heart in it. So I'm just bearing that in mind. So that's the top image and Then we have this, what would be stereotypically referred to as a mummified body who has been unwrapped.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes, partly.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, partly. Oh, yes, I see the hands and. Yeah, okay, the face is. Is this who you're talking about? This kind of vengeful, disappointed looking face? Right, so this we think, is the bottom. Images of Ramses iii, we think. Who's. Do we know the top? Is it also Ramses iii?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yes. Okay, so this is image and reality in a way. So that's what the Egyptians wanted you to see on the top, that painting, and that is actually the body. How do we know it's Ramesses iii? Well, he had been reburied, his tomb had been robbed a couple of centuries, well, maybe less than a couple of centuries after his death. And he was moved and was put in a kind of shoddy secondary use of a coffin. Originally, his coffin must have been probably gilded wood or solid gold. And on the outside of that, that secondhand coffin is a text that says, this is the body of Ramses iii. Ah, that'll do us that pretty reliable historical document. But as you said, he's not entirely unwrapped. So you see, his hands are kind of padded, like he's wearing gloves or mittens. And there is a. There's a shroud or a kind of scarf around his neck. And that was used in the Boris Karloff 1932 mummy film. Okay, but it really is. Yeah. Not a pleasant image.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no, it's not. But you know what is striking me even beyond that? And again, it relates to unpleasantness in many ways. I'm looking at the contrast of, as you said, what they wanted us to know and what we have. And, you know, often I'll decry the Victorians quite lightheartedly on this podcast, but sometimes it's warranted because actually what we end. It's so tricky, isn't it? Because here we are. If that was on display somewhere, I would probably go and see it out of curiosity. I certainly would have had. In the 19th century. There's no point in trying to layer over modern sensibility with that. In the 19th century, we would have all been there because this is what we would have been curious about. But it does. We still try to honor the wishes of the dead, don't we? And we still try to uphold some of that respect and give them what they wished for. And really, it just strikes me that they have. And we have, I suppose, robbed that from these particular individuals. And I know there is an awful lot of conversation around the display of bodies and remains from ancient Egypt. But that's a very striking example right there where it's. I don't know, I suppose in one sense there's two lessons from it. Right. On one side you're going, at the end of the day, these people are people in terms of how we relate to them and, you know, ashes to ashes and all that kind of thing. And then on the flip side, it's. But it's not how they were viewed in their own day and it's not how they saw themselves, it's not how the people around them saw them. And we've literally unraveled that dignity, that secrecy. Yeah.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

They were afforded, was meant to be afforded them. Absolutely tricky, isn't it? You're right, and I think that's a point worth making. You know, it's like a. How. Say it. Like a kid at a birthday. Like you give them something wrapped up and you've got to unwrap it because there's something inside I want to see. So you can actually see Ramesses III's body in Cairo in the National Museum of Egyptian Civilization in a very quiet gallery. You can't take your phone out, you're not really meant to speak, so it's a certain ambience, but you can see it as it is, as he is in that photo. But equally, you know, the whole process of trying the assailants and these conspirators was to try and punish them for doing something bad to him and for, you know, compromising his dignity and killing him. So the idea seems fairly clear in Pharaonic texts and imagery that the. The body of the deceased, the sach, is meant to be radiant and bound and gold covered mask and not exposed in that way. So it's difficult to get round that at that period, the mummified dead were meant to be put in a coffin and buried underground and not disturbed, for want of a better term. So by ancient Egyptian belief, the king, or whoever is deceased, lives through the other image. So it's nice to juxtapose them because he's got his name there, he's shown as ageless. It's not that he's young or old, he's just ageless. He's God and that's how he was believed to exist. But also we have this extraordinary case, in this case in particular, where you have the historical legacy, this uncanny survival of the body and then the historical document that describes the people who bumped him off. So it kind of triangulates to making a really intriguing Story, which I think is more intriguing than Ramses ii, because you get something of the kind of motivations of the people.

[Anthony Delaney]

Something is. You talked about the desecration of his body in his own time through murder, which I think is actually really useful for us to think with, which led me to think about. I'm always fascinated by this idea in more early modern and modern times about a disbelief when there is just this widespread thing of going, this is what people believed in. Be that witchcraft. Be that. You know. Again, I'm talking about the 17th century. Say, I know your answer is going to be, we don't know, and that there is no evidence. But I'm just. I'm just curious as to the idea of disbelief in these societies. There's. There's nothing, is there? There's nothing to point us towards people going, oh my God, look, they're doing. They're doing the socking again.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Well, well, do you know there are some sources that talk about. That have a skeptical tone to them. So you do get texts that say, well, Lemon Carpi, dm, live for the moment, because no one's coming back from there. The beyond. So there is a certain note of, yeah, gosh, all of this. It always reminds me of the Terry Pratchett book pyramids, where it's all of this investment in the afterlife of the king. Pyramids of dead kings which might drain the economy. And who knows, maybe part of the reason Ramesses III presided over a kind of weakened state was because so much wealth went into the Valley of the Kings. You know, there could be a corollary there. There could be a connection. So I think there was skepticism, but you cannot imagine, of course, there wasn't modern scientific knowledge where people would say, aha, you're just talking rubbish. I know the truth. There must have been. Yeah. Some healthy social skepticism that might have put.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Or.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, dissent.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, social dissent. You know, I'm not going along with this, but I'm also not unsettling the whole societal balance that has been created at the same time. It's.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah. I mean, witness the straight. Because would you strike against a living God if you really believed he was a living God?

[Anthony Delaney]

See, this is. Yeah, this is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Livy Dunn]

What.

[Anthony Delaney]

What. What is the. We're told they believe that in real terms, but what does their belief. What. What do the real terms of that belief mean? Yes, how does that manifest itself? Like? I mean, you know, there's been a lot of talk recently in. In the media about the divine right of kings, which doesn't exist in, in England, although people still think that it does to a great extent. But that, that's. That the king rules now, or even if he does rule technically, but even in the time periods, even the 17th century, let's say there are people who are just like, what are you talking about? It's just a man on a chair, like, you know, but, but, but this is far more of a, of a modern or just pre modern mindset that we're coming into here. We can't compare those two things. I'm just, but I'm just always, you know, again, if you talk about Salem and this, this belief system that people are caught again, 17th century. I know, and apologies for drawing these comparisons. But there was always people, despite the big swell of belief in Bush, going, what are you doing? And it's just, I'm fascinated by that because I think those voices, they'll always really be, they're often missing from the record, even in the 17th century or 18th century. But I just think they would be such an interesting counter to some of the things that we take as absolute.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah. And I think it is very important to nuance these big monumental beliefs, especially with Egypt just on the trained down. Anthony. I was reading a book by the great Egyptian author, Nobel laureate Nagib Mahfouz. It's called Adrift in the Nile. And there's a line in it. He says it doesn't surprise him that ancient Egyptians believed the king was a God, but it seems far fetched that the king himself would believe he was a God.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Sure.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

So there is a healthy skepticism, I know, amongst my current Egyptian friends about big concepts. So you've got to allow people in the past the same leeway or the freedom to be a little bit outside the standard strictures of that.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's variation somewhere.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, there is variation. And I wonder with the death of Ramesses iii, whether, I don't know, because it seems like there were attempts made through magic. And if you didn't get a successful outcome, whatever side of the debate you were on, you might wonder, am I doing something wrong? Are the gods genuinely protecting him and keeping him alive? Or once you'd bumped him off, he can't be that defined because I've just killed him.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And it is that thing as well, going, we're gonna have to finish this episode at some point, Campbell. But there is that idea of going, okay, step one, appeal to the gods because he is one. And then step two, I'll just do it myself.

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Yeah, there must have been that.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's an interesting climb down. Almost ready to go there. Okay, listen, one question which is off topic entirely. Let' leave plural Ramesses to himself. If there was. I love these hypotheticals. I don't know why I'm asking it, but I'm just genuinely curious if there was an artifact or a document or something that you understand and that your colleagues understand to be missing or destroyed or gone, that you were like, if we just had that one thing, that one piece of material culture, that one document, whatever it might be, that could fill in a gap in the archive that you just cannot get to grips with, what would you want to bring back?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

That's a tough, tough, tough question. I mean, related to. I won't say. Something about everyday life and the life of the common man. Right. Cause that's. We need more information on that. But equally, there are so many intriguing characters. You would love the same level of detail as that conspiracy Papyrus 4. I don't know what happened to Hatshepsut, for example, my favorite pharaoh, or, I don't know, like other people that lived at what seems to be a historical critical moment. Maybe it wasn't historically critical, but the discovery of those papyri, albeit chopped into pieces, shows that there are documents. There is essentially the diary of a pyramid builder known. So these things are out there, whether they await discovery under the sand or they're in museums and just haven't been identified. That's the thing that intrigues. Intrigues me most. I think that's still possible. But something that was of comparable intriguing detail to your Ramesses III papyrus.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. I'd just be on the hunt, I think, if I was an Egyptologist. I was like, I can't rest. I'm gonna have to find some of these things. Look, I'm gonna stop holding you ransom to my random foibles of information. Thank you so much for taking. Taking us through that. It's just. It is really thrilling to find something that almost step by step, as much as you can in ancient, takes you through. And this is why historians love primary source material, because it takes you back in time like that. If you are sitting in front of that document, which I never have, of course, but like, for the people who have. That's going to transport you, that's time travel, as close as we can get. It just really brings these things. It makes us feel something about these things. And I think that's what really appeals to people about history. Right, I'm going to stop rabbiting on. Thank you so much for listening to us. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I think there was so many fascinating and intriguing questions and thoughts that have come from that. If you have any other ideas for episodes that relate to ancient Egypt or in fact, anything else you can let us know on after darkhistoryhit.com that's after [e-mail] you can find me at Anthony Delaneyhistory on Instagram Campbell where can they find you?

[Dr. Campbell Price]

Gyptmcr there you go.

[Anthony Delaney]

Find us both. Follow us along and you'll get more lovely history pieces there from either the 17th century for me at the moment or Campbell Just Veronic Egypt and until next time. As ever, happy listening.

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[Dr. Campbell Price]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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