Sweating Sickness: Deadly Tudor Plague

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal Episode Summary: "Sweating Sickness: Deadly Tudor Plague" Release Date: February 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal, hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling delve into the enigmatic and deadly Sweating Sickness that plagued Tudor England. They explore its mysterious origins, devastating impact on society, and the role it played within the royal court, particularly affecting figures like Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. The discussion is enriched with historical anecdotes, medical theories, and the cultural legacy of this elusive disease.

Historical Context

Maddy Pelling opens the discussion by highlighting the Sweating Sickness as a significant medical mystery from Tudor England. Unlike the more infamous Black Death, the Sweating Sickness did not leave a clear mark on history, making it a subject of fascination and speculation.

Anthony Delaney provides the historical backdrop, noting that the Sweating Sickness first appeared in England in 1485, coinciding with Henry VII’s reign, and the last recorded outbreak occurred in 1551 during Edward VI’s rule. He emphasizes that this disease was predominantly English, with minimal records outside England, such as in the north of France.

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Symptoms and Severity

The hosts describe the rapid and severe symptoms of the Sweating Sickness, which distinguished it from other plagues of the time.

• Sudden Onset: Unlike the gradual progression of illnesses like the common cold, the Sweating Sickness struck without warning.

• Intense Symptoms: Victims experienced severe chills, high fever, and profuse sweating. The sweat was often malodorous, leading contemporaries to associate the disease with bad smells—a common misconception of disease transmission at the time.

• Rapid Decline: As Anthony Delaney explains, the disease could kill within hours, encapsulated by the saying, "You could be merry at dinner and dead by supper" (14:07). However, those who survived the initial 24 hours had a higher chance of recovery.

• Physical Manifestations: Victims would appear drenched, struggling to maintain composure, leading to panic and public displays of distress.

Notable Quote:

Maddy Pelling (14:50): "It's really frightening to have such a devastating effect that can wipe someone out of society in seconds."

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Spread and Public Health Concerns

Anthony Delaney discusses the factors contributing to the spread of the Sweating Sickness:

• Urbanization: London’s population tripled in the 16th century, from 50,000 to nearly 150,000, leading to crowded living conditions that facilitated disease transmission.

• Increased Travel: More frequent and extensive travel, both within England and across Europe, allowed the disease to spread more efficiently.

• Transmission Theories: While the exact mode of transmission remains unknown, theories suggest it was spread through human contact in crowded areas. Modern medical experts speculate it could have been a type of hantavirus linked to rodent populations.

Maddy Pelling adds that contemporary beliefs held that diseases were spread through contaminated air and smells, thus heightening fear and misunderstanding about the disease’s transmission.

Notable Quote:

Anthony Delaney (16:38): "We think it was likely transmitted through human contact. It was more prevalent in crowded cities, so a matter of deduction there."

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Impact on the Tudor Court

The Sweating Sickness had a profound effect on the Tudor court, influencing political dynamics and personal relationships.

• Henry VIII’s Response: Anthony Delaney portrays Henry VIII as a hypochondriac deeply concerned about falling ill. He implemented quarantine and isolation measures within the court, retreating to remote hunting lodges to protect himself from the disease.

• Anne Boleyn’s Illness: Anne Boleyn contracted the Sweating Sickness in 1528 after a maid from her chamber fell ill. Despite the panic and fear, Anne quickly recovered, which some historians suggest may have strengthened Henry's desire for her, viewing her resilience as a sign of strength.

• Death of Court Figures: The disease did not spare anyone at court, leading to the deaths of significant figures like Thomas Cromwell’s wife and daughters, as depicted in Hilary Mantel’s Wolf Hall. This had lasting implications on political alliances and the succession of power.

Notable Quote:

Eustace Chapuis (Reference at 31:16): "The illness is so contagious and deadly that it spares no one. In some houses, it has killed all the inhabitants, leaving them desolate."

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Treatment and Responses

During the Tudor period, medical understanding was limited, and treatments were largely ineffective or even counterproductive.

• Encouraging Sweating: Physicians believed that inducing sweat would purge the body of humors, hence treatments focused on making patients sweat more.

• Sealing Patients: To prevent further spread, patients were sometimes sewn into bed sheets, restricting their movement and forcing them to sweat excessively.

• Prayers and Spiritual Remedies: King Edward VI responded to the Sweating Sickness with prayer, believing it was a manifestation of God’s wrath. A surviving prayer from this period beseeches divine intervention to end the pestilence.

Notable Quote:

Anthony Delaney (23:57): "They always said that, didn't they? Like, sweat it out, get it out, get it out."

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The Sweating Sickness Legacy

The Sweating Sickness left an indelible mark on Tudor England, influencing both cultural perceptions and historical narratives.

• Cultural Representation: The disease is prominently featured in Hilary Mantel’s Wolf Hall, which has solidified its place in popular culture as an iconic Tudor mystery.

• Medical Mystique: The uncertainty surrounding the cause and transmission of the Sweating Sickness has fueled medical theories and conspiracy speculations, including possibilities like mutation into influenza or persistence in modern-day viruses.

• Human Connection: The discussion emphasizes the shared vulnerability of humans across time, highlighting how diseases like the Sweating Sickness can collapse the distance between past and present, reminding us of our ongoing susceptibility to pandemics.

Notable Quote:

Maddy Pelling (42:10): "We're part of an ongoing human existence, this experiment on this rock floating through Earth, and we're all susceptible to these things."

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Conclusion

Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling conclude the episode by reflecting on the enigmatic legacy of the Sweating Sickness. They underscore how this Tudor mystery continues to captivate historians and enthusiasts alike, serving as a testament to the ever-present interplay between disease, society, and power.

Notable Quote:

Maddy Pelling (44:34): "A Tudor medical mystery history."

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Key Takeaways

• The Sweating Sickness was a highly contagious and rapidly fatal disease that struck Tudor England between 1485 and 1551.

• It primarily affected the middle to upper classes, including prominent figures at the royal court, amplifying its recorded impact and legacy.

• Symptoms included sudden onset, severe sweating, chills, and a high mortality rate within hours of infection.

• Public health responses were primitive, relying on methods like induced sweating and enforced quarantine without understanding the true nature of the disease.

• The legacy of the Sweating Sickness persists in historical narratives and cultural representations, symbolizing the mysterious and often devastating impact of pandemics on society and power structures.

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For those intrigued by the intertwining of history, mystery, and the supernatural, this episode offers a compelling exploration of the Sweating Sickness and its profound effects on Tudor England.

Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling. And if you would like After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal ad free and get early access.

[Maddy Pelling]

Sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every week.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

[Unknown]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Anthony Delaney]

The Friary Stirs before sunrise, the usual toll of the bell calling the brothers to prayer. Brother Matthew wakes with a start. His chest is tight, his breathing labored. A faint chill ripples through him, though the summer air is yet warm. He wipes his brow and rises diligently to prepare for matins. By the time he reaches the chapel, though, a dull ache has infiltrated his limbs. He falters during the liturgy, clutching at the wooden pew for support, then steadies himself once more. Come mid morning, after a short rest, Brother Matthew returns to his duties. Though his pace is slow, his Movements are heavy. Sweat pours from his body now, soaking his habit. His stomach churns unpredictably and his hands tremble as he fumbles with the tools of his work in the herb garden. He can no longer ignore the foreboding sense that something is not as it ought to be. By midday, Brother Matthew can no longer stand. He collapses onto a bench in the cloister, his face pale and glistening, his pulse racing beneath Clammy's skin. Other brothers approach cautiously, but their concern is laced with fear. They whisper amongst themselves, reluctant to draw too near. Meanwhile, Matthew's breathing becomes shallow, rasping as the fever overtakes him. Eventually carried to the infirmary, however reluctantly, Matthew's condition deteriorates rapidly. His body convulses with violent chills, followed by waves of heat so intense that his skin seems to burn beneath his drenched robes. His head throbs, his vision blurs, and he is too weak to drink the herbal infusions offered to him. He lies motionless on a straw mattress, staring blankly at a vaulted ceiling as the hours slip away. As the sun sets, the friary grows still. Brother Matthew's final breaths scratch at the walls in the dimly lit infirmary. His face is ashen, his features hollow. His heart, strained by the relentless fever, finally falters. By compline, he is gone. The brothers prepare to bury him swiftly, knowing that death now walks among them.

[Maddy Pelling]

Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I'm Anthony.

[Maddy Pelling]

And I do not feel well after listening to that. We are in the studio saying that.

[Anthony Delaney]

You didn't feel well. It is warm.

[Maddy Pelling]

It is warm in here. I am feeling a little bit overheated.

[Anthony Delaney]

A little bit sweaty and feeling a little bit sweaty.

[Maddy Pelling]

Hideous. This is the Tudor malady, the sweating sickness. I am fascinated by this history because it's a mystery, right? It's a medical mystery. History.

[Anthony Delaney]

Medical mystery. History.

[Maddy Pelling]

You're welcome. We don't know what it was. We don't really know where it came from and we don't know where it went.

[Anthony Delaney]

And that's the end of this episode. Why bother going any further?

[Maddy Pelling]

To date, we have done quite a lot of plague related sickness episodes. We've done the Black Death with Hannah Carr. Amazing. Eam Plague village.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yep.

[Maddy Pelling]

What was the other one we did? Typhoid Mary. Of course.

[Anthony Delaney]

Of course. Yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's your episode.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Yes. I invented Typhoid Mary.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes. You created her. Let's head into the 16th century, though, because this time we are in Tudor England. Give me some context.

[Anthony Delaney]

The main Tudor himself. Well, no main Tudor is Elizabeth, I guess. But the second main Tudor himself, Henry VIII, is on the throne between 1509-1547.

[Maddy Pelling]

I would say arguably the main Tudor.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you think she's the.

[Maddy Pelling]

I would say she's the main Elizabethan, if anything.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you not think she's the main Tudor?

[Maddy Pelling]

I would say Henry's the major. Write in with your opinion.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know why you're saying that. I do know why you're saying that. And that was my instinct to say that. But then I was like, no, Elizabeth is the major.

[Maddy Pelling]

People are gonna have strong feelings on this.

[Anthony Delaney]

I gotta quit it. They are.

[Maddy Pelling]

I would say Elizabeth is an Elizabethan.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. But like, she's a Tudor Elizabethan.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, I would always rather hear about her than Henry. But I'm gonna say people. People are gonna say Henry VIII is the main Tudor.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm gonna come out on Team Elizabeth for that one. Anyway, we digress. This doesn't really concern her that much because by the time she comes to the throne, it's gone. So this is a very, like.

[Maddy Pelling]

Stop going on about Elizabeth. I, you know, we're gonna meet her.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm gonna marry her. That would have been nice if I married Elizabeth. I Would it. No. This is weird now. I don't know what I'm talking about. She's dead. Henry VIII is on the throne from 1509 to 1547. Yes. And by 1551 is the last definite recorded incident of the sweating sickness. So it really is like.

[Maddy Pelling]

It really is.

[Anthony Delaney]

And the first that we think, it's hard to say, but the first recorded incident of this is 1485, which is when Henry Tudor, Henry VII comes to the throne. So it's the father and son. That's. It doesn't really. It goes into this, Edward VI's reign as well, but it doesn't go too much further.

[Maddy Pelling]

So Elizabeth first is entirely irrelevant to this convers. Wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

Apart from the fact that she's the venture.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wow. Indeed. Okay. Okay, so just give me a sense of what's happening in England and across Europe in this moment. Because there's a lot of changing politics and there've been a lot of health crises up to this point. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. So in England, we have. Obviously we've had in the 30s, 1530s, the dissolution of the monasteries. That's obviously bringing a lot of religious turmoil in Europe. Charles V is the prominent force in Europe and somebody that Henry kind of reluctantly has to look up to. Like, he's so more powerful than Henry is, realistically. But yes, the health Crises that are making their way across Europe at this time. We've spoken about them in the introduction. So we have the Black Death, bubonic plague. We have syphilis appearing for the first time towards the end of the 15th century.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's fascinating.

[Anthony Delaney]

So we have all of this and they think there's a connection between travel, between the new world, when that appears. So these are, you know, there are life threatening diseases making themselves very much.

[Maddy Pelling]

Known and not just threatening in terms of individual lives. Right. But whole society. Yes. As we see with the Black death in the 14th century, these diseases are feared.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now this is one of the weird things about sweating sickness. It doesn't have that kind of an impact now. It still kills people, but the scale is just not the same at all. And this is what adds to the kind of mystique. And we'll get into all of this, but do bear in mind as well that in the context of England, the population in London, where a lot of what we'll be talking about today takes place, is that it's tripled in the course of 100 years, essentially during the 16th century. So we go from about 50,000 at the start of the 16th century to almost 150 at the end. He is, he can sometimes do them. And the other thing to bear in mind is increased travel. Now, not that travel was not happening in the Middle Ages, it was, but it's increasing now. So the disease is spreading in different ways.

[Maddy Pelling]

Tell me this.

[Anthony Delaney]

I will.

[Maddy Pelling]

Is there a sense that the conditions in the city that's becoming increasingly crowded and full of people who are coming in from different places and passing through different places and bringing things, diseases with them potentially. Is there a sense that this is becoming medically dangerous? Is there a health, a public health concern or is that not part of the discourse?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, there is a public health concern, but I, I'm not sure that it would be wholly accurate to say that it is unique to this moment in time. In that I'm not sure they're thinking to themselves, we are being inundated with.

[Maddy Pelling]

This is a dangerous moment. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Like for instance, with us, we can kind of identify with that. When we had Covid, we're like, this is a dangerous moment. I don't think they were thinking that in terms of the sweating sickness. That's not to say they didn't fear it because they really did.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. I will say though, Erasmus writes in this century about the unsanitary conditions and I don't know if he's necessarily writing about these in terms of being worried about health or just noting how disgusting.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, it is health.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, the situations are. But, you know, he talks about the flaws of people's homes being covered in spittle, vomit, urine. And I have in brackets here both men and dogs, women and cats. Not sexually. No.

[Anthony Delaney]

You'd never see a woman spitting or.

[Maddy Pelling]

Your dating on the floor beer dregs of beer and cast off bits of fish. That is what I like to do with fish. I eat in my house.

[Anthony Delaney]

You see, I'm gonna caveat that a little bit. And obviously that is what Erasmus says. And he was there, I was not. But there is also. Don't underestimate a little bit of house pride. It's not like the Tudors or Tudor people were living in absolute squal.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, they're not the cliche, the medieval quote unquote, dark ages cliche that we think.

[Anthony Delaney]

What? Yes, obviously we are living in very different times and disease is more easily transmitted in the situation, in the conditions that they're living in. But let's talk about specifically the sweating sickness now.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, go on. What is it?

[Anthony Delaney]

I can't tell you. And if that's what you've come here to find out, you'll never really know.

[Maddy Pelling]

I thought you were a doctor.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God, my nephew's gonna be like, see, told you you weren't a real doctor. Finally he's proven right. So it was known as the sweating sickness. It was also known as the stoop gallant and the new acquaintance.

[Maddy Pelling]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'll tell you in a second.

[Maddy Pelling]

Amazing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Stoop knave, and know thy master. Now. The reason being, and we'll get into why in a minute, is it often affected people in the middle to upper classes. Oh, so stoop knave is basically going, you're just as good as anybody else now. Or know thy master, I. E. God is the only person that.

[Maddy Pelling]

So you're being humbled by the symptoms.

[Anthony Delaney]

We do have a theory as to why that might be, and we'll come to that in just a minute. But we have an account from the first outbreak in 1485 from somebody, a French doctor, Thomas Le Forestier, who witnessed what he was seeing in London at the outbreak of this illness. And this is what he wrote. He says a new kind of sickness came through the whole region, which was so sore, so painful and sharp, that the like was never heard of to any man's remembrance before that time.

[Maddy Pelling]

Now, and these are people who've lived through the blood death.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. Ye. I would actually go as far as to say that's Listen, this was not good.

[Maddy Pelling]

Hyperbole.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And we'll see how bad this was. But I would say I would prefer to get the sweating sickness over the Black Death any day.

[Maddy Pelling]

The people. Okay, okay, so what specifically are the symptoms then?

[Anthony Delaney]

So sudden onset, as in like you're fine and then you're not fine very quickly. Right. So you don't have two days where you're like, oh, I've got a few aches and pains. You know when you get a cold and you're like, why is my back.

[Maddy Pelling]

So you're like, I can feel a cold coming.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's that time of year, isn't it? Everyone's always like, oh, I can feel a cold. Cold. I can feel it coming on. But no, but none of that.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're not. Bam. Oh my God. I'm really not well. Very suddenly. Severe chills, fever and sweating. But the sweating is, in the parlance of the day, malodorous. So it's bad smelling sweat and like, not that you've been in for days.

[Maddy Pelling]

We know in this period as well that people often believe that sickness is carried by smell. Right. And by contaminated air. So this must have been a real cause for concern if people start to smell like they're sick. Yeah, that not good.

[Anthony Delaney]

And this smell and the kind of, the look of dampness now, this is. You would look wet. This wasn't just a, oh, I've got a little uncomfortable under my arms. No, you would look like you're, you're, you're drenched. And the way they often said it is in quick cases, you would be dead before your clothes dried. So before your clothes could dry out from your own sickness, from sudden onset to your clothes having dried, you would be probably dead if you were going to die.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, that's, that's horrendous. That's really frightening.

[Anthony Delaney]

And another common adage about it was you could be merry at dinner and dead by supper. Dinner happening more towards the middle of the day than nowadays. And we have it at night.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's day drinking, isn't it?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. So like, but this is how quick this was. But, but, but there is hope. If you survived the first 24 hours, it was far more likely you were going to.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, so this doesn't necessarily kill you.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no, no, no. So you can get this and survive.

[Maddy Pelling]

So you can be dead in a day, Half a day. And also, can I just say, I think it's really interesting how the Tudor day is measured there in terms of meals and that the Sweating sickness is interrupting the routines, the patterns of ordinary life and having that effect, that devastating effect of killing someone within that short timeframe that's so organized and understood, and everyone has a place to go to and a role to fulfill in this society. And you can be wiped out of it in a second.

[Anthony Delaney]

And you're gonna miss your place to.

[Maddy Pelling]

Be unless you have it for more than hours. And then you might survive.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're far more like, no, but quite likely after 24 hours to survive. So, yeah, if you get through the night, say, or whatever it is, then things might look a little bit better for you. But. But one of my favorite symptoms is. And this is before the chill comes, right, apparently you get a terrible sense of impending doom. That's what they're. That's what the contemporary accounts say.

[Maddy Pelling]

Getting anxiety just hearing you say this impending doom.

[Anthony Delaney]

I think I have that all the time. There was a guy writing at the time called John Harding, right. And he wrote that. There was, again, a little bit of exaggeration here, but it means it happened somewhere. Cliches exist for a reason. But people got so hot and were so sweaty that they take off all the bed clothes, take off their actual clothes. And because we're kind of in a sense of delirium here and just go running through the streets in order to try and rid themselves of this, you know.

[Maddy Pelling]

And again, you've got that transgressing. I mean, it sounds kind of funny as a scene, but you've got that transgressing of boundaries and behaviors. And, you know, you're leaving your domestic space and you have no clothes on, and there's. It's, you know, sort of visible impropriety and panic. It must have spread panic. You know, all these people running around naked, sweating, and then they're dead the next second.

[Anthony Delaney]

And it's interesting because you have all of these acute symptoms, right, and they're coming together to form this awful illness. But we think now, although we cannot be sure because obviously there's no case studies to be able to test, but we think the most likely cause of death was dehydration. So actually, it is something that could have been dealt with had they known exactly how they were dying.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, it makes sense.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's only a theory, though. But yes.

[Maddy Pelling]

So we don't know where this has come from. Do we know how it spreads at least? Is this seemingly random? Do people work out what's going on?

[Anthony Delaney]

We don't really know, but there are theories, and we love a medical theory here. A lot of historians Are like, no, why would you guess about what things were happening in the past? I'm like, I want to know. Just guess away. You're fine, it's fine.

[Maddy Pelling]

We're not real medical doctors. Don't take our advice.

[Anthony Delaney]

As long as I'm entertained, who cares? We do think it was likely transmitted through human contact. It was more prevalent in crowded cities. So it's a matter of deduction there. It makes sense. If it's happening more in cities, in crowded areas, then that would make sense that some kind of contact is. Is most likely modern. People who've looked at this with medical backgrounds have said it's some kind of a hantavirus and that would link it to rodent population. So we're talking about rats, potentially.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. Initially, we know they helped to spread the plague.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. So it's just maybe some other form of a hantavirus, to be fair to the rats.

[Maddy Pelling]

The fleas. Before anyone rides in. It's the fleas. Is that. I know it's the fleas. So is this just one big pandemic that happens? Does it come in periods?

[Anthony Delaney]

Does this come and go or it comes and goes? As I said, the start is very Tudor. So we have 1485 at the very beginning, 1508. So gives a bit of a breather. 1517, 1528. And then the last recorded incident of this specific sweating sickness is recorded in 1551. So it really is very contained, like relatively so.

[Maddy Pelling]

It is. But if you were born around 1500 and say you lived to the age of 50, you've seen a lot of that in your lifetime. If you survive it, like those are several waves coming and going.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Even though it would shape your life and your anxieties and your fears, I suppose. And that's on top of all the other diseases that you might catch and all the accidents you might have and. Oh, my God.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the fun. You might have very much localized to England, by the way.

[Maddy Pelling]

Ooh, interesting. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

It doesn't really venture outside England. And when it does, in the. In the few cases that it does, it's only within English populations in places like the north of France.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. So it's very English centric. Not that it's targeting English people, because diseases can't do that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wait a second.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's where we're seeing it occur. So it is.

[Maddy Pelling]

I can hear the Tudor conspiracy theories coming right now. I have here written the question, why was it feared? But I think it's quite self explanatory, really. I mean, this is seemingly random. It's coming and going in these waves with very little way to predict them. You can survive it or you can be dead in a few hours. And it seems to target people in the sort of middling to upper strata of society, which is unusual.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I think that's one of the reasons why it's feared, because we have more records of it being feared, because it was hitting that more literate part of society. So therefore they're writing about it.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's the historical record. I mean, is there something that people in those classes are doing that the lower classes are not, that is spreading it?

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, one of the main sites of infection were places like monasteries, those that still survived anywhere where the clergy were together. So men, and middle to upper class men were getting this disease at an unusual rate. So what are you looking at me like that? For those of you who can't see, Maddie just pulled down her glasses and looked at me. What do you mean? What have I. I feel like I've done something.

[Maddy Pelling]

No. Is this through some kind of sexual contact? Is that what's happening? Maybe. But then you'd see that throughout society, wouldn't you? I'm just thinking, you know, these.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's hilarious. Yeah. I mean, I see where your brain went. I don't think so.

[Maddy Pelling]

No, because that would happen across society. What is it about monasteries, then? They're administering medical help to people.

[Anthony Delaney]

Close living quarters.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, close living quarters, but so are people in a lot of.

[Anthony Delaney]

In Tudor townsuder households. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it's not a disparate population in London at this point. It is distinct from things like the bubonic plague because there is no visible, like, buboes or the lumps that you.

[Maddy Pelling]

Get in the groin.

[Anthony Delaney]

Because you remember, like, we always hear, like, oh, oh, there's a lump under the armpit.

[Maddy Pelling]

We know this is very serious. Have felt. If you'd felt that lump.

[Anthony Delaney]

It wasn't that with this. Although people were still really scared because of the speed with which people would deteriorate. And that in itself was much faster than the.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's genuinely really frightening. And the fact that we still don't know what it is. The mystery is really unsettling.

[Unknown]

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[Maddy Pelling]

Was there any treatment? Was there effective treatment? I imagine there was a range of proposed treatments in the Tudor period. But how do you actually combat this? Did anyone work it out?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, they didn't work. And if they did work it out, see, the thing is, they probably did work it out because it disappears, but they don't necessarily know what they did because they didn't know what they were treating necessarily. But the thought at the time was that you needed to encourage the sweating. Now, if you are linking the cause of death to dehydration, in hindsight that might feel. Not necessarily. But they always said that, didn't they? Like, sweat it out, get it out, get it out. The humors get.

[Maddy Pelling]

There's an imbalance in your body so you need to purge yourself. I mean, it kind of makes sense. You can see. Yes, that would obviously dehydrate people and make things a thousand times worse, but you can see why they would do that.

[Anthony Delaney]

Can you see why they might sew them into their bed sheets as a form of treatment? Because they did that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, because they kept running naked around.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, yeah, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

But yeah, just stop, Stop Granddad running down the street with no pants on.

[Anthony Delaney]

Because they were like, sweat, sweat this out. They were just like, keep them in, keep them warm, sew them into the bed sheets so they can't like free themselves from it. Keep them awake as much as you can within the 24 hour period. That was one of the things. So they knew that this 24 hour.

[Maddy Pelling]

Thing was exhausted, dehydrated. Brilliant. It's interesting about being sewn into the bed clothes. I imagine if you are suffering from a fever and a sweating sickness, would that not feel like you're being sort of stitched into a shroud?

[Anthony Delaney]

Can you imagine? I would hate that there would be a feeling covered by my blanket at night.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh really? Are you not worried that the monster under the bed will get them there?

[Anthony Delaney]

My dog sleep under the bed.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

So they're taking care of that.

[Maddy Pelling]

So yeah, they're dealing with that situation.

[Anthony Delaney]

They cannot be covered, have to be out. Do you wear socks in bed?

[Maddy Pelling]

God no. No, no, no, no, no, no. My dog lies on top of me.

[Anthony Delaney]

The dogs eventually make their way in. You've got big dogs as well.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. She thinks that she's married to my husband and she gets in between us and slowly uses her arms and legs to push me out of the bed.

[Anthony Delaney]

She doesn't have arms, she's a dog. The four legs then, whatever they are, the four legs.

[Maddy Pelling]

She does not think she's a dog. She thinks she's a human.

[Anthony Delaney]

She thinks she's a raven haired beauty that's married.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Speaking of raven haired beauties. Yes, Link.

[Maddy Pelling]

Amazing. How is this going? Oh, nice.

[Anthony Delaney]

Woo. She gets it. So Anne. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anne gets it now. Obviously she survives.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

I didn't actually know this until.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, that would change the course of English history. That is an amazing one.

[Anthony Delaney]

What if. Yeah, but no, she didn't.

[Maddy Pelling]

So when does she get it?

[Anthony Delaney]

She gets it in fifth. 1528. The summer of 1528. Because she is.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's like the third outbreak. Fourth outbreak at that point, I think.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, that's the fourth outbreak. So you've been listening. The thing to notice about this, right? The thing to remember about this is Anne gets it from a maid because it's going around court. So just as it goes around religious orders, court is living in quarters. And you know, it's spreading there. Henry VIII is actually a bit of a hypochondriac and I did not know this. And he goes, get me the flip out. I don't want to be anywhere near this.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, look, from his point of view, he is God's representative on the true. He's the King. He has a job to do. He has to rule all over England. He does not want to get this again.

[Anthony Delaney]

We know what this looks and feels like in our own time, but he implements or he oversees the implementation of quarantine isolation measures. Definitely across court. Yeah, yeah. And he takes himself out of it and he retreats to, like, remote hunting lodges. And so again, we know that they know it's something about living in close quarters, but they're not quite sure what it is.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, that's an incredible moment at court. Everyone's in quarantine, The King's gone off for a simple shooting party, you know, away to a lodge somewhere, that is.

[Anthony Delaney]

And he keeps moving, too. He won't just stay in one hunting lodge. He keeps moving around as if it.

[Maddy Pelling]

Might be follow him, chasing. Well, I mean, they don't know how it spreads, really.

[Anthony Delaney]

He wouldn't let his attendants come close to him to serve him. He would only have the small few that could. He conducted court business through messengers. So he'd be like, don't come near me, I'll get my message to you. And you'll just have to wait a day or whatever to get meter.

[Maddy Pelling]

Big gaps marked on the floor.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Two meter things.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

And it's not just. He wasn't just afraid of getting sweating sickness, he was just afraid of getting sick generally. And again, I think you're right. I think it's that, like, I can't die. I am the King.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's a really interesting mindset, isn't it? Because Henry VIII on the one hand, and I mean, he's sort of obsessed with bodily function, isn't he? He's obsessed with procreating and creating a male heir. And in that way, he's thinking in terms of longevity. He's thinking in terms of his survival and the survival of his house and his reign far beyond his own lifetime. But then he's also thinking, I could die tomorrow of the sweating sickness. Oh, my God, I could die at any second.

[Anthony Delaney]

Which he could.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Which he is as vulnerable as anyone else. And it must have been hard and sort of strange to exist as the ruling monarch at a time when you're thinking about that longevity and how it could can all Be snuffed out in an instant. It's a weird headspace to be in.

[Anthony Delaney]

And he doesn't have a son in 1528.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. So he's really panicking.

[Anthony Delaney]

So he has no legacy to leave at this particular moment in time. So, yeah, this isn't. But speaking of legacies. And his is so closely tied to Anne Boleyn, she. As I say, she contracts during this time after a lady in her chamber.

[Maddy Pelling]

Became ill. Are they romantically involved at this moment?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. They haven't done anything that's gonna formalize their union just yet, but they are back and forth. They are flirting, and they are. She has made an impact on him big time, but he leaves nonetheless. And she goes to Hever Castle. Now, she leaves to go to Hever before she's symptomatic, so. But she's caught it at court, so by the time she gets to Hever, she's sick.

[Maddy Pelling]

How annoyed would you be if you were one of the servants at Hever and it was like, oh, stay where you were. Oh, my God, she's sweating.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now, Henry may have abandoned her, but he did send his personal physician to her to. So, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Dr. Bennett, is that a romantic gesture after he's buggered off and left you? I don't.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's as romantic as Henry VIII gets, I think. I think that's kind of. But, like, boss bitch that she is, she recovers quickly. Like, she's like.

[Maddy Pelling]

I would expect nothing less from Anne. Yeah. She's like, absolutely. This ain't stopping me.

[Anthony Delaney]

And then this. You know, some historians have argued that this is really a critical moment in their relationship because this cements his desire for her when there was the potential of losing her. Okay, hold on. I have to. I have a wife.

[Maddy Pelling]

But I need to know, does she really have it? The sickness?

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God. You are in conspiracy theory land.

[Maddy Pelling]

She goes away from court, and she's like, oh, no, Henry, I'm so ill. You might lose me. Send you a doctor. Is it warm in here? I feel a bit sweaty. I'm not saying she lied. I'm just saying.

[Anthony Delaney]

And she recovers. She recovers suspiciously swiftly as well. Oh, good for her if she faked it. But. But I don't know. I wasn't there.

[Maddy Pelling]

We weren't there. And did you do it? Okay, so we'll take her at a word. So she recovers sickness, which absolutely lied about. Carry on.

[Anthony Delaney]

But there is panic at court. Not just because Ann Boleyn. Because Anne Boleyn isn't Anne Boleyn. At this point, but, like, courtiers are catching it, basically. So this isn't good.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. And people are. Yeah, dying in the heart of power. And the king's gone again. He's absent. And people are dropping dead. People who are important in the realm.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And it's not good when the king absents himself, even if he's doing it for preservation.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, it doesn't look good, does it? It doesn't fill you with confidence.

[Anthony Delaney]

Exactly.

[Maddy Pelling]

You're gonna be okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Yeah. And we have a diplomat, Eustace Chapuis. And Eustace has described the. The kind of sense of dread that was going around court. He says the illness is so contagious and deadly that it spares no one. In some houses, it has killed all the inhabitants, leaving them desolate. So. And so now we see a bit of a mass, in the same way as people always replicate what the monarch's doing. Right. People now run from London as well, so they're like, let's get out. We'll go to our country estate.

[Maddy Pelling]

Even though at this point, of course, it's spread through that community.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Yeah. They probably have it already.

[Maddy Pelling]

Carriers, maybe. And haven't. We'll never know. Or will we?

[Anthony Delaney]

But anyone who remained at court kept those isolation rules that Henry had put in before he went.

[Maddy Pelling]

Now, tell me this.

[Anthony Delaney]

I will.

[Maddy Pelling]

When I think of the sweating sickness, I do automatically think of Hilary Mantel and Thomas Cromwell in Wolf hall, because his family is pretty much wiped out. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

His wife and his two daughters. And that's historically accurate, you know, And I think Mantel's description. You can go to page 103. I remember that off because I read it for the. No, I just went back to it for this particular thing, and I remember it was on page 103.

[Maddy Pelling]

All right.

[Anthony Delaney]

And that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Super fun.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's the description of how Elizabeth writes.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Elizabeth Weeks, his wife. How she dies is on 103. And it's. I think it's like, you know, as. As ever, Mantel has really done her research, and the way she describes the demise of Elizabeth Weeks is. Is incredible. But historically, yes, Elizabeth Weeks, his. His wife does die, and Grace and Anne, his daughter, succumb to the disease as well. It's really well depicted. Right. In the book. And then she uses it fictionally to inform her version of Cromwell's stoicism and his, you know, his reason for going forward because he gathers himself after this period of grief. Now, we don't have documentary evidence of that necessarily. Well, not to the extent that we know that it's covered in Wolf hall, but certainly Mantel uses that.

[Maddy Pelling]

And that's another interesting what if of history, if Thomas Cromwell had died in that moment, and of course he goes on to broker that relationship between Henry and Anne, amongst other things, and obviously eventually faces his own downfall. It's fascinating. It makes you think, I suppose, about the people who did die of this mysterious illness at court in particular and across society. But I'm thinking specifically about these big players at court and who was taken out of the running, which women were never going to be the next queen. You know, who may have caught Henry's eye otherwise.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Who may have, like usurped Anne Boleyn.

[Maddy Pelling]

Exactly. You know, which courtiers were plotting against who. And those plots, all those machinations just fell to the sidelines and were forgotten because their players died.

[Anthony Delaney]

You know, it's very easy to forget that until you said, oh, what if she had? Anne Boleyn had died? And it's like, oh, yeah, that would have changed everything.

[Maddy Pelling]

This will have changed everything. This sickness has transformed the trajectory of the country.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you want to hear a prayer that was made up to help stop the spread of this illness?

[Maddy Pelling]

Always.

[Anthony Delaney]

In the summer of 1551, the sweating sickness was spreading through England for the final time. And the 13 year old king Edward VI was deeply concerned. He was an ardent Protestant and saw in this the hand of God and wrote to his bishops in these we cannot but lament the people's wickedness through which the wrath of God hath been thus marvellously provoked. After one plague he hath sent another and another, increasing it so from one to one, till at length, seeing none other remedy, he hath thrown forth this most extreme plague of sudden death. Death, the only way to appease God, the only way to end this pestilential arms race between mankind's ability to err and the Creator's ability to make ever more deadly diseases was through prayer. He implored the bishops to have their people pray. Now, one of the prayers written in response to this young king's plea survives. It is a clammy and sticky thing in itself. It says the following. We beg in weakness, sweat and worry that Mary, the Blessed Mother, will hear us in our sad sweat. And the prayer goes on to plead to Christ, who, for the health of our souls on the Mount of Olives, bent your knees, sweating abundantly, grant that your sweet mother of intervention will deliver us from the great deadly perspiration. To find safety.

[Maddy Pelling]

They should put that on the side of deodorant bottles.

[Anthony Delaney]

That is a sweaty prayer, isn't it? God?

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[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so now we've got little King Edward Henry son.

[Anthony Delaney]

We fast forwarded a little bit here.

[Maddy Pelling]

Fast forwarded, yeah. This is the final wave of the.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sicknesses final outbreak.

[Maddy Pelling]

In 1551. This is the final one. Is there anything that marks this out as being different other than it is the final countdown?

[Anthony Delaney]

Not so much, no. There's nothing particularly unusual about this one. There's just no recorded cases beyond that. It's so random, isn't it really when you think about it? The ascendancy of Protestantism and the dissolution of the monasteries. Some people do say that the dissolution of the monasteries is now more advanced.

[Maddy Pelling]

Interesting.

[Anthony Delaney]

But that stops us that it's not.

[Maddy Pelling]

Spreading in those centres, that it's not spreading in. And it's interesting that here we've got, you know, a young Edward. He is relatively new to the throne. He's certainly young and like his father, he's being threatened by this. He might be wiped out. His corpse court might be wiped out. This is an illness that doesn't seem to discriminate between people. We know it's more prevalent in terms of certain centres.

[Anthony Delaney]

Probably based on record. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Based on, yes, the written record, but also in terms potentially of just the concentration of people in those spaces. Whether it's the royal court or the monastery or whatever it is. Is there a sense with this wave that it is spreading through society equally and indiscriminately.

[Anthony Delaney]

It is no different, really, to what has gone before, although we do get an account during this outbreak that it's spreading indiscriminately so that it's attacking the houses of the poor and the rich alike. From what I can make out, that's actually no different. It just happens to be recorded during this. Nothing changes about the ways in which the disease.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's not mutated.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, no, it's just. I think it's always been in the poor houses. It's just.

[Maddy Pelling]

Just not recorded.

[Anthony Delaney]

Just not recorded in the same way. It's. Because, like, if it's. If it's impacting court, guess where you're going to hear about court. You know what I mean? You're not going to hear about the lowly or. But then once you get a bit more used to it and it's been around a few more times, it's like, well, actually, it's over there, too. We forgot about that one. It's always been over there, but now you can hear about it a bit more. So, yeah, they do say that in the final outbreak, but I don't think. I don't think there's anything different about it really, in that sense.

[Maddy Pelling]

The written record that we have about it is patchy at best.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, it is.

[Maddy Pelling]

And it doesn't really give us an insight into what it was, where it came from or where it went. It just disappears after this.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And again, like we spoke about some of the speculation that people have had since. And again, I love this when people look back, potentially I'm not supposed to, but I do.

[Maddy Pelling]

Anthony loves vague speculation and I love a conspiracy theory.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, true. It feels like it's very inventive almost. It's very like, oh, okay, let's go with that. But here are some of the other. I said hantavirus before, Right. Some kind of hantavirus pulmonary syndrome that's been. This is all modern.

[Maddy Pelling]

These are medical words that you're saying to me.

[Anthony Delaney]

They are anthrax.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So that was another thing. A novel strain of influenza. But all of this remains speculative, you have to say, because here's the thing. I think what they're getting at with some of these theories is that there must have been a mutation at some point that it can't just drop off the face of the earth, but that it's.

[Maddy Pelling]

So people became immune to it.

[Anthony Delaney]

That or it morphed into something else that we now know as the Flu.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

Something that would be a less potent strain, so you're not dying within 24 hours.

[Maddy Pelling]

So we might still be living with something that had its origins in this.

[Anthony Delaney]

Speculative, but it's just as much of.

[Maddy Pelling]

A possibility as anything else, I think, that's so tantalising. You know, we always talk about the sort of. The distance in terms of us in our present moment and wherever we're talking about in the past and the ways that we might collapse that distance and access people in their lived experience, their bodily experience. And, you know, often we can do that through the written record or through material culture or Oculus or whatever it is. And actually, the idea. I mean, it's not a. It's not a comforting idea, but the idea that we are still living with the diseases that ravage the bodies of people who've come before us, it's. You know, we say this from a very sort of privileged position with medical intervention possible today. But there's something for me that is really tantalizing that does collapse that time, that those bacteria, those viruses, whatever it is, might still be around in our bodies. And that blows my mind in the same way, you know, when you hear about, you know, someone being like the grandson of a founding Father in America because. And you have to do the maths, and you're like, how is that possible? And you realize how close history is. You know, those kind of weird facts that you see on the Internet. It really makes it tangible and present.

[Anthony Delaney]

To me this time.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, I certainly would not want to have the sweating sickness. We're very lucky to have the medical situation that we do now. But, yeah, there's something. It makes us all seem human and fallible and linked. And linked.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

And that we're part of an ongoing. Yes, you know, we're sort of. We are all linked. We are part of. Of this sort of ongoing human existence, this experiment on this rock floating through Earth, and we're all susceptible to these things. It is fascinating. It does collapse that time.

[Anthony Delaney]

One of the things on the counter of that, which. That is just as possible as what I'm about to say. And I don't know where I lie on that, to be honest, because it all seems so intangible to me in terms of my medical knowledge is not, you know, I'm not an expert in any of these diseases. There is another theory that there was a. A little ice age in the middle of the 16th century and that that stopped the disease in its pool. So it's very Jurassic park almost.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Okay. So there were environmental factors that potentially.

[Anthony Delaney]

Potentially we don't know. Like, we just don't know. And that's one of the reasons why there is this lingering legacy of the sweating sickness and why it makes it into the. Well, it makes it into the pages of Wolf hall because it's relevant to Thomas Cromwell's history, but it's also quite dramatic and it's also. It's heartrending and it speaks to loss and, you know, all of those things.

[Maddy Pelling]

And drama, you know, those individual households, those individual losses on a huge scale. You know, you've got that micro and macro history.

[Anthony Delaney]

And we have people like Thomas Cromwell, we have people like Anne Boleyn, we have people like Henry viii.

[Maddy Pelling]

Never heard of him.

[Anthony Delaney]

Never heard of any of those people. But, like, usually the people who are dying of the plague, say, remain nameless and the upper echelons of society get away with it a little bit. But we're not getting away with it here. So we're hearing about. We have figures to attach some of these illnesses to. Now, obviously, it's not a hard thing.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do you think it's thought of today as a Tudor illness? Do you think it's attached to that period in terms of how we imagine that period, how we see it in our minds?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I think so. And again, it's fits so easily into that Wolf hall thing, which is the most Tudor. Tudor thing at the moment. Even, you know, it's quite a few years old now. But still, like the TV productions, there's been stage productions, there's been several series. So when we think Tudor now, we think Wolf hall, like most people will.

[Maddy Pelling]

That history is written into our culture in some ways.

[Anthony Delaney]

So, too, is the sweating sickness, because that's part of the Wolf hall lore as well. So it has very much, I think, cemented itself as a Tudor. What did you say? A Tudor mystery history.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, a Tudor medical mystery history.

[Anthony Delaney]

All right. Don't forget medical. Yeah. So that's all I have for you now, Maddie. Finish off the episode there.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, I will be going for a shower and some fresh air and will not be going anywhere near any monasteries or the royal court. Indeed, anytime soon. Would you have legged it out to the countryside?

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Maddy Pelling]

I feel like you'd be living out there anyway. You'd be like Dick and nearly.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody talked to me. Somebody was giving out to me the other day, telling me off, in English parlance for being so hermit, and I was like, babe, I'm fine. I'm Good.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm doing fine.

[Anthony Delaney]

I am delighted with myself over here.

[Maddy Pelling]

Coaxing with Treats into the studio to talk to other people.

[Anthony Delaney]

I was like, I'm good. I'm all right. I'm happy.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so you'd survive because you're antisocial, right? Fantastic. Well, that is all we have time for. But if you have enjoyed this Tudor tale and you're not already familiar with our sister podcast, not just the Tudors with Professor Susanna Lipscomb, go and listen to that now. It's a deep dive into so many of these topics and more. If you have a suggestion for After Dark, do get in touch with us. We do read all your emails or our producers do. So email [e-mail] Bye.

[Anthony Delaney]

She read it. I wrote that. But she didn't need to read it. But she did.

[Maddy Pelling]

I could hear it in your voice.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I thought, I'm delighted you read it.

[Maddy Pelling]

See ya.

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Unknown]

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[Maddy Pelling]

Com.