The Body In The Trunk: France's Shocking 19th Century Murder Case

Summary

Summary of "The Body In The Trunk: France's Shocking 19th Century Murder Case"

Introduction

In the August 11, 2025, episode of After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal, hosts Maddy Pelling and Anthony Delaney explore one of 19th century France's most sensational murder cases. Joined by forensic expert Dr. Kat Byers, the trio delves deep into a narrative involving a mysterious death, pioneering forensic techniques, and a tangled web of deceit and control.

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Discovery of the Body

The story begins in the summer of 1889 in Lyon, where two local men, driven by an unsettling stench, discover a large, anonymous trunk in a wooded ravine near Millery. Upon opening it, they find the decomposed body of a man, whose identity remains a mystery due to severe decomposition and lack of distinguishing features.

Maddy Pelling narrates:

"The trunk itself bore no name, no clear origin. A mystery was born..." ([02:52])

The body is transported to the Lyon morgue, setting the stage for a challenging forensic investigation.

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Investigation and Forensic Breakthrough

At the morgue, the renowned criminologist Dr. La Casagne is initially unavailable due to his holiday. As a result, a junior forensic doctor, Paul Bernard, conducts the autopsy. Despite his efforts, identifying the victim proves difficult due to the advanced state of decomposition.

Dr. Kat Byers explains:

"The corpse was taken to the Leon morgue, where pioneering work began the grim task of deciphering who the deceased had been..." ([02:52])

Months later, Dr. La Casagne returns and reopens the case. Utilizing emerging forensic techniques, he meticulously examines the body, eventually identifying him as Toussaint Augustin Gouffe, a wealthy bailiff who had gone missing.

Anthony Delaney comments:

"This was a case that absolutely makes La Casagne's name as, like, a forensic doctor." ([36:18])

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Suspects and Motives

The plot introduces Michel Hrode, a seasoned scammer with a tumultuous past, and Gabrielle Bompard, a young woman with a troubled upbringing. Michel, seeking to sustain his illicit activities, recruits Gabrielle, who becomes entangled in his schemes under his coercive influence.

Kim Holderness (Dr. Kat Byers) elaborates:

"I think there is an element of coercive control going on." ([17:40])

Their dynamic is marked by manipulation and control, setting the foundation for the ensuing crime.

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The Crime Plot

Michel and Gabrielle orchestrate the murder of Gouffe using a meticulously planned scheme. They purchase a custom trunk from London, designed to conceal the body, and execute the murder by luring Gouffe into a trap at their Paris apartment. The plan involves strangling him and disposing of his body to evade detection.

Anthony Delaney remarks:

"They put his body in the trunk... the special trunk and then the next day they take it to Lyon." ([24:14])

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Manhunt and Capture

After disposing of Gouffe's body, Michel and Gabrielle flee France, embarking on an international spree of scamming across the United States and Canada. Their flamboyant behavior makes them notorious targets for the emerging international police collaboration.

Kim Holderness details:

"They end up in Vancouver, and then Michel is captured." ([38:31])

This case marks one of the earliest examples of cross-border police cooperation, showcasing advancements in forensic science and law enforcement's growing capabilities to track criminal activities.

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Trial and Public Reaction

Upon Michel's capture and return to France, the public's fascination with the case is palpable. Gabrielle becomes a media sensation, depicted as both a victim and a manipulative figure. During their trial, conflicting narratives emerge, with both parties accusing each other of responsibility for the murder. In a dramatic courtroom revelation, forced to confront each other at the original crime scene, their heated exchange leads to partial confessions and ultimately, judicial outcomes.

Anthony Delaney summarizes:

"He is sentenced to death, and she gets 20 years in prison." ([48:19])

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Legacy and Significance

This murder case not only captivated 19th century France but also had lasting implications for forensic science and international law enforcement. Dr. La Casagne's innovative techniques in the identification process set new standards for the field, while the case underscored the emerging role of media in shaping public perception of crime.

Dr. Kat Byers reflects:

"This was just one of those real breakthrough moments where the extent to which you could identify someone that shouldn't have been identifiable at that point." ([36:18])

Additionally, the case remains a subject of public intrigue, frequently revisited in media, contributing to the permanent legacy of both the crime and its investigation.

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Conclusion

"The Body In The Trunk: France's Shocking 19th Century Murder Case" offers a compelling exploration of a bygone yet remarkably detailed true crime story. By intertwining forensic milestones with the personal dramas of its central figures, the episode underscores the enduring complexities of criminal investigations and their profound impact on society. This narrative serves as a testament to the advancements in forensic science and the timeless fascination with unraveling the darkest corners of human history.

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Notable Quotes:

• Maddy Pelling: "Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence for just $49.99 when you switch to Boost Mo." ([01:56]) (Note: This is part of an advertisement and was excluded from the summary.)

• Anthony Delaney: "So this is After Dark, though. This is a podcast about the darker side of history..." ([02:29])

• Kim Holderness: "Science will get you in the end." ([10:54])

Please note that some quotes included above pertain to advertisements and non-content sections as per the transcript. In the summary, only relevant, content-related quotes have been included to maintain focus on the murder case.

Transcript

[Maddy Pelling]

Hello everyone, it's us, your hosts, Maddy Pelling and Anthony Delaney.

[Anthony Delaney]

But before we begin the show, we want to ask for a few seconds.

[Maddy Pelling]

Of your time if you're enjoying After Dark. And we love you if you are, we would love you just a little bit more if you could vote for us in the Listener's Choice category at the British Podcast Awards.

[Anthony Delaney]

So go to the Show Notes now, click the link and just then search for After Dark. Fill in your name and your email and don't forget to confirm they will send you an email you need to confirm. The whole process probably takes about 30 seconds.

[Maddy Pelling]

If you've already voted, we are so, so grateful. If you haven't stop what you are doing right now. Vote for us before you enjoy this show.

[Kim Holderness]

Hi, this is Kim and Penn Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Maddy Pelling]

Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence for just $49.99 when you switch to Boost Mo. We pulled so many all nighters to give you this deal and hey, stop messing with the mic.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm just helping this catch people's attention.

[Kim Holderness]

This is a great deal.

[Maddy Pelling]

Exactly. So it doesn't need all that.

[Kim Holderness]

Fine.

[Maddy Pelling]

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[Kim Holderness]

Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details.

[Anthony Delaney]

Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.

[Kim Holderness]

Restrictions apply. Hello.

[Anthony Delaney]

Or actually should I say bonjour and welcome to After Dark. Because in today's episode we are going to be talking about a murder case that captured the imagination of 19th century France and is said to have pioneered certain areas of the forensic sciences. But first, let's get into the heart and the heat of the action.

[Maddy Pelling]

It was the height of summer, 1889, and the city of Lyon shimmered under the sun. Just beyond its edge, in a wooded ravine near the quiet village of Millery, the air crackled under heat and the unsettling stench of decay. Two local men followed the scent and stumbled upon a large trunk abandoned in the underbush. With a mixture of curiosity, suspicion and hesitancy, they pried it open. What they found inside was horrifying. The contorted, decomposing body of a man crammed inside like cargo. His features were bloated and distorted. The scent of death came in a wave and clung to the air around them like a curse. The trunk itself bore no name, no clear origin. A mystery was born. The body inside was beyond recognition and whispered no immediate clues as to who it was or how it had got to this remote location. Just the chilling certainty that this man had not put himself there. The corpse was taken to the Leon morgue, where pioneering work began the grim task of deciphering who the deceased had been and what awful circumstances had led him to his death. What unfolded would become one of the most sensational murder cases in 19th century France. It would span continents, involve an alluring young woman, a manipulative older man, claims of hypnosis, and some of the earliest applications of modern forensic science. It shocked a nation, blurred the line between victim and accomplice, and marked a turning point in the way we investigate crime forever. This is After Dark. And this is the goofy murder case.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now, my script says that I need to say our names, but I don't want to say our names today. We say our names all the time. I'm bored of saying our names, so if you don't know who we are, just go and listen to another episode. It's absolutely fine. So this is After Dark, though. This is a podcast about the darker side of history and we are today doing a crossover between After Dark and CSI 19th Century Paris. And I'm totally here for it. And of course, we couldn't do this on our own, so we are joined by to help us through this history by morgue enthusiast. That's what it says here, that you're a morgue enthusiast. Kat and previous guest in After Dark. One of our favorite guests in After Dark, but this time she happens to be Dr. Kat Byers. Congratulations.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you. I can't decide if it's better or worse to be a morgue enthusiast. Or a morgue expert.

[Anthony Delaney]

I think morgue enthusiast is worse.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

It sounds like amateur.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And it just sounds a bit creepy, actually.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So in this episode, we are going to hear a story which centres around another morgue, because we've spoken about morgues with Kat before and we are going to talk about a Morgan Leon this time, and it's the Gouffe murder case. It's a story with a few twists and turns, as Mattie was saying there, but the emergence of some of these details that we now take for granted as part of the whole forensic science suite. So let's set the crime scene, if you will. Kat, can you tell us what is happening in France, in Paris at this time? We're in 1880. That's right, isn't it?

[Kim Holderness]

1889. Paris is actually in the middle of a world fair.

[Anthony Delaney]

God, people are mad for world fairs. I don't get the appeal. Sorry, this is a tangent. I'm just like, God, it's a lot of effort for that. I couldn't be bothered.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. I mean, it's like millions and millions of people. And it doesn't massively impact the case in a kind of a Devil in White City way, but it does mean that it adds another layer of, like, there's lots of strangers around at the time. So we've got kind of that going on. We're also towards the end of the 19th century, so in terms of, I guess, like policing and medicine, we've had all these massive developments in forensics and they're still, you know, they're still happening, they're still testing out a lot of things. But that is really changing the game in terms of how crimes are being solved and how investigations are proceeding and also how much the public are kind of getting involved in crimes as well. Because we obviously, you know, we've talked before about the morgue and how people would go and see the bodies and how there was a kind of like a real early true crime element to that. But then you add the kind of rise of sort of forensics and tabloids and newspapers writing about forensics and adding that part of the case to their reporting. And we've got detective novels going on. So you've also got this new thing where people are even more interested in how crimes are being solved from a kind of scientific and medical, legal point of view, as well as the police using these. So that all kind of comes together in this case as well, where people are not only interested in the kind of salacious Marita side of it, but also the actual techniques that the police are using and techniques that the perpetrators might have used to try and hide their actions.

[Maddy Pelling]

It strikes me, Kat. Dr. Cat. We'll have to call you Dr. Cat the entire way through now.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's how we should all refer to each other at old times. Yes, it does strike me that Paris in this moment is kind of a city of two halves, and that true crime is something that kind of collapses that distinction.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Maddy Pelling]

You've got, as you say, the World Fair going on. I think the Eiffel Tower's completed this year as well. And Paris is very much like a symbol of modernity. There are these sort of grand boulevards, there's electric lighting in the streets. There's all this scientific innovation, as you say. But then also we have morgue. We have people going and seeing the spectacle of death and sort of becoming interested, obsessed with murder in particular. And do you think it's fair to say that there is an element of that interest in detection work, in kind of restoring order, that makes the sort of ordinary, respectable citizens of Paris feel comforted in some way because they're able to glimpse this darker side? Do you think that people have faith in the police at this moment?

[Kim Holderness]

I think maybe a little bit, yeah. I think it might increase the feeling that they might be able to solve crimes and that sort of thing. But I think there's also plenty of horrific crimes happening that aren't getting solved or that are kind of dragging out for a long time. So I think it's maybe just this idea that there's a new set of tools that are available for the police. And I think part of the publicity around them is to make people feel more secure and also make potential perpetrators feel more like, we'll get you. You can run, but you can't hide because we'll track you down with all our ingenious techniques. So there's definitely an element of that in kind of publicizing these new ways of solving crimes to try and be like a deterrent. And also that there's a reality of that as well, is that, yeah, they use these new techniques to catch people that they would never have been able to otherwise. It's interesting as well, because from some of the stuff that was happening, there's maybe a suggestion that people don't have huge faith in the police. And it's hard to tell if it's a lack of faith or just wanting to insert yourself. Because, for example, there was a period of time where there was a theory that if you took A photograph of a murder victim's retina. You would see an image of the murderer in the retina.

[Maddy Pelling]

I've heard this before.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, it wasn't real, but obviously people had read about it and thought it might be true. And apparently loads of people kept writing to the morgue, being like, guys, have you thought of doing this? We've just come up with it. I think the police maybe know a little bit more about that than you do in France anyway. Obviously, in a lot of other countries it was not that way, but. So I don't know if that's more someone being like, I'm going to help solve the crime from home, or if it was more than being like, I don't know, believe that the police would have thought of this with me. Johnny in the suburbs. I've got it sorted. I'm going to contact the morgue about this. But, yeah, but there is definitely a sense of like, they're trying to give out the impression of like, you can.

[Maddy Pelling]

Run but you can't hide.

[Kim Holderness]

Science will get you in the end.

[Anthony Delaney]

I love that there's a Johnny in the suburbs for every generation.

[Kim Holderness]

Also. I love that I said Johnny, the famous French name, Pierre in the suburbs.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, good. I like it. Before we get into the details of this crime, I want you in, like, in a minute to give us an overview of what we're going to be expecting. Who is the body, who are the suspects, and who is the person in the middle of this that's going to help us to get an outcome. Just so we have an overview before we get into the nitty gritty.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so what's happened? Obviously, they found this body in Lyon and they've got basically no clues apart from the fact that it was in this trunk and the trunk has been kind of crushed off and left nearby. And the trunk has a tag on it. Obviously it was put on a train and sent from Paris to Lyon, but the date has been partially rubbed out. So they're like, we can't tell if this was this year or the year before. The body's partially decomposed. So that's a big part of this. You know, the first sort of like, few months is them just trying to get any clues whatsoever about who this guy is. And then the issue that's also happening is they take him to this Leon morgue, as we mentioned, and the guy who is the main forensics guy in Lyon, who's really famous, he's called La Casagne and he's like world famous for just criminology he's really just a leading figure. And he runs the unit in Lyon. He's on holiday because it's France, it's August. He's like, I'm having my August holidays. So a junior forensic doctor called Paul Bernard does it instead, who is not particularly good. I mean, maybe he's, you know, maybe he's good, but just in comparison, La Casagne, he's like, not the best.

[Maddy Pelling]

Has he thought of taking the photo of the retina, though?

[Kim Holderness]

You know, that's the main problem is he didn't think about doing this. If only. He went from the suburbs, got in touch about it. So he does the autopsy and they're trying to connect it because they also, there's a case going on in Paris where this bailiff, this wealthy bailiff called Toussaint Augustin Gouffe has gone missing. And they're like, okay, maybe there's a connection here. They seem to be a similar age. Like, perhaps, you know, we haven't got any leads on Gouffet. This is a random body down near Lyon, but perhaps there's a connection. But then with the autopsy, he notes down certain things like the height, the hair colour, various things that just don't match up with the body in Paris. And what's also happened in Paris in this investigation is people have been like, oh, I think I saw this guy with these two kind of like dodgy tights on the boulevard. I think he had these weird acquaintances, this man and his, quote, mistress. Maybe they're involved, but they can't tie Guffet to this body in Lyon. So the case kind of just goes cold for a while and we're just kind of stuck there being like, we've got this body in Lyon, we can't connect it to this case, we've got a missing guy. And then in Lyon, they end up, obviously, you know, putting the body in the ground. But very luckily, there is a guy who's an assistant at the morgue or at the medical faculty, and he has been reading about this case in Paris and he's like, I've just got a hunch. Like, I really just feel like we're missing something here. And as the body is going into, like, a common grave pit as well, because it's an unclean body, he marks the side of the coffin and he also takes off his hat and puts it inside the coffin and then is like, just in case, and this will go in the ground.

[Maddy Pelling]

So you said something there that was very interesting, Kat, you said about these two strangers who may have been seen with the bailiff in Paris, the bailiff who is missing. So let's rewind a few months then to pre July 1889 when this body is found. And can you introduce those two characters for us? And what they are doing potentially in the city of Paris, potentially nefariously, will hold judgment for now. Who are they?

[Kim Holderness]

So, I mean, I hesitate to call them a couple because they're not really a couple. This is a guy called Michel Hrode, who is kind of just like a businessman slash petty crook, slash maybe quite a big crook as well. One of the crazy things also about this case, as there's a lot of cases in this period, is the, like the newspaper version, the police version and then also the reality are all really quite different stories. But anyway, this guy Michel, he's just a bad guy in his late 40s by this point. He grew up between France and Spain. He speaks multiple languages, which also helps in, you know, being a crook. It's very helpful if you're trying to like run scams. He went away and joined the French army in South America. I think it was in the 1860s. He deserted or something. He got in trouble, but he ended up being able to return to France in an amnesty. And he essentially spent his entire career just like running scams between France and South America. And he has this long suffering wife who's in the French suburbs. And he just sort of comes back for a bit, steals some money, leaves, has all these mistresses all over the place and has this kind of like, yeah, sort of dark underworld life going on. And then in the late 1880s, he's back in Paris and he's working at this kind of like trading firm. And then one day this young woman turns up looking for a job and her name is Gabrielle Bompard. And so again, in the way that it's written about in the press, and then also later, even contemporary retellings, they sort of like, oh, she's his mistress and they're this kind of like crime couple together. The reality is that she had like a really complicated, difficult upbringing. She was born into a middle class family in Lyon and she kind of was just like sent off to convents and boarding schools from when she was really, really young. She was brought back to like watch her mother die and then sent away again. And so by the time she finishes school, she's just like, not in a great way. And you know, typical of the time, they're sort of like, oh, she's a boy crazy flirt. She's this, she's that she's saucy and you're like, I think actually she's probably quite traumatized and she has a horrible relationship with her father. She runs away from home, goes to Paris, gets to Paris and is like, I haven't got any money. Goes to this office to try and get a job, meets Michel and she sort of burst into tears and is like, I haven't got any money, I'm going to sleep under a bridge. And he's like, oh, I can't give you a job because you'd have to give me this whole massive deposit to get a job. But why don't I take you out for dinner?

[Anthony Delaney]

And then nothing dodged you here.

[Kim Holderness]

Nothing weird at all. He hasn't got any ulterior motives whatsoever. And then again, the way that they sort of write about this is they say, oh, she becomes his mistress. I think it was maybe a bit more of a kind of pimp situation than that. So that's kind of where we end up with this couple, is that on the boulevards they seem to be this sort of man and mistress. But the reality is that she's kind of very much under his power and he's very violent towards her. So we've got a sort of set up there where, you know, he sets her up in an apartment and these kind of things and she kind of just does whatever he tells her to do.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm so fascinated by that relationship. And I think there's some suggestion at the time, we can talk about this later, because this is something that appears in the media coverage of this case as well. But there's a suggestion that he's hypnotised her. I mean, that's sort of so 19th century. You couldn't get more so. But I think it does speak, whether or not you take that at face value, it does speak to that kind of coercion and control that he has over her.

[Penn Holderness]

Right?

[Kim Holderness]

Massively. And I think that it's interesting because a lot of the stuff about hypnotism, period, does sound like absolutely ridiculous in the way that they're talking about it and is ridiculous. But then there's a layer of it that is absolutely the equivalent of coercive control. And it's kind of 19th century way of understanding coercive control. Unfortunately, a few people put that forward at the time. Obviously we're getting ahead of ourselves here, but people do put that forward. But obviously the vast majority of people, including the police, are like, no, she's just the saucy minx. She's not hypnotized at all. She did this all of her own volition. But I think it's absolutely that. I think there's a massive sort of coercive control element going on.

[Anthony Delaney]

And, of course, the thing is, it doesn't have to be hypnotism, as you're saying, Kat, to be coercive control. There are other ways in which people can have control over. I mean, we have maybe a broader vocabulary for that now. But there is a third person in this setup that we need to address as well, and that is Toussaint Agastin Gouffet. And this is the person who, well, goes missing. But tell us a little bit about him before he ends up missing.

[Kim Holderness]

So he's a character. So Guffey, he's a bailiff, very wealthy man, also in his late 40s. He's a widower. He's got three daughters who are kind of in their late teens, early 20s. Surface level, real respectable man. But because of his job being a kind of debt collector, he sort of veers between sort of bourgeois respectability and also, you know, kind of the underworld a bit. And he is a massive womanizer. And it comes out later because, you know, when he goes missing and they're trying to sort of track his movements, that he'd slept with 20 women in July alone.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wow.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So he's, you know, he's enjoying the boulevards. He's having a good time. He's also, again, and there's some subtext in it that at one point they talk about all of this and they say something about, like, oh, you know, he's a debt collector and he was a really generous guy, and if a woman couldn't pay, he found another way. I don't know if they would call that being a generous guy.

[Maddy Pelling]

You know what? At the start of this episode, I felt sorry for the person in the suitcase. And now I'm not sure that he didn't deserve it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Hold on now. Hold on a second. Are we meeting out Justice, Maddie, on the podcast?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Retrospective justice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, it's not. I don't want to say it's not the worst person in the world for this to happen to, because no one should get murdered. But as it goes on, you do feel a little bit less sorry for him. There's also. There's a bit when the police. Because obviously, the police are just kind of like, what a guy? And there's a bit when they describe his sexual prowess as akin to the labours of Hercules.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, wow.

[Maddy Pelling]

Who?

[Anthony Delaney]

But he's pootling around the boulevards and his diary is full for July. But come July, the end of July, that's kind of the last time we see him, right?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, that is the last time we see him. He disappears one night. He's meant to join some friends at the World's Fair, and he never arrives because he has a prior appointment to go and see a woman. And then he disappears.

[Maddy Pelling]

And do we know who that woman is?

[Kim Holderness]

Well, so what had happened is he had met Michel and Gabrielle. They're all kind of boulevard acquaintance people, and they'd ended up having dinner with him one night. And Michel, who at this point has fully run out of money, is already on the make for like, I need a target. I need somebody to rob. Like, this is what I need to keep me going financially. And Goofy shows an interest, surprise, surprise in Gabrielle. And so Michel kind of comes up with this plan to bump into him a few days later on the street because he kind of knows his routine, he knows where his office is, bumps into him and says, oh yeah, me and Gabrielle have broken up. Yeah, yeah, it's not, it's not for me anymore. But you should totally go for it. Like, she was definitely really interested in you. Again, this is how they report it. It may have been a much more direct sort of business dealing, but essentially he's like, you should go for it. And also Gabrielle's at this address. Go see her tonight. And then they set up. So he walks rather down the street and then he bumps into Gabrielle. He's like, this is my lucky day. And she's like, oh, I don't know if you've heard, I broke up with Michelle. You should totally come and see me tonight. I'll be at this apartment. And so he's like, great, I'll definitely go and do that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, gouffe. I mean, come on, man, can't you see what's happening here? You're getting manipulated. It's also interesting, Kat, that you said about the relationship between Gabrielle and Michelle, that actually there may be a way, a world in which he is actually pimping her out. And like you say, that's a more direct kind of business dealing. Do you read this situation as that?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I do. And I think that the thing that's really complicated about this case, and especially about her, is I think that she's very much like a so called imperfect victim. And that is like evident throughout the whole case and especially later on in the trial and all this kind of stuff. But I don't think that she had much power. And so I think there's also a massive part of that that, you know, like, you're saying that coercive stuff is really complicated. Just because she was walking freely in the streets doesn't mean she wasn't under the control of this. So I think it was. She was definitely involved in the planning and in the execution of what would happen. But I think there's an element of which she was kind of just caught up. She was also very young. I think she was about 19 at this point. 19 or 20. And these guys are also way older than her. So there's an element of that. But, yeah. So they invite her over to this apartment that they've rented. And he turns up and says, hello, little demon. I know. Yeah, the little demon stuff is so weird. They always call her that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wow.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. So also, again, they both have different versions of this, but what happened is they had. So they'd gone to London and bought this trunk. It'd been really well planned. And then they sewed this kind of special, like, dressing gown cord. And they'd also rented this apartment and nailed, like, a pulley with a rope to the ceiling and then hidden it behind a curtain. And they had this whole, like, sort of lounge chair set up. And so Gufe turns up and she's there, like, in a little robe. Here, have some cognac. Have a biscuit. And she sits on the chair, and there's a curtain behind the chair. And behind the curtain, Michel is waiting. Obviously, Gruffy doesn't know he's there. And then things start happening. And while he's, like, opening up her dressing gown, she takes the loop off and, like, playfully puts it over his neck while looping it through this rope above her.

[Anthony Delaney]

Wow.

[Kim Holderness]

Ties it. And then while Gouffe is distracted, Michel yanks the rope from behind the curtain, with the idea being that it's supposed to strangle him. When the pulley breaks, Cufue falls the floor. Michel jumps out from behind the curtain and strangles him. And then this becomes a massive point of contention because obviously, when it comes down to it later, Michel is like, you did it. You shrank. You did it with the rope. And then Gabrielle is like, no, you strangled him. So that becomes this massive point of who specifically did it. But the autopsy showed that he was strangled, so it's more likely to be Michelle. But there. So they do that, and then they put his body in the trunk.

[Anthony Delaney]

The one that they bought in London.

[Kim Holderness]

The one they bought in London. The special trunk and then the next day they take it to Lyon.

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[Anthony Delaney]

Isn't it really interesting the level of kind of stagecraft that went into that? And it speaks to something that you're saying. I mean, jury's out for me on Gabrielle. I absolutely will fully get behind the theory that there is coercive control considering the situation she's in when she comes here and she falls under this influence one way or the other. But the level of stagecraft that's gone into what they concoct there is so interesting. But it also speaks to the fact that Gabrielle is a very useful tool actually in terms of how he would execute a lot of crimes. Like think of how useful a 19 or 20 year old woman is to help commit these crimes. So very likely he is using her as a tool with which to just gain more badly sought or ill gotten gains. So we have a body in a trunk now, a London trunk. I don't know why I'm fixating on that detail, but for some reason it feels odd. I feel like there's gonna be trunks in Paris. Just go there, it's fine. Or Leon even for that matter. But the body is in the trunk. But they decide, okay, we need to rid ourselves of this evidence.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, exactly. And also, just to what you were saying, it is kind of like almost like a honey trap set up is kind of the way they use her. And the police at one point describe her as an instrument of perfect pleasure, which is also just an incredibly fucked up thing to say.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

So it is kind of that idea of being like, I can just. This woman is a great, like, yeah, like a little appealing target for everything anyway. So I think also they go to London to get the trunk because they think it won't be traced. Little do they know it will be. And yeah, then they go down to Lyon. He knows Lyon well. He sort of lived near there at one point.

[Maddy Pelling]

Kat, just for our international listeners, just give us a sense of where Leon is in relation to Paris, because it's. I mean, they're traveling quite far here, aren't they?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I mean, it's a couple of hours on the train, so it's like a big enough trip. It's like not so long that they're gonna have to spend days doing it. Yes, but I think also more than anything, it was about the fact that he kind of knew the surrounding area of Lyon. And he was like, we'll go to Lyon, we'll take the body in the trunk, then we'll hire a horse and car and we'll drive out to this random kind of bit of countryside, and then we'll throw it off the side of a ravine. And I guess if you're planning ahead, you're like, I want to know where the ravines are. In order to do this, I'll go to a ravine I'm familiar with. And I think also they were like, it's far enough away that people are not going to hopefully connect this to Paris.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Because I think that's the thing. Like, in today's world, going two hours on the train to ditch some evidence for crime is probably quite a minimal effort, really. But, you know, this is 1889, and as modern as Paris is, like, this is still a world where there's no cctv. Like, you're not easily traced. You can move about the country with relative anonymity, I suppose, at this moment. Okay, so they ditch the trunk and presumably they go back to Paris. Do they at this point?

[Kim Holderness]

Well, they go back to Paris very briefly to pick up a hat and some other stuff, which is a whole side thing.

[Anthony Delaney]

It couldn't be without your hat. Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. It's a whole kind of thing. There's a lot of weird decisions made. I guess maybe your head's not straight after you've just killed somebody. But anyway, they make a lot of weird decisions. Obviously, they robbed Buffet for his money. He only had 150 francs on him in the end. And Michel went to the office to try and get some money and didn't manage to get any. So they didn't even actually get any money out of it. So it really wasn't worth it. They go back to Paris briefly, and then they go to Marseille, and then they just kind of go on the run. They go over to London, they go to Liverpool, and then they get a boat to the us so they just get straight out of Dodge and she, like, cuts her hair and they dress her as a boy. She's also really tiny. She's like 4 foot 8, I think. So they dress her as, like, father and son.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's like the Crippen case. We spoke to Hallie Rubenhold recently about her book, A Story of a Murderer, which is about that case. And it's exactly the same thing. I suppose that's two decades later. Something like that.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

But, yeah, that's. That's so interesting.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Weirdly common. I think that if the woman is small enough, they're like, let's be father and son.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Which is always creepy because, like, the Crippin case, that Relationship between those two people is actually really troubled and deeply sexual. And then there's something quite sort of weird and problematic about them being like, yeah, father and son is the obvious and easy option for us here. It's quite strange.

[Kim Holderness]

There's also. Doesn't mean. There's a weird layer to that with this whole case in general, because she is so tiny. Like, she's really young and really small. And in between calling her like, this incredible seductress, they also keep talking about how childlike she is.

[Maddy Pelling]

I don't know if you want to.

[Kim Holderness]

Be writing that in your police memoirs, but.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

And yet. And yet they did.

[Kim Holderness]

And yet. They proudly did.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. So they've gone to wherever they've gone now they're off.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

And then Mattie was saying, in the very, very beginning, we get to August, so where are we now? We're like, what? A couple of weeks later, on the 13th of August, 1889, this trunk is found and we have a decomposing body inside. The body is taken to the morgue at Lyon. And it's really difficult, as Mattie was describing, to identify because it's been a while and there's decomposition and all that kind of thing. Enter Mr. Lasagna. In fact, sorry, Dr. Lasagna, for giving everybody their proper titles. Enter Dr. Him, and he is a forensic pathologist. Give us his proper name and then let us know how he becomes involved in this.

[Kim Holderness]

So basically, the evidence starts stacking up that maybe this is goofy. Various things come together and they start to be like, you know what? We should reopen this case. And one of the things that happens is that they. Even before Lasagne gets involved, is that they'd kept, like, a little snippet of his hair and they'd been like, oh, well, this hair's black and his hair was, like, sort of reddish brown. It can't be him. And then the police chief puts it in some water and is like, oh, wait, we just needed to wash. It turns out. Look at that. So basically, the few things happen where people are like, maybe we should look into this again. And they also managed to trace the ticket from the trunk. The Paris Lyon. Realise the dates all line up and they're like, okay, let's get him back out the ground. At this point, he's been in the ground for four months. He'd already been in the hot Lyon summer for a couple weeks the first time around, so he's not in a good way. At the original autopsy, they said that his brain resembled boiled meat. So this is the kind of situation we've got. But fortunately, Dr. Lacazony has an incredibly strong stomach and is somehow really good at his job for lots of reasons. But I think part of it is also that he is able to deal with these kind of situations. So this guy pipes up and says, oh, actually, I know where the coffin is because I put a marker on it and I put my hat inside. So they dig it up and they start a new autopsy. It's now November. Died in July. It's now November. And they start a brand new autopsy. And they do, because they've been sort of inventing all these new techniques, and Lacazagne is at the forefront of developing Laura's own techniques. They remeasure the body and decide that it's a slightly different height than they'd originally thought. And so then they also contact the office that holds Cuffe's military records. The height aligns great. They measure the head. They contact his hat maker. That aligns great. They do things like check the level of tartar in his mouth and align that with his age. Again, exactly. Perfect. They find an injury on his ankle bone. They contact his family and find out he broke his ankle as a child. All these different things. There's a missing molar in the right place. They contact his dentist, they contact his daughters and get his hairbrush and match the hair to his head. So they do all these incredibly elaborate techniques and then they have it. So they've got like, this is 100% the match. It's him.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wow. I love that they contacted his hat maker. Why are hats such a big theme in this? That is so amazing. You're saying all this cat in a big, long list. And it kind of makes sense to me hearing that. I'm thinking, yeah, of course they would do that stuff. Now, that would be routine to do all of that. But how groundbreaking is this at the time?

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, this is a case that absolutely makes La Casagne's name as, like, a forensic doctor. I mean, he was obviously very well known already kind of in his field and in the work that he was developing. And he'd started off kind of as a military doctor, and he had this obsession with tattoos, and he kept, like, taking the tattoos off people and stuff. It's a whole weird side thing he had going on.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do you mean, like, taking their skin off? Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

So he was like a military doctor in the sort of North Africa when France had colonized part of North Africa, and he got really obsessed with prisoners and prison tattoos. And so in his archive collection, there's all these tattoos. He also had weird stuff like he had a paperweight in his office that was taken of the model of a female criminal's hand. And he also had it as a door knocker at his house. So he had a lot going on and he was already known. But this case kind of really elevated his position. And also, I think the level of technique and the level of certainty that they were able to get from a man who was totally unrecognizable was absolutely groundbreaking. So, you know, they've been used, like I said, they've been developing medical, legal stuff and using lots of different techniques in cases. But this was the scenario when it was like, you should not have been able to identify that body even a few years before. I think they would have totally gotten away with it. But because of like, yeah, just. And also the fact that because Guffet was like a middle class man, like a bourgeois man, they had various records on him, which was quite helpful too.

[Anthony Delaney]

And they were able to determine the fact that he had been strangled. They were able to determine all of those things during this process, which of course then is so valuable as the case goes on. What I want to do then is once we have Gouffe, we're still quite a bit off finding out why this has happened to him, who did it, except that there is a pretty important clue that we've been hinting at throughout, and that clue is the trunk. So am I right in guessing that the trunk is what starts to lead them towards the suspects at this point?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. So we have this broken trunk and we have this amazing institution, I don't know if you've heard of it, called the Paris Morgue.

[Maddy Pelling]

That is really good if you want.

[Kim Holderness]

To get a whole bunch of people to come and look at something. And so obviously, again, this is like the late 1880s. Everyone knows about the morgue. It's super, super famous. And so the police are like, we think it was probably Michel and Gabrielle, but we haven't got enough to tie them to it. We need to tie them to the trunk. Like, that's what's going to get this all together. Let's get somebody to rebuild this exact trunk because the original one is like mashed up. We'll rebuild the exact specifications, but the same star lined paper inside all of that, put it on display in the morgue next to the broken one and kind of explain trying to figure out where this trunk came from. Because obviously they're like, if we can figure out where they bought it we can go to the shop and they can be like, we recognize these people. And obviously at this point they've gone around all the trunk makers in Paris, I can only assume, but they're like, maybe somebody will recognize it. And also I think at this period, trunks are kind of like specially made, or it's a specially made trunk for weird dimensions. So they're like, it's not your bog standard trunk. Let's see what happens. They put it on display at the morgue. Everyone goes mental, as they always do at the morgue. Like massive queues to just see a trunk. Everyone goes through that and then at some point someone turns up and is like, oh, yeah, that's made by a guy who makes trunks in Gower street in London. Wow.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm just imagining Michelle and Gabrielle walking into the shop in Gower street in London and being like, we need very specific dimensions for this trunk. The dimensions are a human man. If you can fit a human in, we will take it.

[Kim Holderness]

We want you to picture a bailiff. He's about this high, squishing.

[Maddy Pelling]

He will be squished.

[Kim Holderness]

Apart from that, we're definitely using it for women's clothes. That's what it's for. But if hypothetically we wanted to put.

[Maddy Pelling]

A bailiff in it, totally fine. Okay, so we have the names or the identities of Michelle and Gabrielle. It's kind of hinted at when people are, I suppose witnesses are originally saying, we've seen the bailiff on the street with these people. And then I guess there's the train ticket as well. Right. And then there's now the trunk. So this is pretty, pretty compelling evidence. But of course, our suspects have gone to the us so is there now a race to catch them? What happens next?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, so now everyone's a bit like, oh, shit, they've definitely left the country. Like, how are we gonna get hold of them? And so there's sort of a bit of an international manhunt that kicks off. And so they're sort of contacting authorities in New York, contacting authorities in Montreal. And Michelle and Gabrielle are now just like they're moving cities all the time and they're trying to just like sort of move around the US they end up in Vancouver. And then obviously, Michelle being the way he is, he's like running little scams the whole time because they haven't got any money because they didn't get any money off. Goofy. So he's like running these little scams and like scamming people. And he's also like, kind of flamboyant. So they're not like the most subtle people in the world. Because he's also just like seducing people left, right and center and like stealing their money and their coats. It's a bit when he steals someone's fur coat. And anyway, all this is happening and then they meet a French guy called Garangier who they sort of fall in with. And Michel starts setting up like a fake scam distillery business. And he manages to get Garangier to kind of invest in it. And there's this weird thing going on. But then Garangier sort of has a thing for Gabrielle and there's like this weird sort of. It's hard to tell if the setup between Gabrielle and Garangier is like. Like a love match or if it's kind of just a convenience thing or who's getting what over on who. Anyway, basically they are sort of having a bit of a situation. Michel recognizes this. And Michel and Gabriel at this point are pretending to be uncle and niece.

[Maddy Pelling]

It just gets weirder and weirder.

[Kim Holderness]

It's the whole thing, it's really fucked up. And then Michel basically decides that he's going to rob and murder Garanger, who's quite wealthy for some reason. He sets this up by first saying to Garanger, like, oh, can you take Gabrielle back to France? Her aunt has died. And then some of that money I owe you will be in France, so you can go and get it. So he sets up this whole thing with the plan that Gabrielle will actually take him to New York instead of to France, and then Michel will come and murder him. It's kind of an elaborate plot. Really know how it was going to work. Anyway, as soon as Gabrielle and Garanger leave, she tells him everything and is like, this is the situation. My real name is Gabrielle. This is the whole situation. And all those newspapers you may have seen, because also there's newspapers around the world and they're reporting the case. She's like, you may have seen this case. That's me. And then they decide to go back to France and she decides to hand herself in to the police because she's like, I'm fully innocent. This wasn't my fault. I'm just going to go into, tell them what happened and it'll be fine. They leave and she, like runs off. And obviously Michel realizes this when he gets to New York and she's not there. So she goes to France and she tries to hand herself in. The first day she goes to the police, she's like, I'm Gabrielle Bompard. And they're like, okay, do you have a letter like, we don't know who you are that come back to come back tomorrow. And she leaves and she does come back again, again. I feel like she should get some kudos for her. Anyway, Michel at this point is just like running around. America's still doing more scams and he ends up in Havana and they catch him like six months later. So that also becomes this massive like international police collaboration. But they managed to finally track him down and get him. It's that time of year again, back to school season. And Instacart knows that the only thing harder than getting back into the swing of things is getting all the back.

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[Anthony Delaney]

It's interesting because in terms of Gabrielle, I think she, I think actually Gabrielle for me is the most fascinating person within this setup because what we're seeing is somebody who has become caught up in this web of Michel's lies and deceit and she's just a tool in his thing. Or we're seeing somebody who we're underestimating and who they knew would have been underestimated at the time too, who actually, despite the fact that if this is, if this is the case, despite the fact that she's involved in these Terrible things is smart and is quite savvy and maybe even recognizes when the jig is up and goes. You know what? The smart thing for me to do right now would not be to go down to Havana, but would be to go and start my narrative. Now, there is a savviness in that, which is very easy to overlook by just saying, oh, maybe she was, you know, totally innocent of all of this, blah, blah, blah. But there's a smartness to her at the same time. That woman knows how to survive and we have to give her that as well as part of the story, which is why it's so compelling, because it's so difficult. But by the time we get them both back, right, they're both back in France. Now, is there a trial? What happens to these two people?

[Kim Holderness]

There is a trial. And also to your last point, I totally agree. And I think that she is really, really smart, massive, incredible survival instinct, and also can kind of tell the way the wind's blowing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And knows what to do. And I think, and this is, I think, why people got so fascinated with the case, partly because of all the forensics and like kind of the craziness of the narrative, but also because she just, you just couldn't pin her down. And she's not one specific thing. And this is why I say very much that she's like this imperfect victim because she also, like, she knows how to play things as well as being a victim of them. And so there's this whole thing about her being this like wily seductress, which I don't think is fully true at all. But I can see also why you would, why people were interpreting her that way. But then on the other hand, yeah, she's this like, obviously a victim of all this control. So she's this really, really interesting character that just no one can pin down at all. But yeah, so she comes back to France, she gives herself in, and then she sort of goes through all these interrogations, but they can't really finish up the case until they get him. And then they finally catch him, they bring him back. And also at this point, Paris is like absolutely crazy for the case. They write about it non stop. She's become a celebrity, which she does really enjoy. She's like out there being like, look at me, this is great. Which, you know, fair play, why not? And they also, they even, like the famous wax museum even sets up like a tableau of the murder scene so that everyone can go and be like, imagine this is what it looked like. And then once he gets back. So she is absolutely terrified of him. Doesn't want to have to see him. Obviously, she, like, kind of got away from him, and she starts saying, I don't want to see him. I don't want anything to do with him. I'm scared of him. What they do is they make both of them go to the original crime scene and then be like, all right, tell us what happened now that you're here. And so they have them. And obviously he says, it wasn't my. You know, I didn't do it. She was the one that, like, strangled him with the cord. She says, how dare you? You're a liar. You're the one that strangled him. So they just start screaming at each other. That works out really, really well for the police. And obviously. And at least at that point, the newspapers are like, that was a terrible idea. Why would you have done that? Anyway, then it goes to trial, and they have this kind of long, complicated trial. There's lots of accusations of hypnosis. The lawyer says that she was hypnotized by him. His lawyer says he was hypnotized by her, and he was just this pro. Innocent man that was seduced by this femme fatale.

[Anthony Delaney]

I like that. None of us are even considering that that's a possibility. Like, that's like, all right. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

He's like, you know what's a great defense?

[Anthony Delaney]

Let's say what she's doing.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Feminine wiles. They get you.

[Maddy Pelling]

They're gonna get you.

[Kim Holderness]

I think also, there's an interesting thing with this case that people start to get really freaked out about. Like, her as this, like, threat to bourgeois men. And there's a big thing about that as well, of being like, that's what scares people about her, is that, you know, she was a seductress, and she did a lot of air quotes here and murdered this guy. And so there is this thing of being like, you're just a wealthy man living your life, sleeping with all these women, and you could just get murdered. Like, that could happen to you, too.

[Maddy Pelling]

By a tiny girl, no less.

[Kim Holderness]

By a tiny girl with her feminine wiles. So that's a big part of this, too. And then at the end of the trial, he is sentenced to death, guillotine, and she gets 20 years in prison.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, and one also detail. So they do this outside the execution, but they also do this outside the morgue, is they make little replicas of the trunk. By they, I mean, like, local artisans make replicas of the trunk with a tiny body inside that you can buy as a souvenir.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, I didn't realize it was like you could buy as a souvenir. Okay, that's.

[Kim Holderness]

Remember the trial, all your memories.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think there's so much in the end of this case and about kind of replication, right? About obviously we have early on the trunk and the replica of the trunk being taken to the morgue for people to see. And then we've got them returning to the crime scene later on. And then now we've got these kind of tourist trinkets. It's so interesting that on the one hand it's a case that's seen as abhorrent and a threat to middle class respectability, but also it's one that people want to revel in. Right. That they want to kind of relive again and again and have a piece of. Obviously, in terms of. I mean, we find this so much at the end decades of the 19th century. And, you know, certainly when we've looked at Jack the Ripper and cases around the 1880s in London, we find that the media can distort so much of the narrative that's taking place. And Kat, you know, you said yourself at the beginning that there's huge disparities between the police records and what you can read in print. I think it's fair to say that that takes an enormous toll, I suppose, on maybe even the outcome of the trial itself. Right. That Gabrielle is not let off. I mean, she's got 20 years in prison, but it's possibly better than being guillotined. But in terms of the importance of this case scientifically, can you tell us something about that? Because I think it's obvious that there is this kind of media storm. But what does this mean long term?

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, I think it's kind of, like I said before, a bit of a landmark case in terms of not only the possibilities of forensics, of medical legal development in the legal system. And like I said before, they'd been developing medical legal stuff for a long time. But this was just one of those real breakthrough moments where the extent to which you could identify someone that shouldn't have been identifiable at that point. But then I think also, again, like we talked about at the beginning, the idea of like sending that message to would be criminals and having that idea of being like, this is the level that policing technology has gotten to. This is how much we're now able to sort of track people down, detect crimes. Even the fact that you can run away to Havana and still be caught. And I know you were talking before about Hallie Ribbonhold's new book about the Crippen murder, and that obviously being this case where they caught him and there was the wireless and all that stuff. And this is like. Was this 15 years before that? Maybe more so. That, again, is like this really early example of international police collaboration as well, because that's something you're starting to see a bit more and more in this period. It's still really quite casual and it's quite based on individuals. And there's plenty of bits in this case where people are just, like, absolutely bungling it, but that there is an ability to sort of contact police departments around the world and kind of arrange a sting basically together. Because when they catch him in Havana, it's all these different people are involved in, like, trying to get him and trying to figure out where he is and corner him, essentially, because he was so good at getting away. So that's a massive part of it as well. And I think also it's another one of those cases where public interest lingers for so long. And they do continue to repeat it in the press, like, fairly often, even after the whole thing's over. And also, you know, even in like, the 20s, 30s, 40s, now and again, there'll be a press roundup of, like, crazy French murder cases, and they'll put that one in there. And every time it gets further and further away from what actually happened, but that becomes, you know, it just becomes like a definitive tale. And they sort of reduce everyone down to these, like, monster criminals. And she obviously becomes, yeah, this kind of like, she devil sort of idea in the. In the press. And actually, so she's released from prison after 12 years for good conduct. And obviously there's a bit of a flurry about that in the press. And then there's a bit of a moment where she kind of takes up with this guy who defended her with the hypnosis thing in the case, and they're like, oh, we're gonna perform hypnosis in front of people. So there's this whole weird thing, and they try and go to the US and she gets deported because she's got criminal records. And then she sort of disappears from the record at that point. But then in 1920, there's suddenly this resurgence again of all these reports that she's died. And so there's this whole thing that comes out and they say, oh, she died in this tiny French town. And again they talk about the crime again, and they give a little summary of it. And then they don't really give any details apart from she was living there and they say, oh, she was living in misery. And, you know, kind of a bit of a good riddance sort of vibe to all the articles. And then that's supposedly the end of it. But then there's one journalist at a tiny little paper who's like, oh, let me just go up there and see what the deal is. Like, surely there's a death record. Surely there's something. And then he goes up and finds no evidence of her whatsoever.

[Anthony Delaney]

As I'm listening to you talk, Kat, and as we look back over the details of this case, one of the things that's really popping into my mind is that we always say on this podcast, we want to make true crime work really hard in order to get as much from it as we can. And this is why we are fans of historic true crime on here, because they are minefields, I think, in order to tell us something about the past. Because what we have here is we have insights into women's life in 19th century Paris. We have insights into scientific advancement, we have insights into the changing landscape of the legal outlook in the 19th century. We have international travel, we have forensics. We have so much going on. And this is exactly what we mean by making true crime work hard. Look at the amount of historic detail that this one story, this one history can tell us. And it's why I think we really need to unpack these stories in the way that you just had for us, because it can tell us so much about the time. It's about so much more than the story, which in itself, of course is so compelling, like obviously enough. But in terms of that scene setting, setting the time period, it's just, it really, really is invaluable. And I think that's where historic true crime really comes into itself. So thank you, Dr. Cat, once more for your guide through 19th century. Well, not just France, also America, Montreal, all over the place world. Thank you so much for listening. If you have enjoyed this episode, please do leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. And also we have a YouTube channel, did you know? If not, go and check that out now and you can see different episodes on there and we'll be adding to them once a week all the time. We'd love to hear your ideas, of course, for future shows. So do get in touch on after darkhistoryhit.com and until next time, thanks for listening. Hey, this is Jonathan Fields, host of the Good Life Project podcast. Boost Mobile reminds me of what I love when someone reimagines what's possible Offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee While other carriers spend millions on flashy super bowl ads, Boost Mobile puts those dollars towards what matters more, delivering reliable nationwide coverage at prices that make you wonder why we've been paying so much for just $25 a month. You get unlimited service that will never go up in price. Not next year, not ever. And they're so confident you'll love it, they back it with a 30 day money back guarantee, no questions asked. Want to see if Boost Mobile is right for you? Visit your nearest Boost mobile store or boostmobile.com customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and Sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.