The Doctor Who Shocked Victorian Britain

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal – "The Doctor Who Shocked Victorian Britain"

Date: May 21, 2026
Host: Antony Delaney (with guest co-host Kat Irving)
Podcast: History Hit

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the strange and controversial world of Dr. Kahn’s Anatomical Museum, a Victorian-era exhibit in London infamous for its morbid wax models, preserved human remains, and scandalous educational displays—especially concerning sexual health. Host Antony Delaney, joined by guest co-host Kat Irving (human remains conservator, Surgeons' Hall, Edinburgh), sheds light on the fine line between education, exploitation, morality, and spectacle in Kahn’s museum, unpacking its history, exhibits, audience, and ultimate downfall.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Morbid Curiosity in Victorian Britain

• Opening Vignette (02:14): Antony sets the stage with a vivid depiction of the museum's displays—"rotting flesh, blackened limbs, genitals ravaged by disease"—posing the core question: education or exploitation?
• Location: Dr. Kahn’s Anatomical Museum at 315 Oxford Street, Victorian London, depicted as both immersive and disturbing.

2. Kat Irving's Unique Perspective (05:36)

• Description of Kat’s Workplace: Kat details her own basement office surrounded by shelves of human remains, creating a fitting context for her insights into anatomical history.
  • Quote (05:36, Kat): “It looks a bit like you might expect something in a Frankenstein lab, but that is not what I am doing down there.”

3. Inside Dr. Kahn’s Museum – Exhibits and Sensations

• Typical Visit Experience (07:33): A heady mix of medical specimens in jars, lifelike wax models of anatomy and disease, and even a living "heterodelph"—a person with supernumerary limbs.

  • Quote (07:33, Kat): “You will see body parts preserved in jars… beautiful wax models… and things you might not expect. From 1857, he has what’s called a heterodelph, and that’s actually a living person.”

• The Heterodelph (08:09–10:54):

  • A man with additional lower limbs, displayed as a cross between anatomical curiosity and freak show.
  • Discussion of the ethical and human side of such displays, with empathy toward those exhibited.
  • Quote (09:12, Kat): “He has a young male body, and then coming out of just below his diaphragm is another lower torso and then another pair of limbs… so he has these extra legs.”
  • Quote (10:54, Kat): “It’s such a sad story. It is, you know, really, really want to just bring home that, you know, these are people.”

• The Anatomical Venus (11:36–13:44):

  • A wax model of a beautiful, semi-reclined woman whose torso opened to reveal removable internal organs—a blend of sexuality, idealized anatomy, and scientific curiosity.
  • Quote (12:28, Kat): “She has a wax panel on the front of her body that you can remove… right down to teeny, tiny wax fetus… It’s a very sexualized map.”
  • Antony draws a comparison between the sexualized gore of these models and later sensationalist crime stories like the Jack the Ripper cases.

4. Audiences, Access, and Victorian Morality

• Who Could Visit? (14:26, 15:44):
  • Early displays were sometimes open to the public (even in pubs!), but women’s access was restricted—sometimes women-only days, or certain models hidden when women present.
  • Debate over class and respectability: anatomical literacy seen as something for the educated elite.
  • Quote (15:33, Kat): “Under the pretense of imparting anatomical knowledge, this filthy figure… is exhibited.” (Citing 1825 newspaper on the Venus model in Soho).
  • Quote (17:09, Kat): “It’s not right that certain people know about these things… there are certain museums that hold anatomical collections, and you can only go and see them if you are in the medical profession.”

5. Who Was Dr. Kahn? Business, Credentials, and Controversy (20:45–22:48, 24:01–31:17)

• Background:
  • Kahn was a German showman with no real medical degree, despite the “Dr.” title.
  • More a businessman and educator than a licensed practitioner, shifting prices to attract visitors.
• Victorian Medical Professions Explained:
  • Clear distinctions between physicians (university-trained, elite), surgeons (apprenticeships, practical), and apothecaries (akin to pharmacists, sometimes acting as GPs), alongside unlicensed “quack doctors.”
  • Quote (24:01, Kat): “Usually a physician is somebody who has been to university… but as with Dr. Kahn, there isn’t really anything to stop you just saying you’re a doctor.”

6. Sex, Disease, and Victim-Blaming (31:32–34:51)

• Venereal Disease on Display:
  • Kahn’s museum featured models vividly revealing the ravages of STDs—not discussed publicly but a source of prurient fascination and cautionary spectacle.
  • Quote (32:59, Kat): “These things are not talked about very much. So people are fascinated… the fact that we don't really know what the inside of our bodies look like.”
• Moral Messaging:
  • Wax heads depicting “sufferers” of spermatorrhea (excessive semen discharge) and masturbation, equating sexuality with bodily decay—significantly moralizing content.
  • Quote (34:34, Kat): “There was a model of the head and face of somebody who practiced Onanism… masturbation.”

7. Respectability v. Scandal: Kahn’s Downfall

• Changing Medical and Social Attitudes (35:20–39:29):
  • The Lancet medical journal at first praised Kahn’s museum (36:38) but later condemned it as a “den of obscenity” (39:16) after his partnership with Perry & Co., sellers of quack STI remedies.
  • Quote (36:38, The Lancet): “We've paid a visit and we're much gratified with the collection… Altogether, it is a splendid collection and a great deal of general information is to be obtained by visiting it.”
  • Quote (39:17, Lancet): “Disgusting and immoral, depraving the mind of the ignorant and unwary.”
• Business Model Evolution:
  • Once profits declined, Kahn began touring the collection and partnered with Perry & Co., blending education with commercial snake-oil sales.
  • Quote (37:59, Kat): “He’s going into partnership with them. He’s using his models so that he can educate people about venereal diseases. He’s giving lectures. And then you exit through the gift shop and you can buy some of Perry and Co's remedies.”
• The End: Prosecution and Destruction (43:06–45:37):
  • The 1858 Medical Act required doctors to register, barring Kahn from legal practice.
  • The 1857 Obscene Publications Act targeted “conduct inconsistent with public morals,” impacting museums like his.
  • In 1873, after the Society for the Suppression of Vice took up the case, Kahn’s anatomical models were destroyed in court—a sad ending for his once innovative but increasingly condemned museum.
  • Quote (45:15, Kat): “Can I have the pleasure of smashing these models myself? … these are anatomical models… The Times noted how elaborate and how expensive these models would be at the time… breaks my little heart.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Audience:
  • “If I have to practice a talk, I give it for the skeletons. So they're my first audience.” (06:42, Kat Irving)
• On Anatomical Models & Morality:
  • “It’s a very sexualized map.” (13:03, Kat Irving, discussing the Venus model)
• On Education vs Exploitation:
  • “There really is this tension and dichotomy… he is educating, he is right in some ways, but then he's exploitative in other ways.” (39:03, Antony Delaney)
• On Kahn’s Fate:
  • “In 1873… some of these models are confiscated and… prosecution takes place. … Can I have the pleasure of smashing these models myself?” (45:15, Kat Irving)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:14 – Antony’s graphic introduction to Kahn’s museum
• 05:36 – Kat describes her own anatomical workspace
• 07:33 – What visitors saw at Kahn’s museum (jars, waxes, living heterodelph)
• 11:36 – The wax “Anatomical Venus” and its sexualized display
• 14:26–17:46 – Who could visit? Gendered and class distinctions on museum access
• 20:45–22:48 – Dr. Kahn: credentials, business motivations, and audience
• 24:01–31:17 – Explanation of Victorian medical professions and unlicensed healers
• 31:32–34:51 – Public shaming, taboos, and moralizing of sexual health
• 36:38, 39:17 – The Lancet’s reviews: praise, then harsh condemnation
• 43:06–45:41 – Obscene Publications Act and destruction of the museum’s models
• 46:25 – Reflections on Kahn's legacy and historical uncertainty

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Episode Tone & Flow

The conversation is intimate, thoughtful, and sometimes darkly humorous—balancing empathy for “the people behind the pathology” with curiosity about Victorian oddities. Antony is enthusiastic and irreverent, while Kat brings both expertise and compassion to the stories of those put on display. Their dialogue veers from vivid anatomical descriptions to social context, always returning to the essential question: where is the line between knowledge and spectacle?

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Final Thoughts

The story of Dr. Kahn’s Anatomical Museum is revealed as a microcosm of Victorian anxieties about sex, disease, class, gender, and the human body. While intended as an educational space, it was ultimately swept aside as public attitudes shifted and authorities cracked down on what was deemed indecent. The episode is as much an exploration of historic shame and spectacle as it is a lament for lost stories—highlighting the fine line between teaching and exploiting, and the vulnerabilities of those whose bodies (alive or dead) were put on display.

“It’s exploitative, but it also seems to be educational. But at the same time, the people who are saying that it's exploitative are also exploiting it in their own way for other ends. It’s just so very Victorian and it's such a great little story.” – Antony Delaney (46:25)

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

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[Antony Delaney]

Rotting flesh, blackened limbs. Genitals ravaged by disease. Behind a discreet doorway on Victorian London's Oxford street, visitors stepped into a world of wax. Glass cases revealed bodies frozen in decay. Skin blistered, eyes hollow. Limbs contorted by disease. But it would all end in scandal for Dr. Kahn and his museum but was this a place of medicine or of theater, A moral lesson? Or an attraction built on fear and shame? As respectable gentlemen filed past these grotesque displays, they're forced to confront not only the fragility of the body, but the uneasy question, is this education or exploitation? After Dark, listeners and viewers, we are going to take you right to the heart of 315 Oxford Street. It's the middle of the 19th century. You're going to be immersed in this bizarre, wonderful, questionable world of Dr. Kahn's anatomical museum. But it is so bizarre, so strange, so horrifying to some extent that I am not doing this alone. And because Maddie is currently collecting samples in the Andes, samples of what nobody knows. I have decided that the only person to help me through this bizarre world of anatomy is, of course, Kat Irving, human remains conservator at Surgeons hall in Edinburgh. Kat, you are my guest co host on After Dark for the next few weeks.

[Kat Irving]

Hello. It's wonderful to be here. I feel like. I feel like I've gone through the looking glass.

[Antony Delaney]

Yes, now you're part of the machine. Listen. If you're listening or watching these episodes on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts, get cozy, turn the volume up on your speakers or on your earphones, whatever it is, because these are really cat's histories are immersive. We are going to be going to some very strange corners of the past. And this is why, when I knew that we were looking for guest co hosts while Maddie was off, Kat was top of my list. I was like, we need to have Kat in. Because what we were about to discuss and what we have been discussing with Kat through the previous episodes, you can go back and look at will give you a taste of what is to come. And this particular history is bizarre in the best way possible. Now, before we go into that particular anatomical site in the middle of the 19th century, I'm gonna bring us right up to date because I visited Kat in her office in Edinburgh. I've been to a lot of offices. This one is the most unique, I think I can confidently say that I have ever been to. And so fitting as well. It was like, of course this is. And I couldn't take a picture in there because of the nature of what's in there. But I remember taking a pict of you at the door going, wow, this is such a location that nobody really gets to see. So for the listeners, give us a description of what your office in Edinburgh looks like.

[Kat Irving]

Well, it's a vaulted basement.

[Antony Delaney]

It is.

[Kat Irving]

So, you know, lots and lots of Arches. If you're taller than me, you have to duck at a number of places. And this is where we keep our human remains that are not on display. And so there are shelves upon shelves which contain human remains. And then I have a little desk in the corner. I have two laboratories which are somewhat dated now. And there I do my work. It looks a bit like you might expect something in a Frankenstein lab, but that is not what I am doing down there.

[Antony Delaney]

No, no, I can confirm she is not sewing together pieces of random bodies, which is great for everybody involved. I remember at one point, because there's different little compartments to what is the sweep of your office. And at one point I remember thinking to myself, we were in the middle compartment, we had two chairs out and we were chatting away about history and about books and about all this kind of thing, just industry stuff. And watching over us in the background were, what, what is it? What is it? Eight skeletons or something that were just overviewing our conversation. I was like, this does not happen in. In the history head offices on a daily basis. It is an experience. But I'm very glad that I got that experience.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. And. And if I, you know, I. I do a lot of public talks and if I have to practice talk, I give it for the skeletons. So they're my first audience, actually. I do stop it.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah, I'm remembering them all now because they're all different heights and sizes and, you know, the plethora of humanity there. They are such a. They're such a ready audience. Like, it makes sense that you would do that. Actually. It's still a little bit crucifix, but. Yeah, I'm sure they are silent, but they're taking it all in as they would. Now, listen, we are going from your anatomical situation to Dr. Kahn's grand anatomical museum. We are, as I said, in the middle of the 19th century. We're going to go straight in and then we'll pull back a little bit and give some context. If you and I were walking down Oxford street, we came to number 315, we. And we go in through this door. What is a typical visit like to this particular anatomical museum?

[Kat Irving]

Well, there are lots of things that you can see there. You will see, you know, like if you come to surgeon's hall, you will see body parts that have been preserved in jars and fluids. You're also going to see those at Dr. Kahn's. He's got a number of those kind of jars showing human remains with lots and lots of different conditions. You're also going to see models, beautiful wax models, which will show the body at different stages of dissection, show some horrible diseases. You're also going to see things that you might not expect. So from 1857, he has what's called a heterodelph, and that's actually a living person.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, I didn't realize it was a living person.

[Kat Irving]

So there is a crossover with the kind of freak show that, you know, I know that you've talked about in the past in After Dark.

[Antony Delaney]

Let's linger on that for a second, because I had heard that there was a heterodelf, and we'll talk about what that means in just a second. But I didn't realize there was living people.

[Kat Irving]

That seems to be the only one, only living person that he has.

[Antony Delaney]

I looked this up, this particular. And there are drawings of this particular heterodelf that you can see online. And I was really interested in what the breakdown of the language was in terms of heterodelphin. And it basically means an opposite brother. An opposite man.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, it's effectively hetero. The same as in heterosexual. Yeah, you know, different. And then delf, sibling, brother, Greek words.

[Antony Delaney]

If you could describe what this. I did not realize this person was alive. If you could describe what the heterodelf was. So if we are seeing this person, this poor boy, actually, what would we. What condition was he. Was he living with?

[Kat Irving]

He has. It seems to be a form of conjoined twinism or supernumerary limbs. Again, we're not certain. So, you know, he has a young male body, and then coming out of just below his diaphragm is another lower torso and then another pair of limbs smaller than the, shall we say, the main lower body. So he has these extra legs.

[Antony Delaney]

And you may not know the answer to this because it might not survive in the archival material. Do we know if he had use of those extra limbs or was it an appendage that was not used?

[Kat Irving]

This is a really interesting question. We don't get so much of a description of that. But from similar conditions that I. I've read about, there is some use. So at surgeon's hall, we have an example of a supernumerary limb, a third leg, as it were, that was removed from a man in his 50s. And it's a really sad story. You know, effectively, his. His parents thought this was a punishment from God. So it was only after they died that he was able to get this. This leg removed. And he'd been kept hidden away so that people wouldn't see the shame. Till this point. But there's a very interesting report from the doctors who first exam. And as well as the extra leg, he also has an extra penis.

[Antony Delaney]

I knew you were going there. Sorry. Somehow I just knew it was gonna go there.

[Kat Irving]

And the doctors write that it will respond at the same time as the first one, but it doesn't produce. Whoa. Yeah.

[Antony Delaney]

Okay. That is something we have never heard at After Dark,

[Kat Irving]

but it's such a sad story. It is, you know, really, really want to just bring home that, you know, these are people.

[Antony Delaney]

People. Yeah.

[Kat Irving]

And that's. But, you know, through collections like ours, you get these insights into what people's lives must have been like. And it must have been so hard.

[Antony Delaney]

And here's the thing, actually, to take from that. In one sense, it's very easy to get caught up in the graphicness of the anatomy part of it, which, you know, you're anatomist, that's fine. But it's also that thing of there was a secret around this man's life, and he couldn't deal with it until his parents died. That's heartbreaking.

[Kat Irving]

It really, really is.

[Antony Delaney]

That it's hidden away.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Antony Delaney]

So that's the heterodelf that we have, or as it was termed at the time, that we have at this particular anatom museum, but we also have the Venus model. Now, this is intriguing. This was one of the stars of the show, Right. Not a real person, though, in this case.

[Kat Irving]

No, this is a wax model. And this was based on a style of wax model that was produced first in Italy in the 18th century. So the first model was a man called Clemente Susini. He works in Florence. And you can still see Clementi Susini's models. There are some in La Specola in Florence, in Vienna. There's even one of his anatomical Venuses in the Science Museum in London. So, you know, they're still about, but effectively what you have is a beautiful woman, and she's reclining. A lot of these models have jewels around the necks, sort of pearls or beads. They have very beautiful hair. Sometimes it's. It's braided over their shoulder, and they're. They're relaxing on a cushion and they laid back. Their head is reclined. Their lips are slightly parted. It looks almost orgasmic.

[Antony Delaney]

Sure, sure. Yeah.

[Kat Irving]

But then she has a wax panel on the front of her body that you can remove, and then you can look at her internal organs, and you can often take those internal organs out, you know, made of wax, right down to teeny, tiny wax. Fetus, which is, you know, there in her uterus, which there's absolutely no external sign of.

[Antony Delaney]

Right.

[Kat Irving]

So these are, they're beautiful. They're very idealized anatomy.

[Antony Delaney]

God, even the anatomy is idealized.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. You. This does not look like how you see the anatomy in a dissected view,

[Antony Delaney]

if you're actually opening something.

[Kat Irving]

So, you know, it's not anatomy as you see it in real life. It's a map to what you will see. But a very sexualized map.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah, I was gonna say one of the things that I don't think I fully appreciated with this is that actually there's a cover for the internals, that if you, if you approach this at first, there can be a top over the stomach, I'm guessing.

[Kat Irving]

And often, you know, if you see one of these models in a museum that will be laying to one side,

[Antony Delaney]

you'll see that it will be open.

[Kat Irving]

It will be open, it'll have been taken off because otherwise it's, you know, it's just a woman who looks like she's just had sex lying there on a table. If you have that covered over. The point is to see those wax

[Antony Delaney]

organs inside, those idealized wax organs.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely.

[Antony Delaney]

And what is in the back of my mind, and maybe I'm drawing false comparisons here, but it's probably just worth flagging it as you're talking about these wax figures of women, idealized women in these semi sexual poses that are open. It's the 19th century, I know this is the 1840s and 50s, but actually you can't help jump ahead a little bit to the ripper cases later on where you get this mixture of gore and violence and sex where women are concerned. It's just a very interesting. I know it's a generation apart, but there's something in that, I think about

[Kat Irving]

taking a woman apart and almost to that kind of essence of what's inside you.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. It's very disturbing actually, when you, when you see it in that case. Right. One of the questions I have then, as you are describing this and you're describing what, what is inside these doors and you know they're being advertised. Anybody can. Well, I'm assuming anybody can go, but what kind of audience is. Are, are you and I just rocking up off the street? Is it just medical professionals? What's the audience for this?

[Kat Irving]

Well, that's really interesting because, you know, certainly Dr. Kahn's isn't the first of these type of museums. You know, there was Rackstro's museum in the 18th century. That was there For a little while, that close. Then you actually get somebody who takes one of these anatomical Venuses to a pub in Soho in 1825. And effectively, in that pub in Soho, anyone can go and see. See her lying there. And it's really popular. But the newspaper reports, you know, again, because of this sort of sexualized nature, they're not so popular. So we get under the pretense of imparting anatomical knowledge. This filthy figure, the property of one Monsieur Estnault, is exhibited. So, you know, it's disapproving.

[Antony Delaney]

Is this the one in Soho?

[Kat Irving]

This is 1825 in Soho. And they go on to say it is a large, disgusting doll. So, you know, we're getting that kind of idea that this is not proper.

[Antony Delaney]

Yes.

[Kat Irving]

But people go and see it, and we still get further cases like this. So, you know, we get Signor Sarti in the 1840s, and some of these museums will not allow women in. You know, they're just for men. And then even amongst the men, some rooms, the ones which will show certain STDs, venereal diseases, are just for medical people.

[Antony Delaney]

Right. So there is a distinction between who can go where, gendered distinctions, intellectual, educational distinctions, depending on what all of these different organizations have and hold and what their collections are. One thing I want to ask about that pub in Soho in the 1820s, first. First of all, it's interesting that it sounds to me like it was a French person who owned the. It's a French surname. Right. So obviously in the 1820s in England, Frenchness is not Derraguer.

[Kat Irving]

So there are two things to disapprove of there.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then the other thing that strikes me is that, okay, it's in a pub, and it seems inappropriate that that kind of an exposing is happening there anyway. But it also says something about. So that's the gender side, but let's talk about the class side for a moment, because I wonder if to a certain extent the disapproval is. This isn't for everybody's eyes. This anatomical literacy should be reserved for certain people. You know, it's more complicated than that. But do you think there's an element of that in there as well?

[Kat Irving]

Oh, I definitely think there is. It's not right that certain people know about these things. You still see that today, that there are certain museums that hold anatomical collections, and you can only go and see them if you are in the medical profession. So, you know, there is that still. We do see that, obviously at surgeon's hall, we allow everyone in.

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[Antony Delaney]

Speaking of who's allowing who in and how far into this whole situation can go, Dr. Kahn, in this specific case, in his anatomical museum, he's in charge of this. Who is he?

[Kat Irving]

Well, he's a German doctor and we're putting Dr. In scarecoats there.

[Antony Delaney]

Right.

[Kat Irving]

There is no evidence that he ever got a medical degree. And that will become very, very important later on. And he seems to have exhibited certain of these kind of things in Germany, toured them around. And again, touring these kind of collections has been going on since the, you know, the very end of the 17th century, you know, with a man called Guillaume de Nou. But, you know, he comes to London and in 1751 he opens up his anatomical and pathological museum.

[Antony Delaney]

Right.

[Kat Irving]

And it's, it's really interesting because he seems to have a genuine desire to impart anatomical knowledge.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah. There seems to be two things going on here that there is. There is access to information. And as we will see, women are allowed into some of these places. As long as they're paying, of course.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. Some. Often the women would be. They would have certain days for the women. And there was actually a Madame Capstan's that was purely for women.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, okay.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. And on the days that women were allowed into these places, certain of the models would be covered up or hidden away.

[Antony Delaney]

So, you know, women are allowed some knowledge.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, yeah, some knowledge. Not the same kind of knowledge as men.

[Antony Delaney]

No. Heaven for femmes.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely not. That's not where we're going.

[Antony Delaney]

But if there's a question over his doctorhood, and we'll talk about those distinctions in a minute, probably what there isn't a distinction about is his business acumen. Right. That this is a man who is trying to. Even from the outset, even if he is trying to educate whatever, he's also trying to make money.

[Kat Irving]

He's definitely trying to make a living from this. You know, he's. He's got to get something back.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah. He's not, because, you know, if he wanted to be an anatomist in a medical school or in a private medical school, he could do that. Just head on up to Edinburgh. There's loads of people waiting there to to do that. But that's not what he's doing.

[Kat Irving]

That's not what he's doing. He has his museum, two shillings to get in.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Kat Irving]

It's not making enough money. So he drops the price to one shilling in the hope that that will get more people through the door.

[Antony Delaney]

Okay. So he's adapting his business model, depending on.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. And that's it. That you can see that kind of, let's say, the evolution of his business model.

[Antony Delaney]

Let's say that that's what it is. Right. One thing when producer Stu were talking to me about doing this episode, I was like, one question I will definitely have for Kat is I need to go through the formalities of all of these different names for the profession. And I think Khan brings up a good point at which for us to discuss that. So what you will hear often when you're Talking about early 19th cent century specifically is that we have physicians, we have surgeons, we have apothecaries, and we have then kind of cowboys on licensed practitioners, whatever the quack doctors. That's the word I was looking for. Now let's. Let's just walk people through this because it's very easy to get confused with all of these things, like what the distinction is, how formally qualified these people are, or not. Let's start with physicians specifically. If it is, let's say it's 1850, we're here, and I say I am a physician. What does that actually mean? Have I done anything to qualify as that?

[Kat Irving]

Very, very good question. Usually a physician is somebody who has been to university, a university educated man, and of course, they are all men at this point.

[Antony Delaney]

Yes, yes, yes, Yep.

[Kat Irving]

So it generally does indicate that there has been some kind of university education.

[Antony Delaney]

Okay.

[Kat Irving]

However, as with Dr. Khan, there isn't really anything for to stop you just saying you're a doctor, you know, there is no framework which really supports that. And then you have surgeons.

[Antony Delaney]

Right. There is a distinction between the physician and the surgeon.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. And Surgeons hall, we are the museum of the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh and we have been responsible for making sure who is a surgeon in Edinburgh since 1505.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, wow. So that's regulated so well.

[Kat Irving]

Well, they were making sure that unless you were a fellow of that guild, and it started off as a trade guild, so you had to be a member. Unless you were a member of that guild early on, you could not practice surgery in Edinburgh. So there was a bit of regulation there.

[Antony Delaney]

Can I just check here before we go on to any of the other categories? Barber surgeons Surgeons.

[Kat Irving]

So they start off as barber surgeons.

[Antony Delaney]

I see.

[Kat Irving]

And effectively that's because barbers were the people who had tools. They could do that cutting business earlier on. And even, I mean, certainly you see this in Edinburgh. Even when you have the incorporation of barbers and surgeons, there's still often a distinction between who's doing barberry and who was doing surgery. So, you know, while a lot of times you got people doing both, by the time we get into the 17th century, there does seem to be a distinction between who is cutting hair and trimming beards and who is cutting a leg off.

[Antony Delaney]

Thanks very much.

[Kat Irving]

Exactly. But the thing about surgery is that you didn't go to university to learn it. You learned it by apprenticeship. So you signed an indenture with a master that said, you know, how long you would be with him for what you would do. So, you know, there was a whole range of stipulations about, you know, not starting fights and not going with loose women and all these kind of things. There was a whole array of things, you, behaviors you had to follow while you were indentured to your master. And then you would be examined. Examined. And then you could practice surgery.

[Antony Delaney]

Right.

[Kat Irving]

So you don't have to have gone to university.

[Antony Delaney]

So in that sense, if we're talking about the distinction between the physician and the distinction between the surgeon, would you say that the physician is a little more gentlemanly?

[Kat Irving]

The physician is certainly more gentlemanly. There's a wonderful illustration from the 16th century that I like to use to illustrate this where you see the physician in a long robe. He's wearing glasses.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Kat Irving]

So again, indicating that book learning thing,

[Antony Delaney]

because we've all gone blind for that.

[Kat Irving]

Yes. He's just sort of, you know, there standing upright, not examining patients. He's just kind of standing there, whereas you have the surgeon sitting nearby in. He's wearing a short robe because, you know, it would be impractical to do these sort of things in a long robe. And he is sawing off a leg. And he's a much more practical person.

[Antony Delaney]

Sure.

[Kat Irving]

So this is the early distinction between physicians and surgeons. So that's, you know, we're talking sort of 16th century here.

[Antony Delaney]

Distinction.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, yeah. But 19th century, the surgeons are trying to, you know, make sure that, you know, that they're better regarded.

[Antony Delaney]

Yes.

[Kat Irving]

You know, so that kind of thing is, you know, they're trying to raise their class. And you can see this. Anyone that's been to surgeon's hall, we are in a very, very grand neoclassical building that is really trying to make A statement going, look, we're important, we're legit. Absolutely, we are legit. So, you know, that building is part of that. Trying to get that in. And, and in the, you know, beginning of the 19th century, this is when you're starting to get a lot more surgeons also going to university. It's not compulsory. Yeah, but they are doing that, you know, you are getting that kind of crossover. And we get a man called Thomas Keith in 1845. He will do a lot of good work on the surgery of ovariotomy, which is removing the ovaries, so gynecological surgery. But in 1845 he apprenticed to James Young Simpson, who you might have heard of as the man who discovered chloroform as an anesthetic. And Thomas Keith was said to be the last surgical apprentice in Edinburgh. So, you know, that's about this, that's about this time. So, you know, you're still not getting that kind of surgeons as qualified medical men until, you know, we're getting that transition around this point.

[Antony Delaney]

And isn't it interesting that like two questions are now binging in my head. Isn't it interesting that now the surgeon has, has gone above the physician?

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. But, you know, consultant surgeon will usually be.

[Antony Delaney]

Mr. That was going to be my next question.

[Kat Irving]

Is that because of this, that's, that's harking back to, you know, these days when you weren't qualified doctor.

[Antony Delaney]

I love like that. Right, okay. So we have our physicians and we have our surgeons and then the mixture of the two of them as we get on into the 19th century or the line becomes a little bit more blurred in my head. An apothecary is always a little bit more like a modern day pharmacist.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Antony Delaney]

Correct or incorrect?

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. But you also get a bit more of a blurring because you have surgeon apothecaries.

[Liberty Mutual Friend/Commentator]

Oh, right.

[Kat Irving]

Who are doing, you know, a bit of surgery, a bit of prescribing medicine,

[Antony Delaney]

say in a village or something.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely.

[Antony Delaney]

You have to be a bit of everything.

[Kat Irving]

And in some ways you can maybe think about them as like the way we think of a gp, something you would go for if anything was wrong. And again, you've got to remember for a lot of times, time, you know, physicians, you would have to pay. So they would come to people's houses and they would, you know, they would visit people home, wealthy people at home, you know, people who had money and then they might, out of charity, goodwill, do things in hospitals where they, you know, they would see the poorer members of, of society.

[Antony Delaney]

Do you know in Ireland you still have to pay for a doctor? So like if you go and you have a sit down thing, it's like €70 for every.

[Kat Irving]

Oh, wow.

[Antony Delaney]

Thing you have. Yeah. And like, if so I know this is years ago, but when my granddad was dying, a doctor would come to the house and you would have to. Older people get it for free, but there is still this kind of expectation that you'd slip them €50 or something if they've come to the house. So that's still very much there. I will say this, if my GP ever tries to cut my leg off, they'll be hearing from me. But that's neither here nor there. Okay, so physicians, surgeons, apothecaries, unlicensed practitioners, quack doctors.

[Kat Irving]

Quack doctors.

[Antony Delaney]

This is where Khan's starting to come into it and this is his world.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. So you've got to imagine that you've got pay for a physician. You know, you would go and get something a bit cheaper. And of course mistrust, you know, it's not quite this sort of seen as being the same kind of profession as we would see it nowadays. You might not get the treatment that you want. So there were a whole range of medicines that you might be able to buy effectively. Snake oil salesmen.

[Antony Delaney]

Sure.

[Kat Irving]

That, you know, people that would be selling things that would, would sort you out or allegedly sort you out.

[Antony Delaney]

Sounds very wellness industry nowadays. Allegedly.

[Kat Irving]

I feel there is a lot of crossover. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, take this vitamin and all your problems will be go heights.

[Antony Delaney]

Allegedly. I need to stop naming brands.

[Kat Irving]

Yes, yeah. So exactly that kind of thing. And these people were, you know, they would have advertisements and places, you know, selling you things, especially if it was certain kind of conditions that you might not want to go and see a doctor about, that there might be a little bit of stigma, you know, and so that there might be adverts and toilets about things that you might be able to get.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, really? So we're talking about venereal disease here?

[Kat Irving]

We are.

[Antony Delaney]

Okay, let's talk about that because. Let's talk about venereal disease because to a certain extent Khan is capitalizing on this idea of taboo that surrounds venereal disease or STDs or STIs as we might call them today. And it is, as you say, there's, there's this, there's this idea that you're going to find out about treatments in toilets, in public toilets or there, there may be discreet places that you come across this information. But Here we are at 315 Oxford Street. Pretty public, pretty out there. Okay. It's behind a closed door. But he is putting on display the impact of venereal disease on the human body. And he. I guess you can tie that up as being educational, and to a large extent, it might very well be. But also he's saying, and give me my shilling now before you can see it. So how does that part of the display work in terms. Is that the real draw for people, or are people absolutely mortified by it?

[Kat Irving]

Well, well, there seems to be a lot going on. You know, he's definitely trying to educate people, and these things are not talked about very much. So people are fascinated. You know, there's several layers of the fascination. You know, first of all, the fact that we don't really know what the inside of our bodies look like.

[Antony Delaney]

We were talking about this on the walk. We were walking over together, and you said something about, you will never see the. Unless something awful goes wrong.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, it's a bad day if you're actually seeing the inside of your own body. So, you know, the fact that. But it's so important to you, you know, the fact that things that are going on inside me are the reasons why I'm waving my hands around like this and the words are coming out my mouth. You know, the thought processes, you know, the. The complex hormonal soup and the way that. That interacts with everything. This makes you who you are, but

[Antony Delaney]

you'll never know it.

[Kat Irving]

You have this black space inside of you filled with these things that you. You probably never see and don't understand. And so you can understand why people are fascinated by. And then, you know that you have these things that go wrong that people aren't talking about. And maybe you're coming to a place like this and you get to see it. You know, you're getting to learn about these things that get hinted at but aren't really spoken about out in the open.

[Antony Delaney]

One of those things, which I've never come across this before is spermatorrhea. Spermatorrhea. Involuntary or excessive discharge of semen. The. Now, don't clip that and use that in any way for my showreel or any kind of thing, but that is. It's interesting, right? Because yes, we can laugh about our bodily functions. We all, you know, whatever, but at the same time. Well, first of all, that's not a condition, right? That's something that was kind of just made up in the 19th century.

[Kat Irving]

I mean, there was a lot of. They also have somebody There's a model of the head and face of somebody who practiced oninus.

[Antony Delaney]

What the hell's that?

[Kat Irving]

Masturbation. Oh, you know, so that's the other thing that there is a moralistic twist with all of this. You know, the idea that, you know, again, the Victorians, you know, we're not talking about this, but absolutely do not do it.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah. Oh, wait, I think I've seen this before. There's the figure of a man and there's a head and it's normal. And then there's another head of the same man, but now his tongue is protruding and he's got some swelling maybe around his eyes or something.

[Kat Irving]

Is that this is the kind of thing that we're talking about, this idea of. It's just like, you do that, see what's going to happen to you, Right? Yeah. So you definitely are getting this kind of moralistic element to all of this.

[Antony Delaney]

So how is the establishment dealing with these kind of places, or Khan's place in specific? Because we know that there's an interaction action with the Lancet, right?

[Kat Irving]

Oh, absolutely.

[Antony Delaney]

We all know what the Lancet is. But for those who may. Let me, just in case. We don't all know what the Lancet is. The Lancet is a medical journal still around today.

[Kat Irving]

Still around today.

[Antony Delaney]

And it is. It is the benchmark, right?

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. I mean, it was founded in 1823 by a man called Thomas Wakely. And his idea was that you have something that's readable, that you can present medical information from so people can educate themselves. And he thought that by education you might avoid some of those quack doctors and their snake oil. He starts off with a brief, which is effectively what the Lancet is all about. And they're very, very positive. So he opens in 1851 and they say, we've paid a visit and we're much gratified with the collection of anatomical and surgical curiosities. Amongst the most interesting that deserves approbation is the anatomical Venus, which takes to pieces for the purpose of exposing the general anatomy and the relationships of the various visceral. Altogether, it is a splendid collection and a great deal of general information is to be obtained by visiting it. So this is really, really.

[Antony Delaney]

That's a five star review.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. You'd want this in TripAdvisor, wouldn't you? Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Antony Delaney]

Put that in your posters.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Antony Delaney]

So what goes wrong, then?

[Kat Irving]

Well, you know, we talked before about Khan and his business model.

[Antony Delaney]

Yes.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. He's not making the kind of money that he wants.

[Antony Delaney]

Right.

[Kat Irving]

And he takes the collection on tour and. Yeah. So it goes to various places in the provinces. Provinces. I'm talking about places like Manchester and Sheffield, what they think of as the provinces. And so people are seeing it. And then he returns to London. He has a couple of different locations in London, obviously, that, you know, that first one. Bit too expensive.

[Antony Delaney]

Sure. You know, can imagine prime real estate.

[Kat Irving]

Exactly. And so he's still not making what he wants. And he sells some models to a company who are known. Known as Perry and Company.

[Antony Delaney]

Okay.

[Kat Irving]

And they make it out that it's a family business. Their name is Jordan, not Perry.

[Antony Delaney]

So much edge on that.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. Effectively what they're doing is they are selling those kind of quack remedies for STDs that, you know, that we were talking about earlier. And so they think that if they have some of these models that they can use that for teaching people.

[Antony Delaney]

It legitimizes what they're selling. Yeah.

[Kat Irving]

And so Khan gets a bit of money that way. Way. And then he effectively goes into partnership with them.

[Antony Delaney]

Right.

[Kat Irving]

He's going into partnership with them. He's using his models so that he can educate people about venereal diseases. He's giving lectures. And then you exit through the gift shop and you can buy some of Perry and Co's remedies. So he's going from this fairly educational basis. And we talked about the heterodel earlier. The heterodelph only is born in 1857. But one of the things Kahn does is use the hetredelf, use this young boy to talk about the fact that maternal impressionism, the idea that things that you see while you're pregnant cause these kind of birth defects.

[Antony Delaney]

Joseph Merrick.

[Kat Irving]

Joseph Merrick. I mean, Joseph Merrick is born, what, five years later. And they were absolutely convinced that this was down to things that his mother had seen while she was pregnant.

[Antony Delaney]

She had seen an elephant crush him, man. Therefore. Yeah.

[Kat Irving]

But in 1857, Kahn is using the heterodel to say, that's bollocks.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, yeah, Khan is doing that.

[Kat Irving]

Kahn is doing that. One of the things he's doing is talking about embryology and things like that. He's showing that this is not true.

[Antony Delaney]

So there really is this tension and dichotomy between Marty's doom, because he is educating, he is right in some ways, but then he's exploitative in other ways.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. And this is where the Lancet kind of. And he goes, we're not having that.

[Antony Delaney]

I see.

[Kat Irving]

You know, they're really. By 1857, in his partnership with Perry and Company, they come along and they refer to it as that den of obscenity.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, wow. So now we've gone from five star view to a one star review.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. This is very, very, very different language. They say, disgusting and immoral, depraving the mind of the ignorant and unwary.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, dear.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, and I would just like to quickly do a shout out here to

[Antony Delaney]

the ignorant and unwary.

[Kat Irving]

Not to the ignorant, unwary. To our library and archive assistant, Robin Fixture Patterson, who. Who basically was the person who went and scanned all these issues of the Lancet for me when I was researching

[Antony Delaney]

these a couple of years ago.

[Kat Irving]

So he did an absolute. I mean, he's amazing at just magically making articles appear anyway. But he did physically go through old 19th century issues of the Lancet for me getting these out. So. Thanks, Robin.

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[Kat Irving]

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[Kat Irving]

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[Antony Delaney]

That is. It's. It's interesting to see that the switch, right, that they're going from five star view to one star starview. Because what it does is it shows, as so many people were in many ways, that Khan is trying to eke out a living in a city or in a country as he's up and down the country touring this. That is. It's difficult, right? It is. You are having to hustle. You're having to have side hustles. You're having to be a million things. We can all identify with those kind of things today, but it is him trying to find a way to survive. And, yes, I think when I was looking at some of these details, there is definitely a drive to educate. And I also was kind of thinking, you know, he's a. Letting women in to some of the spaces, Some of the spaces that other people are. Absolutely not. Yes, they have to pay. But there is access there, so there's something there, too. But by the time it comes to the. The kind of end of this particular museum, it does start to smell of exploitation and desperation, actually, to a certain extent. So what happens in the end? So. So we know it gets closed. Well, it. It kind of just passes over to Perry and Company, right?

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. So. So we get a thing. You know, we talked before about the difference in medical men. In 1858, we get a medical act which says that in order to be a doctor, you have to be registered.

[Antony Delaney]

I see Khan's not doing the admin.

[Kat Irving]

Khan can't do that. And he applies. And they kind of go, yeah, and they go, we've got no evidence that you. You practiced. And so he ends up leaving the country and we kind of lose sight of Khan and Perry and Kor take over the business. And you can imagine at this point,

[Antony Delaney]

we're into essentially freak show at this point, as they would have said.

[Kat Irving]

Yes, absolutely. But then another thing happens. So 1858, we get the Medical act the year before that. So 1857, the same year that the Lancet are referring to this as a den of obscenity, we get the Obscene Publications Act.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah. So now what are we able to describe, to advertise these things? Is that gonna impact how this business is, information about the business is disseminated?

[Kat Irving]

Well, it's not only that, because the Obscene Publication Act, I mean, you say it, it makes me think of, like, people who are distributing porn. You know, it sounds like it's to do with pornography, but in the Victorian period, in 1858, this is not 1857, this is not just about porn. It's also about things that promote conduct inconsistent with public morals, which is a very different thing.

[Antony Delaney]

Very Victorian thing.

[Kat Irving]

Very Victorian thing. So you've got to imagine that they're able to basically frame it as if. If you go along to Kahn's Medical Museum, and it still is called Khan's.

[Antony Delaney]

Right.

[Kat Irving]

Perry and co are not changing the name. They're still having Dr. Khan, you know, giving it that air of legitimacy. If you're going along there. And effectively, it's like saying, well, if You've got an S.T.D. it's all right. This is what you can do about it. That's almost promoting the kind of behavior which is likely to get you a venereal disease in the Victorian imagination. And that. That, according to the Obscene Publications act, was not acceptable.

[Antony Delaney]

It's a. No, no.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, yeah. And so you also get things like. There's one point when the Lancet says, maybe this Society for the Suppression of Vice should go and look at Dr. Kahn's. Yeah, exactly. And so in 1873, because of this, and you know, this has taken a

[Antony Delaney]

while, I was going to say, that's almost like a generation later. 1873.

[Kat Irving]

1873, some of these models are confiscated and. And prosecution takes place. And we get Mr. Collette, who is the head of the Society for the Suppression of Vice, flagrantly in contradiction to this act, he says, can I have the pleasure of smashing these models myself? And so this happens in court.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh, he does it in court.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely. Drama. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, these are anatomical models. And I mean, I know you follow me on Instagram. You know how much I love a good anatomical model. You do. I have spent a lot of my time on holiday going to look at these very kind of models. The Times noted how elaborate and how expensive these models would be at the time.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Kat Irving]

And they're getting smashed. That just. It just breaks my little heart.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. It breaks your gothic little heart.

[Kat Irving]

It does, it does.

[Antony Delaney]

It is. It's such a fascinating snapshot. And this is why I just. This is not somebody I'd known an awful lot about. And when I was researching for him, when I knew we were doing this episode, I googled him, as you generally would, just to see what's out there. And the answer is not very much at all.

[Kat Irving]

Absolutely.

[Antony Delaney]

It's not something that is just slap bang in the middle of the Internet. And, you know, I think I went on YouTube to see if there's anything there, just to see what's in the public sphere. There's not very much about him and this particular museum.

[Kat Irving]

No, we get some snapshots through publications. You know, there is a publication, you can find it digitally at the welcome Collection, about the heterodelph. And you know what he said about that. And you get this kind of progression through the Lancet, but. But it's just fleeting.

[Antony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. It gives this idea that, you know, this idea that he's coming from Germany, traveling up and down the country, then leaves and I think comes back at some point. But that transitory thing has also meant that he's spread out, archival and slightly lost. I'm sure there's probably more sitting in archives somewhere across the world. But it's such an interesting snapshot of a moment in time and this kind of moralizing around one's body, even though the internal part of one's body and how that's being policed and who gets to see it and how women don't get to see it. But nonetheless it's women's anatomy that's being bared in this Venus model which is in pubs or in this particular place. Like it's, it's, it's exploitative, but it also seems to be educational. But at the same time, the people who are saying that it's exploitative are also exploiting it in their own way for other ends. It's, it's just so very Victorian and it's such a great little, little story. So I'm so glad that you've brought us particular one today, Kat. What a. What? I told you. I told you. This is going to be like completely immersive and we're going down dark alleys of the 19th century as we will continue to do. Not just the 19th century. If you've enjoyed this episode, and I know I have, this is why we thought up of After Dark. It's just such a. Oh, we love all this stuff. Then leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know we are also on YouTube so you can go and watch us have this conversation there if you're not already on our YouTube channel. You can find me at Antony Delaney History if you'd like to follow me on social media. Cat. Where can they find you at?

[Kat Irving]

Anatomical cat.

[Antony Delaney]

I see what you did there. Bring it all to all to the people. Guys, until next time, go back and listen to Kat's older episodes. What we have about bougie candles. I remember that.

[Kat Irving]

That was Zosries. That was the Paris Catacombs.

[Antony Delaney]

Paris Catacombs. And there's other episodes.

[Kat Irving]

No, that's it. That's the only one I've done.

[Antony Delaney]

We've only had you on once.

[Kat Irving]

Yes.

[Carvana User]

No.

[Kat Irving]

Yes. We. We've recorded about Burke and hair and done filming.

[Antony Delaney]

But we did a documentary.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Antony Delaney]

Oh yeah, go and watch that. That's good. Yeah, yeah. If I say so myself. Anyway, that's enough from us. Until next time. Happy listening.

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[Antony Delaney]

Apro vecha los ahoros de Memorial Day in los y compra los vasicos parelo gar pormenos ahoro centa dolores en la parria que madores char broil performance series.