The Medieval Murder of Thomas Becket

Summary

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Podcast Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode Title: The Medieval Murder of Thomas Becket
Date: March 5, 2026
Hosts: Anthony Delaney (History Hit), Dr. Eleanor Janega (guest co-host; medieval historian)
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Overview of the Episode

This episode dives into the notorious 1170 murder of Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury, by four knights who believed they were acting on King Henry II's wishes. Hosts Anthony Delaney and guest historian Dr. Eleanor Janega dissect the tangled political, religious, and personal dynamics that led to the assassination—a defining moment in medieval English history that set the tone for the centuries-long struggle between church and crown. The discussion brings both dark humor and sharp analysis to a story of friendship gone wrong, political ambitions, martyrdom, and mythmaking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Medieval Power Struggles

• Opening context: The tension between King Henry II (ruler of the Angevin Empire, at England’s peak power) and Thomas Becket (his former friend and ally, now a staunch defender of church independence).

  “Who truly ruled medieval England? Crown or church?” – Anthony Delaney (02:22)

• Investiture controversy: Medieval kings historically chose bishops and archbishops, leveraging church offices as political tools.

  “The church hates this one weird trick... finally, in the 12th century, the church has a little bit of power.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (11:28)

• Church ascendency: By the 12th century, reforms from Rome tightened church control, causing friction with monarchs used to dominating appointments and revenues.

  “They've done it... it took 500 years, but they did it.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (12:36)

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The Rise and Rift: Henry II and Thomas Becket

• Backgrounds:
  • Henry II: Ambitious, effective, married Eleanor of Aquitaine, ruling vast territories in both England and France.
  • Thomas Becket: Son of London merchants, rose via royal favor, known for carousing with Henry before his “conversion.”

    "Thomas comes from relatively humble origins... London wide boy... family of merchants… but usually archbishops are drawn from royalty... They were party boys." – Dr. Eleanor Janega (19:00)

• Dramatic transformation:
  • Upon becoming Archbishop, Becket took his spiritual role seriously, defending church autonomy—even when it meant opposing his old friend, Henry.
  • The hosts riff humorously about potential casting for Henry and Thomas—Jacob Elordi and Jack Lowden, respectively (20:33), emphasizing their different personalities.
  • Becket's about-face was both personal and political, possibly motivated by genuine faith or the heady seduction of ecclesiastical power:

    “He wakes up one day and decides to be a nerd… The minute he becomes archbishop, he’s like, actually, can I just surprise everyone? I love the church.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (29:09)

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Church vs. Crown: The Breaking Point

• The Constitutions of Clarendon: Henry’s legal move in 1164 to limit Church power; Becket’s refusal to endorse it was the “last straw.”

  “Henry is expecting Thomas to be like, so true bestie… and Thomas is like, no, that is not how this works.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (31:10)

• Exile: Becket flees to France, seeking papal support and spending six years among radical reform monasteries, further distancing himself from the English crown.

  “He runs. He is out of the country for six years... doing a big tour… ends up at Clooney.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (35:17-35:47)

• Return and Martyrdom: In 1170, with Henry in Normandy, Becket returns to Canterbury. Tension boils over as Henry (possibly in a fit of frustration) utters the famous, possibly apocryphal line:

  "Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?" – Henry II (legend, 48:27)

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Murder in the Cathedral: The Assassination of Becket

[49:00–53:33]

• Four knights, believing they are fulfilling Henry’s unspoken wish, travel to Canterbury on December 29, 1170 (the fourth day of Christmas) and kill Becket in the cathedral, breaking all social and religious norms.

  “They stab him up... most importantly, end up cutting the top off his head, like a little hat…there’s blood everywhere.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (52:03)

• Becket refuses sanctuary or to flee, perhaps anticipating martyrdom:

  “He is refusing to leave. And the knights just… lose their little minds… and most importantly end up cutting the top off his head…” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (52:03)

• His ascetic undergarments (hair shirt) are found beneath his rich robes, reinforcing his piety and suitability for sainthood.

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The Aftermath: Sainthood, Propaganda, and Legacy

[53:14–01:00:00]

• Immediate canonization: Becket is declared a saint within three years—a formal process even as the Church tightened standards.

  “This is just like... 100%, we’ve got a saint on our hands. There is nothing you can do at this point in time.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (53:21)

• Miracles and relics: Reports of miracles at Becket’s tomb, veneration of relics (including people drinking diluted blood), and pilgrimages pour into Canterbury, making England a spiritual destination.

  “People are kissing the skull cap… you could go lay under the body… be in proximity to saintliness.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (56:17-56:47)

• Henry’s pivot: The king professes contrition, promotes the cult, and leverages the influx of pilgrims for political and economic gain.

  "Henry sees an opportunity… he rebuilds the castle at Dover in some style… puts England on the map.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (58:46-59:48)

• Permanent impact: The murder ultimately strengthened the authority of the Church in England and served as a lasting caution to monarchs about challenging ecclesiastical power.

  “It basically ossifies the position of the Church as more powerful… [Henry] has to back down from everything…” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (60:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Becket’s fate:

  “Thomas Becket really helps put England on the map for people—it helps to make England a destination for people who want to go on pilgrimage.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (09:52)

• On medieval sainthood:

  “It is weird and difficult to get martyred in the 12th century because we’ve mostly Christianized most of Europe by this point… But it’s still something Christians aim for because, like, that’s a hot ticket.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (38:10)

• On political calculation:

  “Henry is actually quite smart. He is power-focused. He knows strategically what he has to do... But... it ruins his whole plan.” – Anthony Delaney (54:47)

• On legacy:

  “This murder sets the roadmap for what’s to come… It really gives the Church a very powerful position in the end from which it is impossible to back down.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (60:15)

• On the lesson of Becket’s murder:

  “Say what you will, it doesn’t matter how annoying an archbishop is, you probably shouldn’t murder them in their cathedral.” – Dr. Eleanor Janega (61:25)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 02:22 – Dramatic introduction to the Becket-Henry conflict
• 06:47 – Eleanor’s fascination with the macabre side of history
• 11:01 – Explanation of the investiture controversy
• 19:00 – Becket’s background and friendship with Henry
• 29:09 – Becket’s transformation and rift with Henry
• 31:10 – The Constitutions of Clarendon and the breaking point
• 35:17 – Becket’s six-year exile
• 37:01 – Becket’s radicalization among reform monasteries
• 49:00–53:33 – The assassination: build-up, execution, and immediate aftermath
• 53:14–56:47 – Sainthood, relics, cult of Becket
• 58:46–59:48 – Pilgrimage economy and England's new religious status
• 60:15 – The event’s enduring impact on church-state relations

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Tone and Style

Throughout the episode, Anthony and Eleanor mix scholarly context with irreverent banter and dark humor, staying true to the podcast’s “gossipy” tone. The conversation is accessible without sacrificing nuance, often including pop-cultural analogies (e.g., casting modern actors as historical figures) and wry asides on medieval life, power, and death.

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Takeaways

• The Becket murder was not just a personal tragedy but a seismic political event that shaped the balance between monarchy and church in medieval England.
• The affair made Becket one of the few “modern” Christian martyrs and turned Canterbury into a European pilgrimage center.
• Ironically, the murder ultimately benefitted the Church, giving it lasting leverage over kings, and forcing even savvy rulers like Henry II into public penitence and reconciliation.

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For more deep dives into history’s shadowy corners, listen to After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal every Monday and Thursday.

Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

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[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

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[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

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[Anthony Delaney]

Ronnie, summon the strongest. A fire snaps in the hearth. The hall is loud with Christmas feasting. But the mood turns. In Normandy, before a court of armed retainers and watchful bishops, Henry II is pacing. Once he and Thomas Becket hunted together, governed together, trusted each other absolutely. Now the King and the Archbishop of Canterbury stand on Opposite sides of a question that cuts to the bone of medieval Europe. Who truly ruled medieval England? Crown or church? Becket has excommunicated royal allies. He has defied the crown. And Henry's anger spills over. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? His cry echoes off the thick stone walls. And four knights hear more than frustration. They hear a call to action. The most notorious murder of the Middle Ages took place on the evening of December 29, 1174 Knights burst into a cathedral. Within minutes, the archbishop, the most senior spiritual leader in the country, lay dead, his skull split open before the altar. This was not a Viking raid nor a foreign invasion. This was a political murder. Inside the heart of Christianity in England and at the center of it all stands a king, Henry II and the man he once called a friend, Thomas Beckett. How did all of this come to pass? Today we're joined by the one and only Dr. Eleanor Jaaniga to tell the story of the most infamous assassination in medieval history. Welcome to After Dark and the history of Thomas Becket. Well, hello there and welcome to After Dark. I am Anthony.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And I am Eleanor.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now Eleanor, as you might have guessed, is not Maddie. Because if you've been listening to us for quite a while, you'll know that Maddie has had a brilliant little arrival in her life and we are so excited for her. She will of course be back. But until then, I am going to be joined by a bevy historical heroes, the first of which who could be better than Eleanor, who is going to guide us through some of medieval history's most incredible, thrilling and dark histories. Today's episode is one that we've wanted to do for ages on After Dark actually, and it is the murder of Thomas becket. Because in 1170, England's most powerful king and his former best friend collided in a battle over power, loyalty and the limits of authority. Thomas Becket, once a wealthy worldly royal chancellor and the trusted right hand man of Henry ii, reinvented himself as Archbishop of Canterbury and a fierce defender of church independence. But following years of tension over who controlled the clergy, this pushed their relationship past breaking point. And we have four knights that are turning up to Canterbury Cathedral and everything after that changes. This episode traces how a political argument became a killing at the altar and why that night echoed across medieval Europe. Okay, that's enough of the actual work. Eleanor, the co host.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Hi Anthony.

[Anthony Delaney]

This is so exciting. I was like, let's just do the formal bit. We'll get that out of the way and then we can do the Fun bit.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yay. Let's gossip about dead people.

[Anthony Delaney]

Let's gossip about living people, too, but just not on air anyway. So it is great to have you on Afterdrug because you've been here a million times. The listeners, the viewers on YouTube adore you, and why wouldn't they? But. But you've explained this before. But for anybody who maybe has come to After Dark in the last few months, you have a particular draw to the dark side of history, too, right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

That's right. There is just something wrong with me.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're in the right place, then.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Like, listen, I was raised spooky, you know, I didn't. I didn't really have any. Any way of getting out of it. You know, I've got this specific thing where my parents are both, like, the children of immigrants. We're from spooky backgrounds on both sides. So I was raised with, like, a lot of ghost stories, a lot of things of that nature, and I've kind of never got away from it, so it's one of my research interests and specialties as well, you know. So within medieval history, I do a lot of work on apocalypticism, and I'm currently writing a book about historical ghosts. So, basically, if you leave me alone for too long, I will try to find a monster.

[Anthony Delaney]

If you leave me alone for too long, I will haunt people.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It's true. That's true. Like, I can't wait to die because, like, coming for all your asses.

[Anthony Delaney]

I am so not afraid to die. And I wonder if that's something got to do with that. Cause I know part of your heritage is Irish as well. We've talked about this in the podcast before. We literally come from the same field.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It's fine.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's so weird we did not know each other prior to history.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Hip.

[Anthony Delaney]

But part of your family and all of my 100% DNA of my family is from essentially the same field. Michael Kenny. It's crazy. Okay, Thomas Beckett. We're here. Yeah, we're not queer, but that's fine. We can forgive him that. Listen, so why was it that you wanted to start with this particular history?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Well, I think this is a really interesting one, because Thomas Becket, I think, is close to a medieval household name.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Like, this is one that really comes up in people's imaginations. And fundamentally, it is a really brutal murder. Right. But it combines everything that I really love. Propaganda. Again, gossip, you know, And. And it really does kind of show you the heart of how medieval people think and what that can mean if things go Too far. Now, granted, this is essentially a slap fight that turns into a real fight between incredibly wealthy people. Right. This is the province of the wealthy and powerful, most medieval people. They're down the field, right?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

They're with the rest of our ancestors. Right. Like, that's what's happening right now. But this is the sort of thing that will eventually culturally trickle down to them, and it has a great deal of meaning. What happens to Thomas Becket is absolutely awful, but it also ends up generating really good publicity for the church in England. He becomes basically a superstar saint. People start coming to England from other parts of the continent, and prior to this, they simply would not do that. It's difficult for us to understand now, but England is a real backwater in the medieval period. It is not particularly important. It's the sort of place where French people can just come take over whenever they want because it's just up for grabs. It's not like the Holy Roman Empire. It's not like France. It's not like all of these, like, big ticket places on the continent. It is a weird little island where they're doing weird little things. Right. But Thomas Becket really helps put it on the map for people. It helps to make England a destination for people who want to go on pilgrimage.

[Anthony Delaney]

And actually, I think people still probably do a version of that pilgrimage today. Right. They will come to his tomb, and they. That's a name. Or Thomas Beckett or Thomas Abekett. I remember when we were doing our undergrad, it was always Thomas Abeket.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Oh, I love it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, it was very dramatic for some random reason, but it was one of the. He's one of the names, as you say, that still pushes through. Right. Cause there's a shitload of medieval saints that you would forget about. And they're, you know, they're. They're great stories, and they're great, but this is one that really pushes through. And I love that you've given us an idea there about, like, what England was like. Right. So there's a kind of medieval backwater, but actually, in some ways, it's. When it's at its best, because it's hodgepodge.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It's.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's unruly to a certain extent. And this history feeds directly into that. Because what is the relationship at the outset of this, before we get to the murder between the Church in England. Not the Church of England, but the Church in England, and the monarch who is. We'll talk about Henry in a minute. But, like, what is that relationship like at this particular point.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Okay? So here we are, we are in the 12th century, bordering on the 13th century, right at the end there. Okay. And at this point in time, the Church is undergoing a really big push for renewal. And one of the things that is happening is what we now call the investiture controversy or the investiture contest. Oh, and this is a specific thing where previous. Obviously up to this point, kings usually choose who their bishops and archbishops are.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. Kings usually choose who their bishops and archbishops are. Okay, fine, I'm with you.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. And so you will say, oh, look, this very important office has opened up for somebody within the church. And you know, you put your cousin in there, you put like someone that you're good friends with in there because you know that they're going to agree with you on things. The Church hates this. Right? The church hates this one weird trick. But the thing about this is, finally, in the 12th century, the church has a little bit of power. This is going to surprise people because I think that there is a tendency to think about the Church in the medieval period as this all powerful institution that is really breathing down everybody's necks. That is true. From the 12th century.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

We gotta understand, right, look, the medieval period starts in 476.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a long old time, really.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. And the entire time the Bishop of Rome has been going, guys, I am so important. Like, wow, everybody look at the Bishop of Rome.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm gonna try and make this a thing.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And by the 12th century, it's finally happened. You know, they've done.

[Anthony Delaney]

It has worked.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

You know, it took 500 years, but they did it. Right. And so they kind of celebrate by trying to crack down, make these legal justifications for why does. They're in power. And one of the things that they want to do is they want to put archbishops especially, but certainly bishops in. That isn't the way England thinks things should be done. Now, granted, no king thinks. Yeah, yeah, listen, it's not popular. You know, there are. There's all sorts of things going on in France at the time. Like King Louis is constantly beefing with the Pope about this. They're like, who. Who is going to be a bishop? And when people are getting threatened with excommunication. But England is like, well, here we do things differently, right.

[Anthony Delaney]

And we're far enough away that we kind of can.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

You can get away with it because what are you gonna do? Get in a boat, come up here? You're not gonna do that? You know, like. So it does mean that they get away with a little bit more. And that is certainly true in terms of the appointment of Thomas Beckett in the first place. But I guess this is a good place for me to ask you a question.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, go on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

What do you know about our boy?

[Anthony Delaney]

So, again, it is. It is. So, yeah, this is. This is good, actually, because we will come to Henry. But what do I know about Thomas? To begin with? I. He is a saint. I know that he is. Spoiler alert. Killed brutally by the end of this particular story. I mean, oh, he's gonna die. We're going there. I know that there are knights involved in that. I know that it happens. Oh, I think that it happens in Canterbury Cathedral. Right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It does. That is correct.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Obviously, I know it's medieval. I don't really know why it happened. I don't really know what. But I do. I seem to vaguely remember that his relationship with Henry. The king. Henry ii.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Right, Henry ii. Got it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is at the heart of this.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yes, absolutely.

[Anthony Delaney]

So who is he? Okay, so apart from the king, obviously.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Henry II would argue, and do argue, one of our best kings, actually. Okay. Like this whole nonsense aside, like, he does pretty well. He is the one who will marry your friend and mine, Eleanor of Aquitaine. Friend of the podcast. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, we've had her on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

You know, he is also ruling England at a time when it is at the height of its powers. So especially after his marriage to Eleanor, he is co ruling what we now refer to as the Angevin empire. So these guys are the Angevins. That's their deal. And so they rule England, obviously.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now, can I just say, just to stop you there, sounds like a pizza topping an Angevin. I'm just thinking of anchovy, maybe. I love. Also, can I just say that I'm here listening to a medieval expert, and you are sharing these wealths of information, and I'm going. Do you know what that reminds me of, Eleanor? A pizza. And this is my contribution on this podcast. Jesus Weft. My. My ancestors.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Listen, but you're so real for that. He's just.

[Anthony Delaney]

Anyway, go on. Sorry, the anchovies. No, the Angevins.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Anjevans. The Angevins.

[Anthony Delaney]

She's learning.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Listen, she can be taught. Yeah. The important thing is here they've got England, but they've also got. You will remember, Normandy. That's where. That's where the kings and queens of England come from. All of these people are only and exclusively speaking French. We need to be clear on that.

[Anthony Delaney]

I think that's really good to remind us of that, actually. And that's how French becomes the courtly language for so long.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. So it's like this man cannot speak English. He's like, that's. He's not about that life. Right. But he's also got these huge parts of land down in southern France by dint of marrying Eleanor. So he controls Aquitaine as well. I mean, Eleanor does it, but, like, listen, don't tell him that.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So, like, they control more of France than the French king does, which is very funny. And they have bits of whales. You know, they're kind of like constantly fighting with the Scottish. So it's just a lot of land. They've got a lot of money and they are incredibly powerful. And he does a really good job, actually, of keeping these huge contiguous bits going. And, you know, like, in the 12th century, that's a pretty big deal because you can't move very quickly compared to now. So it's like you've got sort of a max, 30 miles a day, unless you're in a boat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he does a really great job administering all of this. And, you know, part of that is Eleanor, but, like, that's fine. That's another story. But he's this incredibly powerful guy who's also come to the throne in a weird way. We've just come out of the period here in England called the anarchy. Basically, Henry's mom, the Empress Matilda, was due to inherit the throne. But everyone was like, actually, we don't really like women. We don't want to do that. So instead, her cousins, Steven takes over. Not Steven. Not Steven. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

It just seems a bit everyday, Steven,

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

like, what's Steve doing here? Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Like, Steven's gonna kill the vibe.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

But like Steve, it's like a race. He gets here first, he gets the crown on his head.

[Anthony Delaney]

How many King Stevens have we had? I think just the one, surely, because

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

it's like stupid names.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Sorry to all the Stevens. My best friend as a child was Steven, and I actually do quite like the name.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Best friends. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

But it's just so on. I mean, you know, it's not very kingly.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. You know, it is quite funny. It's like how if you look too closely at German emperors, a lot of them are called Carl. And it's like, what's Carl doing here? And it's like. And the answer is, like, ruling an empire, I guess. Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sorry. So Stephen's doing very. So Steven undercuts Matilda. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And basically they end up at an impasse. Like, Matilda's got A court. Steven's got a court. Everybody's ruling different benchmarks and this ends up going to Henry because Steven's kid dies and they're like, I guess we don't really have an heir. And so Stephen makes Henry his heir. Right. So Henry's also got this real chip on his shoulder because he's like, bro, we just got control back of England. So he wants everything to be just so. And does a good line in that. And that involves his relationship with Thomas as well. Because when the Archbishop of Canterbury dies, he's like, brah, I'm going to get in my good friend Vanessa Felt. Is that right?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, it has nothing much to do with Vanessa Felt. So this. Right. So they're friends prior. So they're really good friends.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. And this is a weird one, right, Because Thomas comes from relatively humble origins. He's a London boy.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

London wide boy. It's really cute. If you go over, it's near Gutter Lane. There's like a little plaque on the side of the building where he was born. Adorable. We love to see a Thomas Becket plaque. So. But he's coming from a family of merchants, you know, obviously like Londoners are quite well to do this is kind of like the burgeoning middle class at the time. But obviously usually archbishops are drawn from royalty.

[Anthony Delaney]

Some kind of dynastic background. Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And now he's a very silly young man by all accounts. He and Henry go hunting all the time. Like they're party boys. They are drinking, they are carousing. So when, when the office opens up, Henry's like, aha, here's the thing I'm going to do. I'm putting my boy Thomas in. I know that I can trust him. I will be able to control him. Well, he's going to look out for the interests of the Crown as opposed to the Church. And you might say like, well, Eleanor, why do we even care about that? Like it's, it's the Church. Like what is, what are they going to do? Like say pray less.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

But the Church is a huge landowner, of course, so they own about a third of the land in England at the time. So it does mean that there are kind of like knock on effects for how taxation works and things like this. Where does the money go? That's like the constant question.

[Anthony Delaney]

If you were to cast these two men in a period drama, who's going to play them?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

This is such a good question.

[Anthony Delaney]

Just because I just want to, I just want to have the visual.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Okay. So I feel like, for Henry, we need someone kind of like. He's by all accounts, like, quite handsome. He's fairly tall. That's always gonna be your issue with actors.

[Anthony Delaney]

So it's like Jacob Elordi.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, he's tall.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, he's tall.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, we'll throw him in. And then for Thomas, he's also similarly. Like, people were like, oh, he's. He's, like, a bit handsome, but we want like, a kind of, like a shorter king.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

We want, like, you know, somebody who has sort of a good vibe but could at any moment become a nerd.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Who's intense enough?

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, it has to be intense. No, I think this. I'm gonna stick with my gut instinct on this, you know. I'm so sorry, I can't remember his name, because I think he is the. One of the best actors of this generation, actually, I'm saying that officially now. What is Saoirse Ronan's. Is that her name? Yeah. What is Saoirse Ronan's husband's name? The Scottish guy? Him.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Put the name in the. Put the Name in the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Mr. Sharon.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

When you were talking, I was like, yeah, okay. I love him.

[Anthony Delaney]

He's in Slow Horse, right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

That one. Yeah, we love Slow Horses.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. I only got into it really late, but, like. Yeah, it's. I do love it. Jack Loudon, producer Freddie has filled us in.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Okay. So, yeah, this is great. So this is what we're talking about.

[Anthony Delaney]

Important, important stuff. Important.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Listen, listen.

[Anthony Delaney]

So these two lads are. Jacob and Jack are getting on perfectly well. They have a lovely time. They are vibing off each other. They are now at a point where, because Henry is in power, he's like, I can extend my. It's quite savvy, actually.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, it's really smart.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And Henry is the king of this stuff, I mean, and also the king of England. But, you know, he's really good at kind of understanding where power lies and how to push it. The trouble is that the Church, at this point in time, you know, like, they did it. Guys, like, they're in control of everything. They're also doing a period of kind of crackdown. And these happen sort of, I would say, like, every 150 years or in the medieval period, like, we have. You know, someone will come in, they'll reform the church. 150 years later, the monks are all jacking each other off again. And then you gotta, like. Like, come back and then be like, stop doing that. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

So I wasn't sure. You said that I was A little bit like, don't. I was just looking at her going,

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

did she say, you know who I was?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, she did. Yes. Yes, she said it.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Listen, it's fine. So basically in the 12th century, we're having like one of these big crackdowns. Big parts of this are like, this is when it becomes official. They're like, seriously, Gu is no getting married a rice. Like it takes until the 12th century to really be like, I'm serious, you can't have a wife. They are like basically doing a lot of kind of legal points around things about like where money goes again. You know, they are deciding the church is supposed to be able to appoint archbishops. Basically it's like real captain bring down stuff. Like, I mean, it probably a good idea not to let priests get married because the issue is they were just like giving their kids like the church when they died. And it was like, that's a recipe

[Anthony Delaney]

for the word nepotism comes from. Right, exactly. Remember that from undergrad?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. So it's like, this is a big issue.

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[Anthony Delaney]

in a world where swords were sharp and hygiene

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

was actually probably better than you think it is. Two fearless historians, me, Matt Lewis, and me, Dr. Eleanor Young, dive head first into the mud, blood and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

[Anthony Delaney]

So for plagues, Crusades and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. Now, what you kind of hinted at this already, but we have archbishops usually coming from fairly elite dynastic families. We have. It's a power structure as well as a kind of an ecclesiastical thing, of course. But what is the role of an archbishop at this time?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

This is a great question, because archbishops. So when we say archbishop, it means you're more important than a regular bishop. Right. Okay. So in the Archbishop of Canterbury in particular, he's the highest member of the church in England.

[Anthony Delaney]

Challenge.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Right, right. And so what you are going to be doing is overseeing matters in ecclesiastical court, which is a thing. Okay. And ecclesiastical courts lot more busy in the medieval period than they would be now because there's all sorts of things that come down to being, like, ecumenical matters.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's like father's hands. That would be an ecumenical matter.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Exactly. And so, you know, basically, you know, a lot of things, if it isn't troubling, specifically the king's peace, you go to church court about it.

[Radhi Devlukia]

It.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Right. It's like, you know, things like adultery, things even sometimes like murder.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sodomy.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yes, sodomy, Absolutely. These are the sorts of things you're going to go in and they're going to say, you're very naughty. Ten Hail Marys. Like, get out of here. Even like, previous to this, usually the church did oversee things like murder. The church would be like. And they're the kind of like the thing for murder was you had to make it right with the family.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right? Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And that was kind of like the big thing. So there is like an actual legal responsibility. They also are going to be the point of contact with Rome.

[Anthony Delaney]

I, ah. Oh. So this is really important.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Really big. It's really big. So when Rome needs to put out new decrees about stuff like especially new matters about like who can get married, et cetera, et cetera, they're going to write to the archbishop and they're going to be like, listen, here's the deal.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And this is what you need to do. He will be going back and forth to Rome a lot. You know, he's going to be the one that is essentially the papal envoy without being a papal envoy. So you are supposed to really be the guy.

[Anthony Delaney]

And it gives this other center of power, and this is why it's dangerous, I suppose. And this is why Henry, on the surface of it, is being quite smart in appointing his friend, because it gives this other center of power that's not the king in England, and that center of power is linked to another massive center of power, as you've just been saying in Rome. And there are worlds in which this person could, if they were so inclined, challenge your authority, I suppose, or the ways in which you're trying to go about things. And again, this is why appointing Thomas, good old Tommy, is a great idea. So on the surface of it, this ain't ending in a horrendous murder on the floor of Canterbury Cathedral. So what starts to happen? Why does this. Where's the tension?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Unfortunately, Thomas wakes up one day and decides to be a nerd. Oh, he decides, like, well, he gets religion. He has a little road to Damascus moment. Like, the minute he becomes archbishop, he's like, actually, can I just surprise everyone? I love the church into this shit. I love it. We need to crack down. Like, I am the Pope's boy. He's got like a num. He's got, like a number one foam finger. He's holding it up. He's like, church, church.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, So I have a question about this, because what do we know what kind of roughly age he is when he becomes archbishop?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He's in his 40s. We can only ever know rough ages for medieval people. We never know when they're born. It's like vibes.

[Anthony Delaney]

So I'm just wondering, like, if it's a bit of a. You know, the way sometimes you see these weird progressions in people. I'm thinking a certain podcast presenter that is very bro y and has ventured into kind of toxic masculinity that was kind of some sort of pseudo therapist, totally unqualified to be as such. But there some. Sometimes this bro culture, and you've kind of been describing it a bit rogue culture, Right. But sometimes that starts to manifest into something far more staunch. And so what we see with Thomas is that he's like, actually, I love a rule now.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. Suddenly I am all about the church. I don't care about my relationship with Henry ii.

[Anthony Delaney]

Does he just abandon him?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He's just like, yeah, well, whatever. I wouldn't do that. Right. All of this kind of comes to a head in the year of our Lord 11:64, and Henry attempts to bring something out that is called the Constitutions of Clarendon. In this is a very smart thing that he's done. And essentially what he is doing is some legal decrees to limit the amount of power that the Church gets to have in England.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He's like, let's draw a line under this baby. Like, that's cute. Like, you're the Archbishop. I see you've got some land. I love your architecture. So nice for you.

[Anthony Delaney]

Lovely stained glass windows.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

But the thing about that is you can keep all that in the Church. Hello, I am the king and you are not the boss of me.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He's expecting Thomas to be like, so true. Bestie. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

This is. This is what we plan.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Go off, go off. And Thomas is like, no, that is not how this works.

[Anthony Delaney]

Can I ask a question here?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, of course.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you think that that is conversion, as in Thomas? I know it's impossible to know this. We're going too far back. But I'm just. I'm just interested to know what your. What your instinct is on it, that. That he is. He has gone all in on the religion and he's like, yes, I'm here for us. Or is he going, now I've got some power?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It's so difficult to say because I think that to a certain extent, you know, what Henry was thinking when he put him on the throne is it's like, oh, here's some guy who's just like a shopkeeper's son. This is something that they would, like, gossip about him. So he's always going to be in my thrall. He's gonna be so thankful that he's reached these lofty heights. I mean, we call bishops the princes of the Church.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Right. So this is the most power that anyone could ever think to get. And he thinks that Thomas is going to be great. It's very possible that Thomas is like, yeah, who. Who's the shopkeeper's son now, brah? You know, it might be specifically a clash of characters about the fact that he's always been in this position, but it's also very difficult to know with medieval people because they are always constantly on the verge of having a religious moment.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

You know, we have to understand that these people do genuinely believe this stuff. Now, granted, are there huge incentives for them to believe in these things? Yeah, absolutely. But we do live in a world where both These men are Christians.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Like, you know, they, they believe the whole shebang. Right. And they're jockeying for position within that world. So I, I can't say for certain, but I also wouldn't take either of those things off the table because.

[Anthony Delaney]

Because from what you've said then, it seems that the both things are so intertwined it would actually be impossible to really answer that. Because they are coexistent in their world.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Exactly. Right. Like it's a modern conceit that you can separate the two things. It's like there is no taking this out of religion for medieval people.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. That's so interesting. Now we're still, we're at a point where Beckett's pissed him off, basically. Pissed Henry off.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Sure has.

[Anthony Delaney]

And he's, he's thinking, right, I'm now dedicated to the Church. Henry's. I actually really admire that from what you've just said about Henry, because of trying to consolidate his power over the Church. However, some people, and I'm sure they did, especially within the Church power structure, saw that as maybe over stretching or tyrannical or whatever we want to. Words we want to put on it. Now, if you are a ruler and if you are trying to expand your territory and have this, you know, it's not absolute monarchy yet, but like, if you want to start laying the seeds of what will eventually blossom into that, this is the way to do it. My power is all powerful. It reaches everywhere. It's in every corner of this kingdom, including in those, you know, almost palatial. And I mean, bishops had palaces, you know, of certain descriptions. So it makes sense. And I think if you're going to be a king, you need to be trying to do that, whether it's morally right in our own modern ideas, kind of irrelevant. So I would imagine then when he gets as that type of king who is, I don't want to say obsessed, but who is using power as a way to legitimize his position, I'm imagining he's not going to take this, this pushback from his old pal very well.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

No, not at all.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And I mean, similarly from Thomas's side, now that he believes all this stuff, the Church kind of can't let this happen. Right. Because if what the Church is saying is, no, actually you have to take us really seriously. We're the most important people in Europe, really. The Pope is in, is the boss of everybody.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Right. You can't let the constitutions of Clarendon go through.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Like that has to, has to be Stopped. So, you know, this is just like we're at loggerheads here. Neither of these men are going to give up on it. So what happens as a result is Thomas just dips.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, he goes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He runs. He runs.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He is out of the country for six years now.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's interesting because, yes, now that you've said that, I'm like, oh, yeah, there's an exile. But I, I would have assumed it was an imposed exile. But no, he. It's a self imposed exile.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. He gets out and he goes to Rome. And so. And like, this is the thing. Like, he's like, dad, Henry's being mean to me. And like, so he just goes. He just is talking to the church and he's like explaining this entire thing. He does a good line of bouncing between really virtuous monasteries as well.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So he's like doing a big tour. Like, he ends up at Clooney. He ends up in all of these places where like the monks are working overtime. You got to understand, again, in the 12th century, it's just like the monks are going for it. This is the time when we've got like enemy of the podcast. I'm declaring him as such Bernard of Clairvaux, so. Or Bernard, depending on. On how you want to say it. Who, Bernie, you know, the who the cute dogs are named after. We love. Love the dogs, hate the saint. Yeah, but like, motto for life.

[Anthony Delaney]

You must get a. A T shirt. T shirt with that on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So true. And like he. And he is like doing a big crackdowns. And this is kind of the Milu that Thomas is now steeped in. So it only makes it worse, right?

[Anthony Delaney]

In England.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And so basically he's just bouncing around, hanging out with all these monks on the continent and they're like, yeah, like your king is bad and also sucks. Do. Would you like to get more radicalized?

[Anthony Delaney]

I was literally, this is the word I was thinking of. It's like, it's radicalization, but also in terms of him, it's smart in a way because it's also a long term goal branding, where he's like, I am around these people. I am in and out of these. You know, you're talking about like kind of top notch monasteries and he is showing himself to be one of their number as well as then kind of experiencing this, this type of radicalization. It's really interesting and I think that

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

that is really key to understanding all of this, because when he shows back up in England in 1170.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, we're back yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So he, like, he comes back and everyone's kind of surprised. They're like, oh, you're. You're back.

[Anthony Delaney]

You don't. You don't need to be here.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Because everyone understands that this is. Is a really tense situation that could turn violent. And so we have to understand from Thomas's standpoint, he is kind of tempting fate. Right. This is an interesting point. Right. Because so here he is, and he will become a martyr. Right. Like, we're like, again, flash forward. But it is weird to have a high medieval. We're in the high medieval period here, like, right in the middle of it. It is weird to have a high medieval martyr. Right, right. Martyrs of the Church, most of them come from, like, the late antique period. It's like when we've still got Romans. Yeah, right. Like, ordinarily, to get martyred, you got to get martyred by a pagan. Right. You need to be like, someone who's like, I am preaching to the people of Pomerania, and you got to get got by, like, a Germanic pagan.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is that where the dogs come from?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It's important.

[Anthony Delaney]

More dogs.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

My God, there's always a dog. So you've got to get killed by the Umayyad Caliphate in Spain in the year 800. It's gotta be like that. It is weird and difficult to get martyred in the 12th century because we've mostly Christianized most of Europe by this point in time. Even the Vikings have given it up. It's basically just Estonia systems in place. Yeah. And so who's gonna kill you? Yeah, like, that's weird. But it's still something that Christians aim for because, like, that's a hot ticket. If you get killed for your faith, that's straight up to heaven. Right. And you've got to understand that, like, all you got to do is go look at a medieval hell fresco. See who's in hell. Like, see who's in the hell mouth. See who's in hell. And it's always guys who have crowns on their heads. It's always guys who have papal tiaras or bishops tiaras, which is what they're called. You know, the little hats. Yeah. It's not necessarily like a miter. It's a tiara.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Which is. That's real cute. And so. So there is this understanding that these incredibly wealthy and powerful people are more likely to end up in hell.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Because worldly power is corrupting. They get these things through violence. It is very often thought that people who are within the ranks of the Church are actually Hypocrites. So this is a kind of sweet deal. So it's like, yeah, if you really believe this stuff, like really believe it, even if you get killed, you're gonna be fine.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. The one way ticket's there.

[Radhi Devlukia]

This is Radhi Devlukia from a really good cry. Most wellness routines fail somewhere between day one, motivation and where did I put that powder? That's where Groons comes in. Groons packs over 20 vitamins and minerals, greens and prebiotics into a snack pack of tiny, delicious gummies. No powders, no pills. Just a simple way to support gut health, beauty, energy, immunity, recovery and cognition. Plus, the ingredients in Groons are backed by over 35,000 research publications. It's a convenient, comprehensive formula designed for real life. Get up to 52% off with code CRY@GROONSCO. That's code CRY. And at Gruns Co.

[Anthony Delaney]

In a world where swords were sharp

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

and hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is, two fearless historians,

[Anthony Delaney]

me, Matt Lewis, and me, Dr. Eleanor

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yanaga, dive head first into the mud, blood and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

[Anthony Delaney]

So for plagues, crusades and Viking raids and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History hit wherever you get your podcasts. Now you. You talk about him coming back, right. And this is obviously a turning point in the history. And. And we are now galloping a little bit more towards the inevitable.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yep.

[Anthony Delaney]

Shutdown of his life. But you pinpointed 1170. Yeah, but the king's not in England.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

No, I mean, why would the king

[Anthony Delaney]

being in England, especially when he has all this territory that you have talked about. Now tell me what that actually means in terms of why he's away and how he's controlling England in this particular moment. And also if, if, if Thomas comes back because Henry's away or.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, it seems like part of what is happening here is that Thomas is like, king's not here, like, and you know what that means. Time to go back to Canterbury. Am I right? And so, so he's like, well, I'm gonna come back into the country when it's not going to provoke a direct confrontation with Henry.

[Anthony Delaney]

I see.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Henry is in Normandy. Lovely, lovely, lovely, nice place. You know, and this is because, you know, he's got all sorts of stuff to deal with. Right. Like, he's constantly beefing with the French king. He's got a lot of lands minister. And also Castle Normandy is very nice. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Like, you got to film there all the time. I don't. I Get sent to Yorkshire.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Well, look, let's. We'll st. We'll cook something up. We're going to cook something up. Look, listen to me.

[Anthony Delaney]

But anyway, he's there and he's having a lovely time. Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And he's having a really wonderful time. And this is kind of not unusual. You've got to understand that when English kings write anything at the time, if you make a big decree, if you write a little letter, one of the first things they have at the top is something called an oranga. There you go. Here's. We're getting real nursery. Right. This is. This is like real medieval people hours.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, go. Amazing. I love it. I love it.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So what you do is you declare all your titles up front. Yeah. And so it always says. The first thing it will always say is rex Anglorum, King of England, obviously. And the next thing it will say is, at dux Normanorum and the Duke of Normandy. And then at this point in time, he's like. And ducks aqua tenorum and things like that. And it just keeps going on and on and on. So. So you gotta understand that being the Duke of Normandy is almost as important to these guys as being the King of England. They control more land in France at this point in time than they do in England. I mean, it's a big. It's bigger. It's bigger than England and it's incredibly wealthy. It's where they're getting a lot of money from. So he's just got to be down there quite often so that he can really rile up King Louis. It's very important.

[Anthony Delaney]

Important presence is key, right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Absolutely.

[Anthony Delaney]

You need to be there, or else you could lose the territory.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

We call it peripateticism.

[Anthony Delaney]

Always that's like.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It's like, I'm down the pub. I'm talking about parasites.

[Anthony Delaney]

I think that was my first word as a child. I remember.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It's a wonder that you didn't become a medievalist. I can't believe it. But.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, yeah, I used to. Yeah. Anyway, look, that's for another day. Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So, like, he is down there in Normandy and he's having Christmas court.

[Anthony Delaney]

Literally.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's literally December.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, Christmas. Christmas court.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So we're talking about. We're setting it up and, like, down there, really nice little castle. You've got, like, these great tapestries on all the walls. We got huge fires. He's just, like, popping it out and he's just partying cozy. Like that's what you're supposed to do.

[Anthony Delaney]

Like, if you're gonna be a king, you might as well.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And I can't stress how much, like, in the medieval period, Christmas, that's like a month. It begins like the first day of Christmas is December 25th, guys.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And then it goes from there. And then you gotta do all 12 days.

[Anthony Delaney]

January, so much more bearable.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

It really does.

[Anthony Delaney]

You wouldn't have to do your tax return. They wouldn't make you do your tax return.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

No, they would never. They. Because they're like, no, babe, have a nice time. It's like, you've got to keep going till Candlemas. That's in February.

[Anthony Delaney]

I love Candle. The word candle.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So good.

[Anthony Delaney]

Candles.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So he's like, set up. And here's the thing, he's kind of like trying to just have a nice time, right? He's got these tensions with the French king. And then word comes to him that Thomas is back in England and he's

[Anthony Delaney]

like, this guy, guess who's back?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And he's like, this is not the headache I need right now.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to, A, have a nice time at Christmas.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

B, I'm here to annoy the French king.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. I'm not in England mode right now.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

No, no, no, no, no. And so, like, don't remind me about England. I'm being a fancy lad. So then compare and contrast with Canterbury. Canterbury, Very important place.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

I mean, it's still a very important place. Like, let's be so for real. But it is the seat of Church power and they're having a very different kind of Christmas. Right. You know, like. Like, don't get me wrong, they are. They do still have big part that. It's just that, like, you're going to be more austere because you're the Church and it's like, not going to look particularly, you know, festive as fancy in the same way. Now, Canterbury is still very important because it's the seat of the Church, but it's not as important as it is now or will subsequently be about to because of this, you know, so. But basically, you've got to also understand that one of the things that exists at the cathedral at that point in time is a huge community of monks. Monks.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. Oh, okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Henry VIII will take care of all of that. And he also will destroy Thomas Beckett's tomb. But, you know, we've got like a huge complex of monasteries. So, like, here we go, we got Thomas and he is just like pious maxing, like there. Yeah. And he's Just, like, he's given it the big one, and so that's what's going on. So we have these two guys, right? Like, and everyone's kind of, like, excited to see Thomas back. They're like, oh, wow. Like, look, you know, he's. He's back. Like, we're gonna get some action around here. That's kind of cool. And Henry's furious. And the thing about the courts in general is there's just, like, a lot of guys around. Yeah, there's just guys around in the area. There's hot nights. Hot nights in your area. All right. Like, that's. That's what's going on. That's what's going on at this point in time. And so there is always just a lot of dudes around.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And knights are going to come to court a lot of the time, more specifically, when they are not the most important member of their own family. Family.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Because if you're the most important member of your own family, your people have their own castle.

[Anthony Delaney]

So you're there.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So you're there. Right. Like, so if you're. If you're number one son. Number one son is going to inherit all the land under the system of primogeniture which the Normans bring in. So then you're going to inherit the castle in Essex or whatever. Second son, probably going to join the church.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And then, you know, maybe he's hanging out at Canterbury now. Who knows? Third son.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm free, guys.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So, like, if. And if you're from one of the fancier families, you can then, like, maybe make your way to court. Right. So one of the things that you're doing when you're at court. Right. A Is you're living a comparatively nice life, which you wouldn't be able to do at home because there isn't enough land for you. But you're also trying to make a name for yourself.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yep.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Right. And so what you want to do is come to the attention of the king for a big heroic deed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Oh, right. I'm seeing where this is going now.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And now allegedly. Yes, allegedly. We have the phrase.

[Anthony Delaney]

You know the phrase something like, oh, okay, I'm gonna butcher this, but you can correct me something like, can somebody rid me of this damn monk? Or something?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Oh, I love that. It's who. Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?

[Anthony Delaney]

That one.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. It's really good. Like, this is a legend. Yes, A legend.

[Anthony Delaney]

And probably not.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, it's like, it's very Like, I want pictures of Spider man, you know, or like, whatever, you know? So he's like. He's just giving it the big one. And as far as he is concerned, he's just blowing off some steam. Yeah, he's blowing off some steam around his head. Like. Like. And, you know, like. And he's basically like, I hope something happens to him. You know? And it's. But that isn't necessarily a call to action. Except for a couple of dudes.

[Anthony Delaney]

29 December.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Listen, no one is saying that knights are the smartest guys, right? Okay. Like, all of these boys have cte, right? They're just like, cte, you know? You know the. When you get hit in the head all the time, right?

[Anthony Delaney]

Like, I'm not that kind of a doctor.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So, you know, like, they're. They're constantly on horseback. They're getting hit in the head all the time while wearing a helmet. I am not saying that These guys live.

[Anthony Delaney]

And so they're like, you're not putting out a new theory.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Great. So, you know, they're. They're at Christmas court and they're like, guys, here's an opportunity. I have a plan. And so, like, they get on their little ship, they sail over to England, and they arrive at Canterbury on 29 December. Now, again, let us recall how Christmas works. This is the fourth day of Christmas.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So it is. What is it, five? Four? It's four calling birds. Do they have four calling birds?

[Anthony Delaney]

How many nights are they. They are the four calling birds. Oh.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Oh, that's what's up. Okay, that's what's up. Right? So they show up, and the thing about this is people are like, oh, this is a huge surprise. And they just rush in and kill Thomas. I feel. And the generalized position of most medieval historians is like, he saw this coming.

[Anthony Delaney]

That Thomas did.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

That Thomas did. Right?

[Anthony Delaney]

And what, knew he was about to be martyred or.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, most likely. All right, so he is in the cathedral itself at the time, right? And in run these four nights, and they're like, oh, you're a little bitch. Like, I can't believe you don't love.

[Anthony Delaney]

This is verbatim, right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Says here you a little bitch. What do you got to say about that? What do you say to that? And Thomas is like, this is literally a cathedral.

[Anthony Delaney]

So, I mean, sir, Sir. But this is. This is one of those things where the sanctity of this space is that you do not enter in this way. Right? We are breaking social norms by doing this 100%.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

You're not even supposed to be coming into the church with weapons, armed. Yeah, yeah, Listen to me. Also, you know that when you go into a church, right? People are able to claim sanctuary even if they're a criminal, even if they've done something terrible, they're allowed to go into a church. And essentially what's gonna happen with that is a priest is gonn.

[Anthony Delaney]

Like, babe, yeah, I don't.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

My good friend. Like, let me explain something to you. And then they're going to explain that you've actually got to go give yourself up or you'll never go to heaven. Right? But it is theoretically possible. The monks are like, thomas, don't do it. Oh, babe, no. Like, come on. Like, like, like, run back into the monastery with us. We will protect you. Thomas is like, I'm not going anywhere. Do you see what they just said to me in my own house? I don't. Like, I'm not. I'm not the jerk here, right? So he is, like, refusing to leave. And the knights just. Just lose it. Like, they just lose their little minds. And they stab him up. They stab him right up. And most importantly, end up cutting the top off his head. Like, it's like a little. Like a little hat.

[Anthony Delaney]

And the brains. Well, yeah, Somebody says the brains spill, right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. And it's like, it is gory. I mean, medieval people love it. They're like, there's blood everywhere. Like, the head is off the top and they collect all of the blood because that's what medieval people, like, they're collecting all this immediately. They're like rags. Yeah. They're like, we. We've got to, like, get all of this stuff up. And the knights are kind of like, oh,

[Anthony Delaney]

oh, Nobody even officially sent us here.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

They're like, that. This is escalated quickly. I don't really know what to do. Right. They run off. The monks, meanwhile, are like, oh, our beloved archbishop, who is, like, so, so real and good. And one of the big things that happens when they're dealing with his body is they discover that underneath all of his rich, aristocratic archbishop robes, because you got to dress the part, right? Yeah. He's wearing a hair shirt.

[Anthony Delaney]

Of course he is.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He is, yeah. Right. And it's like. And so he's like, oh, actually, I mean, I have to do it because. But I am so penitential and. Yeah, babe, I eat vegan. You know, I eat vegan. I wear the hair shirt, like. And everyone is like, oh, bro, bro. Is this a martyr?

[Anthony Delaney]

This looks very like a martyr.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And so, like, basically immediately really quickly.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Really quick. And because, like, obviously they're like, quick, go tell the Pope they're running off to Rome. And this is just like 100%, we've got a saint on our hands. There is nothing you can do at this point in time.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, they pushed the saint button.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

They really. And this is the thing, is that I argue there's no way that Henry knew about this, because Henry would know that Henry would know that he doesn't want to turn this guy into a saint.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, and this is the. The pivotal point. You have been setting this up the whole way through this episode, that Henry is actually quite smart. He is power focused. He knows strategically what he has to do. The strategy doesn't always work out, but he knows what he has to do to put those pillars of power in place. And one of those things would be to. If you are that way, if you are minded in that way, one of the things to do would be to placate the church rather than put it into supplication, because that will make it push back, make it start to, you know, Rome is going to push back. And so I agree with you. I hadn't even really thought about it before, whether or not he had actually known about this as a. As an instruction or he had meant it as an instruction. But I think you're absolutely right. You're an expert, so you would be. But it is important to put that in, I think, number one and then number two, to know the reason that it has to be that is because it ruins his whole plan. This, the killing of his old friend and archbishop now, or former archbishop now because he's dead, ruins his plans to. To take power in the way that he had. Like, this is what ends his plan. So he would never have done that knowingly.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He's just too smart. And he would know that this was going to happen. But on the other hand, my boy pivots real fast. He's like, oh, oh, wow. Because he knows.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

He knows that this is like. Like he's in too deep. And so one of the first things that he does is he's like, Dear Mr. Pope. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

[Anthony Delaney]

I actually love your gowns.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, it's like I thought, ooh, okay. Right, so. And like, the wheels are in motion. He becomes a full fledged saint within three years. That is wild. That is because, you know, especially around this point in time, the church is really cracking down on who can become saints. It used to be like, oh, we've got our local guy, Jack Jeff. And everyone is like, oh, yeah, we love Jeff. Saint Jeff, like, you know, Jeff of the stones. And then the church is like, whatever it takes, baby. But again, we've got centralized power now. So finally they're like, no, you have to go through these particular processes and procedures. You've got to show miracles. The monks are all like, oh, bruh, I was so hungover, but that I went into the church where Thomas was, and then I wasn't hungover anymore. And the church is like, miracle.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, that's.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Did you hear that?

[Anthony Delaney]

Because they're diluted looting his blood as well.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

They are.

[Anthony Delaney]

They're putting blood, his blood into water. And people are either, you know, putting it on themselves or some people are drinking it.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, people are drinking it. People are kissing. The skull cap.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, yeah, the cut off skull cap.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, they're the tomb that Henry VIII destroyed. God, I hate that man. Was incredibly cool. And it had this two layered system where the body was kind of in a stone sarcophagus up top, and there was a big underneath that you could go lay under the body and be like, oh, Thomas, please be thinking of me. So that you could kind of like

[Anthony Delaney]

be in proximity to saintliness.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. And like the best chance possible of getting a miracle. Yeah, yeah. So like, absolutely incredible stuff. So Henry sees this and he's like, okay, what we are going to do is we're going to get out ahead of this and he's going to be like, actually, I loved my boy Thomas. Like, it's crazy.

[Anthony Delaney]

Look at all the pictures on my Instagram.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And he's just like, bringing it up back and he's like, rip, you know, like, this is 100.

[Anthony Delaney]

His memory reel is going off now

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

and pilgrims are coming from all over in order to, as you've already mentioned, get hold of this blood. Yes. Right. So this is like, People love relics. The. The thing about relics is the idea of a relic is it's more likely that you're going to get divine intervention if you're in contact with a relic. Because the saints are already in proximity with God.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Right. And God's got a lot on his plate.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. God love him. He has. He's busy.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

And so it might be easier to get hold of a saint who are standing next to God and they can be like, oh, God, this one. Like, can you. Could you just like, do my boy real quickly? Right. And so essentially, one way of thinking about relics is it's thought that it gives you a direct connection to that saint who's in heaven. Yeah. So if you like drinking the blood, if you're touching the skull cap, if you're laying underneath the body, you might

[Anthony Delaney]

as well be in heaven whispering in his ear.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

100%. Right. So people start coming from all over Europe in order to be in communion with these relics. Yeah, yeah. And Henry sees an opportunity. So because it's not just ordinary people. Ordinary people do come and you know, ordinary people in the Middle Ages, they do travel a lot. Specifically on pilgrimage.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Because like, because like your landlord can't tell you you can't go on pilgrimage.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. So that's the only, one of the only things they can't do.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Exactly. And it's like, everybody likes traveling, they like to get away. And they're like, England, going to England.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's blood on the floor somewhere in Canterbury.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

You heard it? I mean. Yeah, because like, I'm just pretty adventurous.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

So I'm going to England.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well traveled.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, exactly. And so Henry's like, listen, I am also going to really promote this because he immediately starts seeing pounds signs in his head. Right. And he's like, oh, people are coming to Canterbury, is it? He rebuilds the castle at Dover in some style because that is like one of the big places that people come. And so if you are a king or a nobleman and you want to go to Canterbury, you're going to go and you're going to stop at Dover first. And he's like, and I've got like my own relics and you can come stay here. And so it ends up actually elevating Henry's profile.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

As well. Because he's contrite and he's saying, look, you know, I will help you on your way to Canterbury. Yeah, like, and also, cuz you're coming to Canterbury, right?

[Anthony Delaney]

Like you're, you can't come to.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

You were going to come, like everybody's coming to Canterbury, like. And so it ends up putting England on the map more than it was previously because they've got their own little bonafide saints.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a destination now.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So as a finishing point then, and as a place to kind of exit out of this, do you think this murder sets the roadmap for what's to come? It seems to me that it does. What's to come over the next two or three, four, 500 years in terms of the relationship between the church and the state? Is that one of the conclusions that we can take from this particular history?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Oh, absolutely. And I mean like, God bless those little nuns, Knights this is the exact opposite of what they wanted.

[Anthony Delaney]

And four people. It's only. It's. It's mad, isn't it, when you think about it? It's only four men.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

That did that.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Yeah. And it basically ossifies the position of the Church as more powerful.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

In effect, because there's no. It backs Henry into a corner. He's done the best that he can with it. He manages to turn it into a little destination. He's going to make some money off of it, but. But he has to back down. Yes. From everything that he's attempting to do in terms of the Church. And also, it's kind of a warning to other Kings as well. They're like, ah, well, yeah, you saw what happened with Henry. Right. So it really gives the Church a very powerful position in the end, from which it is impossible to back down. Henry does the best he can with it. Yeah. But that's like trying to. You know, this is a.

[Anthony Delaney]

You can't put the genie back in.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

No, you can, you can. And so it just is basically saying that the Church is going to win these things. And the Church is correct, because, say what you will, it doesn't matter how annoying an archbishop is, you probably shouldn't murder them in their cathedral.

[Anthony Delaney]

And on that note, that's a lesson for you all to take into everyday life. So I don't know about you, but, like, that is a good start to our partnership over the next month. And After Dark, right?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Oh, I believe so. I'm so excited to be here. I've got lots more dead people to gossip about.

[Anthony Delaney]

The sexual tension has just been unbearable. They'll be talking about it for eons. Thank you for watching After Dark and listening to After Dark. If you don't know, we also have a YouTube channel. You can go and find us on YouTube now, where you can watch along as well as listen to wherever you're getting your podcasts. One thing which we never do is tell you where to find us. You can find me @Antony Delaneyhistory on Instagram. Where can they find you? Eleanor?

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

Dr. Eleanor Yannaga Instagram.

[Anthony Delaney]

So there you are. That's where you can find us. We will have more medieval mischief for you in the coming episode. Stay tuned for those. Thank you so much, Eleanor. I'm so glad that you're with us. And until next time, happy listening.

[Dr. Eleanor Yannaga]

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