← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
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- [00:00]
Maddy Pelling
Hello everyone. It's us, your hosts, Maddy Pelling and Anthony Delaney.
- [00:04]
Anthony Delaney
But before we begin the show, we want to ask for a few seconds.
- [00:08]
Maddy Pelling
Of your time if you're enjoying After Dark. And we love you if you are, we would love you just a little bit more if you could vote for us in the Listener's Choice category at the British Podcast Awards.
- [00:18]
Anthony Delaney
So go to the Show Notes now, click the link and just then search for After Dark. Fill in your name and your email and don't forget to confirm they will send you an email you need to confirm. The whole process probably takes about 30 seconds.
- [00:31]
Maddy Pelling
If you've already voted, we are so, so grateful. If you haven't stop what you are doing right now. Vote for us before you enjoy this show.
- [00:41]
Unknown
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- [00:42]
Maddy Pelling
How fast are we talking?
- [00:45]
Unknown
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- [01:05]
Free delivery.
- [01:06]
Maddy Pelling
It's on Prime.
- [01:11]
Unknown
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- [01:39]
Anthony Delaney
We'Ve done your homework.
- [01:42]
Maddy Pelling
Oh, whatcha eating?
- [01:43]
Unknown
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- [01:49]
Maddy Pelling
Wow, that sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?
- [01:51]
Unknown
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- [01:55]
Maddy Pelling
Not even a little.
- [01:56]
Unknown
Not even a crumb.
- [01:57]
Maddy Pelling
What if.
- [01:58]
Unknown
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- [02:13]
Maddy Pelling
Hello and welcome to After Dark. In today's episode, we are going into the heart of Dickensian Britain. Through the smog of London at its industrial peak and into the heart of the of a dark murder. Here's Anthony to take it away.
- [02:35]
Anthony Delaney
London, 1849. The city groans under the weight of the industrial age. Queen Victoria sits on the throne as Britain tightens its grip on empire. And the Times reports the death toll from yet another wave of cholera tearing through the city. Inside the capital, wealth and poverty live side by side. Gilded parlors overlook alleys where hungry children sleep in the shadows. The streets of Bermondsey are choked with fog, sweat and soot. This is a world of clanging iron and endless hunger. Rats skitter along gutters, cold dust clings to the skin, and secrets are buried in brickwork. And inside a cramped terraced house on Miniver Place, something terrible is about to unfold. Frederick and Marie Manning have dressed for dinner. The kitchen is dim, the floor newly scrubbed. Though a keen eye might notice, the flagstones are uneven. Upstairs, their lodgers stir, oblivious. Their guest tonight is Patrick o', Connor, a man with money in his pockets and his past. With Marie firmly on his mind, he arrives at the door with the confidence of someone long welcomed, not knowing that the table has been set not just for supper, but for murder. As the oil lamp flickers and the city's grime clings to the window panes, a plan honed over weeks nears its end. A pistol has been secreted behind a cupboard door. A shovel has been propped against the scullery wall. What happens tonight will spill across the penny broadsheets and draw crowds in their thousands to the gallows. This is a story soaked in the smoke of Dickensian London, where love curdles into greed and the floor beneath your feet might just be hiding a body. This is After Dark, and this is the Bermondsey Horror.
- [04:53]
Maddy Pelling
Hello, everyone. I'm Maddie.
- [04:55]
Anthony Delaney
And I'm Anthony.
- [04:57]
Maddy Pelling
And this is an episode that you guys have been asking for, I think, since the beginning of the podcast two whole years ago. I am genuinely very excited for this. And whilst I am an 18th centuryist at heart, and we've already established that my long 18th century continues into the Victorian period, and whilst I do not care for the late Victorian period, this is a sweet spot. We're in the 1840s. This is acceptable. I'm good to go. This is a moment where Queen Victoria's only been on the throne for 12 years, so we're not that far into what is going to be a very long reign. And there's a backdrop, as we heard at the beginning, of this smoggy, factory packed Dickensian world of soot and grime. It's deliciously disgusting with the distance of history. I suppose. The other thing that I find so interesting about this story is that it takes place on Jacob's island, which is one of London's most notorious slums in the 19th century. And it's an area that in that moment was packed with tanneries. So you can just imagine not only the sort of quality of the air in terms of the grime that was in it, but also the smell. This is sensory overload for me. Like if I had to travel back in time, was plonked down here, never mind all the murdering and people being buried under the floorboard, just the sensory overload alone would kill me.
- [06:12]
Anthony Delaney
I think speaking about somebody getting killed, this is history of somebody getting killed. We're talking about the Bermondsey murder in particular and just give you a little overview of what we're going to be dealing with in this episode. This is set in 1849. It's the murder of Patrick O' Connor by Frederick and Marie Manning. They are a married couple living in Bermondsey in London. And Marie had previously been Oconnors lover and she had been plotting to kill OConnor with her husband Frederick. Are you confused? It's not that confusing. That's about as confusing as it gets. And the reason they wanted to kill him was for his money. So that's the overview and now we're going to go into some of the details in a little bit more depth.
- [06:51]
Maddy Pelling
Anthony, give me the timeline of this case. Who are the main characters and when does this story really start to begin? When do we first encounter them?
- [06:59]
Anthony Delaney
So we press play in the early 1840s and I suppose our leading lady is Marie Deroux. Although if you're reading some of the contemporary accounts, you will often see her named as Maria, but it's the same person. So it's either Marie, Marie Maria Deroux, but Marie we're going to call her for the purposes of this episode. She is a Swiss born woman. She has moved to England when she's 28 and she starts working as a ladies maid for the daughter of the Duchess of Sutherland. So it's, you know, it's a relatively prestigious.
- [07:27]
Maddy Pelling
That's a good gig position.
- [07:29]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, it is a good gig and it begs questions actually, based on some of the things we know about her. Let's discover some of those things now. So what we find out very quickly is, is that she leaves that employment. We're told she leaves. Does she leave? Does she get kicked out? I don't know. It doesn't really make sense because she leaves and ends up living in Bermondsey. And some of the sources at the Time. And I don't buy this claim that she left due to her ambition and her taste for luxury. Now, I think they're writing this with the knowledge that they have a murderess on their hands. Because if she had an ambition for taste and luxury, which she might very well have had, she would have stayed with the daughter of the Duchess of Sutherland. She would not be in Bermondsey.
- [08:08]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, exactly. As we've heard, Bermondsey is one of the most horrendous slums in the city at this point. And to have gone, you know, from living as a lady's maid, you're living in a fine house under the protection of that household, in a steady job, something has gone wrong there. But it is interesting because I think we come up against this so many times, especially in the 19th century, actually, when a woman is at the heart of a murder and is not the victim, that she is transformed, often in the media, often in the press, as a monster, as someone who has inverted her own femininity, who is going against the ideals of the time and is monstrous in all these different kind of ways. She's maybe ambitious, she's greedy, she's sexually manipulative to the men around her. And I suspect that's what we're gonna see in the story. And I'm just bearing that in mind and thinking about how we strip those layers back as we go, actually. So I wanna keep thinking about that. But either way, we do know that she leaves the employment of the daughter of the Duchess of Sutherland and she ends up in Bermondsey. I mean, so far, not great, but no crime has been committed. So what happens next?
- [09:15]
Anthony Delaney
Well, let's talk about some of the other characters before we go into the what next part. Just so that we have them lined up, so we have Marie there. Our next person that we're gonna be looking at is our victim, and that is Patrick O'. Connor. He is 50 years old. He is an independently wealthy Irishman. He's a customs officer and a money le. And this is key. And when I was looking at some of the research for this, I was like, what are they talking about? This man always having money on him. Why do they know he has money on him all the time is because he is a customs officer, he also collects rents and because he's a money lender. So he's going around with a lot of cash on him, kind of at all times. He also has valuable railway shares, but they're not necessarily on him.
- [09:56]
Maddy Pelling
See, that's so interesting, though. Because, I mean, the railway at this point is presumably very, very new. It's in its earliest stages. So he's a sort of a man who is tapped into modern 19th century ways of making money. Right. He's presumably on the rise and is obviously, as you say, wealthy as well. So how do the paths cross or do they cross at this point?
- [10:16]
Anthony Delaney
They do cross and there are differing, you know, you're talking about sources and how reliable sources are. We have to remember that we are reading sources from the 19th century here. That's all about crime. This is how we know about these people. There are varying views. One is that they met in the 1840s. We're probably guessing around the mid-1840s when she was in domestic service. That's one of the things. I have read another account that says she met at Customs when she was with the daughter of the Duchess of Sutherland, that they were going somewhere and that's how she met him, Patrick o'. Connor.
- [10:49]
Maddy Pelling
So, I mean, I can't imagine that being like a long interaction at Customs.
- [10:52]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, I know, like, it's like, well, now we're having an affair, but somehow their paths cross and they form a romantic relationship. And you, you know, bear in mind that as you're kind of hinting there, this is a wealthy man, a wealthy self made Irishman. And that is something that comes into play. Like often you'll read accounts of him going, oh, he's brutal. And actually he's quite boastful. And you know what, he's always drunk. And I was like, there's a lot of Irish stereotypes going on there. Potentially. He's also just a successful businessman who happens to have done quite well for himself. There's also that going on.
- [11:27]
Maddy Pelling
There's definitely a feeling of like, he doesn't deserve the wealth that he's got, the position that he's got for himself. I also want to just point out that I think the age gap between them is interesting. So Marie is 28 when she comes to England and he is already in his 50s. And I wonder actually, I mean, you mentioned there that they meet potentially when she's in domestic service. And I just wonder if she's a servant in his household when they start a relationship and what that power dynamic might look like. It's just an interesting possibility.
- [11:59]
Anthony Delaney
I don't think so though, because I think the only domestic service position that she had in England was in the. For the daughter of the Duchess of Sutherland. She came to do that job, that's why she was there. So in, in England now, not in Switzerland, not prior in. In continental Europe, but in England. That's her domestic service record is. Is just that one. So she won't have been in his household as a servant, but somehow she still meets him in that. It's really not quite clear.
- [12:25]
Maddy Pelling
It's a mystery, isn't it? Okay, so we have them having some kind of relationship. We don't know how they meet. Their paths cross. He's wealthy, he's older. She is in this happy, comfortable position until she's not, for whatever reason, and is out of work and living in a slum.
- [12:41]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. And we don't know. And that, to me is just really suspicious. There's a story there that we don't have the archival evidence for, but there's something going on there.
- [12:47]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And also because, you know, being a lady's maid is a privileged position. It's a position of intimacy with the woman who employs you. It's a position of trust. It's a position that you could hope to hold for many, many years, potentially a job for life, depending, I suppose, on the age of the woman who you're looking after. Something has gone drastically wrong there, I think. But tell me this. She's now in Bermondsey. She's having some kind of relationship, maybe on and off. We don't really know. They're certainly not living together.
- [13:15]
Anthony Delaney
That's the impression I get.
- [13:16]
Maddy Pelling
But we know from your opening there that she is eventually married to someone else. So who is this person and how do they meet?
- [13:22]
Anthony Delaney
So we're not sure how they meet, but it's Frederic George manning. He is 37 at the time when they get married. We think that they met around the 1846 mark, just based on the sequence of events. Now, why does she marry him, who is working class, doesn't have the financial prospects of Patrick o'? Connor? It's a question we don't necessarily know the answer to, but some sources will tell you that it's because Patrick o' Connor would not marry Marie de Ro, so he was not willing to take her as an official wife. So that's interesting as well. So there's something going on here where Marie might be attractive for sexual purposes or whatever, but for some reason for Patrick, she's not fitting the criteria of wife couple. That with the idea that she's been dismissed from the Duchess of Sutherland's daughter's house, something's going on. We don't have the archival evidence. It would all just be speculation. But it is interesting nonetheless.
- [14:19]
Maddy Pelling
It is interesting, especially because Patrick O' Connor himself, being in his 50s and a respectable man who's got all these investments and, you know, a steady job and a reasonable amount of money to his name for the time and his position in society, surely he would, to paraphrase Jane Austen, be in want of a wife.
- [14:37]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. Not Marie, though. So.
- [14:39]
Maddy Pelling
Not Marie.
- [14:40]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, that's exactly the point. Right. It's like, okay, there's something there.
- [14:44]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. So, okay, tell me this, because I think this is one of the most interesting things in this case, and it's something that we see again and again. I'm trying to think back to the case that we did, I think, in the 1920s, with a sort of throuple situation where one of them was murdered by the married pair, but they were all kind of living together, and we have, like, photos of them in the garden and stuff. I'm thinking here that there are some blurred lines in terms of the relationships that are going on, because you already have this kind of strange relationship with o' Connor where Marie is not his wife wife, she's not living with him, but there is some kind of maybe sexual relationship still ongoing, and then she's marrying Frederick Manning. But the relationship with o' Connor doesn't necessarily end, does it?
- [15:28]
Anthony Delaney
No. I mean, I have to really admit that as a historian, details in this case don't make sense to me. It's what's in the primary source material, but they don't really make sense to me. And here's why. Because we know that Frederick and Marie are married and they're living in a house in Bermondsey, renting that house, but they also have rented out rooms to lodgers. Bear in mind this idea of relatively comfortable people renting out rooms. It's a sign of comfortability. And I think if you want to say that Marie is trying to propagate that image, then that having lodgers, I mean, obviously there's got to be a financial need. It just covers some of the need that they have financially. But there's also something about respectability there. I'm a landlady, that kind of a thing. So they're living in Bermondsey in Turbul area, but they have lodgers. They are also involved somehow with Patrick still. So Patrick is very much still on the scene. We don't know what Patrick knew as to what his dynamic was, but we also don't necessarily know what Frederick and Marie knew about the dynamic. So sometimes I wonder, even it seems like such a basic point. In fact, in all the Reporting on this case. Sometimes I even wonder if Patrick and Marie were involved romantically.
- [16:47]
Maddy Pelling
I was just going to say exactly the same thing. Right. Like this does kind of smack of the misogynistic press at the time, in the 19th century and the kind of sensationalism. Right. We so often find this in true crime of these marital boundaries being blurred and sort of sexual ideals of the time, sexual morals of the time being blurred and people become obsessed with it. It's not necessarily. In some ways, I think it takes over the gruesomeness of the crimes themselves that people are like, oh, you know, you can peer through the keyhole of someone else's life. You don't know if your next door neighbour's sleeping with your postman three doors down. It's just. It's that that interests people so much, I think, this insight into ordinary lives and actually how not standard they are and how people are just sort of getting on with all these complicated things in the shadows until a light is shone on them. And I think that's what we have here to a certain extent. But I do wonder if, I suppose there has to be some connection between the three people. There has to be something, but is there necessarily a sexual relationship?
- [17:44]
Anthony Delaney
Here's a potential connection that I find a little bit more compelling. You know, again, I will caveat this. All the sources tell us that she was involved with Patrick, so this is there to be said. So I'm going against the evidence, but just I'm also aware of, you know, we need to question the sources and we need to question what the motivation of those sources are. Anyway, so Frederick, the husband in this, used to work on the railways, so he has a connection to railway work. And obviously Patrick has a link to railway with his investments. So I don't know, I can't say for certain, but it's something that was. It just strikes me there's something a little bit off about this, the idea of this throuple thing. And here's the thing, it's a trope more than anything else in some of these murders. As you're saying, like this idea that there are two men fighting, jostling over a woman and she's in the middle and maybe she's manipulating both of them because she's so wanted.
- [18:36]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, she's pulling the strings. Yeah, exactly.
- [18:39]
Anthony Delaney
Whereas, you know, realistically what we have is that we know o' Connor is wealthy, we know he has an awful lot of money on him at all times because of the nature of his job. And they see an Opportunity there. That's what we definitely know. Right. So whatever about the relationship dynamics, that's a different question, I think.
- [18:57]
Maddy Pelling
I agree. I agree completely. So take me to some of the more concrete information that we do have, which is the night of the killing itself. Walk me through what actually happens and how we know about it.
- [19:09]
Anthony Delaney
Okay, so August 9th, 1849. This is the night of the murder. We have a lot of newspaper reports that come out after the fact. We have the trial record and we have a testimony of a lodger that was in the house not the night of the murder, but that was in the house in and around that kind of time afterwards. We have the Times and the Illustrated London News saying that Marie had asked o' Connor to come to their house. And this was one of the other things that went, what? That doesn't make any sense to me. And to bring his valuables to dinner. And there's an explanation potentially that this is under the guise of investing them for him or entrusting her with them for its safekeeping. That does not add up to me. It doesn't make any sense. The only thing that makes sense is they know he's collecting rents, they know he's collecting debts. That means he will finish his work day with a load of money in his pockets. Let's look at it practically. Like, why would they be handing over money to Marie and Frederick? No, he's smarter than that. It doesn't. Anyway, it's a small detail, but it just.
- [20:09]
Maddy Pelling
It's annoying, I think, but I think that's huge. Yeah. When I was reading the notes of this episode, I was like, what? That doesn't make any sense. Because if you're a wealthy person, you're carrying a lot of cash, why would you then be like, oh, at the end of my day carrying all this money, I'm gonna go to the poorest slum in London to some dodgy, you know, rented rooms run by these people who I have some kind of vague connection with. I mean, I'm wondering, actually there is some kind of corrupt connection between the two men. Right. You mentioned that they have the railways in common. Why would O'Connor be going to the Mannings house at all unless they were doing some kind of business? Because I mean, he's not going to be like, I'm going to deposit all my worldly goods in a dodgy house.
- [20:52]
Anthony Delaney
That's just not happening. Where there's loads of lodgers. No, that's just not happening.
- [20:56]
Maddy Pelling
Also, like they don't have a concrete enough connection because what if they stole that money? He can't go to court and be like, well, I was sleeping with this married woman and then she stole all my money. People aren't going to care or help him. You know, it's just, oh, there's so many unanswered. This is fascinating. There's so much that we won't know.
- [21:13]
Anthony Delaney
No, see, this is the thing, and that's why I'm finding it frustrating, is because we will not know the answer to these questions. That's the problem. But, you know, you said at the start of this, like, what do we know? So we know that when he went inside very quickly, so he did go to Miniver place, to their house. And we know that once he did go in there, he was very quickly, probably immediately shot in the back of the head by Marie specifically, and then did not die and was bludgeoned maybe up to 17 times by Frederick with a crowbar. So quite a bloody and violent intervention from Frederick. But Marie was the one who shot the gun.
- [21:49]
Maddy Pelling
Oh, Marie. I mean, if you shoot someone in the head at close quarters, just try and get it right. How is he not dead? That's grim and brutal and very sad. I wonder in that moment, Frederick bludgeoning him, if that's something they planned. Obviously we'll hear what they do next to the body. That's definitely premeditated and very much planned. But I wonder if there's panic in that moment when Frederick is like, oh, right, okay, quick, let's just bash his head in.
- [22:17]
Anthony Delaney
Essentially, you know, it's definitely planned without a shadow of a doubt because the gun is secreted behind the door, the crowbar's left just up against the wall. But 17 times sounds like a bit of chaos. You know what I mean? That they've panicked or Frederick's panicked or whatever in that moment and just gone a little bit feral in the scene, which, you know, you've just killed someone. So.
- [22:35]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. Now, I also think this is a minor point really, but I do think it's interesting, the site of the murder itself. And we've talked about this a little bit with Hallie Rubenhold. When we did A Story of a Murder, her new book, we did an interview with her about the Crippin case and about 19th century, and in that case, early 20th century, quote unquote, respectable homes, whatever they are. And in this case, you know, very much in working class home in a slum, but still. But to be murdered in the kitchen, which is, I suppose, you know, a space of domesticity, traditionally female Coded in this moment. It sort of goes against what are going to become, what are already and what are increasingly 19th century ideals of the home, of womanhood, of what it means to be a wife and how you run your household. And Marie's not exactly living up to the ideal housewife by shooting someone in the head in her kitchen, despite the.
- [23:29]
Anthony Delaney
Fact that the papers claim that that's what she was kind of aiming for. I mean, one of the most gruesome things to me was we're talking about domestic setting. And it's really key to this because after he's been killed, his body is then stripped and buried under the kitchen flagstones. So where is one of the most busy rooms in any house? The kitchen. They are going to have to pass back and forth over the grave of their murder victim every single day for the rest of their lives that they live in that house. And they had pre dug this grave for him. So when he arrived, he arrived into that kitchen seeing his own grave having been dug for him. They'd filled it with quicklime. So this is definitely, you know, you've said it already, a premeditated attack. And we know from the trial later on that a shopkeeper confirms the fact that this has been purchased, that the quicklime has been purchased. So we're talking about some of those details we're seeing in more and more of these 19th century cases where there is somewhat quasi detective work going on, where they're putting these details together in a sequence.
- [24:25]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, no, that's interesting. I mean, it's interesting about. You say that that is one of the busiest and most traversed rooms of the household. And I think that's absolutely true. I'm thinking about. And of course, I assume that this house no longer exists, so we won't really know much about its architecture. But I'm assuming in a poor part of London that this may have had rough wooden boards in the rest of the rooms and that the kitchen might have been the only thing with a stone flag floor. So it might have been the only suitable place. Or maybe it's, you know, brick. Do we know what the flooring is? Yeah, it is flagstones. Okay, so, you know, that's interesting. And also thinking about the lodgers who, by the way, must have been out this night. They were, they were. Okay, so I suppose they are going to spend time maybe in a front room, a parlour, if that exists in this house. And also their own rooms that they're renting. They're not necessarily going to go into the kitchen because Marie would be responsible for going in there and cooking any meals that they took in that household.
- [25:25]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, we shouldn't think of it as a modern house share in that everybody would be in the fridge with their things labeled no, that's not the situation. So Marie is very much going to be expected to be in control of this space. Yeah.
- [25:49]
Unknown
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- [26:50]
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- [27:19]
Maddy Pelling
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
- [27:22]
Unknown
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
- [27:25]
Maddy Pelling
Could you be more specific when it's cravenient.
- [27:27]
Unknown
Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.
- [27:36]
Maddy Pelling
I'm seeing a pattern here.
- [27:37]
Unknown
Well yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [27:38]
Maddy Pelling
Crave, which is anything from ampm.
- [27:41]
Unknown
What more could you want?
- [27:42]
Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience am PM too much good stuff.
- [27:50]
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- [28:53]
Maddy Pelling
Okay, so they've killed him in this horrible way. It was pre planned but it's become chaotic. They've stripped his body of the clothes that he's wearing and presumably the cash etc in his pockets.
- [29:06]
Anthony Delaney
Yes, but they were a little, and this is kind of interesting as well, they were disappointed to find how little he had on him. So they had an expectation of what they would find and it didn't really match up to what they thought. But key to this is that they also took the key to his house and then Marie. So this does suggest that. Well actually the newspapers say Marie, we don't know. One of the two of them went to his lodgings and then stole more valuables from his lodgings, including his railway shares by the way. But there was no sign of the big windfall of cash money that they thought they were going to get having done this. So it was a disappointing kill. In the end it wasn't quite worth the and it also says to me, you know, there's another question mark. If Marie had spent time as a lover in his house and was properly monitoring what was going on there, potentially she would have been, they would have been a little bit more successful in what they were able to garner from this or would have known exactly how much money. And it also speaks to the fact that Patrick's no fool that actually his money is sequestered away somewhere where it's supposed to be in a bank probably. And it's taken care of for reasons exactly like this.
- [30:15]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. Now it's interesting that the media reports that it's Marie that goes to the house because I think that can tell us one of two things. Either, you know, she's worked as a domestic servant before, so is she simply able to pass herself off as a servant because presumably o', Connor, he has money, he has a respectable position. Presumably he has at least one servant in his household. Right. He must have a cook, a housekeeper.
- [30:38]
Anthony Delaney
At least a come and go one. Yeah, someone's going to.
- [30:40]
Maddy Pelling
Yes, maybe a charwoman coming in. There will be someone. I would bet, given his status and the wealth that he does have, that it's a live in servant. At least one. So Marie either goes to the house under the guise of being another servant and is admitted. I know she has a key but like if there's a living servant, they're there all day, every day. So what does that interaction look like? And does that tell us that actually she is a regular in that household? Yes, that her presence isn't questioned.
- [31:08]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, that's one of the things that would act in potential favour if it is her that goes. But if it's not, why are they admitting Frederik as well? Just to rummage around the house. The fact that anybody has the opportunity to even take that much time to rummage because yeah, as you say, it's most likely he has a live in servant. But where's that servant during any of this time? Like surely they would then be later able to testify, which we know they don't. There is no domestic servant of Oconnors that testifies during the trial. So yeah, that's an interesting missing piece of the puzzle, but yet another. Because it's missing, it means invention comes into it, Right?
- [31:43]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, exactly. Because I don't buy that he doesn't have a servant. He's a single man living alone, he's not cooking his own meals.
- [31:49]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:51]
Maddy Pelling
Even so someone's doing the dusting, someone's lighting the fires. Like he's not doing that stuff. So that is another question mark in this case that really interests me. So we have them going to the house. There's not much that they can take. They are disappointed they don't find the treasures they were thinking of finding. And then in the meantime they have a dead body mouldering away under the kitchen floor. Surely people are gonna start to smell that soon.
- [32:19]
Anthony Delaney
That is one of the grimmest things for me of this. And there's plenty of grim stuff but like just I can't imagine passing over those flagstones every day.
- [32:28]
Maddy Pelling
It would take your appetite away, wouldn't it?
- [32:30]
Anthony Delaney
I just couldn't. But that's why I'm not a murderer, I suppose.
- [32:33]
Maddy Pelling
So good on me. That's the only reason you're not.
- [32:36]
Anthony Delaney
I'm like, oh my God. The guilt. No, yes, you're absolutely right. The lodger or lodgers. Again, another question mark. We don't know exactly how many lodgers there may only be, but there may be more than one. Sources vary. The press is not reliable during their telling of this case. So a lodger or lodgers become suspicious of the strange smells, but they are told, oh, it's cleaning, you don't need to worry about that, that's fine, we've just been cleaning certain things. You know, it gets dismissed basically because of certain substances that they're using during the cleaning. But one of the things that happens is that it's really well documented that now that o' Connor is missing, people that work with him are going, where's Patrick o'? Connor? What's he doing here? And it was really well known on the 9th, the night that he went to their house, that he was going to their house. So again, it cements the relationship between them somehow that it was not unusual for him to tell his work colleagues, oh, I'm going to the Mannings house for dinner this evening.
- [33:35]
Maddy Pelling
But also, if he was having an affair with Marie, why would he publicise that?
- [33:39]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, I responded with my face there and realised we're doing a podcast. And he's like, no, you're gonna have to say something, Anthony.
- [33:47]
Maddy Pelling
We will be doing the rest of this in silence.
- [33:48]
Anthony Delaney
Just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So his co workers all knew. And there is a report that one of his co workers, another Irishman, Pierce Walsh, potentially even went to the Mannings and said, here, have you seen Patrick? He said he was coming here. And the story goes in this telling that she. That Marie said to him, yeah, he was supposed to come, but he never arrived. So they already know that they're under, potentially under suspicion. So both of them go, they're like, do you know what? I'm not sticking around here. This is only going to be a problem.
- [34:21]
Maddy Pelling
This is chaos for a couple who have clearly planned this and have thought through the mode of the murder, how exactly are they going to kill this person and then what they're going to do with the body, up to the detail of getting the quick line, right? Even if there's been chaos in the moment of the killing itself, like, this is the premeditated planned thing that's been thought about calmly beforehand. And I suppose they haven't got the money from o' Connor that they wanted, but to then just leave your life, I mean, I suppose it's not like they're living a particularly extravagant life. They can walk away from a lodging house in Bermondsey and start somewhere else. But this just seems like such a strange and chaotic decision to have done this in the first place. This just seems utterly bizarre to me. And you can sort of imagine the second Irishman that you mentioned coming to the door and asking about Patrick o' Connor and Frederick, you know, maybe sort of reaching for the crowbar while they're having the conversation, thinking, shit, am I gonna have to club a EU to death as well? So it just feels like things are falling apart now. But tell me this, when they go on the run, where are they gonna go first of all, and are they going together or separately? Because given everything that we know about, everything that we've been hinting at about their relationship and the question marks around how solid that marriage is, how it works, what the boundaries are of it, I am not convinced that they're a great team.
- [35:42]
Anthony Delaney
Your lack of trust in them is well placed. They go separately, they flee separately. And it's just as well they do, because Patrick o' Connor is officially reported missing by his friend John Holmes. And this then means that the police become involved in looking into his disappearance. Obviously, they're not necessarily looking into the murder just yet, but, you know, they know something suspicious is going on here.
- [36:05]
Maddy Pelling
Side note, there's someone with a surname holmes, in a 19th century murder case. Hello, Sherlock.
- [36:13]
Anthony Delaney
So they're now officially reported missing. The police have been informed. They go to the lodging house. The Mannings are not there, but the lodgers say, actually, do you know what? There's been this weird smell in the house, and they were being a bit weird, and now they're suddenly gone. So something's not actually adding up here. So if you're a police officer, you go, I need to look into this a little bit more closely. And so they do. Two police officers go in and they have a knife on them, and they notice that the flagst looking a little uneven in a certain place.
- [36:46]
Maddy Pelling
See, that's sloppy. Put them back properly if you're gonna bury a body.
- [36:49]
Anthony Delaney
Do it properly if you're gonna do it. They have kind of pen knife things on them, and one of them bends down and sticks the knife in between the flagstones. And they don't. They shouldn't give. There should be no give there. But it does. The knife sinks into the ground, and then they notice that there are damp patches on the corner of some of those flagstones, which would indicate that it's been removed recently, and some damp has gotten either in underneath or has come up from underneath. So they're like, right, flagstones need to come up. And on the 17th of August they lead a search in the house where the flagstones come up and they discover oconnors decomposing body under the kitchen flagstones. And it has started, the body has started to decompose. But the reason they eventually find out that it is o' Connor is because they go to his dentist and we've seen this before and his dentist is able to confirm through his teeth that it is him and through his dentures actually that it is him. So it's again, this burgeoning idea of forensic science is coming into the case as well.
- [37:48]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [37:48]
Maddy Pelling
And really quite early in the 1940s. 1840s, yeah, yeah, really interesting. Okay, so the police now have a body that's pretty clear who the murderers are because they've legged it and the body was discovered under the floor of their kitchen. But how are they going to trace them? Because this is the 1840s. There's no CCTV, there's no phone signal pinging off satellites. What are they going to do? How does this work?
- [38:13]
Anthony Delaney
So they know there's been a fleeing, they know the two are God, the Mannings are gone. So what they start by doing is approaching local cab drivers in and around the area who might have taken them somewhere and eventually they happen upon the person who took Marie to London Bridge station where they then discover she left her luggage under the name Mrs. Smith and then went on to Euston Station and bought herself a first class ticket to Edinburgh. So she is trying to cover her tracks here. I think when we try to look at the mastermind behind this, I don't think it's Frederick, I think it is Marie who is going, yeah, you take me to London Bridge and then you're gonna. I'm gonna go over to Euston, that's where I'm gonna go from. Even though the luggage is at London Bridge and in that luggage, by the way, when they search it, because they still have it there, it contains 11 petticoats, not unusual. 20 stockings, not unusual. And the blood stained clothes of Patrick o'. Connor.
- [39:09]
Maddy Pelling
Right, okay, I have lots of things to say there. First of all, obviously for listeners, when we say the police were talking to cab drivers, we're talking like the hackney carriage drivers with a horse, not the London black cabs that we have today. I think you can tell that she has a little bit more brawn about her than Frederick just by the murder weapons that they choose. Right. That she, that she has a Pistol. She's. And obviously she shoots him in the head even though it doesn't work. And then Frederic's more of a blunt instrument that he's like, I'll just clobber him with a crowbar. And here again, yeah, you see her attempting to kind of COVID her tracks. She's using a fake name. The luggage is weird one. Why is it left behind? I suppose she's trying to get rid of the blood stained clothes. But why is she also getting rid of 11 petticoats and 20 stockings? Because she's not rich. 11 petticoats? I mean, first of all, would anyone of her social class have owned 11 petticoats? That seems like a lot.
- [40:02]
Anthony Delaney
You have just actually tied two parts of this case together. In my mind, they belong to the daughter of the Duchess of Sutherland. I have no proof of that. But I bet you that's why she was kicked out. No proof. I'm risking my entire reputation.
- [40:16]
Maddy Pelling
And that would be evidence of the crime. So she's getting rid of it with the evidence of the crime. Oh, my God.
- [40:23]
Anthony Delaney
It has to be that. It has to be that. We have solved a crime that we didn't even know existed. It was bound to happen.
- [40:31]
Maddy Pelling
We are now a detective agency. Write in with your historical requests. We will be solving unsolved cold cases. Oh, my God.
- [40:40]
Anthony Delaney
As you were talking there, I was like, oh, my God, she's stolen these as well. Who did she steal the petticoats from?
- [40:46]
Maddy Pelling
Why would she not take them with her?
- [40:48]
Anthony Delaney
She has to get rid of crime stuff. Crime stuff, to use technical jargon. So, yeah, so this is, you know, it's really, really obvious at this point that they know who they're looking for and so they know that they need to go to Edinburgh because that's where they know Marie has gone now.
- [41:06]
Maddy Pelling
Okay, so, well, we know that Marie's gone to Edinburgh and in a minute, tell me where Frederik's gone. But is Frederik happy with this situation?
- [41:13]
Anthony Delaney
No, she's betrayed him.
- [41:14]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, okay, she's right. Okay, so she's thoroughly betrayed him. And presumably she's taken what little money they got off. Yes, he gets Connor with her.
- [41:21]
Anthony Delaney
He has none, according to newspaper reports. And we don't believe them in all aspects, so we have to be careful about believing them in this aspect too. But according to newspaper reports, no, he has nothing. He just flees. She flees with everything. Everything.
- [41:33]
Maddy Pelling
Answer me this. If you had just been implicated in a crime and you were in central London, what station would you go to and what city in Britain would you run to?
- [41:43]
Anthony Delaney
Oh God.
- [41:44]
Maddy Pelling
Or would you try and get on a plane?
- [41:45]
Anthony Delaney
I'd just try and go to Ireland, wouldn't I?
- [41:47]
Maddy Pelling
I'd just be like, that's so predictable.
- [41:49]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, well, see, that'd be. I'd be such a shit criminal. I really would.
- [41:53]
Maddy Pelling
I'm sitting down in Dublin. Like, wait, the police are just waiting for you.
- [41:55]
Anthony Delaney
Like, mate, what's the first place you might go home? Yeah, that just goes to show how bad I. I couldn't. I couldn't. I just couldn't. Well, thankfully I couldn't. Like, this is giving me anxiety to even talk about this. I think I need to turn my fan on. I'm getting quite warm.
- [42:10]
Maddy Pelling
You just hand yourself in immediately. You'd be like, I can't be doomed. This, this is too much tension.
- [42:15]
Anthony Delaney
No, no, no. This is. I don't have room in my thing for this. No, thanks. But by now the press are already portraying her. So this is breaking to the press already. Frederick, by the way, you asked, where is he? He's in Jersey.
- [42:27]
Maddy Pelling
Okay.
- [42:27]
Anthony Delaney
I mean, maybe that's a better place to go.
- [42:29]
Maddy Pelling
I would go to an island. Not Ireland, but an island somewhere off the coast of Britain. Maybe not the Channel Islands. Right. But like, I'd go to like a Scottish island. I'd go as far away as possible. Yeah. And unexpected.
- [42:56]
Unknown
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- [43:56]
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- [44:38]
Anthony Delaney
So this is where they have kind of split up because I will say I don't know how they know he's in Jersey, but they do. They obviously track him in the same way. But the newspapers are more concerned with letting us know how they crack the Marie side of the case rather than the Frederick side of the case, which is, you know, understandable in terms of the sensationalism that we're experiencing here. Either way, he's captured in Jersey in October 1848. He was trying to get to Australia, so he was really going for it because if he'd gotten there, that would have been it. He would never have been returned. And Marie is recognized in Edinburgh, so she's actually turned in. She was recognized by a pawnbroker who she's trying to sell some of o' Connor's possessions and the police come and arrest her. So it's all very straightforward once it starts unraveling. It's very straightforward.
- [45:23]
Maddy Pelling
It's pretty quick. Come on, lads.
- [45:24]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:25]
Maddy Pelling
They are now. That speaks to the widespread power and reach of. Of visual and print media in this moment. This is 1848. At this point, even in the 18th century, I'm always amazed I'm looking at a crime at the moment for my next book. And I've been kind of so impressed by when this person goes to trial. The trial is reported almost the next day across the country. And that blows my mind that even in that period there's such quick circulation and. But this feels early to me, 1848, that an image of Frederick and Marie and question mark over what that image is based on is that people's descriptions. I mean, they're not going to have photographs.
- [46:10]
Anthony Delaney
Well, definitely not photographs, no.
- [46:12]
Maddy Pelling
But they're not going to have an artwork made of them. There won't be like a portrait hanging on their wall or anything. So I'm kind of a little bit confused by that. But the fact that that has been circulated to Edinburgh and that she is recognized from that. So it's a good enough quality image that she's recognized. That is amazing.
- [46:29]
Anthony Delaney
I wonder if it is. And we don't know, actually, let me just caveat this, but I wonder if it is that or if it's the fact that whatever has appeared in the newspapers before they're caught is. They may have these possessions that they're trying to rid themselves of.
- [46:41]
Maddy Pelling
That makes sense.
- [46:41]
Anthony Delaney
So when we come into a pawnbroker, it's like, oh, well, hold on. I read something about a watch and I read something about this. I don't know what the items were, but, you know, you can imagine that they might be that. Right, so what we do get then is they're brought back to London and. And we have a trial at the Old Bailey, of course, that runs from the 25th to the 26th of October, 1848. I'll make it short, but you can read the trial transcript, which I did yesterday online. It's just there, it's free. It is a little bit boring at times because it's so dense. And you might be surprised at how quickly it goes by because it's not very like our trials today. All the details are in there that we've discussed in this episode, and they are both found guilty and they are both sentenced to death. So we've seen in other cases, haven't we, in the 19th century, particularly in the later 19th century, where the man will be sentenced to death, but the woman won't be. But in this case, they're both sentenced to death.
- [47:34]
Maddy Pelling
Yes. And that is pretty unusual and I think speaks to the perception, whether that's kind of media created or, you know, it's just kind of seeped into the public imagination and obviously the imagination of the court as well, that Marie is monstrous in some way, that she's kind of. Of. I suppose she's transgressed feminine ideals for the time, also class ideals to a certain extent. You know, she's betrayed, possibly betrayed the daughter of a duchess and transgressed.
- [48:03]
Anthony Delaney
We're saying she had.
- [48:04]
Maddy Pelling
We're just deciding she had, you know. But if that is the case, if she's left under any kind of suspicion, that she's transgressed those boundaries between a lady's maid and a lady, and that's incredibly problematic. And also she's transgressed the boundaries of marriage and has had a relationship with someone who is of a slightly higher social class than her in terms of Patrick o', Connor, even though he's an Irish immigrant. You know, his money alone stands him apart from the kind of life that Marie and Frederic are living.
- [48:32]
Anthony Delaney
And she's an immigrant too, so they're kind of on, you know what I mean? So she had requested that the jury in her case was made up of foreigners, of immigrants, because it wasn't thought that British people could give immigrants, foreigners, a fair trial. They had to have other immigrants on the jury, but because she was married to a British citizen, they didn't grant her that. So she was tried by a jury of British men. And then we can come to the hanging, which is the 13th of November, 1849, Horsemonger's Lane Jail. And we have the notorious William Calcraft. Actually, we should do an episode on him because he's the executioner on the day. And apparently Marie turns to him and says, again, we can never fully know, there's so much invention in this trial. But apparently she turned to him and said, do murderers go to heaven, babe?
- [49:18]
Maddy Pelling
I think you know the answer to that.
- [49:20]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, well, actually, if she's Catholic, which there's a good chance that she is, then it's a case of going, well, yeah, all you have to do is be genuinely sorry. They're publicly hanged together at the jail, as I said, in Southwark, and there is a death mask made of Marie specifically, shortly after she had been cut down. And we know that this then goes on to be used as a kind of a phrenological thing. And. And, you know, the head shapes and all that kind of thing. And a huge crowd, obviously, as you can imagine, 30 to 50,000 people are thought to have attended. So this was a real spectacle. And Marie, it was thought, even influences fashion because it was said that Marie wore black satin on the day of the execution and that because of this, because of the association of black satin with her, that's why black satin went out of fashion. Whether or not that's true, you know, it's questionable, but it's said that she did.
- [50:06]
Maddy Pelling
Where was she getting a black satin dress from?
- [50:09]
Anthony Delaney
She probably stole her from year one.
- [50:11]
Maddy Pelling
Well, maybe, yeah.
- [50:12]
Anthony Delaney
It's gotta be the answer to everything from now on.
- [50:14]
Maddy Pelling
I don't buy that. I don't think she was wearing black.
- [50:15]
Anthony Delaney
Satin, but it's a little bit convenient, isn't it?
- [50:18]
Maddy Pelling
It's interesting that they're hanged together on an intimate human level, because obviously Marie has betrayed Frederick, if not in terms of having the relationship with o', Connor, certainly in terms of ditching him and going to Edinburgh by herself with the little money that they did manage to get off of Connor. So there's that. And they kind of, I guess, brought face to face face in this last moment and have to kind of reconcile or at least be faced with each other. But also a husband and wife being executed together. I think I'm right in saying that hadn't happened since about 1700. It's an unusual spectacle and you can see why it would draw such a crowd to kind of. Even with this historical hindsight, you know, there are still so many question marks over their relationship and the nature of it and who was in charge of what happened and who plotted it and who went along with it. And I think people at the time would certainly have felt that, particularly given the depiction of Marie in the press as this manipulative woman, you can see why people would want to go and kind of analyse them as a pair.
- [51:17]
Anthony Delaney
Well, you're absolutely right, because we have data to say that they were really interested in this, because broadsides that focused on Marie specifically sold about 2.5 million copies at this time. So without a shadow of a doubt, they are eating this up at the time she gets into Madame Tussauds, she's there until the 1970s. And, you know, as I said, the death mask is studied for all kinds of criminal intent there. Now, I will say this. This is an interesting case in terms of public executions because it marks the beginning of the end in many ways. But I want to just kind of outline some of the moral outrage and then just talk very briefly about that as a way to kind of of round out this episode. Dickens attends the execution in 1849, November 1849. And of course, he has a lot to say. So he says, I believe that a sight so inconceivably awful as the wickedness and levity of the immense crowd collected at that execution this morning could be imagined by no man. I do not believe that any community can prosper where such a scene of horror and demoralization as was enacted this morning outside Horsemonger Lane jail. Now, reformers are arguing against stopping public executions. They're thinking it's kind of not very polite and it doesn't fit into Victorian moral society. Nonetheless, despite the fact that Dickens is writing this, I will point out he's going to an awful lot of public executions. For somebody who is so against them, he likes to be outraged, I think, and he's complaining an awful lot. And yes, he's campaigning, so you can't take that away. But we know he is at a lot of public executions because he writes about them and it's just like, all right, Charles, we get it. Like, stop going to them, then. Like, just keep writing about them if you want to, but you don't have to keep going to every one of them. Yeah, yeah, that was interesting, I thought.
- [53:03]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, very, very interesting. And this kind of marks a real shift, doesn't it? And I think so often we come across these cases, particularly murder cases, where, you know, there's some kind of intimate domestic drama that's played out. It's gone horribly wrong. Maybe there's a couple involved, there's this question of sort of sexual scandal around them. And often they're the same. They go to trial, the trial is sensational, they're executed, there's a huge crowd. But I think with this case, it really does push, push the public conversation around, public hanging forward. And actually, we're not that far off the Capital Punishment Amendment act, are we? Which I think happens a couple of decades later where executions of criminals are made private and carried out behind the prison walls so that only officials can witness them. It seems to me from everything you said that this is one of those cases that does contribute towards that.
- [53:52]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's nearly a 20 year gap. So yes, it's definitely contributing to the conversation. So it does take a little bit of time. I hadn't heard of it, whereas you hear of an awful lot of other 19th century crimes of this type. But I think one of the reasons why it maybe hasn't endured in the public imagination in the same way as some of the other crimes is that there are so many questions, so many narrative plot holes, so many issues around some of the details. Yes, we know the murder happened. We have those details and they are, you know, they're vital and they're interesting and they tell us an awful lot about crime, about the recording of crime, about gender expectations, all of those things. Things. But there is so much more to this case that I wish we could find out, but that we will never, ever know. But that in itself means that this is just as captivating as some of the better known stories. And with that, Maddie Pelling, say goodbye to the people.
- [54:40]
Maddy Pelling
Goodbye to the people.
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Maddy Pelling
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Maddy Pelling
It's on prime. Oh, what you eating?
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Maddy Pelling
That sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?
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Maddy Pelling
Not even a little.
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Maddy Pelling
What if.
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