Were the Princes in the Tower murdered?

Summary

AFTER DARK: MYTHS, MISDEEDS & THE PARANORMAL
Episode Title: Were the Princes in the Tower murdered?
Host: Anthony Delaney
Co-Host: Eleanor Janega
Guests: Matt Lewis (voice note segment), references to researcher Phoebe
Date: March 19, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives deep into one of history’s most chilling mysteries: the fate of Edward V and his brother Richard of York, popularly remembered as “the Princes in the Tower.” Anthony and Eleanor embark on a lively, irreverent, and historically grounded tour through the theories, propaganda, and the real, tragic context of these vanished heirs. Was it murder? Misadventure? A successful escape? Or a case of Tudor propaganda outshining the truth?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Who Were the Princes?

[02:03–04:45]

• Edward V (12 years old) and his younger brother Richard of York (9) entered the Tower of London after their father, Edward IV, died in April 1483.
• The Tower was both a palace and a prison, but by the late medieval period, it primarily held high-profile captives.
• Edward was technically already king, though uncrowned; Richard III, their uncle, stepped in as Protector.
• “If you call them the princes in the tower then... it's just like you're agreeing that he oughtn't to have been king.” – Eleanor [05:30]

The Tower’s Purpose, Royal Intrigue, and Power Vacuums

[06:00–13:07]

• Originally a symbol of Norman power, the Tower became a place for royal processions before coronation.
• After Edward IV’s death, Richard III delayed Edward V’s coronation, eventually becoming king himself in July, while the princes vanished.
• “England is a unique place in that the king is always getting killed and all kinds of weird things are happening... England's just wild.” – Eleanor [11:12]

Disappearance and Early Investigations

[15:06–16:24]

• The last sighting of the princes in the late spring of 1483.
• Debate about their treatment and whether they were still alive or safe.
• Ongoing fascination, with research projects and calls for DNA testing on bones possibly belonging to the princes.

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Major Theories Explored

Theory 1: Richard III Did It

[26:33–35:27]

• Richard III commonly blamed, often depicted in Shakespearean and Tudor propaganda as the villain.
• Thomas More’s early 16th-century history accused Richard directly:
  • “About midnight, the silly children... bundled them up among the bedcloth... pressing pillows hard onto their mouths... their innocent souls into the joys of heaven.” – Read by Anthony [32:15]
• Names like Miles Forest, John Dighton, and Sir James Tyrell come from these later sources, often confessions likely obtained under duress.
• “Kings don't know how to do anything for themselves... This is not an individual who’s used to getting his hands dirty.” – Eleanor [27:13]

Notable Quote

• “If Richard was going to kill them, he had to tell everyone they were dead to prevent them from being a threat to his throne. Otherwise, he killed them for no gain at all.” – Matt Lewis [41:04]

Theory 2: Someone Else Did It

[35:46–39:26]

• Alternative suspects:

  • Margaret Beaufort (Henry VII’s mother) suggested as a possible mastermind, partly popularized by recent fiction. Dismissed as "just a vibe," lacking contemporary evidence. [36:54]
  • Duke of Buckingham (Henry Stafford): Possible double-cross but lacks substantial proof and conveniently killed shortly after the events.

• “This is a very new theory. It’s kind of fun... like, women can murder princes too. The girl bossification of history.” – Eleanor [37:15]

Theory 3: They Survived – The "Pretenders"

[39:57–46:22]

• Matt Lewis vocalizes his support for this version (voice note [40:14–42:14]). He argues the boys may have survived and later returned as “Lambert Simnel” and “Perkin Warbeck,” pretending to be royalty in uprisings against the Tudors.

  • Matt's case: No direct evidence of death, European powers later recognized Warbeck as a royal contender.
  • “There’s plenty of evidence to at least suggest their continued existence beyond 1485. There's no actual evidence of deaths.” – Matt Lewis [41:19]

• Eleanor and Anthony critically evaluate:

  • Simnel never claimed to be Edward V.
  • Perkin Warbeck claimed to be Richard of York, but had no contemporary support he was truly royal.
  • Uprisings against Tudors were common, sometimes with popular or opportunistic leaders, not necessarily lost princes.
  • “...if everything is fine and these kids grew up to be, you know, leaders of varying rebellions, etc.... why are we smuggling? Like, you would just be like, okay, yeah, there they are.” – Eleanor [59:27]

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The Skeletons: Physical Evidence?

[52:06–56:56]

• Set 1: Tower of London (found 1647, reviewed 1933)

  • Two child skeletons discovered during renovations, later given royal burial at Westminster Abbey by Charles II to boost royal prestige.
  • Tests from 1933 suggest correct age, but no DNA testing has been allowed yet.

• Set 2: St. George’s Chapel, Windsor (found 1789)

  • Two unidentified child skeletons found in the tomb of Edward IV, the princes’ father.
  • Royal family reluctant to allow further investigation or DNA analysis.

• “For the price of a tomb, you can get all of this... it adds up narratively. It makes sense. We found the skeleton of two children down some stairs in the tower. Who else could it be?” – Anthony [54:34]

• Both hosts eventually find the Windsor skeletons more compelling: “It’s weirder. Like, who are these kids buried in with their dad? It’s odd.” – Eleanor [58:08]

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Reflections on Mother’s Actions

[49:19–51:38]

• Edward IV’s widow sent her daughters to Richard III after her sons disappeared.
• Some argue this suggests she didn’t blame Richard; others see it as a practical move for their survival and advantageous marriages.
• “The best you can say about any king is that they’re dead.” – Eleanor [50:27]

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Final Theories & Conclusions

[58:19–64:49]

• Eleanor: The simplest answer is the princes died in the Tower, likely from neglect, mistreatment, or possibly outright murder. No need for elaborate escape plots.
  • “When I babysit my nieces and nephews, no one is like, damn, we better get those kids away from Eleanor right now... Why do we even need to think to do that?” [58:48]
  • Also: “I think that fundamentally the position of royalty is a violent one... all kings are terrible people.” [63:24]
• Anthony agrees, finding the presence of two children’s skeletons in Edward IV's tomb highly compelling.
• Both stress that whomever was responsible, or if it was just neglect, does not make Richard III alone a “worse” king than others.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “England is a unique place in that the king is always getting killed and all kinds of weird things are happening... England's just wild.” – Eleanor [11:12]
• (On Tudor propaganda): “Love Shakespeare, hate the Tudors. Simple as.” – Eleanor [19:14]
• “I think the only way we’re really gonna get closure on this would be if we do DNA analysis on either of these skeletons and it comes up conclusively...” – Eleanor [64:49]
• “All kings are bastards. I don’t want to know about them or care about them and I don’t feel the need to stick up for them... They’re fine.” – Eleanor [67:37]
• “Here we are, 2026, and they are headline news still, in the same way that this is happening in the 15th century.” – Anthony [65:51]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:03] – Setting the scene: the princes’ final days
• [11:00] – Instability and urgency in royal succession
• [16:05] – Modern fascination: DNA debates, missing prince projects
• [26:33] – Theory: Richard III as murderer
• [35:46] – Other possible murderers (Margaret Beaufort, Buckingham)
• [39:57] – Theory: the princes survived
• [41:04] – Matt Lewis presents the survival theory
• [52:06] – The skeletons: physical evidence & royal refusal to test
• [58:19] – Hosts' conclusions: neglect, death, and royal violence
• [63:24] – Broader reflections on monarchy and violence

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Final Takeaways

• Likeliest outcome: The princes died in the Tower—how remains uncertain, but probably due to neglect, poor conditions, or political motives. The presence of two unidentified children’s skeletons in their father’s tomb is a compelling piece of circumstantial evidence.
• No theory is fully provable without modern DNA testing, which is blocked by ethical and royal concerns.
• Historical context matters: Myths persist due to Tudor propaganda, Victorian romanticization, and Shakespeare.
• Hosts’ overall stance: All monarchs are complicit in violence; the princes’ tragic fate reflects the dangers and machinations of royal power at the close of the medieval era—not a unique horror, but a very prominent one.

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For further reading and listening:

• Check out Matt Lewis’s Gone Medieval episode “The Survival of the Princes in the Tower.”
• Look up the “Missing Princes Project” by Philippa Langley.
• Visit the Tower of London and St. George’s Chapel (if you’re feeling ghoulish for context).

Contact & Social:

• [e-mail]
• Socials: Anthony Delaneyhistory; Dr. Eleanor Janega

5-star reviews and listener mail encouraged.

Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

Looking for more shady and sinister stories? Sign up to History Hit. You can join us to explore the tragic life of the Brontes or discover the chilling story of Burke and Hare. Plus, with your History Hit subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe to start exploring the past.

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[Eleanor Jaenega]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Eleanor Jaenega]

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[Anthony Delaney]

Two boys are on their way to bed in the Tower of London. They hold hands as they make their way up a spiral staircase. A sound makes them jump and look back together in fright. But nothing is there. Not yet. And yet they have been stalked by growing unease in recent weeks, have felt the walls closing in, the windows darkening. These two boys, these princes of England, are in trouble. Very soon they will have vanished into the Tower's stone walls. Their clothes, their belongings, everything will disappear without a trace. This is history's greatest Cole case. What happened to the two princes who disappeared in the tower? The 12 year old Edward V and his 9 year old brother Richard of York were taken to the Tower of London to await Edward's coronation after his father's death. Next thing, the princes are gone, just disappeared. And their uncle Richard is suddenly crowned King Richard III in their place. But did Richard kill them? Did somebody else? Did they flee and live long lives abroad and then return to England for vengeance? For centuries, historians have fiercely debated their fate. Today, here on After Dark, we will solve the mystery of what happened to the princes in the tower. Hello there and welcome back to After Dark. I'm Anthony.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And I'm Eleanor.

[Anthony Delaney]

And today we are going to be solving. Yes, solving Eleanor. We're going to be solving one of medieval history's biggest myths or controversies or debates. And. Well, first of all, I'm gonna let you describe what it is we're gonna be solving. But this, we have people in different camps on this particular episode, people even on the history hit team in different camps. And we're gonna. Obviously we're hosting this, but you're also gonna hear from our brilliant colleague Matt Lewis, who is also your co host on Gone Medieval. And Phoebe, who is our researcher on After Dark. Phoe has also had some stakes in this. She works at the Tower of London when she's not researching for us. So we're gonna be hearing a few different opinions and viewpoints on this, and then we will make the definitive conclusion. You don't need to look any further for your outcome of this particular mystery. Tell us what the mystery is, Eleanor.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay, today we are talking about the princes in the tower. Now I hear you cry in your soul, Anthony.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, go on.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Which princes in which tower?

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, now I'm gonna say this as well. Am I being pedantic here? Am I missing something? This could be very me, actually, now that I'm saying this out loud for the first time, there weren't princes in the tower, technically, well, potentially, there was a king and a prince.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That's correct.

[Anthony Delaney]

So whoever. The Victorians, right, Did they package this?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, it's sentimentality is what that is, you know, and fundamentally, if you call them the princes in the tow than the entire thing. It's just like you're agreeing that he oughtn't to have been king. That's my point. Yeah, that's my point.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, we're gonna delve into all of this, but do answer your own question, because which princess? Which tower?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay, so you've already slightly answered the question because our wonderful researcher Phoebe works at the Tower of London. We're talking about the Tower of London, Right. Oh, yeah, you love her. I love her.

[Anthony Delaney]

I've given that away already.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Wow. Listen, we simply love to see her. She has been around for quite some time. By the time we princes getting into her. She was originally built by William the Conqueror when he arrived in London, because it turns out people didn't really like the Normans had just taken over.

[Anthony Delaney]

They're going to bolt hole themselves in safety.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, basically. So it's like you have to have a big castle so that you can go out and take on any rebellious townspeople as and when and also intimidate them a little bit.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

At various points in its life, it is a palace where the kings do live. But by the time we are creeping up to the end of the medieval, it's more like a jail because we're

[Anthony Delaney]

right on the verge of Tudor land here. Right.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That is right. So we are just getting into the early modern period. A lot of other castles have been built in the meantime that are more luxurious, more comfortable. When the king is in London, he's usually staying in houses as opposed to in the tower, because by this point in time, it's not so much of a worry that the Angles will rise against him. You know, these sorts of things. And you use it more for high profile captives. Warden, it's not like a prison for like Bob who stole a sheep.

[Anthony Delaney]

Bob, he needs to leave a sheep alone. And actually, you know, they don't come much more high profile than the heir to the throne and the spare.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That's right. And that's who we're dealing with here. So we've got technically Edward V. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Not a prince, if you, if you follow the line of inherited monarchy.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly. So he's 12. Right. And he's there with his little brother. And his little brother is Richard of York, who is nine.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And what has happened at this point is their dad, who is Edward IV dies.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

He dies in April 1483. He is 40 years old. Which is not a good innings.

[Anthony Delaney]

No. Even for. People have this misconception. Right. That it's like, well, they lived to be 23. That was great for the day. That's not really how that was working.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No. In average age, I hasten to remind everyone, the way that you get average age is you, you take all the ages. Yeah. And you put them together and then you divide by it. And at this point in time, and indeed up until we invent vaccines, infant mortality. So everybody, everybody usually dies. You get 50% of all children die before the age of two.

[Anthony Delaney]

So this is dragging that down.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So it drags it Right down. So it drags it right down. So people tend to live usually into their 60s, oftentimes further.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. Yeah. And you will hear people in their 80s, in their 90s. Oh, yeah. It's not usual to be living into your 90s in the late medieval, early modern period, but it's not unheard of at the same time.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. Everybody knows somebody.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, exactly.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's not that word. So 40, that's not a good innings being cut short. Yeah, yeah. So, like, that's unfortunate because this creates a power vacuum. Right. Just in the way that 40 is not a good innings. 12 isn't a great age for a

[Anthony Delaney]

kid to be reigning.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No, no.

[Anthony Delaney]

So we're going to need some form, then, based on my bit of knowledge about the early modern kingship, we're going to need some form of a protectorate. I'm imagining.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yes, that's okay. And so into that gap steps their beloved Uncle Richard, who we will know

[Anthony Delaney]

probably best as Richard iii.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That is. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. My Richards get a bit shaky sometimes, but yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And he's like, my lovely lads. My two little nephews. What better place to keep you both safe? Safe before the inevitable coronation of Edward V, but in the Tower of London.

[Anthony Delaney]

And we.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So for real.

[Anthony Delaney]

But of course, they're 12, so they're gonna be like, okay, yeah. But here's the thing. If in. I think this is really important to remember, right, because we've spoken about this. They're not both princes in this line of succession business, Edward V now has automatically, the moment his father took his last breath and his heart stopped beating, even without the coronation, he has become the king. But there is a solemnization.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Correct.

[Anthony Delaney]

That has to come with that through the coronation. So in order to make that official, the oils have to be placed on him in strategic places and all that kind of thing. So, yes, he has passed one threshold of kingship, but the holy, the divine element of this kingship has not yet occurred. When Richard says, we're going to the Tower boys.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly. And I know now that seems very silly to us, but it is very serious to them at the time. You have to have the anointing, you have to have God recognize it or it hasn't happened.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's not real.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we do need this coronation to take place. So originally, this coronation is meant to take place on the 4th of May.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

1483.

[Anthony Delaney]

When does dad die?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Dad died in April. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, you know, that's quick. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, it's ordinary to

[Eleanor Jaenega]

do that because you need a King.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And you need it to be solemnized.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's like you just got to like going, you have to. The thing about monarchy is that it has to perpetuate itself lest vacuums occur. So you need to say who is going to be in charge. Yeah. England is a unique place in that the king is always getting killed and all kinds of weird things are happening that usually doesn't happen in other countries. But England's just wild.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like that. So listen, this is a country that has lived through the anarchy. This is a country that has very recently gone through some civil wars. You know, there's been some light takeovers by certain queens and things like that. So we do see basically the line of succession get messed with occasionally. So it's very, very important in an English context to get this done as quickly as possible. So we're supposed to have it on the 4th of May and then Richard is like, listen, May she May. What about like, I don't know, I'm just feeling really good about like the 22nd of June.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

What about the 22nd of June?

[Anthony Delaney]

We're near some, we're on the verge of better weather. Just the gold's going to look shinier.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

We'll have a garden party. It's going be great. But then it's funny because then like that just doesn't happen.

[Anthony Delaney]

No. Perfect. Good job.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's wild that that doesn't happen. And instead Richard III is crowned king in July and ue le prince.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, well. And such as the age old question. But now we have this, this man who was not next in line. But, but, but I do think that's really important what you're saying about the, the idea that this line of inheritance that is supposed to be unfolding for the last few iterations hasn't necessarily gone how it should have gone. Anyway.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So in some ways we're in usual territory. Despite the fact that in the long span it's quite unusual that this is happening.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it is unusual. Anywhere else in Europe. Anywhere else in Europe everyone would be like, what are you talking about? In England it's like, yeah, I don't know, things got really crazy for a while and we made some different decisions. Now usually military force is involved in that.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

But I hasten to add that for example, with the anarchy, when we have a disputed king, essentially he gets there, Steven gets there by just getting crowned first. Stephen's back, Steven's back, back again. Oh my God. Oh, cut that out. Don't let anyone know. I'M making Eminem references in the year of our six.

[Anthony Delaney]

I did it already.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Ok. Okay. All right.

[Anthony Delaney]

My seven year old nephew loves Eminem, by the way.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Oh, God bless.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's really strange.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, the kids, you know, the alts are back.

[Anthony Delaney]

I don't know how that has happened.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

You've seen the low rise jeans.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's happening. I have.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yes, it's happening. But so when Steven gets to be king, it's because he got the coronation first. And ultimately two things can be true. You're supposed to become king if you're the eldest son of a king and you're alive. That's true. But also whoever gets their first wins

[Anthony Delaney]

because God has designed that that person. Even if it's not the bloodline. God has said it's him.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yep.

[Anthony Delaney]

And it's very often a him. Most people.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I'm going to be so for real with you. That is correct. Yeah. Like so. You know, it's weird for anywhere else but not so much for England. Right, right.

[Anthony Delaney]

So we have Ricky 2. No, he's Ricky III.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Pretty Ricky.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right. Keep it in. It doesn't matter. We have Ricky III on, not Rocky iii. Ricky III on the throne. And he has Wease. Um, all the Ricardians will be very sad that I used the word weasel. I'm sorry but you know, I'm just using it for narrative effect. So. So that's one of the people that is now in place. What has happened to the other two co stars? Our former king slash prince.

[Matt Lewis]

Wow.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

End of episode. Thank you for watching.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Basically like where, where are they? Where is the.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Where are they right now?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

We don't know.

[Anthony Delaney]

They should be in the tower.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

They should be in the tower. Last anybody heard they were in the tower. Yeah. The last time they are seen.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Is in the kind of late spring of 1480.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now is anybody asking where they are?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, good.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Some people are missing children. Like where did. Where those kids go?

[Anthony Delaney]

Remember those two?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Where do those guys go?

[Anthony Delaney]

You know, anybody see Edward and your man? What's the other fellow's name?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And you know we're still asking this question. A lot of people are still looking in, into this. There's a lot of ongoing investigation, of course, my darling Matt Lewis, my co host has for history hit done a really great episode that is called the Survival of the Princes in the Tower. You've got Philippa Langley very famously heading up the missing princes project. You've got people around the shop looking for them.

[Anthony Delaney]

Still looking for them now like in really active Terms.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, people are sometimes digging up skeletons in the tower. You know, there are debates about whether or not some bones that we think might be the princess should be DNA tested. You know, this is a hot topic.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Still. And It's a Channel 4 documentary. If we were able to do this one, that's gonna be. More cameras are gonna be on that. You know, if that DNA testing ever happens, you can be sure there's a documentary crew that's going to be there watching us completely. You have. It's a tragic tale. Right. It's like children have died. Or if you don't believe they have, maybe they haven't. But in terms of that haunting, they need to be dead. Haunt. So in that strain of thinking, they're there and they're children and it's all very tragic. And so tragedy manifests itself in haunting. And, you know, it makes sense in that. In that context. But do we know anything about those final. Well, they've disappeared. Sure. Okay. We can say that with confidence. But what were they doing before they disappeared? How are their lives unfolding? Were they being treated as. Was Edward being treated as the heir at that point? What's the story? Do we know?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So, kind of. But the trouble that we have with this entire story is there are camps on either side that feel incredibly strongly about this. And also a lot of what we tend to hear happens afterwards. So it'll be people who are reporting at a remove of decades. And oftentimes also, the way people talk about this is in a particularly politicized context. So the way that most people come to know the story or anything about Richard III is usually via Shakespeare.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll have an insight through that. Right, yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And Shakespeare obviously is writing for the Tudor court very specifically, and so he's writing plays that are going to delight the Tudors and what justifies them being on the throne but the fact that Richard III was very naughty man indeed and he deserved to be overthrown. Yes, essentially. So we do have ideas about what was going on at the time, but they mostly sort of come from later

[Anthony Delaney]

shooter propaganda type sources.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly.

[Anthony Delaney]

Would you say? I know this is a small bit of a tangent, but I think it's probably worth exploring. Would you say that one of the reasons this particular story or history persists is because of Shakespeare's intervention? I mean, you know, it's compelling in itself, but then it has this. A version of it includes stage life with this and then Shakespeare. So it's a pretty big deal, I

[Eleanor Jaenega]

think so Yeah, I think that we really can't discount that. And I think that also, you know, we've got him to blame for the way that people just want to kiss and make out with. The Tudors all the time too, are like some of the most uniquely awful people in history, it really has to be said. So there is this kind of reification and lionization of the Tudors from this period that is directly linked to Shakespeare. And now like, I'm like, love Shakespeare, hate the Tudors. Simple S. Do you know what?

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm not even a big fan of Shakespeare anymore. Wow. I used to be. I used to be. But I'll tell you what happens to me after a while. If somebody. I'm like this in the 18th century with Horace Walpole, for instance, if somebody gets all the headlines from a particular era, I really, my brain just starts to sideline them a little bit.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay, so you're like a Marlow guy now.

[Anthony Delaney]

Where am I? Yeah, like, just because it's like the underdog is a little bit more appealing or the lesser known.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

You're just trying to be cool. What about Twelfth Night, dog?

[Anthony Delaney]

What about Twelfth Night? I was trying to be cool. Is this what would be happening in my life?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, like, listen. Yeah, all the cool.

[Anthony Delaney]

I've gone all the wrong ways about this. I have a description here from an Italian diplomat called Manicci. Am I saying that right?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Manici?

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure, why not? And it is about the disappearance of the prince in the tower. And he is saying, and these are his translated words, obviously the two princes were shut up in the Tower of London. Again, this is retrospectively applied. And day by day began to be seen more rarely behind the bars and windows. Is that a. Is that a dubious description? Yeah, I'm suspicious of that. Just the bars and windows thing. Anyway, until at length they ceased to appear altogether. Now there's probably elements of truth there, right? Already there is a suspicion that they have been done away with. The elder prince, Slash, almost king, as I have learned from those who knew him, was afraid that he would be murdered and kept repeating his confession daily thinking death was at hand. I mean, it's very evocative. These. That's a 12 year old boy you're talking about there.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

And you're pulling on hard strings because a scared child is a. You know, that's like, we're not monsters, right?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And okay, so what I would say here is it isn't weird. First of all, it's not weird that the princes are in the tower. You usually go to the tower when you are getting ready for your coronation.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, right.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like, listen, this is what the Normans do. You go and you are very particularly saying that you are a part of this unbroken succession of kings, even if it's very much like it's done been broke a couple times already. But you go to the tower first, you prep and then you go over to Westminster Abbey. There's a big procession through London. You go to Westminster Abbey, say the magic words, bada bing, bada boom.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're the king and the magic words are bada bing, bada boom.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

From what I remember.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

God goes, and then you're done.

[Anthony Delaney]

He's our guy.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

But it is weird that this whole thing just becomes very truncated. It's like, well, where are the princes? They are being kept very particularly in a tower at the time which is called the Garden Tower, that kind of looks over the White Tower. We call it the Bloody Tower now.

[Anthony Delaney]

And is it because of this that we call it the Bloody Tower?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Partially. This is also where, like a lot of condemned people will then be sent. Not that the princes are condemned in any sense.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Is it true to say at this point? Because we know that there was decent accommodation at the tower for higher class. You know, I'm not saying, like, not overly luxurious, but twas okay if it needed to be. Is it the same at this moment in time?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen. Probably, probably. The Garden Tower is nicer than what most people in London are living.

[Anthony Delaney]

There you go. See? Yeah, yeah. It's not a palace, but yeah, we're good.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It'll be fine. It's got a roof.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

There's a fireplace. Yeah, you'll be. Yeah, it's okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

You've got some food coming into you here and there. I also have the very famous, of course. Image that is way, way, way later. 1878.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

The Victorians, they love it.

[Anthony Delaney]

The Victorians. Look at that hair. That is very Hoxton hair now. Is it it?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I love their little black outfit.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know. So do I. Is that supposed to symbolize mourning? I'm sure it is.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, it is. It's like because their dad just died.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And that's the other thing to keep in mind. Like, it's gotta be like, you know, again, this is a 12 year old. Right. And your dad just died. And now it is alleged that you're also in fear for your life.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That's a lot for a kid.

[Anthony Delaney]

And he has a lovely bevel.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I know.

[Anthony Delaney]

On that step. And the lovely blowout hairdo.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I know, I wish.

[Anthony Delaney]

And they're holding hands. And they're kind of. I mean, they're where they absolutely probably never would have been, which is. These are the two boys, obviously, we're talking about. They're standing on a stairway that's curving up into an unseen. Now, it's very reminiscent of what you would find in that kind of a structure. But the boys are not hanging out on that staircase.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No, listen to me. Also, if you go and you visit the Bloody Tower now, which everyone should do. Oh, I just love the Tower of London. But the staircase is really tiny.

[Anthony Delaney]

You know, it looks so big there.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like on. Granted, this is like tall people problems, but every time I go up those staircases, I have to, like, put my hand on them so I don't bonk my noggin.

[Anthony Delaney]

And how tall are you?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Six' one.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're taller than me. I'm six. Same height as Jesus. That's what my granddad just said.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Just, you know, listen to me. That's how we make a min. Kilkenny. All right?

[Anthony Delaney]

So, yeah, actually, people are quite short

[Eleanor Jaenega]

in Kenny generally, like, but in my family.

[Anthony Delaney]

Not in my family. Yeah,

[Eleanor Jaenega]

foreign.

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[Anthony Delaney]

Right. So we don't know what happened to them, but people have theories and so now we're moving into the theories part of what happened to these two little boys. The first one. One. It was Richard who done it.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. Grow up.

[Anthony Delaney]

No. You're saying no, listen to me.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

This is a, this is a busy man.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

He's got things to do.

[Anthony Delaney]

Can I just ask, when they say that it was Richard who, Donna, do they literally mean Richard's own hand?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like a lot of people say that. Yeah. Like there, there will be like things where it's like, oh yeah, he went in there and he knifed him or he smothered them or whatever. And what, what are you? Kings? Barely. Like, they don't know how to cook.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

G. Like, like kings don't know how to do anything for themselves. And granted he's, he's not a king, but he was a duke. You know, this is not an individual who's used to getting his hands dirty.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And I mean, I suppose within this you could say, well, he really wants to do away with the princess. Okay. Like I can see, I can see that. And like this is like the best way to keep it down.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

But like, like also by the time you've done away with them. Who care.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Like, does it really. And actually in some ways the fact that it was done at the hand of the king who is now on the throne kind of legitimizes you being there, despite the fact that it's quite gruesome and everything. But such is the struggle for a throne. I suppose if you were to look at, I mean, again, that's, I'm just using that as an argument because this is obviously a 12 year old boy that we're talking about. And even in the context of, you know, childhood is not exactly understood in the same ways as we understand childhood today. But 12 year old boy is still seen in terms of being a child. Right. That's why they would have needed a protectorate in order to, if he had been crowned. So we have then this idea that Richard killed him. You've hinted at this already, but let's drill down into it a little bit. More why? Why is that a useful theory to be out there?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, it explains why Richard becomes king, which is really weird. There's absolutely no reason that he should have become king. Really.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Now also, we have this theory crop up kind of almost right away. So we have a narrative written by a guy called Thomas Moore.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, I've heard of him.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

You may have heard of him. You may have heard of him.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now we're into the tutors.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

But he writes a history of Richard iii in the 16th century. So it's like from 1513 to 1518. And he's like, richard killed those kids.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And that's where it's. It's spoken aloud. So we have the Italian going, I'm really worried about these kids. They're really scared. And we're seeing less and less of them. That certainly is true. Right. But the first person to ever kind of speak it forth into the world is Thomas Moore.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, I didn't know that. He's the first person to put those in England. Right. To put those bits together to go, here's your complete narrative that you might have been missing some of the details, but actually, I can fill in the blanks.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. Because the rest of it is kind of gossip.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So we've heard from the Italian. It's also true that the Spanish Spanish are gossiping about this. So Diego de Varra, he is the Spanish ambassador to the English crown. And he writes back in 1486 and he's like, yeah, Richard killed those kids. Right. Like, so people are gossiping.

[Anthony Delaney]

And 1486 is important. Right. Because by remind, this is me delving back into my mind a little bit now. 1485 is the start of the Tudors on the throne. Am I right? So. So it's still starting to link this idea of that murder by Richard to the Tudors. For the Tudor's benef, it's still within that timeframe. Even though it's quite quick after their disappearance and after Richard comes to the throne, it's still. If we're using that as a timeframe, we're now into the Tudors.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, absolutely. And listen, this is when it gets all twisted because you've got Shakespeare. We've already talked about it during this. Like, much is made of the fact that Richard iii, according to them, is a hunchback. We do know that he had a spinal problem when we found his body. That checks out, but it's like, not all of that. And you gotta understand that for medieval and early modern people, you bring up things like this in Order to discredit people, to say that they're evil. There's this idea that beauty means that one is aligned with God. Right. So, like, you know, anyone who is, like, beautiful, it's because God just loves it.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a perfection thing.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly.

[Anthony Delaney]

I mean, we still have it today. In some ways. We don't link it to God so much, but.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, it does.

[Anthony Delaney]

Equal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Right. So there's this idea that, like, he is uniquely unvirtuous by dint of having a spinal problem. And because that is socially how things work at the time, that's kind of believable.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

It feeds into their belief system. And you've pointed this out a couple of times when we've been lingering in the medieval era while you've been in. Eleanor and I really love this. About how easy it is for us to dismiss those things as. Well, that's clearly bullshit. Or that. That God. How horrendous is that? And this doesn't. This. This goes against everything we know and our values. But. But in terms of their value system, we cannot underestimate how much sense that would have made for them. And I think that's important for us to bear in mind.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. It is really one of those things where it's difficult. We can't see air because it surrounds us. Right. It's very difficult to understand that you're within a culture. When you're within it, you think that's just how things are.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

We're not questioning this at this particular moment.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly.

[Anthony Delaney]

Not only does he say that Richard is responsible. Thomas Moore. I'm talking about here. Not only does he say that Richard is responsible, actually gives a description of the murder. So where he's gotten this from now? God, we have names. I'm just saying them. Okay, I'll read it out and you can tell us how much to ignore.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

Miles Forrest and John Dighton, I'm assuming. Yeah, sure. D, I G H, T O N.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, don't ask me how to pronounce English names. I have no idea what's happening.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I'm Irish. We all have excuses. About midnight, the silly children. Oh, the silly children lying in their beds, came into the prince's chamber and suddenly bundled them up among the bedcloth, be wrapped and entangled them, pinning them down by force into the feather bed and pressing pillows hard onto their mouths. That within a while, smoored and stifled. I presume that's some kind of relation to smothered, right? Yeah. Their breath failing, they gave up to God their innocent souls into the joys of heaven, leaving to the tormentors their bodies dead bed. In the bed drama.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, very dramatic. Yeah, very dramatic and also like somewhat believable. So within this we've got like Rich on Richard's orders. Right. And also it's been alleged, the reason we have kind of like names, right, yeah. That like some people eventually confess to killing this. So interesting point here. Right. Like we've got these named names in Thomas.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. I'm surprised to see this.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

We got this Miles Forest, we've got this John Dighton, but we've got another guy, completely different guy, Sir James Tyrell. And he's like, yo, I killed a couple. Some princes may have been murdered by.

[Anthony Delaney]

Under his instruction.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, basically. Yeah. Okay, so that.

[Anthony Delaney]

When is that. Do we know when that confession happens? Is it during the tutors again?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Bingo. Yeah. So it's like. Again, this is just sort of like it's all shaping up the way the Tudors need it to shape up, up, you know, and like quite why one would confess, like perhaps under some duress.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, yes, you. Or to just gain favor to align themselves more closely with Henry vii, like all of the above. But it's there. We have a. We do actually have a confession then.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, we do. And I think that it is interesting and worth considering because there is.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is one we can never know necessarily.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

We don't know how exactly or why. You know, like there. There are reasons that people do things. Could he just be literally in terror for his immortal soul? Yeah. Yes, 100%.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's just as legit as anything else. Right.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And like literally the way that you're supposed to deal with things, if you've murdered someone, one of the big things that priests will say to you if you want, like any chance of absolution, is that you have to go confess. You have to confess and take on whatever it is you're going to have to face. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

And is it him that names Miles Forest and John Dighton?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

This is an interesting one because, yeah, he's the one who points the finger. So this is the exact opposite of who will rid me of this meddling priest. Right. This is like, hey, Miles and John, what's happening, guys? Can I get you to do some light regicide? So, yeah, he's naming names. This is how we get these names.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. I mean, it's something in a piece of history that we feel like we have nothing. It's something at the very least. And as you say, it's worth kind of considering. I'm going to move on to the next theory. Theory two, and that is apparently that somebody else killed them. Who? And might that somebody else be Eleanor? And why?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay, so one of the big names that we get in this is Margaret Boat for. Okay, big one.

[Anthony Delaney]

Big one.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So she's Henry VII's mom.

[Anthony Delaney]

She is.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And the idea here is that maybe she wanted people to not, like, Richard.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. Well, yeah, because, like, it benefits the cheaters.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, exactly. It's like she's trying to make this claim for, like, this obscure branch of the family, like, from Wales.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Please calm down. You know, like. And she's trying to be like, oh, I think

[Anthony Delaney]

this is her exact voice.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So, like. So basically the idea here is that somebody else has done it to make Richard III look bad, right. So that everyone will go, damn, bro, you sure did kill your nephews. Oh, right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Right. And so, like, now, here's the thing about it. We don't have any evidence from the time for this. No, this is just like a vibe. This is a vibe, and it's partially a vibe based off of Philippo Gregory's fiction. Fiction.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right. So this is. So then that. That must mean it's relatively recently taken on real legs, then. I'm sure there was probably snippets of it around because potentially those rumors informed Philippa when she was researching and writing that piece of fiction. But now it's taken a bit more mainstream, maybe. Or.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, I love it. It's quite modern. It's like a women in men's fields.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like, women can murder princes, too.

[Anthony Delaney]

We call it the girl bossification of history on that.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly. So, you know, like, this. We. This is a very new theory.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's kind of fun.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. I'm gonna come out and say I don't buy it that way.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I know.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know that first one, I'm a bit like, okay, there's stuff there. Like, there's either a murder committed on Richard's orders, not by him, not at his hand, but there's something in that. Okay, so we have Margaret. I'm not buying that. So we can conclusively rule her out.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay. So exactly how do you feel about the Duke of the Buckingham?

[Anthony Delaney]

I am only very familiar with the 17th century and onward. Duke of Buckingham.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, okay, so this one in particular is Henry Stafford.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Again, he's. Yep. Got some relations to the throne. Pretty distant. He had been aligned with Richard. Okay, okay. But then he does, like, a light coup against him in 10-14-83. And he decides that he's going over to Henry VII's claim to the throne instead. Right? So the girls are fighting, as they

[Anthony Delaney]

always are, this period of time.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So the question is, did he turn on Richard

[Anthony Delaney]

to frame him?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. Like, could he have killed the princes for Richard before him and then be like, oh, yeah. Like, actually, actually, it was like him. Right? Like, maybe he was. Maybe he was trying to do a meddlesome priest, which was what we're calling it here.

[Anthony Delaney]

How did you. Do you confess? No. I mean. No.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, I mean, the thing is, like, he gets killed in November 1483 because

[Anthony Delaney]

of the whole coup thing Bill Cam does.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So, okay, so he's not.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Oh, yeah. Like, so. I mean, so it's kind of like a nice one to pin it on. Because it's like, well, he dead anyway.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's exactly where my suspicion is coming from.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's like. And they're like, oh, yeah, like, I bet that he did it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Because then it's like, well, you can't even be mad at me.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Cuz like, I already killed that guy. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

And question that you can't look into. Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. And like, he is also kind of like a very distant relative of Margaret Burford. So, like, maybe there's like a whole. Maybe it's a whole thing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. Could be links into it. It did. You know, I'm. Again, I think it's a little. I'm gonna. No, we can rule that out conclusively. Put one of those stamp pictures over this and say discredited.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Not like a name. Name names. Someone else? Probably not. Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. Now we're on to theory number three. And this is where our good friend Matt Lewis comes in. We're gonna hear from Matt in just a second. It'll, like, you're right back at God. Evil. But this theory is the no one did it theory and that they were. Weren't murdered at all.

[Matt Lewis]

Hi, Eleanor. I hope you're enjoying a moment away from the gone medieval dungeon. I can see you've got the devastatingly handsome, incredibly witty, and incalculably wise Lord Anthony there with you. I've almost finished my purchase of 100 copies of Queer Georgians. Just waiting for Anthony's verdict on this question.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Really?

[Matt Lewis]

Can I sum up my position on the princes in the Tower in a couple of minutes? No, I cannot. But here goes. I think both survived Richard III's reign and challenged Henry VII for his crown. He cast them as Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. And we've Fallen for his lies ever since. There's plenty of evidence to at least suggest their continued existence beyond 1485. There's no actual evidence of deaths, at least from 1483 to 1485. There's a bit of hearsay and some gossip, but that's not admissible evidence, as anyone who starred brilliantly in a crime drama will tell you. If Richard was going to kill them, he had to tell everyone they were dead to prevent them from being a threat to his throne. Otherwise, he killed them for no gain at all. In the 1490s, crowned heads of Europe recognized the younger of the princes in the Tower as the rightful King of England. We more often call him Perkin Warbeck. But the point here is that I don't believe kings would say, you can pass off a common boy as a king. It would tarnish their own sacred majestic and open the door for someone to do exactly the same thing to them. No gain would be worth that risk. Much of our image of them is affected by romantic Victorian portraits of them looking off in different directions, wondering when the murderer is due. Is he late yet? Edward asks young Richard. Even the dog gets in on the act, for crying out loud. There's plenty more to think about, but my time is just about up. Anthony, take good care of the Queen of gone medieval. I have every faith that you'll reach the correct decision. Now, do I hit buy on these books or not?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Light bit of blackmail.

[Anthony Delaney]

That is the most compelling argument.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, the amount of references he got

[Anthony Delaney]

in there, he must have been in my Wikipedia of age. We've got crime dramas, Georgians, not to

[Eleanor Jaenega]

mention personal flattery, which my man can research.

[Anthony Delaney]

I fall for it. That's every single time. That's my boy. I will say this. There was one particular point which he said that I went, oh, that's interesting. That deserves a little bit of a discussion between you and I here. We're gonna have to pick this up with Matt as well, just for balance, to get Matt in to talk about this. The idea that if Richard had been involved, even if it wasn't at his own hands, but had been involved in the dispos true heir, that actually might benefit him to let people know that he was dead. How do you think that stacks up?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, I mean, I think that that is an interesting point, but fundamentally he also just doesn't ever offer an explanation. He's just like, damn, that's crazy. Anyway, I'm the king now. Like, there's never any discussion about, like, where the princes are, right?

[Anthony Delaney]

Does he ever Say anything after. After.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

He's just like, wow, that's crazy. Where'd those guys go?

[Anthony Delaney]

I used to know.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, I guess if no one's around, if no one wants to be king, I guess I'll be the king.

[Anthony Delaney]

I guess one of the things I found really compelling, so I'm gonna have to give it the same weight in this. In the earlier thing is we suddenly got names. We had the people who potentially killed the princes and the Tower. In theory, one, it's a lot of tease. Now we have more names, names that Matt mentioned there. We have Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. So. So these are people we can trace in the archive.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. Why.

[Anthony Delaney]

Why are they not?

[Creon Medication Announcer]

Or.

[Anthony Delaney]

Or. Well, why in your mind, are they not the princes in the Tower?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, listen, Perkin Warbeck, he's like, hey, what's up? It's your boy, Richard of York. That's right.

[Anthony Delaney]

He's pretending to be the younger fella.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. And he's like, hello, it's me. Thanks very much.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do they turn up together or separately?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No, separately. Separately. So they come back to England through different routes, sometimes through Ireland, sometimes over from the French lands. And he comes in and he claims that he is Richard of York, which I think is an interesting one. I think it's interesting.

[Anthony Delaney]

That he's the younger one.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, that he's the younger one and not. So that's quite interesting. Then we also have Lambert Simnel, and he is specifically connected to an uprising in 1487. He doesn't say he's Edward V. Okay. He. He's not coming here and saying, hey, what, it's your boy, it's Edward V. I'm here to become the king. I'm the king.

[Anthony Delaney]

So what's he doing then? What?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, who doesn't enjoy a light uprising?

[Anthony Delaney]

So it. It is. It is some form of a coup. Uprising, type situ. Well, an attempt at. At that. But. But he's not. So who says he's Edward V, then?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Matt. Which, I mean, that's compelling.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm compelled.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

But. But at the time, is anyone saying it?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, what?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, so it's like this is kind of like something that we're coming up with now. And so some historians now argue that he wouldn't have had the backing that he had were he not.

[Anthony Delaney]

He didn't have that.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly.

[Anthony Delaney]

But we don't have somebody at the time saying, your man there, that came in, that's actually Edward V. So he's not saying it himself. Nobody at the time is saying it this is something that historians. And I can see why. I can see what you're saying about

[Eleanor Jaenega]

it, because it's a fairly successful uprising.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And he has the support. And who is this person? It is a nobody. But what's also interesting is that it's happening in 1487. So it's not a direct challenge to Richard at all.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No, this is a challenge against the Tudors. So, yeah, I think that there is this big differentiation here between Perkin Warbeck, who's like, tis I, Richard. Right. And Lambert Simnel, where now we're thinking maybe there might have been something behind it just because he was able to generate a certain amount of action. But also, fundamentally, people don't like them. Tutors.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So, you know, it's kind of, like, fun to poke at them.

[Anthony Delaney]

I still think, though. No, well, yeah, I still think that if Lambert Simnel, the second one had been Edward, that we would have something contemporary go. Even if it wasn't a way of explaining, like, written down to say, of course, yes, he's calling himself Lambert Simnel, but we all know in Gloucester that this is the actual Edward V or whatever. I mean, it's odd. It's odd that there's this random man showing up being like, uprising, let's go. Yeah, weird. But it doesn't necessarily spell the return of a missing king to me.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And also, let us be so for real, of course there's some random uprisings. Who the hell is Henry vii? Seems like you could just have an uprising.

[Anthony Delaney]

We've had a whole generation of random uprisings prior to the 1480s. For the people, it's just another one.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I'm like, oh, so you think that regular peasants can't have an uprising? Come on. I love peasant uprisings. Lunch was great, but this traffic is awful.

[Anthony Delaney]

Can we stop at a bathroom?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Are you all right?

[Paige Desorbo]

And keep having stomach issues after evening, like diarrhea, gas and bloating, abdominal pain and sometimes oily stools.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Sound familiar? Those stomach issues may actually be a pancreas issue called exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, or EPI creon. Pancrelipase may help manage epi. Creon is a prescription medicine used to treat people who can't digest food normally because their pancreas doesn't make enough enzymes.

[Creon Medication Announcer]

Creon may increase your chance of fibrosing colonopathy, a rare bowel disorder. Tell your doctor if you have a history of intestinal blockage or scarring or thickening of your bowel wall, if you are allergic to pork or if you have gout, kidney problems or worsening of painful swollen Jo. Call your doctor if you have any unusual or severe gastrointestinal symptoms or allergic reactions. Take Creon as directed by your doctor and always with food. Do not chew capsules, as this may cause mouth irritation. Other side effects may include blood sugar changes, gas, dizziness, sore throat and cough. These are not all the side effects of Creon. Call 800-633-9110 or visit creoninfo.com to learn more. That's C R E O N info.com

[Paige Desorbo]

I'm asking my doctor about EPI and if Creon could help.

[Matt Lewis]

Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History Hit twice a week. Join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans. And visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History Hit.

[Anthony Delaney]

Isn't there something as well about the. The prince's mother sending his sisters to Richard?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. And so, and so this is like a good question. It's like, why would she do that if she thought he'd killed her son?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. This is, this is what I'm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is. So this is. Feeds into the idea that they must have survived because she would never have sent. But I guess it's true. Two, two things can be true at the same time that she.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, the girls aren't going to. Let's be so for real. We are here in the 15th century. Girls can't inherit the throne.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. So we're. And actually what she's doing potentially is ensuring their safety by putting them into the center of power.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Everybody, look at them. It's like, also, the worst has already happened. Right. Like, here's my daughters. They're over there. There. There isn't really the same threat to their lives. This isn't, you know, three monarchs later when we have Mary. Right. You know, this is. You don't really let women inherit the throne of England yet. Yet.

[Anthony Delaney]

So the danger is just not the same.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's just not the same. And is it weird? Yeah. But court's weird.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, of course. Makes no sense.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. It's like, I mean, that the whole thing is a nest of vipers. One way or another. The best that you can say about any king is that. That they're dead. Right. Like These are not nice people.

[Anthony Delaney]

It is psychotic.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. It's really dangerous.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's a psychosis in the idea of a court.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

The most dangerous place that you can ever be is at court.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, absolutely.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So, you know.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And so it would make sense even if she did think or know that. Again, that's. Actually, now that we're having this conversation, it's a very modern take to go say she even did suspect that Richard had some way played a part in killing her boys. It wouldn't be that weird for her to go, well, let's make sure that doesn't happen to the rest of the surviving part of the family and that we still have a place in this new reign. And so, girls, off you go. You're going to be our family representatives there now. And it also then adds legitimacy to Richard and it shows that there's this peacefulness that is between the families, et cetera, et cetera.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Exactly. And more to the point, like, with this also, it's saying, I'm not a threat.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like, I'm not going to blow up. I'm not. I'm not doing anything. Just please be nice to the girls. Can you get them some advantageous marriages?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like, no. No threats over here.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

You know, so there's multiple ways you can read that.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's right. Final. This isn't really. Well, it is a theory, but it's. It's potentially some evidence, but it is a theory as well. There have been two sets of skeletons, am I correct? Two sets of skeletons found in or around the tower. Some people believe one or the other are the skeletons of the princes in the tower. Discuss.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. Okay. So the first set of skeletons we find come from 1647. They're rebuilding a staircase in the White Tower and they find a wooden chest 10ft underground. And it's got two skeletons of children, what are clearly. Clearly children. Okay, Right. Now come to understand, please, though, this is. This is something to understand. Like, yeah, that's maybe a bit weird. This is also happening during the reign of Charles ii. Right. So we have the restoration of the monarchy.

[Anthony Delaney]

We're back on the throne. Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And he's very seriously hoping to be like, ooh, prestige, prestige. Like, isn't it important to have a king? Wouldn't we all agree? You need a tiny spaniel.

[Anthony Delaney]

You need a king do lovely black, long locks. Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

You need to have all of these things. Right. And so he. Too much, kind of like pomp and circumstance, says, these are the princes and they are interred at Westminster Abbey, which is the traditional resting place of many monarchs.

[Anthony Delaney]

I see.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Right. So, you know, like, Lizzy Wan is in there, etc. Etc.

[Anthony Delaney]

So he gives them. So, okay, just. Let's recap on that. Just so I have the timeline correct. Did you say 16? They were discovered first in 1647. 47. So even before Charles II, the first is beheaded. In 49, they're discovered, but they kind of just mingle around there while the Republic and the Civil War is all happening.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, we had better things to do with these two. We were busy doing witch hunts. We were like. We were sliding castles.

[Anthony Delaney]

There was all sorts of things knocking Ireland to pieces. Listen, so, okay, lots going on, as you say. Then Charles II comes back. There is this restoration of the moniker. They are restored with no new hindrances on their powers. But we have started to see the push forward of Parliament in a new way, and the birth of. In some ways, modern party politics starts to emerge at this time. But in order to still shore up this idea of monarchy, you're saying that what he does is. Yes, those are the two boys. And now we're gonna infuse them with the regal dignity that they were denied in birth. And it gives me an excuse to have some pomp and circumstance again.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And, oh, aren't I a nice guy? Like, I'm worried about, like, oh, these ancestors have, like, these sensitivities. Right. It's a nice little bit of propaganda. And it costs him nothing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like, for the price of a tomb, you can get all of this and

[Anthony Delaney]

you can say what you want, because in those days, you're not going to be looking for DNA. Nobody's going to be like. And it adds up narratively. It makes sense. We found the skeleton of two children down some stairs in the tower. Who else could it be?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, Exactly. So in 1933, we took another squiz at the bones.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And we seem they're like, from around the correct age.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, they are.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Or so. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So there has been testing done on the.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

On those 19. 1933 testing, you know what I'm saying? You know, so, like, somebody smelled them,

[Anthony Delaney]

and we're like, yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And they're like, yeah, yeah. And we haven't done any DNA analysis

[Anthony Delaney]

on them on that set of bones. Nothing.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No. So it's just kind of like, you know, vibes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Right place, right time. Charles II said so, you know, whatever.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Now here's the thing. We got another set of bones right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Now, I have been confused around this because, yes, there is another set of Bones. When are these found?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

These are found in 1789.

[Anthony Delaney]

Another revolutionary year. Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

And these are.

[Anthony Delaney]

God, is there just loads of bones of kids hanging around the Tower of London.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, these are not from the Tower of London.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, where are these?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

These are from St. George's Chapel in Windsor, which is where Lizzie, too, is buried.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Radhi Deblookia]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, so they're there. So they're saying they were transported where.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's like, that's kind of like. It's. It is one of, like, the familial resting spots, you know, that is the sort of place that you might go put some bones.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

You know, if you're feeling guilty.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yes. You know, if you're feeling bad, if they, you know. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. So, like, that is. That's a place. That's a place. And these are found because, like, some workmen are doing a job and they accidentally break Edward Ivan tomb. And they're like, why are there two coffins of unidentified children in here?

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, wait, they were in with their dad. Oh, okay. Didn't realize this.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That's weird. Right?

[Anthony Delaney]

So there's two unidentified. I don't know if they would have been able to tell that they were boys at that particular moment in time.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

We got two little skeletons of kids in with Edward iv.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. That's weird.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's weird.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

A little bit weird.

[Anthony Delaney]

Strange. And what do we. Do we know anything about that? Was there a.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

The royal family don't want you to, like, think about it. They're like, please, could you just leave these skeletons alone? You're being weird. This.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, so there's note on those two particular ones.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So, like, this is the point is, like, we're still kind of debating this. And the thing that is sort of like, keeping us from doing that is the modern royal family, I would argue correctly, is like, Jesus Christ, like, leave these royal remains alone. Yeah, Right. Like, for the sake of a mystery, could we just, like, not let these skeletons rest in peace? Right. And so that's where we're at. So maybe there are bodies.

[Anthony Delaney]

Charles, William, unlike Eleanor, I am willing to. To be part of this testing process because I'm a nosy, nosy person.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Anthony's like, do it for the plot.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. I'm like, okay, I get the ethics, and I really do. And I get it. You are right. I will admit defeat. I will also admit an insatiable curiosity around trying to know something. But no, I get what you're saying. And as I say, you are right. You are on the right side of this. That's compelling to me.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Oh. It compels me, though.

[Anthony Delaney]

I was a little bit compelled when you're talking about the two that were found in the tower, but now I'm more.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I'm more compelled by those ones. Are you the ones in the tower? Because the tower, it's like all sorts of people were looking living there.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

For hundreds upon hundreds of years.

[Anthony Delaney]

And loads of people were killed there.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. And it's like. It's weirder. Like. Like, who are these kids buried in with their dad? It's odd.

[Anthony Delaney]

I think I know the answer to this now. I think I've solved it.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, okay, so do you want to hear my take?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay. Look, I don't exactly know, but one thing I do know is them kids dead.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay. And part of what makes me say that this, at the very least, is even the version of this where we accept that Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel are the princes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Involves the boys being smuggled out of the tower in the middle of the night by well wishers.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay, here's my thing. When I babysit my nieces and nephews,

[Anthony Delaney]

you tried to escape with them.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

No one is like, damn, we better get those kids away from Eleanor right now, because I fear for their lives. Why? Like, if everything is just, like, completely copacetic and, like, completely above board in the Tower of London right now, why are we smuggling kids out of there, homie? Like, why do. Why do we even need to think. To do that? Yeah, if everything's fine.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, that's a good point.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

This is a key piece of evidence. Like, okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

And very almost basic. Yeah, in a good way. I mean, no one.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

But, like, no one talks about that. It's like, so, you know.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So like, smuggling them from what if everything is fine. Yeah, if everything is fine and these kids grew up to be, you know, like, leaders of varying rebellions, etc. Etc. Why are we smuggling? Like, you would just be like, okay, yeah, there they are. And also, like, to Matt's point about, like, what would the kings of Europe have to gain from this? Well, in the first place, they're the kings of Europe. They are the kings of. Of England. They're like kings of England.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's. Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Oh, yeah, that's a king. Like, they pick a new king every five minutes over there. Like, they're like, he's not talking about me. Yeah, right. Like, and then also a big bunch of the people who are kind of supporting the pretenders. So, for example, Perkin Warbeck, he has support from The Dukes of Burgundy, the Duchess's aunt. And the Dutch is like, oh, yeah, for real. That's my nephew. She hasn't seen him since he was like, three.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

You know, and she's also like, the richest woman in Europe. And people don't like the time Tutors. Yeah, they don't like the tutors. So it's kind of like. Yeah, like, it's like, I got money for that. Like, go annoy the tutors. Like, that'll be. This is gonna be funny. Like, see what they do. Right. It's just rich people stuff. It's like rich people sports stuff.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure, sure.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

She's not a queen.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It actually doesn't call anything into question,

[Anthony Delaney]

but equally, she, she, maybe she sees. Look, I'm total conjecture on my part, but like you say, she's not a queen and she's not. And so she's like, yeah, I got the money to do this, but I wonder if she's like, well, if we can put them, put that guy on the throne, then, but then if we get some actually legit rich blood in there, we can, we can get.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, like, then they're beholden to you and that's all.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, quite fine.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I don't know who killed these kids or if they simply died. I think that also, like, one way I would think about it is perhaps they simply died of neglect.

[Anthony Delaney]

That they just didn't survive the tower.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, they just didn't survive the tower. Maybe they just weren't treated particularly well. This is a common way, way that royal people die when they are under custody. Oh, right. Often times they're not out and out murdered. They just die. Happens. They just die because they're just not being treated very well. These are young kids in an incredibly stressful situation. Their father has just died. Apparently they're going around saying they're in fear for their life. It's the bloody 15th century. If they get a bad cold, they're just going to fall over and die.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I actually just think they're not treated particularly well.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That's kind of like my personal pet one. I don't know that anyone went in there and smothered anyone, but I think those kids are dead.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm gonna agree with you. I'm so sorry, Matt. And Matt, you're so now you only need to. Now you only need to buy 50 copies of Queer Georgians. I, I, I agree with you. And you know what has. There are two children, Children in a tomb with Edward iv. I think that's what it has to come down to. And one of the reasons why I'm buying into your theory there of whether. Whether or not they were killed per se, as opposed to just died would make sense in that their bodies were somewhat honored by placing them in the tomb with their father. And even if they were killed, it's still an honoring of their status, their position, but still going, yeah, I see what you could have been. But I'm gonna say they were murdered. I am. That has to be them, doesn't it? I mean, I don't know.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It seems compelling, right? To me, it seems compelling. And, like, listen, I want to be clear. I'm not one of these people who is like. And Richard III is a really horrible man, bad man. Like, let's do all of that. And this is more particularly because I think that all kings are bad. Acap. With a K. I think that fundamentally the position of royalty is a violent one.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That is. That is a result of a monopoly on violence. And all kings are terrible people.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

All kings murder dozens, scores of people, Whether it's in warfare or that guy stole a sheep or, you know, what have you. I don't find. Find the prince is more compelling than any of those ordinary people that we will never hear from.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

So even were these kids killed, I don't think that makes him necessarily a worse king than anybody else. You know, there are terrible monarchs all over Europe who are doing absolutely abysmal things constantly, and we don't bring it up. And it is, as Matt pointed out, a result of this ridiculous kind of Tudor and Victorian sentimentality that we dwell on this story. The way we. In many ways, I feel about Richard iii, the same way that I feel about King Stephen. He got there first.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, sure, sure. That's the name of the game. Exactly. Didn't make it to the. To the altar. Didn't get the sacrificial or not. Didn't get the consecrational oils or whatever. So it's.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

It's.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I see. It's. It's a way to be king.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yep.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a legitimate way to be king. What he does. What, Richard iii. Well. Or if he does. If he does. Yeah, sure. Exact.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I don't know. Like, I think the only way we're really gonna get closure on this would be if we do DNA analysis on either of these skeletons and it comes up conclusively to be. Then Otherwise, there isn't a way to solve this. And I also think that, like, as historians, we have to become comfortable with that. You know, we don't get to have

[Anthony Delaney]

an answer to everything. No, we have to meet these stories and histories where they are. They don't need to work for us. Still, though, Charles and William, if you want to listen, send me a WhatsApp. I'm not medievalist.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Sound off in the comments. Can we come over? I just want to talk.

[Anthony Delaney]

I feel like Catherine and I will get on now. Listen, I think do away with the monarchy. I don't understand it. I'm Irish, obviously, and I do think it's a form of psychosis that monarchy is. That said, I do feel like I get on with Catherine. She has lovely gowns.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

She has really nice gowns, doesn't she?

[Anthony Delaney]

I bet you she's good crack. And I know she might not seem in the work, but I bet you she's good crack and I feel like I could bring the crack out on her a little bit more. Based on nothing.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Come down pub.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. And like, just let, like, let's sack them all off and we won't go there. We'll go over to the west of Ireland for a while, just, you know, we don't need to. We don't need to bring all the entourage and everything. I mean, you probably do for your safety, but you'll be grand. It just. I don't know. I don't know. It's. But nonetheless, they remain a compelling institution. Here we are, 2026, and they are headline news still, in the same way that this is happening in the 15th century. And so, you know, we're having a lot of convers and the second book feeds into this, but we have a lot of conversations right now about the survival of the monarchy. I see no clues. Despite any personal republican leanings that I might have. I see no clues right now on this day, the 27th of February, that we're recording this 2026, that the institution of monarchy is in any real danger. I think we are on the verge of seeing what will look on the surface of it like radical reform in the next generation. But there will be a king after Charles. William will be king unless something, you know, totally unforeseen or catastrophic happens. I don't see it going anywhere.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I don't think that, like, any of the current princes are getting knocked off.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no. And if they do, you know where it comes. Right, that's all solved, that one. Then people can stop talking about this now.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Listen, you know, we're fine, we're done.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you wish they would, as a medievalist or you a Bit like, oh, I'm done with that one.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Well, I guess my thing about it is I don't get it because again, I don't care about kings.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

I like regular people. I think Lambert Simol is more interesting if he isn't a prince.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure, sure. Well, A.B. i mean that is insane.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

That's my take.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Like, I mean I'm, I'm much more interested in everyday people. Again, a cab with a K. All kings are bastards. I don't want to know about them or care about them and I don't feel the need to, to stick up for them because they don't need anyone to stick up for them. They're fine. They're fine.

[Anthony Delaney]

They're absolutely okay. Right on that. We will leave you to it. Thank you for joining us for this world changing discussion. The Medieval Field.

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, welcome.

[Anthony Delaney]

The Medieval field is now our piece that this mystery has been solved. Those boys are in that tomb with their dad. If you've enjoyed this episode you can go and actually watch the conversation on YouTube. We have our YouTube channel. Go over there can come and see me on my social media channel. Anthony Delaneyhistory Eleanor, where can they find you?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Dr. Eleanor Jaenega so you can hang

[Anthony Delaney]

out with us there. Leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts on both Gone Medieval and After Dark because it helps people find us and discover us and hear more problem solving escapades that we take part in. Write to [e-mail] particularly. Do you guys do this Gone Medieval in case?

[Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You can, you can get us at gone [e-mail] I see a pattern. Crazy, isn't it?

[Anthony Delaney]

It's like we work for the same production company. If you have any subjects topics that you would like us to cover then you can get in touch on either one of those there and we will have our producers go through them. They look at them and we, we talk about them as well. So they, they may well make it to air. I will let you go. Thank you. Have a good day. Have a good night. Enjoy your workout, enjoy your day at work, whatever it is you're doing. We'll see you again soon.

[Radhi Deblookia]

Foreign.

[Anthony Delaney]

Hey it's Howie Mandel and I am inviting you to witness history as me and my How We do it gaming team take on Gilly the king and wallow. Two six, $7 million gaming in an epic Global Gaming League video game showdown. Four rounds, multiple games, one winner plus a halftime performance by multi platinum artist Travy McCoy. Watch all the action and see who wins and advances to the championship match against Neo right [e-mail] that's globalgamingleague.com everybody

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