← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
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- [00:00]
Host
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- [01:42]
Host
Julius Caesar, the soldier who dared to cross the Rubicon. Champion for the common people, tyrant to Rome's elite. The man who led Rome to victory in the long, brutal Gallic wars, who crushed Rome's enemies from the Pyrenees to the Rhine and to thrust Roman eagles across the channel into Britannia, laying the foundations for the most famous empire in ancient history. The man who on the ides of March 44 BCE walked into the Senate past the soothsayer's warnings, past the rumours and past the uneasy silence of the men he trusted and calmly took his place. Within minutes, Julius Caesar would lie dying, stabbed 23 times by his friends, allies and proteges. They called themselves liberators. They claimed they were saving the Republic. Instead, they unleashed civil war. This is the history of how the Romans killed their most famous ruler and lost themselves in the chaos. Welcome to After Dark. Hello and welcome to After Dark. Now you may have noticed that I am riding solo at the moment because Maddie is off on a brand new adventure. She has started a new baking company and she's up to her elbows in flour and cakes. No she's not. She's had a baby. But for the next few episodes. Well, there are quite a few episodes I am going to be going solo on After Dark So thank you for joining me. It's going to be a bit of an adventure and let's see how we all get on together. But we have a history today that is really going to ease us into this new temporary phase of After Dark. And it is incredibly powerful and very dramatic. And what better way to Start? By early 44 BCE, the future of the Roman Republic was far from certain its would be king in the eyes of some. Julius Caesar was assassinated by a group of supposedly loyal senators who claimed they were saving the Roman Republic from a return to monarchy. Instead, their blades plunged Rome into chaos, civil war and the rise of an emperor and an empire, changing the course of history forever. Now to take us back to this momentous moment is a friend of the show and award winning ancient historian. Not that she's ancient, she studies the ancient past. And that is Dr. Jess Venner. Jess is, as I said, an ancient historian and archaeologist. She is also author of the Lost Voices of Life and Death on Pompeii's Final Day, which was published on 23rd April 2026. Jess, welcome to After Dark.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here in person.
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Host
I know we did because you were all being very fancy and being in Italy last night.
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Dr. Jess Venner
I was in Italy, yes, in the sun.
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Host
Well, I don't envy the sun, as everybody on After Dark knows. I'm a creature of the shadows. But nonetheless, you were in some pretty dramatic, dramatic surroundings. Now, before we get started on the details of this, we're going to be talking about the murder of Julius Caesar today. Yes, you may have heard of him. But I want to talk about the Ides of March because it might be interesting for some people to know, because I didn't know this until relatively recently, that the Ides of March is actually a day. This is a calendar day. So give us an idea of what that day signifies in the Roman calendar.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Yes. So the ides is the 15th and they had a really weird way of sorting out their calendar. They had three sort of points in the month, the Nones, the Calends and the Ides. And the Ides of March has obviously become very important to us via Shakespeare mostly, to be honest. But this is the date that Julius Caesar was warned about. So they sort of worked their calendar around the market mostly and they would use these points as, as sort of points of reference really.
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Host
Do you know what I was hoping there when you were explaining that you were saying, oh, they had the kalen and then they had the Ides. I was Hoping you were going to say they had the kalen and then they had the der, and that's where we get Kalendur.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, my God. No, no, no, I never really thought about that.
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Host
Well, it's not true. So that's why you haven't thought about it. Right. Before we come to this particular point with the murder of Julius Caesar, give us an idea about what Rome is like at this particular time in history. Because it is a time of flux, it's a time of stakes. People are feeling a change. They're not necessarily delighted about that change or the idea that a change has been afoot, but also the ways in which Rome is being led. So this is a very interesting buildup.
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Dr. Jess Venner
It's such a stressful time for them. The senators aren't happy at all. So the senators, of course there are about 600 of them, or at least there is later on. And they are really, really unhappy because there are a lot of players that are starting to rise and realize that they can take power for themselves. And so the senators who are very wealthy people, they are very ancestral based in the sense that they can only be senators because their families are very, very old and they hold that position in society as a result. So they think a lot of themselves. And so they've got these sort of upstarts coming through the ranks, changing things up. And this sort of starts around 133Bce when the Gracchi brothers, they really were causing a lot of cha. They loved the people and they started putting power back into the people's hands. And they put more emphasis on this thing called the tribune of the plebs. And they were the tribune of the plebs and the plebs were everybody else other than senators and, you know, the elites, basically. And so the tribunes, these two brothers, we've got Tiberius and we've got Gracchus. Tiberius causes chaos to start with because he says, right, what we're going to do is we're actually going to start listening to the law.
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Host
Why? Why would you do that?
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Dr. Jess Venner
Right? And he says, okay, we've ignored this law. Where there's 309 acres is limited to people. So what we're gonna do is anyone that has anything over that, we're gonna take it away and we're gonna give it to the people, to the unlanded poor. And of course the rich people hate this. They're just so annoyed by this. And so then he is murdered. He is actually murdered by, you know, the senators that are really cross with him. And then we've got, later on, we've Gaius Grass and he see this now, the names.
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Host
The names in this. And there's a. Later. We'll come to it, there's a Brutus, but there's also another Brutus. And don't get the Brutuses mixed up. But look, I mean, that's for another day. But it's really difficult, I think, for general. For general people with an interest in this that are not necessarily trained historians. This is one of the things that catches them out sometimes, all of these names and the different ways that they have to keep track of all these people. But it builds up to this kind of epic landscape at the same time.
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Dr. Jess Venner
It does, and it connects them all in these important. The names are very, very important, of course, as we're saying. You know, it gives them legitimacy if they're part of a gens, which is a sort of family of names and a group. So that's really important. You know, like Julius Caesar was part of the gens, Julia, and that one was quite old as well. But it's so complicated.
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Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Jess Venner
So, yeah. So then we've got Gaius, who then does the agrarian reforms, but he's also starting to do other things that are really annoying. For example, the senators put out this seating in the forum for a gladiator show, and it's paid seating so that they get the best seats. And overnight Gaius takes them down. So he's just niggling at them constantly. He's starting to give more power to the people, and so they're just annoyed. And then we've got other people rising up through the ranks who are starting to take these generals who are starting to take more power into their own hands. There's a man called Gaius Marius who is incredibly important, and he becomes a bit of a blueprint for Julius Caesar. He realizes that he can give the people back more power also. And that would give him power in the sense that he starts recruiting ordinary people into his army. Previously, you had to have land to do that. And so when he said, you don't have to do that, that's fine, and you know what? I'm going to pay you. I'm going to give you a nice little pension, I'm going to give you some land afterwards as well. People are like, oh, my God, absolutely. But. But the key thing is that they're fighting for him, not for the Roman Senate anymore. And so he has loyalty. He's figured out, okay, loyalty to me is the way to get what I want, basically.
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Host
And a lot of what you're describing here. Well, tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me a lot of what you're describing here comes directly from the fact that there is a Republic in place. And so we can. Yeah, we have this lineage, which is really important, and we see that throughout, you know, even much later republics such as the Dutch Republic in the 17th century, where lineage is still a really important part of that republican formation. But we're now seeing people who are slightly upstartish, who are using that system that they so advocate for in the Republic to find their own place, to grab some power, to have something of their own. And as a result, there is this idea which becomes really pertinent for Julius Caesar. There's this idea that kingship is not something we're comfortable with, despite the fact that the elites and the nobles are going. Well, I'm not sure about that happening over there. That seems like a bit of a coup or whatever it might be. But I'm also not sure that I want to go back to any kind of a monarchical system. So tell us a little bit about what the attitudes towards kings and kingship is in Rome at this time.
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Dr. Jess Venner
So the word rex, which is king, was just absolutely not. It was disgusting to them. They hated that it was a threat to them, because this is how the Republic started. So there was a king who was called Tarquin the Proud.
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Host
That's a terrible name.
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Dr. Jess Venner
And he was really arrogant, and he wasn't a nice guy at all.
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Host
Or red chinos. He definitely wore red.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Tarquin had a son called Sextus, also Sextus Tarquinius, a very confusing. But we'll call him Sextus. And he had taken a liking to this woman called Lucretia. Now, Lucretia was married to a man who was, you know, very important in public life at the time. And he was on campaign, I think, basically he was out of the house. And this sexist goes to Lucretia's house as a guest of her husband, and in the night, he creeps to her room and assaults her. And so in the morning, she's absolutely devastated, of course, and she realizes that not only has her honor been taken away, but because of the way things worked at the time, the honor of her husband and her father had been taken away. This was a complete violation of the Roman way, okay? And so she tells them she's devastated, and she takes a dagger and stabs herself in the chest. And we see this A lot in art as well. She's always depicted as doing this horrible act, and they take her body through the streets, and the people, they revolt and they get rid of the monarchy. One of the people that leads this is a man called Brutus, and he was an ancestor of another Brutus that we know very well. And so from that point on, we had the seven kings and the Republic is born. They start putting power into the hands of many. And one of the ways to do this is creating the consulship. So there's two people, and they're elected annually. And they can only hold that for a short amount of time for a reason, so that they don't become powerful in themselves. So these sorts of things are put into place, and there's a different way to manage the Republic that has now been created.
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Host
I love that there is such a personal and person at the heart of the birth of this republic, and that it was a general outcry from the populace that made this come to pass. And also that it was a woman that was at the heart of it, despite the horrific treatment and the experience that she had gone through. But it goes to show how the people had formulated this republic for themselves. And you can therefore understand, because of the emotion, because of the math, mass appeal, you can understand why at this moment in time, when it comes to Julius Caesar, why the idea of a republic is still so important to them.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Exactly. Yes. It's their res publica. And so when people like Gaius Marius or later Sulla, who I'm sure will talk about, start coming up through the ranks, and then Caesar, they're like, oh, no, you know, history is repeating itself here. We need to be careful.
- [15:22]
Host
It's so easy to go back to this idea and we'll talk about the idea of a dictator and what that meant in the Roman sense, because it is slightly. You could be assigned a dictator, but it is a fear that we're going back and that we're having these individuals, this almost like strongman politics thing happening again. Right, where someone like Julius Caesar is coming to the fore. So let's push forward, then let's come to the murder or the time leading up to the murder. And we have a sense of in the days before, in the hours before, but even in the days before, of there being something building. And, okay, a lot of this might have come after the fact in the retellings that come later, but there's this idea that there are visions coming to people. People are dreaming about things happening. We have Julius Caesar is now in control he has, I believe, been offered a diadem twice and very dramatically refused it by Mark Antony. So now we' at a point where there are hints that things might be going wrong. So take us a little bit closer to the event itself.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah. And again, everyone's really tense at this time. You know, he's so. Caesar's causing a lot of anxiety in that he has a huge amount of power abroad. He's come back from Gaul and he's crossed the Rubicon and he's marched on Rome. And he knew he could do that because of this Sulla. So Sulla was a general who was the first general to march on Rome because, again, the Senate were trying to take away power from him. And he said, no, absolutely not. Sorry, not happening. And so he sort of set a precedent for Caesar. And Caesar's now come back, and they're all aware that he's there. And you know what? He's really popular with the people. Cause he's really magnanimous, sort of charismatic leader. So he's not kingly in that sense, but he's starting to show these signs that you've said. And so it's making everyone very, very nervous. So, yes, we've got the Lupercalia, which is the festival of Romulus and Remus. Yeah.
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Host
And a lot of nudity.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, God, so much. Yeah.
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Host
Well, I mean, it's very.
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Dr. Jess Venner
They loved that. Anyway, on a festival, they'd just strip off, get drunk, and could never be me.
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Host
I'd be like, oh, my God. I was raised a Catholic. I know it doesn't exist at this time, but. Yeah, no, it's. They're just. And they're totally nude and they're whipping breasts and everything. It's just Bacchanalias. Yes.
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Dr. Jess Venner
It's another one.
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Host
Very intense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Jess Venner
But importantly, it's associated with Romulus. And so Caesar chooses this moment, or apparently doesn't choose it. He's.
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Host
Yes, yes, yes.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Come on. But Mark Antony, like you said, offered him the crown.
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Host
And he's naked. Mark Anthony is naked. Sorry.
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Dr. Jess Venner
I know.
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Host
I'm getting really hung up on the nude part of this. But he. Apparently. He's naked. Right. When he approaches him with the diadem.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Well, I think it's just like, you know, later writers being like, this is crazy.
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Host
Okay, okay.
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Dr. Jess Venner
They're making them look mad, I think.
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Host
And that's why you're a good historian.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Yes. But, you know, I'd like to think that that was exactly the case. I think we should.
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Host
Yeah. I think we should picture it.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Keep with that one. And so Caesar pushes this diadem away twice. And, and because the crowd are like, you know, and then he's not getting the reaction he wants and, and, you know, if the people don't like it, then absolutely not. And he's good at, you know, noticing that.
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Dr. Jess Venner
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- [19:42]
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- [19:45]
Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, right.
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Host
And do you think it was a test? Do you think it was? Cause we don't know for certain. But there is this idea that he was testing the people to see how when he was presented with the diadem, whether or not they were like, hooray, yeah, we can do this. Or whether they were going exactly do you think that was the case? That it was a test? He was involved in this somehow?
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Dr. Jess Venner
100%. He already had the Senate over a barrel. He basically, he ruled by violence. So he was part of this unofficial triumvirate with two others, Pompey and Crassus, and they were incredible, incredibly wealthy and incredibly powerful. He ruled by violence, by. Basically every time he wanted to get his way, he would have these gangs violently assault people to stop. You know, his other consul had literal poo, like, put over his head, and he just couldn't get anything done. And so he's ruling by violence. And so. Yes. So the other task now is to get the people on his side. And so when he has this diadem thing and they all start groaning, he's like, no, not today. Seriously, stop it, Mark Anthony. Like, stop. Yeah, not today. It's not working. But, you know, then other people are putting crowns on his statues, and we've talked about the tribunes and how important they are. They are the people's representative, and he takes them out of office because they took the crowns off the statues. So he's clearly enjoying this idea of being a king, but, you know, he's trying to do it in this surreptitious sort of way, but he's kind of getting his way in every.
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Host
And we should point out as well, that he has, by this particular point, he has surpassed this idea of those checks and balances on power that we had spoken about before, where you could only be a consul for so long. He's now just. I think by this point, he's dictator for life. Right. They've given him this title and this position.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah. So the Senate start giving him all these things, and there is a theory that they started giving him all of these honors, including dictator for life, which, you know, it's important to mention that a dictator is usually chosen in a moment of crisis, and it's a very temporary measure. And they are the ones that are supposed to give that role back. They're supposed to relinquish it as an honorable Roman man. And so he's given this honor here, and, you know, he's given a golden ivory throne to sit on. And the Senate have gone mad, basically.
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Host
They're like, note to producers. I would like a golden ivory throne for future episodes of Ahmedar.
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Dr. Jess Venner
I think you need it. And a diadem, obviously.
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Host
The naked Mark Anthony.
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Boost Mobile Advertiser
No, stop.
- [23:50]
Host
I'm concentrating too much.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Behind you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So they're giving him all these things, and there's a theory that they were giving him these things to be like, he's got too much power.
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Host
Right.
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Dr. Jess Venner
It's kind of a weird tactic, I think. But, you know, there could be some truth in it. So, yeah, so he's getting all of these. But dictator for life is a scary one because now no one can do anything about it. Dictators can create laws, you know, and they can assign provinces. Provinces are where the, you know, the power is. So it's a scary moment.
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Host
So speaking of scary moments, then we have a soothsayer. And the soothsayer in the run up to the Ides of March, in this particular moment in time, says, come here to me now. You need to be a little bit careful because shit's going down. I think those are the exact words as they're recorded in the primary source material. And tell me what that prediction is. What does the soothsayer warn?
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Dr. Jess Venner
The soothsayer says, beware the Ides of March. In Shakespeare's. Yeah, again, we have to say this in the Shakespeare's. There's a lot of quotes around this time. You know, later on, lots of writers obviously talk about this incredibly important moment, but the main consensus is that this soothsayer did go to him and say, you really better watch out on the specific day. Day. And then we have all of the other portents.
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Host
Yes. So let's talk about those. So we have his wife. We have Calpurnia's dream.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Yes.
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Host
Tell us about what she dreams about, because it's very dramatic.
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Dr. Jess Venner
I know. I mean, if I got dreams like that, I'd be really worried.
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Host
No, I'd need to go to therapy.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, my God. Yeah. So she had a dream the night before that he was bleeding profusely. And I think that there was blood coming out of his statues as well. And so she goes to him and she's like, please don't go to work today. Just don't do it. It's really not a good. And obviously there's a lot of tension and stirring around Rome anyway, so it's really important that he listened to her, I think. And women have a certain way of knowing these things, particularly in Roman tradition. But, you know, he's kind of like, okay, well, you know, I think it'll. I think it'll be all right. And his friend Decimus, who's very important, we'll talk about him later. But he comes to Caesar and he says, you have to go, you have to go. It's gonna look fishy if you don't Go. They're gonna think that you think you're better than them.
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Host
Now let's tell us where he's going to. So. Yeah, so. So we have an idea of where they do don't want him to go.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Yes. So the usual room that they use is out of service in the Forum. Okay. So they're going to the theater of Pompey. Now, this is an important thing because Pompey is the man we've mentioned. He has very. A lot of power. Right. And he was one of Caesar's rivals. So they're going there. They're going to the Curia. And incorrectly is sometimes said that he was in this place that I fondly refer to as Cat city in Rome, where there's a cat sanctuary there now, but it's like a little Forum Largo, Argentina, in Rome. So if anyone goes there and they say, these tour guides say, oh, this is where Caesar's met. Ignore them.
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Host
Ah, it's gonna go.
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Dr. Jess Venner
It's not there. But importantly, he goes to this Senate house, this temporary Senate house. And he's going in, and the soothsayer's there again.
- [27:09]
Host
Oh, no. At the door. Just random hanging out.
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Dr. Jess Venner
He's at the door and he goes to Caesar. You know what I said? And Caesar's like, it's not happened. Yeah, we're on the ides of March. It's not happened. And he's like, it's not over yet.
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Host
Great. I feel really confident now about the rest of my day.
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Dr. Jess Venner
I know. And people are handing him notes and he doesn't have the time to look at them.
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Host
So this is a busy crowd. Well, it's relatively crowd. There's what, like 30 or 40 people, I think, in around. They think something like that. He's surrounded by people they all want. Because you can approach and advocate for yourself on an individual case. So they're coming to him with these requests, whatever it is, surrounded by other men. One of the things that I love about this as well, which is, you know, probably afterwards, is that there have been other. In the buildup to this, there have been other sacrificial omens. So, for instance, an animal that was supposed to be sacrificed was apparently found with no heart inside. And so it's like, oh, God, the animal doesn't have a heart. How has it been living up until this point? But there's just. When it's been retold afterwards that there is an almost an inevitability to this buildup and to this one moment where this man finds himself surrounded by These people. And there's a crackle of danger in the air. His wife has had this dream. And before we get to the moment of death itself, let's talk about who some of these men that are surrounding him are. Let's stick with the key players. I'll start you with Marcus Junius Brutus.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, yes.
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Host
Am I saying that right?
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Dr. Jess Venner
Junius Unious.
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Host
Unious.
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Dr. Jess Venner
There was no J. So I'd have been a yessica, I guess.
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Host
Oh, my God.
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Dr. Jess Venner
Yes, yes.
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Host
Sirca initially. Yes.
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Dr. Jess Venner
So Brutus is obviously very well known now, thanks to Shakespeare. So Brutus was one of the main people. And he was, again, incredibly stressed because there's graffiti all over Rome telling him and reminding him of his ancestry. Brutus, the original Brutus, was the first person to get rid of Tarquin and the monarchy.
- [29:15]
Host
Good man, Brutus. We want to get rid of Tarquin. I don't know why. Brutus.
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Dr. Jess Venner
So, yeah, we hate Tarquin for some reason. Not for some reason, for a good reason.
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Host
Yeah.
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Dr. Jess Venner
I mean, it was his son, but, yeah, no, pretty bad. So we've got Brutus, and we've got Brutus, and everyone's going, you know what? Brutus. New Brutus now Brutus. Again, confusing. They're saying, you really should remember your ancestry, and you need to do something about this king, because he was.
- [29:40]
Host
Was kind of okay with Caesar at this point. Right? Like, he had his doubts, but. And Caesar was very good at this. Well, turns out he wasn't, but he had kind of pardoned a lot of people who had been against him and kept them around, probably thinking he could control them or whatever. But Brutus is one of those people who, it seems, he's convinced and who. Who is on his side for now at least.
- [30:01]
Dr. Jess Venner
I think it was definitely part of him being this, you know, gracious, magnanimous. Yes, exactly. He was trying to. To be different to Sulla, who famously created these prescriptions where everyone had money on their head. And he said, go out and kill all these people that I don't like, one of whom was Julius Caesar, by the way, who ran away because he said to him, you have to divorce your wife because she's related to Pompey. And he said, nah, I'm not doing that. So he left. So, you know, he's trying to be very different to him. And so I think he probably knew that there were these people that were annoyed with him, but there wasn't much he could do about it because he wanted to create this image, I think. But, yes, I think to an Extent. He probably did trust them as well. And Brutus was one of those people also, interestingly, Brutus was probably a bit annoyed because Caesar's favourite mistress was Brutus's mother.
- [30:57]
Host
Wait, Caesar's favorite? Oh, okay. Yes.
- [31:01]
Dr. Jess Venner
So Brutus probably wasn't a great fan.
- [31:03]
Host
This is enough of that.
- [31:04]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah, rude. Yeah.
- [31:05]
Host
So we have him as one of these people that's. That's milling around. We also have. Watch my pronunciation here. Gaius Cassius Longinus.
- [31:16]
Dr. Jess Venner
Longinus, Yep.
- [31:17]
Electric For All Advertiser
Which one?
- [31:18]
Dr. Jess Venner
Longinus. Okay, good. The thing is, we all say different things sometimes because it's Latin and we have to be completely convinced that it's right no matter what anyone tells you. So. Yes. No, he's an experienced military commander and again, he's sort of. Of trusted by Caesar. He's another one that's trusted by Caesar and he's a lesser conspirator, but he is one of the big three. Definitely. Yes. And importantly, he also fought against Caesar at Pharsalus, which is one of the main battles that. The one that Caesar defeated Pompey at. So this is like a. This is a turning point.
- [31:55]
Host
So he was there and that makes him kind of a legacy person for Caesar. Right. For Julius Caesar, because he's part of that. That story of how he has gotten to where he is now. So these are kind of pillars of the. Not rain, but rain, I suppose. And then we have another Brutus, but middle name Brutus. We have Decimus Junius Brutus Albinus. Yeah, easy, remember. I'll always remember that name. This is somebody who potentially was one of the more trusted.
- [32:28]
Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, incredibly, he's the biggest traitor of all of them.
- [32:32]
Host
It's not so much Brutus, the first Brutus.
- [32:34]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Brutus is always depicted as, you know, the Judas, but actually it was Decimus because he was in Caesar's will. Even so he was really, really trusted by him. He also fought for him in Gaul.
- [32:48]
Host
Yeah, he wasn't like one of the ones he forgave. He was just there. He was just an actual ally. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:54]
Dr. Jess Venner
So he's the one that I mentioned that went to Caesar's house and said, no, no, no, no, you've got to come today. And, you know, they were trying to get him to go because he was about to go on campaign.
- [33:02]
Host
It's Decimus rather than Brutus that does that.
- [33:04]
Dr. Jess Venner
Exactly. So he was a friend, was like, well, it must be okay if he's saying go. I mean, surely he, you know, there's. There's murmurings but whatever, I'll go because he's my friend. So yeah, it's like the ultimate, ultimate betrayal. But like I say, the senators that were the conspirators, there's about 60 of them, were really stressed in sense of getting this done because Caesar was about to leave in four days to go on campaign to Persia. And if he went and did that, they were pretty convinced that he would get it done and he'd basically be a king then.
- [33:36]
Host
He would.
- [33:36]
Dr. Jess Venner
There was nothing they could do about it at that stage. So they really were running out of time. So they were like, got to get him to this, to this meeting.
- [33:42]
Host
Yeah, we all hate a work deadline and you know, theirs involved murder. Speaking of murder, let's come to the moment itself then. We have, as you described so well, a few moments ago, we have. Julius Caesar's walked into this room. He's surrounded by maybe, you know, 30 people. Depending on your source, it can vary. It's busy, there's a lot going on. And I think importantly, there's no bodyguard there that day. Right. From what I remember, he's dismissed him, he's dismissed his bodyguard. And so the proximity of these people to Julius Caesar is probably unthinkable for us now. There's no way, you know, a prime minister, a president would be allowed to be so free today and be so exposed to danger. But nonetheless, this is what we have. Take us through the beats of what happens next.
- [34:26]
Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, it's so dramatic. And yes, like you say, we need to remember that there's lots of different accounts of. But they would have talked about it a hell of a lot. So we can be pretty sure what
- [34:37]
Host
happened because this is one of the most documented. Again, like you say, we have to be careful about. There's varying and competing accounts, but in terms of some of ancient history, this is one of the most documented events, right?
- [34:49]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've survived as well, you know, so there must have been so many more people talking about this. It was the, you know, it was like when Princess Diana died. There were different accounts of these different things. And it was a really important heartfelt moment for the people, cultural, social, right. It was very, very important for everybody. And so they had to reflect on it. It wasn't just cause people were being murdered all the time, let's be honest. But this was different. So he is surrounded by people. It's a bit like in the Houses of Parliament where it's quite closed in and they're quite squashed. And so they start surrounding him and so there's this guy that comes up to him and gives him a petition about an exile. I think it's his brother. And Caesar refuses it. He, he's, you know, he's like, no, no. So again, he's, he's in power here. And then somebody comes up to him and then that guy pulls at his toga and this is the pre arranged signal to go for it. Right.
- [35:48]
Host
So it's really so dramatic. I know the pulling at the toga. For me, I always remember it because it's so intimate and it's so personal. It's also depriving him of respect in his position, you know, where it's like, it's just, it's quite visceral.
- [36:02]
Dr. Jess Venner
I think it is. Putting your hand on a person is very, you know, it is. And I think he said something along the lines of, this is violence.
- [36:10]
Host
Yes.
- [36:10]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah. So he's, you know, affronted. How rude. But it gets worse. So then one other senator comes up and goes for his neck. Right. So he's holding his neck and it's all. He's confused. And then they start going for him.
- [36:27]
Host
Now when you say going for him.
- [36:28]
Dr. Jess Venner
Oh, my goodness. They've all got their daggers in their togas. Exactly. And you know, we think that they got them in through with the little boxes they used to keep their writing tablets in. They're wax writing tablets.
- [36:39]
Host
Wait, so I didn't know this. They're not supposed to be armed in there. No, that makes sense. Of course they shouldn't be. Yeah. Yeah, but I hadn't thought about that.
- [36:46]
Dr. Jess Venner
No. And they'd chosen lots of, they'd considered lots of different places for this to happen, you know, including at a gladiator match, for example. But the key thing was that they knew that the other senators that weren't in on the conspiracy wouldn't be armed. And so they couldn't do anything about defending him. And so they've taken their daggers in under the, you know, the idea that they won't be able to. There's nothing they can do. Wow. Yeah. So the second blow hits him in the chest. This is supposed to be the one that was fatal. And then Brutus goes for him and apparently stabs him in the groin. And they say this is because he. Of his. Yeah, exactly.
- [37:26]
Host
His always comes back to mums, doesn't it, really?
- [37:28]
Dr. Jess Venner
It's very Freudian, Yes. And then, yeah, Caesar kept turning, he's trying to get away and then when he sees the, that it's Brutus, he apparently covers his face with his toga, he's sort of defeated at that moment. So it's a really sort of sad. Yeah, sad end to a man.
- [37:46]
Host
Something quite pathetic. And I don't necessarily mean that in a. Oh, that's pathetic. I mean it in, like the grandiose existence that he had had and that he was building up until that point. And then there's something about the covering of the face, but at the same time there's also something about preserving dignity in that, where he's going, you're not going to see my face in this situation because it's going to probably get quite gruesome. And you don't need to see that.
- [38:27]
Dr. Jess Venner
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- [38:43]
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- [39:09]
Host
It is at this point that he apparently says, according to Shakespeare, et tu, Brute? But. But there actually is a bit of a historical source for this. So even though those are not the words that he supposedly said, that he said something slightly similar. Right.
- [39:26]
Dr. Jess Venner
So he's actually supposed to have spoken Greek and said, you too, my child.
- [39:30]
Host
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Dr. Jess Venner
And some people have even started questioning, oh, no, he can't have been his child because, you know, Philia, it wasn't the right timing, blah, blah, blah. I don't think that's what he meant. I think he had put a lot of emphasis into these and time into these people and saw them as his children. This was part of his. Again, a part of his magnanimous ruler. He. He's a, you know, a really good guy, supposedly. And again, this is being reported later, so he may or may not have said that, but I think it's a very. It's very like, it tugs at the heartstrings a bit because he sort of sees him and he's like, oh, my God, it's you as well. So it's really sad. But yeah, no. Shakespeare then made it into Latin to Bruta.
- [40:11]
Host
It's also just human, I think, and it's one of the reasons why the story endures so much of the history endures so much because it gives voice in a moment of extreme downfall. It allows, even if it's not true, it allows a glimpse into what the inner workings of this person, this great person might have been, or in the eyes of some people, this great person might have been. And so, again, it's this idea of getting as close as possible to this idea of greatness at the moment of death, I think, that fascinates people because it's such a strange moment to find oneself in. I have an image here as we do on After Dark, and it is to help to portray the scene, but for from 1806, so we have jumped quite forward into my time period, actually. And what we have is. Well, we have a very dramatic scene of senators surrounding the figure of Julius Caesar, who's half on the ground. He is wearing his. Is he wearing his crown of laurels? Yes, he is. And the knives are drawn. Some of them can't look at him. That's interesting. Although some are really staring at him quite intently. But it's as if they almost can't look at the level of power that he's experiencing. Then there's others, as you mentioned, Jess, this is really interesting, that are kind of cowering away that are not armed and they're clearly not necessarily part of this. There is also something I've just noticed happening in the very back left of that image.
- [41:39]
Dr. Jess Venner
It looks like they're having a kiss.
- [41:40]
Host
It does look like they're having a kiss. There's the one very burly man. And then just. I don't know who that is.
- [41:47]
Dr. Jess Venner
I think it's Mark Antony.
- [41:50]
JustWorks Advertiser
Ah.
- [41:50]
Dr. Jess Venner
Mark Antony was being distracted on purpose because they knew that he would fight to the death for Caesar at this point. And so he was famously being distracted. It does look like he's being distracted in quite an interesting way.
- [42:02]
Host
I'm sure maybe he was.
- [42:03]
Dr. Jess Venner
I love it.
- [42:03]
Host
Whatever is going to. Whatever's going to do the distraction, that'll do it, that'll definitely do it. But it is an epic scene. It's very colorful. It is. So this is from, as I said, 1806. Hannah, how true to the actual situation do you think? I mean, obviously we can't know for sure, but from your perspective as an expert in this particular area and era, how true do you think this image might be to what happened?
- [42:29]
Dr. Jess Venner
Do you know, I actually do think this is quite good, this one. The color's interesting because the togas, that wouldn't really happen. But I think the way that he's lying on the floor and reaching out, he's not. This point at the point of defeat, he's not being depicted there. He's reaching out to them in sort of a plea almost. He's Also at the bottom of a statue of Pompey.
- [42:54]
Host
Yes.
- [42:55]
Dr. Jess Venner
And again, this is like, this was supposed to be exactly where he died. And you know, the red in this is probably harking to the blood that his blood stained Toga's that were later toga that was later paraded around the Forum and showed to the people which got them in such a frenzy. But also his blood was supposed to hurt, have stained the floor as well. So at the bottom of Pompey's statue. And obviously again, Pompey was a rival and you know, he'd seen him off, so it was really, really, really important that he was depicted here. But we've also, we're seeing the chaos and the shock and the surprise and people are covering their faces and they're just completely thrown off. Whereas the other people, I think the ones that, you know, the conspirators are sort of, you know, they've done the blow and then they're like, oh, oh,
- [43:43]
Host
yeah, yes, there's a few of that going on. This is big. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:48]
Dr. Jess Venner
It's almost like, oh my God, we've done it.
- [43:49]
Host
A feeling for the moment.
- [43:51]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:52]
Host
Now, at the outset of this, we talked about there being uncertainty around kingship and this idea that we could be going back to some form of monarchy that we're really unhappy with. And this led us then to this moment where we're going, right, Julius Caesar has been murdered in order to prevent this type of all encompassing power in one person. So the aim is quite bizarrely, absolutely not achieved, despite the fact that he is killed. Because what is the outcome of this, Jess?
- [44:25]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah, so almost immediately he's again given all these amazing things following his death. So as I mentioned, they take his bloodstained toga out at of the house that they were meeting in the Senate House or Pompeii Theater, and they, they show it to the people. And the people are begin writing because they're so devastated that this decision has been taken out of their hands partly, but also because they've taken away a leader who actually had their best interests at heart. He is cremated in the Forum. And if you go to the Forum today, you can go to that spot because it was later marked with a temple for him and he was later deified. There was a comet that went over and of course that was taken as sign, you know, of Julius having ascended to the heavens. So there were lots of different things that were being given to him in the fact that he was deified is like the pinnacle of those honors, you know. Augustus doing that.
- [45:24]
Host
But it also marks the fall of the republic.
- [45:28]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yes. Why are we. I was forgetting that.
- [45:30]
Host
No, no, that's fine. You're allowed to forget that. I want to know about the deification. I absolutely do. But they had wanted to preserve this. But actually, what we see as the rise of empire.
- [45:41]
Dr. Jess Venner
Right, Exactly. I think they realized that actually it was an empire without the name of an empire. They were calling it a republic, but it really wasn't. It was getting too big. It was getting too spread out. They needed one person, really, to. To bring that all together in a way. Okay. The senators weren't gonna enjoy that, but there's 600 of them. There's a lot of other people to manage. And there's been chaos for years and years and years. You know, in the east, for example, Pompey sorted that out. But he was one person, you know, and he came back and he had a triumph and reminded them all that this is the result of one person being able to take that control. And, no, it didn't turn out great, because we know what the later emperors were like. They were a pain. But Julius had shown that this was. Was the way, really. I think that was unavoidable at this stage. Yeah.
- [46:31]
Host
So who sees his power next? Just so we have it in our minds. That's a whole other episode, of course, but, like, who is next in line in that sense?
- [46:39]
Dr. Jess Venner
So his heir was Octavian, and he became an incredibly, incredibly good general. And he was in Caesar's will. So he ends up inheriting a huge amount of wealth. Right. And there's a lot that goes on afterwards. You've got Brutus, for example, trying. He's releasing coins with the daggers on it and the Ides of March and talking about that. But then it doesn't really go that well because everyone's like, I don't know. It wasn't great.
- [47:06]
Host
I didn't enjoy it.
- [47:07]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah, it wasn't great. And also, he's trying to take power in a way, in his own way, and he's trying to preserve this republic. That's definitely not gonna happen. Then we've got Mark Antony trying to do that, but then he falls out with Octavian, and then, famously, Octavian defeats him and Cleopatra, and then Octav becomes Augustus and the first official emperor of
- [47:31]
Host
Rome, claiming to have restored the Republic. Right. This is his kind of mo. But obviously, we're in a. Because he's Augustus, we're in a very different era of this now.
- [47:43]
Dr. Jess Venner
Exactly.
- [47:44]
Host
Remarkable. Now, come here. Before we finish, we talked about the 23rd of April being a very important day in the life of Dr. Jess Venner. We have the Lost Voices of Pompeii on its way out. How are you feeling about that? And where can people find a little bit more about that book and about you if they want to pre order, which of course they will.
- [48:01]
Dr. Jess Venner
Oh my God, I'm so excited, I can't tell you. So, yes, the Lost Voices of Pompeii is about seven people in the city that actually lived there. I've reconstructed their days from the archaeological evidence, so they're ordinary people, but also politicians as well. And there's all sorts going on before the eruption of Vesuvius. And yes, it's out on the 23rd of April. You can pre order now on pretty much every good bookstore.
- [48:22]
Host
All the. All the forever. You get stuff that you read.
- [48:25]
Dr. Jess Venner
Exactly, yes. Every good bookstore. And also, I've just recorded the audiobook.
- [48:29]
Host
You did it. Oh, now look, that's a treat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can listen to Jess.
- [48:33]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah. So I hope people enjoy that and Kindle as well, of course. And if you want to hear more about it, I'm on social media as well, so I'm lifinthepastlane.
- [48:42]
Host
Great score. Great appendall.
- [48:44]
Dr. Jess Venner
I was really pleased with that one.
- [48:45]
Host
Glad you got that one. Amazing. Thank you as always for listening and watching After Dark. If you, if you're listening on podcast, did you know that we do have a YouTube channel? You can go over and find us on YouTube. Subscribe and watch what you've been listening to for the last two years. It was such an incredible chat, Jess, so thank you for sharing it with us. Until next time, happy watching, Happy listening. We'll see you again soon.
- [49:18]
Dr. Jess Venner
Knock knock.
- [49:19]
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Ooh, who's there?
- [49:20]
Dr. Jess Venner
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Boost Mobile Advertiser
You called that a knock knock joke?
- [49:28]
Dr. Jess Venner
This isn't a joke. Boost mobile really sends experts to deliver and set up your phone at home or work.
- [49:32]
Host
Okay.
- [49:33]
Boost Mobile Advertiser
It's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.
- [49:36]
Dr. Jess Venner
Like I said, this isn't a joke.
- [49:37]
Boost Mobile Advertiser
So the knock knock was just you knocking?
- [49:40]
Dr. Jess Venner
Yeah, that's how doors work.
- [49:41]
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