← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
Loading summary
Transcript107 lines
- [00:00]
Outback Steakhouse Announcer
Consider this your sign to skip the what's for dinner debate. Tonight, Outback steakhouse has a three course meal starting at just $14.99. Start with soup or salad, then take your pick of down under entrees like our juicy Towering Burger or Flame Grilled Shrimp and for dessert, New york style cheesecake plus $8 cocktails all day, every day. Three courses starting at $14.99. Tell the group chat. You'll see them at Outback, but price and participation may vary.
- [00:31]
Annabe Sofa Advertiser
Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. At WashablesOfAs.com, discover Annabe sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
- [01:30]
Dr. Horton Homes Advertiser
Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you located. Learn more @ Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity Builder.
- [02:04]
Maddie
Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie. And I'm Anthony, and in today's episode, we'll be asking the question, who was ancient Rome's darkest emperor? Now there are, of course, a few candidates, but today we're jumping straight to that depraved megalomaniac Caligula.
- [02:26]
Anthony
Under the heat of the Roman sun and the shocked hush of onlookers, once noblemen robed in senatorial purple, now knelt on all fours, stripped of dignity, confined in iron cages barely large enough to allow them draw breath, they are reduced to quivering animals. And what, you may ask, was the crime that had laid them so low? Naught more than a careless remark about a gladiator display and a failure to swear loyalty to the Emperor's divine spirit. And so their fate was sealed. Others fared even worse, dragged into the arena not to fight, but to serve as examples. Some were branded, some thrown to wild beasts. Some, Caligula ordered to be sawn in half, a method of execution so brutal, so slow, it was spoken of in hushed tones even amongst Rome's hardened executioners. There had been no trials, no charges systematically laid out as we might have expected. No defense offered. Caligula did not need reasons to be cruel, only whims. And Rome watched in silence. If they were appalled, it only strengthened his resolve. Let them hate me, he once spat between gritted teeth, so they but fear me. And so Caligula's cruelty was not hidden. Instead, it was staged, ritualized, normalized. Today, we enter the long, dark shadow of absolute power, where the boundary between man and monster vanishes and terror wears a laurel crown. This is After Dark. And this is the history of Rome's dark, darkest emperor.
- [04:35]
Maddie
Hello, and welcome back to After Dark. Now, as with any history, the further we get from it, the more chance there is that its horrors are, I suppose, lost to us. Or at the very least, their sharp edges soften from focus. But today, we're going right back in time to the dark side of ancient Rome to get to know perhaps its darkest emperor, Caligula. Helping us get to know this tyrant is Rome based historian and travel writer, Alex Meddings. Alex, welcome to After Dark.
- [05:01]
Alex Meddings
Hello. Thank you for having me on.
- [05:03]
Maddie
We're so happy to have you. Now, I don't want to dive straight in with the pseudo psychology, but. But I do think it's fascinating that Caligula has something of a messed up childhood, I think it's fair to say. So let's start at the beginning of his story. And what is so wrong with those early years?
- [05:22]
Alex Meddings
So Caligula is born in the year 12, which is the penultimate year of the reign of Rome's first emperor, Augustus. And Augustus has come to power after about 100 years of civil war and the fall of the Roman Republic. Caligula is part of the aristocracy. He's part of a family which is kind of Rome's celebrity family of the age, the golden couple. His parents are a man called Germanicus and his mother is called Agrippina, Agrippina the Elder. And they're very much the kind of Potenbecks of the age, only with more military heft. And from a young age, Caligula is paraded around the provinces while his father is away on military missions. And so he spends his infant years in Germany, where he becomes a darling, a mascot of the camp of the legions. And he's dressed up in a little legionary outfit and paraded in front of all the soldiers. Part of this outfit are the kaligas that he has to wear these boots. And because they're little boots, they're called caligolas. So this is where he gets the nickname from.
- [06:23]
Anthony
That is so cute. Like, I'm sorry to interrupt your flow there, but, like, if. If we didn't know what was coming, little boots as a nickname is the cutest thing in the entire world.
- [06:34]
Alex Meddings
Bootykins. But you wouldn't want to be known as that, would you, if you're like a big, powerful century figure? I don't know.
- [06:39]
Anthony
People have called me worse. Alex. Sorry I interrupt. Sorry, you keep going.
- [06:45]
Alex Meddings
After he spends some time in Germany, he then moves with his family to Greece, where we're told he gives a speech at the age of six in front of a big packed out crowd of Athenians. And so he clearly has a very sharp mind. All the sources are completely inaccurate and a gift for public speaking. And then his family move on to Antioch in the ancient province of Syri, Syria. And this is where things start to go horribly wrong. So his father, Germanicus dies in Antioch. The story goes that he is poisoned by his enemies, specifically by a man called Gaius Calpurnius Piso, who was sent by the reigning emperor Tiberius to do away with him. And this kind of persecution narrative will stick throughout the reign of Caligula. Caligula very much believes that he was raised in a family that was heavily persecuted by the state, by the Emperor at the head, and also by the senators doing the Emperor's bidding and passing the laws enabling these people to be prosecuted. Whether or not Germanicus actually was poisoned is up for debate. A lot of people died in that part of the world, including a later emperor, Trajan. In fact, the woman who was accused of poisoning Germanicus died herself. So it's quite possible that this is just kind of a bout of typhoid or malaria or something going around. But nevertheless, the narrative sticks that Germanicus has been poisoned. Agrippina returns to Rome with Caligula and with his two elder brothers. And she spends the next 10 years basically shouting at Tiberius the Emperor, saying, you had my husband killed, and rallying people to her cause, which clearly doesn't go down very well with Tiberius. And so when Caligula is no more than a teenager, she is imprisoned by a figure called Sejanus, who is the Praetorian Guard working hand in hand with Tiberia. And he kind of rallies the emperor and the senators against Agrippina, has her sent to an island and imprisoned. In the same year, he has Caligula's eldest brother also imprisoned. And he will later die in exile, apparently starving to death and eating the mattress, the stuffing of his mattress, in a vain hope to stay alive. And Caligula is sent to go and live with his great grandmother Livia, who was Augustus first wife.
- [08:57]
Anthony
This is a really evocative idea that you're bringing up here, Alex, of. Actually, you talked about this kind of persecution idea, but it does seem that he was kept under thumb to a certain extent as long as Tiberius was around. And there was a lot of control going on in terms of where he can be, who he can be with, what he's allowed to do. But we know that there's a transition into power eventually. So how does that transition come about? And how does he move away from this kind of essentially house arrest position that he's in?
- [09:26]
Alex Meddings
Good question. He first moves to house arrest on the island of Capri, under Tiberius direct supervision. So Livia dies and then he goes briefly to live with his grandmother Antonia, who also then dies, and he goes then to live with Tiberius on the small island of Capri. And it's kind of during this time on Capri that Caligula is groomed for power, we're told by the machinations of the Praetorian Prefect, a figure called Macro, who becomes the prefect after Sejanus, the previous prefect, falls from grace when he tries to move against Tiberius and ends up getting executed. So Macro grooms Caligula for power. Apparently, one of the ways he does this is he sort of prostitutes his own wife and he gives his own wife over to Caligula, and so they can form this kind of infernal threesome together, which will, I don't know, bring Macro and his wife closer to the centre of power. And after about 10 years, or slightly less than that, actually, in the year 37, Tiberius eventually snuffs it back on the mainland, not far from modern day Naples, after living a particularly, if we believe the sources, debauched life over on Capri, where all sorts of dark things go on.
- [10:39]
Maddie
Alex, you mentioned Macro there. And first of all, for anyone who doesn't know, can you explain what a prefect is in this context? But also he is implicated in quite serious ways in the rise of power. There's a suggestion that he's not just making his wife sexually available, but that he is committing certain violent acts on behalf of Caligula. So can you speak a little bit to that?
- [11:01]
Alex Meddings
Yes. So the Praetorian Prefect is essentially the head of the Praetorian Guard, and the Praetorian Guard are the personal bodyguard of the emperor. And they play a really fundamental role in imperial history because they're the only armed guard that are allowed in the city of Rome. And so what they say goes, and we'll see this with the death of Caligula and the accession of his uncle Claudius, that basically the Senate can dream whatever they want. They can dream about the restoration of a Republic. That's fine, but if you don't have the swords and the military heft, nothing's going to get done. So the Praetorians are often the ones who prop up an emperor, put an emperor in power, and then when they tie over an emperor, they do away with him. The question about the role that Macro plays in Caligula's rise to power. There are stories that Macro has Tiberius murdered, but Tiberius dies in his 70s. He's been in ill health for quite a long time. Whether or not Macro gives him the final coup de grace is something we'll never really know. But whether or not Macro is driving a lot of the violence that takes place on Capri, we don't know. But we do know that a lot of violence does take place on Capri. There are lots of executions for people who are conspiring against Tiberius. Tiberius launches a lot of what we call maestas or treason trials, and is said to execute people in very, very horrible ways. One of which is making them jump off, or rather walk off, something called Tiberius, leap and fall into the sea from a very great height on the vill.
- [12:29]
Maddie
Creative.
- [12:31]
Anthony
I wanna know what has placed Macro in this position? Why is he able to move these power players, even if he's not doing the killing and the getting rid of Tiberius? Why has Caligula been aligned with him? Or has he chosen Caligula? And what position in society is he occupying that has allowed him to do this? I think, yeah, it comes back to what Matti was saying about that role of the pre.
- [12:59]
Alex Meddings
It's very much that Macro has chosen Caligula. Macro sees in Caligula somebody that the Roman people can rally behind, someone who's going to bring him incredible personal benefit. A large reason for this is because of bloodlines. So Caligula is related to Augustus through his mother matrilineal line, and bloodlines are fundamental in early imperial history. It's all about whether you can claim blood descendancy from Rome's first emperor. And so Macro knows that with this bloodline and with the prestige that Germanicus and Agrippina wielded, there's no doubt Caligula will make a successful emperor. There's no doubt he'll become emperor if Macro says so, and he gets the praetorians and the soldiers to acclaim him.
- [13:44]
Maddie
In classic Roman style. Alex, I think what we have is this very intimate family drama with these little exterior players coming in and out of that sort of almost domestic setting. But of course, this is a family drama that's playing out on a scale that's going to impact the whole Roman Empire. Just wondering at this point, what do the public. What do the Roman public make of Caligula? Is he a popular choice or is he someone who's just been brought in? You mentioned that he's got the very legitimate bloodline claim to Augustus, but is that enough for the Romans to accept him at this moment in time, at.
- [14:16]
Alex Meddings
Least our sources suggest it is. So Caligula is very much kept out of the public eye until he becomes Emperor in the year 37 at the age of 25. And then he's brought very immediately into the public eye. So after Tiberius death, he's brought into Rome and he does all of the right things at the beginning of his reign. His reign starts off brilliantly. He is very much the golden boy, the prince that was promised. So he starts by showering the people with gold, putting on spectacles, reintroducing literature banned under Tiberius. He marches into the Senate House and he says, fathers, which is, as you would address the Senate at the time, fathers, I promise to be your son and your ward, and I promise to let you guide and govern me. So he's engaging in this double speak which exists in Roman imperial politics, in which the Emperor pretends not to be the emperor, but he pretends to be the first among equals and that the Senate really hold the power, when in reality they don't. So he does all the right things. He even claims to burn all of this incriminating evidence that Tiberius was holding on Capri, which could have done in for some of the senators in the Senate at the time. But Caligula says there will be no return to these treason trials. I will get rid of all this evidence. And he does burn copies.
- [15:47]
Nissan Advertiser
You won't see the engineer that slams the Nissan Rogue's door 13,920 times, or the corrosive chamber that simulates 15 years of life in five months or the Rogue heat baked for over 300 combined hours. What you will see is a vehicle that can take punch after punch and keep rolling. Nissan number one in new vehicle quality among mainstream brands by JD Power. We put it through the worst so you get its best for J.D. power 2025 U.S. initial Quality Study Award information, visit J.D. power.com awards awards space on 2025 model year and your models may be shown.
- [16:17]
Maddie
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
- [16:19]
Lifelock Advertiser
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
- [16:23]
Maddie
Could you be more specific?
- [16:24]
Lifelock Advertiser
When it's cray venient okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.
- [16:33]
Maddie
I'm seeing a pattern here.
- [16:35]
Alex Meddings
Well yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [16:36]
Outback Steakhouse Announcer
Crave, which is anything from am, pm.
- [16:38]
Anthony
What more could you want?
- [16:40]
Lifelock Advertiser
Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience am PM Too much good stuff. Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers, and sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.
- [16:56]
Alex Meddings
I need a coffee.
- [16:57]
Lifelock Advertiser
And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com specialoffer terms apply.
- [17:17]
National Debt Relief Advertiser
Do you have $10,000 or more in credit card debt? Maybe you're even barely getting by making minimum payments. With credit card debt hitting record highs, National Debt Relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up. These options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify, you don't need to declare bankruptcy, and you may be able to pay back less than you owe regardless of your credit. National Debt Relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than 550,000 consumers. So don't wait if you owe 10, 20, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. You can now take advantage of this financial debt relief as the cost of living increases. To find out how much you could save, visit nationaldebtrelief.com that's nationaldebtrelief.com.
- [18:14]
Anthony
I love that when you said one of the ways in which he was kind of winning people over was by putting on spectacles because in my head I was like, what's so great about glasses in the ancient world that he has won them over? And that thought lasted for a good 10 seconds, until I was like, wait, Anthony, this is not what he's saying. Now, I. I have a description here of Caligula, which I think is quite interesting. I'm going to read it out and then we'll have a quick discussion about it. It says he was very tall and extremely pale, with an unshapely body and a very thin neck and legs. His eyes and temples were hollow, his forehead broad and grim. Good Lord. His hair thin and entirely gone on top of his head. So we're not. I don't want to cast any aspersions, but we're not potentially talking about a sex symbol here, Alex.
- [18:59]
Alex Meddings
No. And of course, if you look at any of the portraiture from his reign or the court coins, you don't see that kind of sunken eyes and the receding hairline. They all kind of look like kind of buff Jim Bros with decent hairlines.
- [19:12]
Maddie
I have to say, this very tall and extremely pale version is like. He sounds like exactly the kind of person I would have fancied when I was, like, 16.
- [19:20]
Anthony
But good for me.
- [19:21]
Alex Meddings
He's an emo.
- [19:22]
Maddie
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sold on this completely. But it is interesting because I think it's quite hard to get to who Caligula is as a person. I mean, you talked, Alex, about the narrative of him as a child and whether we can get to the truth of that. I mean, we probably never will be able to, but the kind of. He was this great orator at the age of. I think you said six or seven, that he is this sort of charismatic, interesting child. And then he has this physicality as he's an adult that isn't perhaps that appealing, certainly in terms of, like, I guess, Roman beauty standards and especially Roman masculinity. So is he still charismatic? Is that what's carrying him in this world, this charisma?
- [20:02]
Alex Meddings
It's more bloodlines, and I think it's more just among at least the common people, the plebeian masses. It's more just not wanting to rock the boat and just wanting a regular supply of games and bread and entertainment and not having to return to civil war. In terms of Caligula's physiognomy, we really don't know what he looked like. All of the sources that describe that come from a little bit later on, and also our later sources generally are pretty awful. And One of them is Suetonius, who is a biographer who's really not interested in history, but he's interested in kind of meeting his own preconceptions of what an emperor should be. And he believes any anecdote you throw in front of him. We have a couple of contemporary sources who do describe Caligula's intense gaze and his kind of quite extreme stare. And he had a very kind of sinister expression about him. So it does seem that there is kind of. There's no smoke without fire. He was definitely a very intense smoke person. I think he was charismatic. He was no doubt bright. He had a wicked sense of humour, by which I mean a very dark sense of humour, which we'll see later on when we talk about some of the really cruel things he did. There's a lot of psychological kind of manipulation going on, but he was a great speaker, apparently. Words would pour out of him when he was giving speeches, but not in a controlled Roman way. A Roman orator should speak slowly, in measured terms, with the restrictive toga kind of holding their posture in place. Caligula's like a modern, stereotypical Italian, just, like, throwing out hand gestures all the time. But he's witty and he's bright.
- [21:38]
Anthony
That's very interesting that you say that. It's not what you would have imagined from somebody in his position at that time, because as I was looking into some of the research for this episode, that's exactly what I was thinking. I was like, this is not what I am expecting to find. This person is not doing the things that I'm expecting a person in his position to be doing. But you also mentioned Alex there, you said sinister, you mentioned dark. And so let's start to go in that direction now, because that's why we are all assembled here. Tell us how things start to go from this person who is, you know, somewhat, if not celebrated, although probably celebrated, accepted, to then things taking a bit of a darker turn.
- [22:17]
Alex Meddings
So the first few months of his reign go really well, and then Caligula falls sick. One eyewitness account suggests this might have been a mental breakdown brought on by all of the stress of ruling an empire without any prayer preparation. But it seems that he falls sick, he nearly dies. And while all of this is going on, Macro and the other big players in the Senate start prepping somebody else for the throne. They start prepping Caligula's kind of co ruler, Tiberius grandson, a young teenager or kind of a boy called Tiberius Gemellus. And when Caligula recovers, he very Swiftly has Gemellus executed, or rather a praetorian goes to Gemellus and gives him a sword. And Gamelas says, what am I meant to do with this? Because he's so young, he doesn't understand how to properly commit suicide. And then Caligula has Macro taken out and he has some other senators done away with. So this is the first of three major conspiracies. And this is when things start to turn, because Caligula realizes actually all of this stuff the Senate say about worshipping the ground he walks on and this, you know, someone descended from Augustus can do no wrong. We would never wish to get rid of s actually turns out that the first opportunity they'll do away with him and move on to the next person.
- [23:36]
Maddie
I'm going to go back to the pseudo psychology now, so bear with me. But I'm really interested in the idea that he sort of turns on, yes, obvious enemies. For example, Tiberius Gemellus, the other possible person to take the throne in this moment. But the fact that he turns on Macro is so fascinating. He obviously feels so kind of isolated and threatened that he cannot trust anyone. Talk to me then, Alex, about how Caligula views himself. What's his sense of self like at this moment? Because it sort of goes off the graph a bit, doesn't it?
- [24:09]
Alex Meddings
It really does. And as I mentioned before, it's very difficult to get any sense of the real Caligula and certainly how he saw himself, because our sources are so distorted and they're written by precisely the people that he persecuted throughout his reign. But my sense is that when Macro is killed, his restraining influence is removed and then the only people he has to turn to are his sisters. So both older brothers are dead, his mother is dead by this point, he has three younger sisters who have survived. He's particularly close to one of them, a sister called Drusilla.
- [24:45]
Anthony
And when you say particularly close, Alex.
- [24:50]
Alex Meddings
Right. Well, if we want to believe Suetonius and our more scandalous sources, he was caught in flagrantia with her when they were both no more than infants, really, when they were like five, six, seven years old. And they would also regularly took a turn.
- [25:05]
Maddie
I was not expecting.
- [25:07]
Anthony
Oh, yeah, I'm actually going to choose not to believe that then. I think that's ridiculous.
- [25:12]
Alex Meddings
I'll give another one then. How about at banquets, he would spit roast himself between his sisters and his wife of the time. He had four wives in total, so they would kind of take it in turns in a kind of modern, ancient form of a Spit roast. And he would be in the middle, one would be on top, one would be below, and some poor slave would be cleaning up afterwards.
- [25:32]
Anthony
Presumably it was far from spit roasts. I was rare. Let me just say that this is shocking me to my very core. But such was the ancient world, I suppose.
- [25:42]
Maddie
Yeah.
- [25:43]
Alex Meddings
This is what Suetonius, I think, imagined in his more kind of fervent dreams, went on behind the closed doors of the imperial palace.
- [25:50]
Anthony
This is the thing. Right. We need to kind of place that, as you keep saying, this is what Suetonius is. This is what you're saying. This is what he imagined. We don't necessarily know that there's any contemporaneous factual support for any of that.
- [26:03]
Alex Meddings
Right.
- [26:04]
Anthony
This is all something that's done afterwards.
- [26:05]
Alex Meddings
On the contrary, I think we have pretty good evidence it didn't happen because we have a contemporary author called Seneca. He was a great Stoic philosopher, later tutor to the Emperor Nero, and he was involved with one, possibly two of Caligula's sisters, for which he was banished. But Seneca makes no mention of this and he really doesn't like Caligula. He's got an axe to grind with him, but he mentions nothing about incest and totally would have done if there was any grain of truth.
- [26:30]
Maddie
Yeah. That's so compelling, isn't it? People, though, do as you say. Seneca's not the only person to have an axe to grind in terms of Caligula's behaviour, how he presents himself. And I'm thinking in particular about how Caligula really not only goes against the grain of what Roman masculinity should be in terms of how he holds himself, how he presents himself, but also he declares himself a God, doesn't he? And he actually has. Is it statues of various gods sort of remade in his own image, like the actual heads of these statues are replaced as him. I mean, that must have pissed a lot of people off. Right.
- [27:04]
Alex Meddings
This is the narrative. Yeah. So we can be fairly certain that he tried to install his statue in a temple, but this temple was in Jerusalem. And the narrative is written by Jewish sources and it's like, oof. That was a diplomatic and political blunder of enormous proportion, but there's no real evidence he tried to declare himself a God in Rome. Being worshipped as a God throughout the east of the Roman Empire was quite common. Being worshipped in various municipalities throughout Italy. That could happen as well, but it tended to happen once an emperor died. But there's not a lot of evidence that Ciligli was worshipped as a God, rather. And this is a really difficult distinction to make, even for ancients, so never mind for us. Divine aspects of his character were worshipped, like his genius, as they called it, or his numen, his godhead. But he wasn't worshipped as a God per se. He did, however, we think, dress up as a God quite a lot. Caligula loved dressing up and he loved cross dressing. I think this is accurate.
- [28:01]
Maddie
Very interesting.
- [28:02]
Anthony
You're going to dislike me for asking this question, but I kind of have to. Now that you've said this, I'm thinking, and please forgive me for thinking this as you're describing, this kind of cross dressing and this quasi, shall we say, God like status that I'm thinking in terms of Gladiator 2, and that the kind of representation of that power at that strata, there's some crossover there. Do we know if there's anything to be said about that? Or is it just. Is it just whatever.
- [28:32]
Alex Meddings
No, I think you're spot on. I mean, if you're referring to the kind of two evil emperors in Gladiator 2, Kanakanaghetta, they draw heavily on Caligula. So the idea of. Of looking very pale and dressing up very elaborately, the idea of shock. So they really like to shock and they really like to torment the poor senate. And then I think in Gladiator 2, one of them, Catacalla, has a pet monkey, which he tries to make a consul, in the same way that Caligula is accused of trying to make his horse Incaatus a consul, which I have no doubt was nothing more than a joke that's been taken massively out of context along the lines of, well, I might as well make my horse a consul. You guys are so useless.
- [29:11]
Anthony
Yes.
- [29:11]
Alex Meddings
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:12]
Maddie
And it comes back to what you said about his sort of weird sense of humour that is obviously very dark at times, but also maybe people just didn't really fully grasp it at the time. Talking of sense of humour, one of the things that I've read about Caligula is that he launches various military campaigns, including trying to invade Britain, he sends the troops all the way to the French coast and then when they get there, calls it off and says, go and collect some shells as your spoils of war. Is this true? Because, I mean, that's hilarious and outrageous.
- [29:37]
Alex Meddings
It is. It's one of my favorite stories from his reign, that one. Yeah. So you're quite right. In the year 40, he starts his campaigns over in Germany and then he moves up to the northern coast. Yes. The story goes, he Lines his forces up on the coast, including like siege artillery and all of this stuff. He sets out to sea on a little trireme, a little boat, and then returns very swiftly, gets back off the boat, stands up on a big platform and commands the soldiers to pick up seashells, declares victory over Neptune, Poseidon, and then orders him to march back to Rome. Ah, Laura, I think, yeah, this could be seen as an example of his madness. Right. Occam's razor. I guess the simplest explanation is, okay, he's completely mad. No emperor in his right mind would do this. Or it could be an example of a mutiny. So when Caesar, before Caesar crossed over back in the 50s BC, Julius Caesar, the soldiers nearly mutinied because the Romans were terrified of Britain. And they saw it as a kind of wild land full of druids and magic and charioteers and terrible weather. Not too different to like 28 years later, which has just come out. You know, it's like there be the infected, stay away from this island. And so if the soldiers are nearly mutinying under Julius Caesar, the great warlord, what Hope has a 28 year old, tall, lanky, pale bloke without any military experience got? So it could be a mutiny and Caligula then decides to humiliate the soldiers by getting them to pick up seashells.
- [31:03]
Maddie
And.
- [31:04]
Alex Meddings
But why would you do that if you want to survive? Imagine you've got angry soldiers and then you humiliate them further. That's like a fast track to being shanked, isn't it, by an angry soldier. And so then where are we left? Maybe it's a military drill. Maybe when he goes out to sea, he's actually receiving a British hostage and so he can go back and actually claim a victory over the sea. But actually the sea represents Britain. We fundamentally don't know. What we do know is he builds a lighthouse near where this happens. And so I suspect he was planning on invading later.
- [31:36]
Anthony
I really like all of this context. This is really good, Alex. Thank you. You're helping us get the reality from the myth.
- [31:42]
Maddie
And this is what I love so much about ancient history, in particular, as someone who works on the 18th century and has often copious amounts of written sources that these gaps and the speculation, it's so exciting and so interesting. And I think any one of those theories takes you down a different road of who Caligula is, who he's trying to be, publicly, what the people under his command think of him. Obviously you're talking about the potential there already of some kind of coup against him within the military. And things are going to take some downward spirals. They don't necessarily stay stable throughout his reign. So when do things start to go wrong for him?
- [32:19]
Alex Meddings
There are three big coups that we can discern from the sources throughout his reign, and they happen in his first year in 37, which is the one that Macro and Gemellus are involved in. There's another in 39, which his sisters, surviving sisters, are apparently involved in. Drusilla's ex husband, a guy called Lepidus, who Caligula was probably grooming as his successor before Caligula had any children of his own. And then there's another one, and it's actually one we think orchestrated by the military in Germany. And this is the one that Caligula goes to put down when he heads up north. He goes to put down a brewing military coup d'. Etat. Every time there's a conspiracy against him, things go downhill. And it seems like the climax comes in the year 40, when Caligula marches into the Senate House and he says it exactly as it is to the senators, and he goes, I know exactly what you are. You're a bunch of servile sycophants who'll say anything just to survive and pretend you have any power. But I'm not playing this game anymore. Actually, I hold the cards. I am now going to act in entirely my own interests. And this is where the quote comes from. I don't care if you hate me as long as you fear me. And then he drops the mic, so to speak, and he walks out. And the Senate replied to this by becoming even more sycophantic and dedicating a holiday to Caligula's mercy.
- [33:36]
Maddie
That's fascinating, because you talked at the beginning, Alex, about the importance of the Emperor, Caligula or otherwise, their relationship with the Senate, and that idea of presenting as all equals, even if that is not the actual system that you work and exist within. And he's completely flipped the narrative here. He's gone in and just said, as you say, kind of just said whatever's on his mind and told it the way it is. Why is their reaction. I mean, is he. How terrifying is he to these people? I mean, you've kind of hinted at some of the darker things that he's done, but let's get into that, because I just can't see why the Senate at this point wouldn't be like, I'm sorry, what? You're going in the bin like, that's enough of you. What's going on.
- [34:14]
Alex Meddings
He's very scary. And so it's at this point that he starts to what I interpret as inflicts psychological torture upon the senators. So you get stories like he will invite three men of consular rank, so the three most senior senators in the land, to the Imperial palace in the middle of the night. He'll have them bought, their underarmed guard, and then he'll make them sit on a wooden bench in the dark, waiting for their throats to be cut. Only instead of that happening, Caligula will appear dressed up in kind of performance dress, holding castanets with some flute girls in the background. And he'll perform a dance and a bit of a sing song and then he'll send the senators back home. It's just messing with them. I think he's basically, I mean, again, this has been interpreted as his madness, but I like to think of it as basically, this is sinister stuff. This is going I control your sleeping schedule, I control your life. And I'm gonna make you just witness these spectacles, which I'm just going to kind of inflict upon you. You.
- [35:27]
Casey from Casefile Podcast
Hi, I'm Casey, host of the Casefile Podcast. Today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. With Boost Mobile, you get nationwide coverage and fast network speeds at a fraction of the price. Why pay more for the same great service? Unlimited plans start at just $25 a month and you won't be sacrificing coverage to save. So why wait? Start saving with with Boost today. The Boost Mobile network, together with their roaming partners, covers 99% of the US population. 5G speeds not available in all areas. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find us online@boostmobile.com money back guarantee. Try boost mobile risk free for 30 days. If you don't like us, you get your money back. Requires port in and autopay. Customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable. And phone payments will not be refunded.
- [36:49]
Maddie
Only Boost Mobile. Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.
- [36:54]
Alex Meddings
New 5G phone enough.
- [36:56]
Dr. Horton Homes Advertiser
But I'm your hype man.
- [36:57]
Lifelock Advertiser
When you purchase an eligible device, you.
- [36:58]
Alex Meddings
Get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Tax is extra for the device and service plan online only.
- [37:15]
Anthony
There's this idea then that he is despite the fear that he might be inducing amongst the senators. There's also this idea that we're getting to a point, though, where there's going to be some form of pushback. And when it does come, it actually comes relatively. You know, we've been talking about his time as emperor, but that only lasts four years because very quickly he is assassinated, right?
- [37:39]
Alex Meddings
Mm. He's afraid of conspiracies, he's paranoid about conspiracies throughout his reign. This is where a lot of the executions and the murders come from. You would think with the reign of Caligula that the list of senators who was killed would be like as long as a Leonard Cohen song. Right. It's actually quite short. But those who were killed, we're pretty sure, were involved in conspiracy, or Caligula just suspects them of conspiring against him. Ultimately, though, he was justified. Right. I mean, his suspicions were confirmed because he was ultimately done away with in a conspiracy. And so this takes us to the year 41. The events are a little bit garbled. The narrative is very garbled. We have several sources, but they're all kind of conflicting in the detail. But we can roughly reconstruct that Caligula is attending some games on the Palatine Hill in a temporarily erected theatre. And he's had a really lovely morning. He's been watching all the senators and the common people squabble, like, kind of fight for seats because he's purposely removed all the senatorial seating privileges, so they're all just, like, fighting amongst each other. He's been having a jolly good laugh at that, as are presumably all of the plebeians who were there gathered to watch. And he retreats to the palace around lunchtime to go and get something to eat because his stomach's a bit funny. He also seems to have been riddled with lots of physical ailments throughout his life, and to take a shower to essentially use the baths before returning in the afternoon. And on his way inside, he's stopped by none other than the Praetorian Prefect, who is a man called Cassius Caereia. And Caerea's got a bit of a bone to pick with Caligula, because Caligula constantly takes the mickey out of Kyria's effeminacy. So apparently Kyria, despite being a big buff gym bro, has a little bit of an effeminate voice. He's got a very high pitched voice. And so whenever Kaire asks Caligula for the watchword for the password of the day to give to the military, Caligula will reply with something really cheeky, like Priapus, like the ancient God with the massive raging pardon. Or like Venus, instead of, like, a serious word, like Jupiter, or strength and honour, that kind of thing. And so the stories kind of go that there's a call and response. Chaerea asks Caligula for the watchword. Caligula gives an answer, and then Chaerea gives a final retort and then, like, slashes him around the face or, like, stabs him. But depending on which version, the watchword Caligula gives is something really offensive, the ancient equivalent of, like, dickhead or something like that. Or there's also one version I really like, which is one in which Chaerea fluffs his lines. And so Caligula says, jupiter. Kyrea says, and so your vow shall be fulfilled. And there's like, a momentary awkward pause. And then Cherea slashes him. It's like when a waiter says, enjoy your meal. Nowadays, you say, thanks, you too. And then he stabs Caligula to death.
- [40:25]
Maddie
I love the idea that the only way out of that awkward situation was just slash him. He's got to go like, that's too embarrassing. It's mortifying. We'll have to kill him.
- [40:31]
Alex Meddings
Wow. Exactly. I mean, assassins suffer from the same social embarrassment. And so Kyrie Olivia shanks him, and then a bunch of other conspirators get involved and kind of butcher his corpse. There's alleged genital mutilation. One source. And again, this illustrates how garbled the sources are. One source says that they ate his flesh. Pretty sure they didn't have disposable barbecues, for sure.
- [40:54]
Maddie
Yeah. But to be honest, Alex, at this point nothing's gonna surprise me, so. Sure, why not? Yeah.
- [41:01]
Alex Meddings
And then that's it. So the Praetorians kind of run amok throughout the palace. There's a bit of a fight with Caligula's other bodyguard called the German Guard, who he handpicked as, like, really big, strong, strapping guys from Germany. The people, interestingly, are quite angry about this, and they protested the games and then they take to the Roman Forum to say, what's going on? Why is he being killed? So, again, that reveals that he actually had quite a lot of public support. It's the senators that hated him.
- [41:27]
Anthony
We have a much later 19th century rendering of this moment. It's suitably Shakespearean. We have Claude behind a curtain, so what else could it be? But, Maddie, in Time Honoured After Dark tradition, do you want to tell us what's happening in that image?
- [41:43]
Maddie
Sure. Okay, so this is a painting called, I believe, a Roman emperor Death of caligula, painted in 1871 by Purephyllite adjacent artist Lawrence Alma Tadema. And it's very kind of classic Tadema, where you could almost reach through the canvas and touch that cool, smooth marble. Like it's completely gorgeous. And I'm kind of distracted by the interior. There's a. There's this sort of amazing marble and mosaic floor. There's beautiful kind of wall paintings behind. But we do have the Praetorian Prefect pulling back the curtain, obviously still suffering from his social anxiety and embarrassment. And on the floor, crumpled under the weight of this sort of enormously elaborate costume that he's got on. These fabulous. Are they green heeled boots? I mean, gorgeous slippers. Yeah, they're delightful. Yeah. Stunning is the emperor himself, Killigulain. He's on the floor, he's crumpled, he's dead. There's some blood of his that interestingly has been kind of smeared on this pure white statue behind, which is quite sort of cinematic. And then to the left of this scene is the public, I suppose everyone who's come to see this scene heating up their barbecues and ready to eat him. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, it's a very sort of Shakespearean moment. It sort of reminds me of the curtain being drawn back. It's quite sort of Hamlet esque. Right. It feels very sort of theatrical in terms of. Of that framing. But I think it does capture. Yeah, that moment, the drama of it. The Praetorian Prefect is. He's still in motion from the slashing. He's kind of. His body's bent double. And the moment of this murder is still kind of playing out in the painting that we see. So, yeah, dramatic and exciting. What is the sort of long term aftermath then, Alex, of this? Because you mentioned this kind of immediate outrage, this panic, the Praetorian Guards kind of taking control of the situation. I mean, that surely sets a whole other precedent then in terms of how Rome is going to be ruled, if these people can go around killing emperors and maybe replacing them. So what's the impact of this long term?
- [43:44]
Alex Meddings
Yeah, you're spot on. I think the assassination of Caligula in 41 is the last time there's ever any reasonable notion of restoring the Republic. And so while all of this commotion is going on in the palace, the senators excitedly run off to the Capitoline hill and they get together and they start discussing how they're going to restore the Republic, how they're going to take back power from the Principate and from the autocrats. They haven't got a plan, which is kind of classic of these conspiracies. They're just kind of going off vibes and whims because. Yes. Meanwhile, the Praetorians find Claudius hiding behind a curtain, as this portrait depicts. They put him on a litter and they carry him to the camp, the Praetorian camp, remnants of which still exist within the city of Rome today in a region called Castro Pretorio. And there essentially they go, right, you're not the best, but you'll do. We need a paymaster. We're not disbanding, we're on a stonking salary, we have great benefits and we need an emperor. So that's going to be you. And Claudius at sword point, basically concedes, gives them a load of money and is then installed promptly on the throne. And the Senate, because the Senate have no force of their own, have to just, just concede and go. Very good, sire. Well, all hail and Proclaudius, I suppose. Long may he prosper.
- [44:57]
Anthony
I like this idea of, I suppose because the more we look at this execution of power and the more we look at the formulation of power across whatever century, there is always this idea that there is a head, somebody at the head of that power. And what we're seeing here is actually more often than not there is this group of people just below that who are manipulating that, who are shaping that. And it seems to me in this context, that's the Praetorian Guard. In this particular case, Alex, I want to, you know, we're talking about the Dark Emperors and we're talking about these awful deeds and Caligula in particular, although Caligula is now dead. Just before we go, it would be remiss of us, I think, not to mention Nero, because we have a four year rule for Caligula. But Nero's on there for, you know, a good 13 years or so and he gets an awful lot more suffering under his belt during that time, doesn't he? So tell us a little bit about that.
- [45:51]
Alex Meddings
So, yeah, there are lots of comparisons you can draw between Nero and Caligula, at least in how they're characterized. They both seem to go in for a fair amount of family murder. So while Caligula's doing away with Tiberius Gemellus, Nero is accused of killing his mother Agrippina, who incidentally was also Caligula's younger sister and also Britannicus, who was his brother through relationship to Claudius. Both of them are big into spectacle, so they love the games. They love performing. We are told Nero famously performs on stage, which would really shocking for a Roman audience. But then so too, we're told, there's Caligula. And in fact, when Caligula was assassinated, we believe he was prepping for a big appearance on stage in some great tragedy. Lots of brutal murders, not just of senators, but also of Christians. So he blames the Christians for the great fire of Rome. They're his kind of scapegoat. And he has lots of them brutally crucified and then set on fire. So this kind of cruel tradition kind of runs through both narratives.
- [46:51]
Maddie
I think Alex will have to have you back on for an episode on Nero because there's so much to cover. And I remember watching a BBC drama years and years ago with, okay, who's the very attractive Welsh actor with the curly hair? Michael Sheen. And he played Nero and that performance. I think I watched that and I must have been far too young to be watching that. I think my parents must have thought, this is about the Romans. This'll be educational. And that tag has haunted me to this day. So we should get you and maybe Michael Sheen on to talk about Nero next time.
- [47:24]
Alex Meddings
That would be great. That'd be wonderful. You can plant some muscle and get Michael Sheen on.
- [47:28]
Maddie
Yeah, exactly. Michael Sheen, if you're listening, which we know you do, please come on. I think that's all we have time for in this episode, but thank you, Alex, so much for all of that.
- [47:37]
Alex Meddings
Thank you.
- [47:37]
Maddie
Dark information that you've shared. Absolutely fascinating stuff. And thank you very much for listening at home. If you have have ideas for future episodes. If you want to hear more from the ancient world, get in touch and email us after dark history. Hit dot com. See you next time.
- [47:59]
Lifelock Advertiser
Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.
- [48:08]
Alex Meddings
I need a coffee.
- [48:09]
Lifelock Advertiser
And you need Lifelock because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed. Or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com specialoffer terms apply. Bubba Wallace here with Tyler Reddick. You know what's more nerve wracking than waiting for qualifying results?
- [48:34]
Dr. Horton Homes Advertiser
Waiting for the green flag to drop.
- [48:36]
Lifelock Advertiser
Instead of pacing, you rev up with Chumba Casino's weekly. Weekly new releases.
- [48:40]
Dr. Horton Homes Advertiser
It's like a fresh set of tires for your brain.
- [48:43]
Lifelock Advertiser
Play for free at chumbacasino.
- [48:45]
Anthony
Com.
- [48:46]
Dr. Horton Homes Advertiser
Let's Chumba.
- [48:47]
Lifelock Advertiser
No purchase necessary.
- [48:48]
Alex Meddings
VGW Group void. We're prohibited by law. CTNCS 21+ sponsored by Chumba Casino.