Who Was Nostradamus?

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode: Who Was Nostradamus?

Hosts: Anthony Delaney & Maddy Pelling
Date: November 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling dive into the life and legacy of Nostradamus—one of history’s most enigmatic figures, often credited with predicting devastating events like the Great Fire of London, the rise of Hitler, and 9/11. The hosts unravel the real story behind Michel de Nostredame's transition from plague doctor and apothecary to famed prophet, exploring themes of science, superstition, personal tragedy, and the cultural need to believe in prophecy. The conversation is lively, skeptical, and peppered with historical insight and wry humor.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Nostradamus’s Early Life and Renaissance Education

[04:39-07:07]

• Born in 1503 as Michel de Nostredame in a Jewish family that converted to Catholicism, making him something of an outsider.
• Studied languages, mathematics, and astrology under his grandfather; later attended University of Avignon for liberal arts, and then Montpellier for medicine.
  • “He grows up, like many a Renaissance man, learning languages, mathematics and astrology from his grandfather.”—Maddy [04:39]
• At this time, astrology wasn’t considered odd; it was a respected blend of science and tradition.

2. Professional Shifts: From Doctor to Controversial Figure

[07:07-09:58]

• Pursued multiple careers: medical practice, faith healing, printing almanacs (combining calendars with astronomical data).
  • “He's involved in the printing of almanacs... suggests to me that he understands the power of getting this information out there and the power of print, actually, and spreading ideas, spreading your own agenda.”—Maddy [07:33]
• Treated plague victims in the 1530s; was expelled from Montpellier for being an apothecary, which was considered less prestigious.
• Suffered personal tragedy: lost his first wife and children to the plague.
• After expulsion and bereavement, wandered through Europe, developing interests in the occult, astrology, and herbalism.

3. Conflict with the Church and the Inquisition

[09:58-11:45]

• Faced accusations of heresy (reportedly for criticizing a religious statue), causing him to flee potential torture and investigation by the Inquisition.

• Lived as something of a fugitive, using this period to reinvent himself and gather diverse knowledge.

  “The Inquisition do become involved and want to question, torture him. So he goes on the run. This is around sort of 1538.” —Maddy [10:29]

4. Building a Reputation: From Almanacs to Prophecies

[12:24-14:57]

• Settled in Salon, France, remarried, had six children.

• Began compiling his famous book Les Prophéties in poetic quatrains composed in a blend of French, Latin, Greek, and Occitan—imparting scholarly legitimacy.

• Published successive editions: the final (1568) posthumous edition counted 942 quatrains.

  “He writes them all as four line poems, which says... a lot about his training, his education, and his desire to insert himself into a learned space.” —Maddy [14:22]

5. The Prophecies: Game Time with Interpretations

[19:47-25:11]

• Maddy reads out selected quatrains, and Anthony tries to guess the corresponding historical event—demonstrating their extreme vagueness and adaptability.

• Events purportedly “predicted” include:

  • The Great Fire of London [20:27–21:18]
  • The French Revolution [22:18–22:35]
  • The rise of Hitler [23:24–23:47]
  • JFK assassination [24:01–24:49]

  “That is not a prediction of the Great Fire of London.” —Anthony [21:18]

6. Nostradamus & Conspiracy Culture

[25:11-27:00]

• The continued reinterpretation of Nostradamus’ prophecies through modern catastrophes like 9/11.

• Exploration of how vague prophecy enables wide-ranging conspiratorial thinking.

  “Do you know where I first became aware of Nostradamus? ... 9/11. That’s when I first became aware of Nostradamus because there was talk that he had predicted this catastrophe.” —Anthony [25:27]

7. Nostradamus at Court: Legitimacy and Patronage

[26:23-27:22]

• Catherine de Medici’s fascination brought Nostradamus into royal circles.

• The famous death of Henry II in a jousting accident, reportedly predicted by Nostradamus, is discussed as a key episode cementing his myth.

  “She brought him into the fold, and she was very interested in what he had to say. And one of the things that he had to say was a prediction about her husband, Henry II of France.”—Maddy [26:32]

8. Nostradamus's Death and Legend

[27:22-29:56]

• Died in 1566 (heart failure from gout), after allegedly predicting his own death.

• Persistent myths include French Revolutionaries drinking from his skull, and the mystical plaque prophesying his exhumation—debunked as legend.

  “The night before he dies... he makes his final prediction. He says, ‘Tomorrow I will be no more.’” —Maddy [28:20]

9. Debates on Gender, Class, and Witchcraft

[30:45-31:56]

• Discussion of how Nostradamus's status as an educated man may have spared him the fate of “witches”—most often prosecuted women or marginalized men.

  “Would a woman making these predictions have got so far? Would she have survived?” —Maddy [31:15]

10. The Enduring Appeal of Divination

[32:18-36:05]

• Reflection on Nostradamus’s lasting legacy and the human need for prophecy in uncertain times.

• Personal anecdotes about tarot readings, skepticism vs. hope, and the psychological comfort sought through divination.

• Literal suggestion that tarot can act as a tool for self-reflection, not just prediction.

  “It offers you some control.”—Anthony [35:21]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Nostradamus’s Range:
  “He’s sort of a jack of all trades, master of none kind of vibe.” —Maddy [08:40]

• On the Craft of Prophecy:
  “He writes them all as four line poems... people will take the prophecies seriously if they are trained.” —Maddy [14:22]

• On Vagueness:
  “That is not a prediction of the Great Fire of London.” —Anthony [21:18] “You could read it as anything.” —Maddy [22:59]

• On Modern Conspiracies:
  “You can see where there’s a link between Nostradamus and conspiracies on the Internet now.” —Maddy [25:11]

• On Death and Self-Prediction:
  “The night before he dies... he makes his final prediction. He says, ‘Tomorrow I will be no more.’” —Maddy [28:20]

• On Gender Privilege:
  “Would a woman making these predictions have got so far? Would she have survived?” —Maddy [31:15]

• On the Allure of Prediction:
  “It offers you some control.” —Anthony [35:21]

• Humorous Self-Reflection:
  “Virgo and Aquarius shall rise from the ashes...” —Anthony [32:33]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:39] Introduction to Nostradamus’s life and context
• [07:07] Early career: medicine, almanacs, and faith healing
• [09:58] Personal tragedies and dispute with the university
• [10:29] Inquisition and exile; formation of an occult reputation
• [12:24] Settlement in Salon and start of the prophecies
• [14:08] Format and publication of his prophecies
• [19:47] Nostradamus Game: analyzing sample quatrains
• [25:11] Nostradamus, conspiracy, and 9/11
• [26:23] Patronage of Catherine de Medici and court notoriety
• [27:22] Death, posthumous myth, and final prediction
• [30:45] Gender and class debate
• [32:18] Discussion about tarot, scepticism, and the need for control

---

Summary

This episode critically explores the legend and reality of Nostradamus, blending teasing skepticism with genuine curiosity. The hosts trace Nostradamus’s life from outsider scholar to plague doctor, occult wanderer, and published seer. Through reading and playfully deconstructing his famously ambiguous quatrains, they show how his reputation has outlived his era—thanks, in part, to humanity’s eternal fascination with fate, tragedy, and patterns.

The critical discussion affirms that the real story of Nostradamus is less about true prophecy and more about the social, psychological, and historical needs that allow such legends to flourish—needs that are still alive and well, from Renaissance France to modern internet culture.

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For further episodes: expect more dives into history’s spookiest stories, with the same sharp wit and skeptical lens.

Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and.

[Maddy Pelling]

Maddy Pelling and if you would like.

[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

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[Maddy Pelling]

Nostradamus, the 16th century astronomer who is said to have somehow predicted the rise of Hitler, Napoleon 9 11, and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He was a man who mixed science with superstition and claimed to read the fate of kings in the movement of the stars. His cryptic verses, penned in riddles and half truths, terrified monarchs and comforted peasants. Were they really divine visions, though? Or clever poetry designed to survive the wrath of the Church? From the Renaissance courts to conspiracy forums, this is After Dark.

[Anthony Delaney]

The trumpets blare, hooves thunder, and two armored kings of chivalry lower their lances. The joust begins. The king charges, sunlight glancing off his gilded visor. But in an instant of splintered wood and shattering steel, his fate is sealed. As surgeons scramble and courtiers panic, a name begins to be whispered on trembling lips. Nostradamus. He had predicted. If Nostradamus could foresee the fall of a king, what other horrors might already be written in his cryptic verses? Well, hello there and welcome to After Dark. I'm Anthony.

[Maddy Pelling]

And I'm Maddie.

[Anthony Delaney]

And today we are talking about somebody you may well have heard of, because he is said to have predicted some of the darkest events in human history, from natural disasters to regicide. But just who was Nostradamus? Why has his story endured for so long? And why do we humans need to think that we are able to predict the future? I have none of the answers to those questions, but I know who does.

[Maddy Pelling]

Me neither.

[Anthony Delaney]

By the end, it is Maddy Pelling who is going to tell us all about Nostradamus today.

[Maddy Pelling]

I feel like you're introducing me like a guest. Fun times. Would you like to know a little bit about Nostradamus while we're here?

[Anthony Delaney]

We might spray as well.

[Maddy Pelling]

Entirely. Okay, so he's born in 1503. He's born Michel de Nostredame. I see the name of pronunciation. He is born to a Jewish family who have converted to Catholicism. So he's kind, already a little bit of an outsider, which is quite interesting, and someone who is interested in, I suppose, the edges and boundaries of religious belief and where that can take you. He grows up, like many a Renaissance man, learning languages, mathematics and astrology from his grandfather. Can I just say, having to learn languages clearly and mathematics is my worst nightmare, but also just leave me alone.

[Anthony Delaney]

To kind of plunk in there. The astrology. That might sound weird to people who are listening or watching on YouTube where it's like, oh, what the hell are they doing studying astrology, but this is not that strange given the context of the time.

[Maddy Pelling]

No, this is absolutely normal. The movement of the stars, planetary alignments, all of that held enormous meaning for people in this period. There's efforts to kind of scientifically categorize and understand what's going on in terms of the heavens. But there is also different and sometimes wild interpretations taking place as well. So we need to bear that in mind. He was formally educated, though. He studied liberal arts at the University of Avignon. Like Sur le Pont d'. Avignon.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you know what is that, though?

[Maddy Pelling]

It's like a little nursery rhyme. Sur le Pont d'. Avignon. Something, something. I don't know the words in French. Okay, wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

Never heard of this.

[Maddy Pelling]

I clearly had a much more cultured upbringing than you.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, I really did. I guarantee you now there was no French lullabies being sung to me as a child, that is.

[Maddy Pelling]

And clearly this had no impact because you do speak a bit of French and I can't speak French at all. So there we go. He later attended the University of Montpellier as well. Graduated with a degree in medicine, which today sounds like, you know, oh, he studied all these things. He must have been kind of so busy and like, super, super clever. But also, this is the time of the Renaissance, when you have to dip your wick into everything. You have to have a go at everything. And I suppose there's a lot of crossover in terms of these disciplines as well.

[Anthony Delaney]

So one of the things that I was more surprised at is kind of the next phase of his life, I think, because I hadn't expected to come across the idea that he was, before we know, the Nostradamus that we have now, this kind of predictor of events, or this kind of shaman, ish type person, almost Prophet.

[Maddy Pelling]

Prophet, yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

He was a doctor, a faith healer. So there is this, you know, you said about medicine, obviously he goes into.

[Maddy Pelling]

A Renaissance man, right, that he does all this stuff. Yeah, yeah. So he. Well, he has, like, he has several careers, several strings to his bow. He is involved in the printing of almanacs, so he's an author of those. So these are kind of popular texts that would contain, like, calendar, but also astronomical data, so things about like, the moon, the sun, the stars, all of that, forecasts of where planets are going.

[Anthony Delaney]

To move to, which of course is kind of linked to divination as well. Right. So there's a little bit of forecasting there.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. And also he's involved in these really early printed works. And it suggests to me that he understands the power of getting this information out there and the power of print, actually, and spreading ideas, spreading your own agenda. So that's something to bear in mind. But he is. Yeah, he's a healer. So he has some success treating plague victims in the 1530s as a legit.

[Anthony Delaney]

Plague doctor or as a. Oh, here's some thing. He's obviously going around with the stick poking.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, I don't think he serves as a plague doctor. I think he's like, I have the answers. The sun is in the east.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Pisces is down there. You can tell. I don't do any astrology. Question mark, question mark.

[Anthony Delaney]

What's your birth sign?

[Maddy Pelling]

Aquarius.

[Anthony Delaney]

I don't know what that means, but.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm just asking, what's yours?

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm right on the cusp of Libra and Virgo, but I now count myself as a Virgo.

[Maddy Pelling]

See, there'll be so many people listening to this game.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, that'll make sense.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God. Of course. They both are like, that's.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I don't know what it means.

[Maddy Pelling]

Not a clue. Getting back to Nostradamus. So he's treating these plague victims, but he's expelled from the University of Montpellier because he's practicing as an apothecary, which is seen as like a kind of manual trade. It's not very intellectual.

[Anthony Delaney]

So there's that saying, what are you doing with your medical degree if this is what you're going to be fiddling around with?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, exactly. Sort of pissing around, doing that. And he. So again, we have him sort of doing all these bits and bobs. He's sort of a jack of all trades, master of none kind of vibe.

[Anthony Delaney]

He's giving Crippen.

[Maddy Pelling]

Ooh. I mean, that's a little harsh, but.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, I know, but you know what I mean, like he was doing that, he was training, but he was also this kind of apothecary stuff and he was doing inventory stuff.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Someone who sort of has a self aggrandizing personality where they want to kind of be the best at everything or they want to be noticed in all these different feels and things, which is kind of.

[Anthony Delaney]

Anyway. Yeah, it just popped into my mind.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Yeah. It's also during this period that he loses his first wife and his children to the plague. And I think it's interesting, you know, when you think about his focus later on on this idea of fate and if there's any control that we can possibly have over what happens in our lives in the big scheme of human history. And of course that's going to become the thing that he's remembered for. Right. These prophecies. So I think that is an interesting point to carry on. So he's been kicked out of the university. His family are dead. He doesn't really have any ties anywhere. And he starts to become a little bit controversial. Like I say, he's worked as an apothecary, and he now sets off on some travels. Question mark. These are a little bit vague. We don't really know. He's traveling all over France, all over Europe at this time.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's interesting because you're talking about this person who has gone to a really recognized university who is potentially training in an up and coming trade and was.

[Maddy Pelling]

On the path to becoming a respectable Renaissance figure.

[Anthony Delaney]

And yet there is this gray area around the edges of why are you meddling with healing over there? What are you doing as an apothecary? What are you doing with the plague? We don't know for sure about the Inquisition. As far as I remember, it's a potential that he was being pursued by them. So even they're going, what are you doing in terms of your belief systems? Are you adhering to the prescribed belief systems?

[Maddy Pelling]

And also sort of rejecting institutionalized power in this moment for interacting with the people? Which is, again, interesting when you think about the prophecies and who are you giving power to? If you can tell the future, it kind of disrupts the power balance a little bit. So, yeah, the Inquisition do become involved and want to question, torture him. So he goes on the run. This is around sort of 1538. So we've had the plague in the early 1530s, and now we're in 1538. They're accusing him of heresy for specifically criticizing the craftsmanship of a religious statue. So.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God. Cheerful.

[Maddy Pelling]

I know, I know, right? I mean, can you imagine that statue's. That foot's too big. Right. Off with your head.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, I don't like how they did Ronaldo's face in that statue. No, you're dead.

[Maddy Pelling]

You're dead. You are dead. Yeah. Heresy. You're dead. So which. And of course, hey, I know the.

[Anthony Delaney]

Name of the footballer. Just to say Ronaldo. Was it him?

[Maddy Pelling]

Was he the one Nostradamus didn't like?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no. I don't know if I ever.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, there was a bad statue of him. Yeah, there was. Yeah. Well done, footballer.

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Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

He is on the run. And during this time, he basically takes a side step away from the education that he's had before and he becomes really interested in the occult, more so into astrology and herbalism as well. So alternative things, even for this period.

[Anthony Delaney]

When you said Heresy. I was like, oh, this is why. But no, it was because of a statue. But I was assuming it was because of what you're talking about now.

[Maddy Pelling]

It must have been. Right. I think the criticism of a religious statue is by extension a criticism of the church. It's just something they can nail him for. They want him for these things that he's getting involved in, but he outruns them. He leaves Provence and he travels through Italy, Greece, Turkey. And the whole time he's meeting people, he's gathering knowledge, he is building his own profession of his own making for the first time. These are now not just disparate bits that he's randomly experimenting with. He's creating and tailoring his own world around him.

[Anthony Delaney]

He's branding himself.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. And of course, getting followers as he does so as well.

[Anthony Delaney]

He would have been huge on social media.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God, huge. I'm trying to think of, like, what his videos would be like.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's like on TikTok, when you see people going, oh, here's. They do card reading. And it's like, if you're seeing this on the 14th of March, then this is for you specifically. And it's just like, there's 146 likes on it. 46,000 likes on it. It's like, how specific is it really? But, yeah, he'd be doing something.

[Maddy Pelling]

He would so be okay. Yeah, he absolutely would. Yeah, yeah. He'd be like, if you look out your window now and it's raining, this is for you. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So eventually he does settle in a place called Salon in France, and he marries again, a woman called Anne Passart, and they have six children together. So he's busy during this period. But, you know, he's had this kind of terrible loss in one place, and now presumably the Inquisition have given up looking for him, just got bored. Or maybe he's just hidden really well. But he started this new life, and it's around this time that he kind of recalls the power of print. Don't forget, he used to print those almanacs early on in his career. And he decides to write a book called Le Prophetie, or the Prophecies. I'm really nailing the French today. You are looking at me like, no, I just. No, no, no.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm just laughing because I can see the fear in your face before you go. You're just like, don't make me feel.

[Maddy Pelling]

This is. Giving GCSE French is so stressful. Basically, as he's been traveling around, he has been giving little prophecies out. And these aren't like the first World war begin in 1914. These are like, it will rain next Tuesday. And then it does rain. And people are like, oh, my God.

[Anthony Delaney]

But you live in Ireland, so there's no surprise.

[Maddy Pelling]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. This is now an escalation of that. And he sets down his prophecies, and these are becoming. These are not. It's gonna rain next Tuesday. Now, these are, you know, more serious things. And he writes them down.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, so just before you go, this is when these famous prophecies start.

[Maddy Pelling]

Exactly. And the thing that makes me. I mean, look, I'm not buying into it and saying, oh, my God, he could read the future, but.

[Anthony Delaney]

Go on, Maddie.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes, but the thing that makes me kind of laugh about this is that he writes them all as four line poems, which says, I suppose, a lot about his. His training, his education, and his desire to insert himself into a learned space.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a legitimacy. Well, it feels like he's trying to bring a legitimacy.

[Maddy Pelling]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And to kind of, you know, people will take the prophecies seriously if they are trained. Yes, yes, totally. So he sets the four line poems out in sets of a hundred, which he calls centuries.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, yeah, I did.

[Maddy Pelling]

Which I think is kind of interesting. And this isn't necessarily. This is what will happen in this century. That's not it. But this is just the way that he organizes them. The first edition that he prints contains three centuries and 53 quatrains. So 353, four line poems.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Maddy Pelling]

Which is a lot. And also, who could be bothered to write 350?

[Anthony Delaney]

And here we are, 20, 25, still, like, there's no way he could have thought of the impact actually that he has.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do you think? Because I think he absolutely would. I think if he was here now, he'd be like, well, of course you're still talking about them, because look how great I was. I think there's an ego, definitely. So as you can imagine, these become incredibly popular very, very quick. So we get the second edition in, is also published in 1555. Then we get another edition again in 1557, a fourth edition in 1558. This is big news. And obviously, this is the 16th century. Things are getting printed, but not on the scale they are even in the 18th century. So this is a serious success. When the fourth version is published in 1568. He has been dead for two years. At that point.

[Anthony Delaney]

He's gone.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, he's gone. Yeah, yeah. And at that point, the fourth edition contains 942 poets.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, stop it.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, right.

[Anthony Delaney]

So that first, it's not like he's adapting. He keeps going.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, he keeps going.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, I thought it was just like, reprints. No, he's adding.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, he's reprinting the originals. But every time he's like, there's more. Actually, can you imagine being his editor?

[Anthony Delaney]

Like, could you imagine being his wife?

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God.

[Anthony Delaney]

Because there is nothing.

[Maddy Pelling]

She'd be like, kids. Like.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

You do little poems.

[Anthony Delaney]

Hate when people tell you their dreams. It's the most boring thing. It's like. But that didn't happen. So it's like, what are you wasting my time for? I don't have time for this shit.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do you feel like he dreamed?

[Anthony Delaney]

No. I don't know how. He had his prophecy. Well, he made them up. But like, it just so that's kind of whatever. But just don't talk to me about your dreams.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, the other thing as well to say about these poems is they're written in a mixture of French, Greek, Latin and Occitan, which is like, again, who could be bothered?

[Anthony Delaney]

But legitimizing.

[Maddy Pelling]

Again. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Would you like to hear some of the predictions?

[Anthony Delaney]

I've never heard an actual Nostradamus prediction.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh my God. Okay, so we're gonna play a little game. Cue the jingle. Okay, so the way that this game is gonna work. Antonio Delaney.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm really bad at games. Okay, go.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's okay. I think. I think you'll be all right with this one. I'm gonna read you the four line poem.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

And you're gonna guess what event in history, in the whole of history, it's predicting.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, I'm bad. I'm bad at guessing games. I'm really bad. But I want to do this.

[Maddy Pelling]

Let's go. Poem number one.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm gonna talk as you're talking. So I'm working out loud.

[Maddy Pelling]

And also, don't peek on your notes.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, I'm not.

[Maddy Pelling]

The answers are on your notes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, okay. I promise you I won't.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. You're never gonna get this. Oh, I don't know. The blood of the just will commit a fault at London burnt through lightning of 23's the six. The ancient what?

[Anthony Delaney]

23'S the six?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Weird. The ancient lady will fall from her high place. Several of the same sect will be killed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, I'm not gonna spend too long on each of these. Cause I could do whole podcasts, but let's just break it down line by line. Give me line one again.

[Maddy Pelling]

The blood of the just will commit a fault at London.

[Anthony Delaney]

No idea. Give me line two.

[Maddy Pelling]

Burnt.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, yeah. So when you said burn and London was in the previous line, I'm just thinking great fire. Yeah, but then you said lightning, so there's nothing I'll do with great fire.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, people have read it as the prediction of the Great Fire of London in 1666. Correct. Bonus point to Anthony.

[Anthony Delaney]

Except that is not a prediction of the Great Fire of London.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, exactly. And this is the thing that so many of these predictions are so vague.

[Anthony Delaney]

And also, it said something about blood. Like, okay, the Great Fire of London one's particularly bloody. What are the last two lines?

[Maddy Pelling]

The ancient lady will fall from her high place. Several of the same sect will be killed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Ancient lady? Yeah.

[TruthFinder Advertiser]

What?

[Anthony Delaney]

I mean, realistically, that could be something like falling off the roof of St. Paul's or something. I guess you could.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, you could kind of compare it to that. I don't know. Yeah, but this is the thing. Like, they're all so loose and so non specific that you can mould them and people absolutely have more.

[Anthony Delaney]

That is not a prediction of the Great Fire of London. Okay, fine.

[Maddy Pelling]

This one I think you might have more of a chance with.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, but I got that one.

[Maddy Pelling]

You know, to be fair. Okay, I won't strip you of your points. You did get that one. Okay, number two. Songs, chants and demands will come from the enslaved, held captive by the nobility in their prisons. And at a later date, brainless idiots will take these as divine utterances.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay, so I initially always liked something about the transatlantic slave trade, but it's not that, because you said nobility specifically.

[Maddy Pelling]

And prisons.

[Anthony Delaney]

So nobility, prisons and slaves.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'll give you a clue. This is our century, 18th century French Revolution. Yes, correct.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's loose.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think this is a good one. So you've got, obviously the enslaved here referring to, like, the downtrodden.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, but they're not enslaved.

[Maddy Pelling]

They're not technically enslaved. Held captive by the nobility in their prisons. Thinking about the Bastille, you know, Fine. At a later date, brainless idiots will take these as divine utterances. You could kind of read that as the terror that comes later, maybe, I suppose, and the chaos and the kind of thuggery of all of that. And then maybe.

[Anthony Delaney]

So you could read it as anything.

[Maddy Pelling]

You really could, But French Revolution, 1789, my friend. Nosferatu.

[Anthony Delaney]

Anyway, still not convinced.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God. Nosferatu. This one. I think this is quite good. From the depths of the West Of Europe. A young child will be born of poor people. He who by his tongue will seduce a great troop. His fame will increase towards the realm of the East.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know this because I've heard it before. Being applied to Hitler.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And you can see why that again, there is nothing specific in there but the specificity of a young child born to poor people. He who by his tongue will seduce a great troop, somewhat charismatic, born to the lower classes, who is going to rise.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's a lot of examples of that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Exactly. But that is what people associate it with. With Hitler. This last one.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, there's another one. Oh, my God.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, there's one more. You're going to be here all night. No, there's. Last one. I don't know if you'll get this one, because this is really vague.

[Anthony Delaney]

Hey, I've done well so far.

[Maddy Pelling]

You've done really well. But I think this is going to be a bit too random for you, okay. Because you don't ever think about this century. So go on. It's one we refuse. What? You refuse to cover on after dark.

[Anthony Delaney]

20Th century.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Okay. The ancient task will be completed from on high. Evil will fall on the great man. A dead innocent will be accused of the deed. The guilty will remain in the mist.

[Anthony Delaney]

I actually think I know what this is.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God. Go on. It's the.

[Anthony Delaney]

The middle is the key bit. Maybe as in like an innocent man thingy.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, depending on your conspiracy.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is it jfk?

[Maddy Pelling]

It is the assassination of jk.

[Anthony Delaney]

That is the best I have ever done in a quiz ever, that I did not study for.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think that's a vague one. But actually when you apply it to jfk, it's quite compelling.

[Anthony Delaney]

When the middle, I think it's absolute bullshit. But the middle of it I went.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, that's that Lee Harvey Oswald being accused, but not really being.

[Anthony Delaney]

But then as you say, that leads into conspiracy theories, which of course, predictions leading into conspiracy theories leading into the secrets that are around us that were being. You know, it all kind of feeds into this monster.

[Maddy Pelling]

And you can see where there's a link between Nostradamus and conspiracies on the Internet now. And of course conspiracies now feed so much into the right, particularly in American political culture. And you can absolutely see that thread through history.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you know where I first became aware of Nostradamus? And it's a really weird place. Oh, I guess it's not though. But 9, 11. That's when I first became aware of Nostradamus because there was talk that he had predicted this catastrophe. And so therefore, I mean, there's talk.

[Maddy Pelling]

That he's predicted every single catastrophe. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

But maybe that's the first one I remember.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that it was a catastrophe unfolding in real time as well. So we're sort of more absorbent to that kind of discourse. Jon. To know, fun fact, talking about people's sort of modern belief, modern. Sort of buying into this in 1999, the French designer Paco Rabanne, who was a reader of Nostradamus, quite a fan.

[Anthony Delaney]

So questionable and all that these predictions are in our time, and we are, you know, 400 years on from when these predictions are being made. Were there things that were happening in the 16th century that people were like, he's got it.

[Maddy Pelling]

There were. There was one particular. There was, and he was correct and everything should be believed? No. So during his strange and rambling life, this varied life that he had, varied career, he came under the patronage of Catherine de Medici, which we should so do an episode on her, because she was really into the occult. And obviously she's this huge kind of powerful figure and someone who is very manipulative and good at political plot or two. So she brought him into the fold, and she was very interested in what he had to say. And one of the things that he had to say was a prediction about her husband, Henry II of France. And. And the prediction was that he would die in a jousting accident. Now, I'm not sure what the original prediction was. The four lines.

[Anthony Delaney]

Show me that quatrain.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah. And he would fall off a mighty beast and be stuck with a stick. I don't know.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, that's too specific.

[Maddy Pelling]

That'd be good.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'd be like, fair enough.

[Maddy Pelling]

Or would it be like the Tree of Death on the battlefield of sport? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something completely random. But how does Henry II of France die, Anthony?

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm thinking jousting.

[Maddy Pelling]

Correct.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Set you up well for that. Yeah. And so she's sold on this. She's like, wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

But she's quite. From what I remember correctly about Catherine, she's that way inclined, anyway. Right. She would be willing to believe this.

[Maddy Pelling]

Absolutely, yeah. She's open to the power of suggestion, let's say. And that's kind of one that is remembered during his lifetime as being, you know, the thing that seals his legitimacy. But as I said previously, he dies in July 1566. So two years before the final. The fourth edition of his prophecies is published. Now this makes me laugh. He dies from heart failure, which is brought on from complications with gout. So not well. And also potentially living quite a bougie lifestyle. If he's got gout, you know, he's. He's.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, he's at the court, isn't he? He's at Medici's court.

[Maddy Pelling]

Exactly. He's got a taste of the fine life. The night before he dies, he dies. The next day he makes his final prediction. He says, tomorrow I will be no more.

[Anthony Delaney]

That should have never happened.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, but also, like, even if he did, what a safe bet to be like, I'm dying.

[Anthony Delaney]

It could be like those grannies, you know the way when you. Well, both of my grannies are dead now. But, like, one of them in particular, she'd always be like, if I even live that long, I'd be like, oh, my God.

[Maddy Pelling]

Classic granny banter.

[Anthony Delaney]

It is that kind of thing. Granted, when she did die, she wasn't saying that at all, but like, you know, for 20 years before she actually did, it was like, jesus, Lizzy.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, and a brilliant way to like, absolutely guilt trip everyone, right? Like, I might be dead soon. So he dies now, he's buried, he's put to rest, everything is fine.

[Anthony Delaney]

How could there be any more to this story? What are you going to say?

[Maddy Pelling]

So there is a little bit of an afterlife of his body or a mythological afterlife. So there is a story that in the French Revolution, which obviously he predicted, there are some French revolutionary soldiers who become obsessed. Have you heard this? Yes. They become obsessed with this idea that if they drink from his skull, they will be able to tell the future. And obviously, you know, why wouldn't you want to tell the future during the French Revolution or drink out of a skull? That too.

[Anthony Delaney]

The world has turned upside down. You might as well drink out of a skull.

[Maddy Pelling]

Was it Byron who used to drink out of a skull on a regular basis? I think that's the kind of classic thing he would do. It was probably the skull of, like, one of his many conquered love interests he'd scattered aside. So the story goes that they dig up his body and on his body is a little plaque that he was buried with, saying the date in the 18th century that he would be dug up. And they're like, what? Oh, my God. Never happened, Never happened, Never happened.

[Anthony Delaney]

He said, not being there, but like.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, I'd love for that to be true.

[Anthony Delaney]

So would I. And the image of somebody drinking from somebody's skull, 200 year old, 250 year old skull or whatever it Is.

[Maddy Pelling]

Is compelling.

[Anthony Delaney]

Compelling, and it's very narratively interesting.

[Maddy Pelling]

And again, particularly in that moment of the revolution when everything is chaos, everything is violence, everything is bloody and gory.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I can see it. But, yeah, he's just a chancer. Right. And fair enough. Like, actually, more needs to be done. Actually, your book is kind of, in a way, looking at that, in that it's like the history of chancers, like the history of people who are going here, we'll give this a go and see how far down the road we get.

[Maddy Pelling]

Anthony has been given an early copy of my book.

[Anthony Delaney]

I have got it yesterday.

[Maddy Pelling]

There will be tests on this now.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, movie tests. Not just reading, actually.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm texting you every day. Like, how far in are you? Chapter one. How's chapter two? What did you think of the end of chapter three?

[Anthony Delaney]

Imagine I'm just like, matty, Maddie.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's shit. It's not pre. Order it. Now, do you think that Nostradamus has a little bit of gender and class privilege in that this is a time when witchcraft accusations and witchcraft trials are booming and the church is very interested in heresy? Yes, he is wanted by the Inquisition at some point, but he does end up in the court of Catherine de Medici. Is this because he's an educated man? Would a woman making these predictions have got so far? Would she have survived?

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, my first reaction to it was, especially in Central Europe, there are actually plenty of men that are being arrested and prosecuted for witchcraft. So that sense. No, but that doesn't mean gender's not coming into it. Because when you said, would a woman be able to do this? I still don't think so.

[Maddy Pelling]

I don't think she would ever up at the court of Catherine de Belche.

[Anthony Delaney]

No. No. And a woman of a higher class than those who are generally, though not always, not by any stretch, always convicted of witchcraft probably is not going to play that game in the same way at this time. It wasn't the courtly thing for women to do. So there are other ways that women can gain influence and power at court. So, yeah, actually, initially when you said.

[Maddy Pelling]

It, I was like, maybe not.

[Anthony Delaney]

But now on reflection, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think he's an interesting figure and I think we've got the actual life, the publications. That is interesting in and of itself. But I think his legacy is fascinating and the way that we are still talking about him, we're still wanting to mold those predictions to.

[Anthony Delaney]

Have we had anything recently, more recent than 9 11, probably, that he's said to have predicted it'll also be really.

[Maddy Pelling]

Tragic as well as Brexit.

[Anthony Delaney]

Probably trump the rise of Trump, maybe guarantee you that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. I bet if you looked through all. What was it, 900 and something, he.

[Anthony Delaney]

Could apply it to anything. So, yeah, he's predicted this podcast probably.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God. You heard it here.

[Anthony Delaney]

Virgo and Aquarius shall rise from the ashes of.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's the shocking.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Tell me this. Have you ever had your personal future told? Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

So for my, like, 20th birthday or something last five years ago.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm doing the maths right now.

[Anthony Delaney]

I had a tarot card reader at the party that just sat in the corner and read everyone's cards. And we were all very into it because we were 20 and whatever else, and we thought that it was all.

[Maddy Pelling]

I would love to have a tarot reader come on and do that for us. Because we've always wanted to do an episode on tarot.

[Anthony Delaney]

We have to do that.

[Maddy Pelling]

We're looking through the glass at producer Freddie.

[Anthony Delaney]

Freddie's like, what are you screaming at me for? We have to do a live tarot. Everyone's putting their thumbs up and saying, yes, we'll do some history, too. Not just for us to have that. That's a great idea. It's probably the best idea you've ever had. Well done.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, I am a genius. I also used to have a violin teacher. This is why I was. This is when I was not studying French clearly and his mum used to tell fortunes and he. I remember him telling me about palm reading. And he said that the left hand side is the fate that you're born with, and your right hand palm changes throughout your life when your left doesn't, because it's the fate you make for yourself.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's true, though.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, I don't know. Is it?

[Anthony Delaney]

Also, the lighting is so low in here, I can't see. So I'm just.

[Maddy Pelling]

I can see some lines.

[Anthony Delaney]

I did also have. When I was thinking of doing the PhD, I went to a tarot card reader because my friend made me go.

[Maddy Pelling]

And said, should I do a PhD?

[Anthony Delaney]

And I said, should I do a PhD?

[Maddy Pelling]

She said, yes, you'll end up on a podcast.

[Anthony Delaney]

He said, you need to make sure that you do a PhD. That. That you have to do the PhD. And now look at me. I don't believe in any of that kind of stuff, though.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's.

[Anthony Delaney]

But I would. I would so have it done for.

[Maddy Pelling]

Someone who doesn't believe in it. You've been to.

[Anthony Delaney]

She took me. Amy Jean took me.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

So was her.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

I did believe in it when I was 20, to be fair.

[Maddy Pelling]

Did you?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

You've come a long way. Thanks. You're an old skeptic now.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I'm not even a middle aged skeptic just yet. No, not yet.

[Maddy Pelling]

This has been fun.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, if this is what you call fun, but sure.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm joking. It has been fun. I do. No, but I do think, and there was a time when I was really like. I would probably imagine that this is all very true. That is not now is not that time.

[Maddy Pelling]

But that's interesting that you had that moment.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, but doesn't everyone have that moment in their, like, early, late teens, early 20s?

[Maddy Pelling]

I think there's something about tarot that really attracts the gays of those and, you know, everyone else. It's that kind of, I don't know, an alternative way to see the world and an alternative system of belief that.

[Anthony Delaney]

Comes from being powerless.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it offers you some control.

[Anthony Delaney]

Order. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

So I can see the appeal. 100.

[Anthony Delaney]

Did you not?

[Maddy Pelling]

I. I was definitely interested in tarot. I don't know if I ever believed it, but I was very interested. I do have a. I do have a deck at home.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah. We'll get it out occasionally and have a little look.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know people who do and then.

[Maddy Pelling]

Have to Google what the card means.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know people who do their own cards every day. Just as a kind of a reflective practice rather than as a prediction.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes, yes. So I've heard this a lot, that it's very good for just kind of being in touch with your own self and your own feelings and like, where am I at? Here are some prompts and I'm gonna think about what's going on in my.

[Anthony Delaney]

Life, but I'm doing the thinking.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I can buy into that. That's a system I can buy into. I think it's a useful tool.

[Anthony Delaney]

Just reflection, right?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, save it for the tarot episode.

[Anthony Delaney]

I feel like this has now turned into like one of those self healing, like, you know, podcast things that I'm.

[Maddy Pelling]

Here for all kinds of spiritual advice. We need to do some, like, Tarot ASMR or something. Just be me doing the heavy breathing halfway through. We should probably wrap up this episode.

[Anthony Delaney]

Go on. Do you want me to do it or do you want to do it?

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, you do it. I've run out of breath.

[Anthony Delaney]

Listen, Nostradamus was a chancer and he did some very good chancing in the 16th century. But we don't need to live our lives by his predictions. And the next time something awful happens on the news within a week you will hear other people talk about some random quatrain that he has talked about that has nothing got to do with that terrible thing. But people will say it has and you don't need to believe them because that's what history was here to tell you. Thank you for watching along if you're watching on YouTube or listening if you're listening on the podcast. I very much enjoyed this nice fun learning little project. If you are listening to the podcast, leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching on YouTube, chat in the comments below and we will see all of your comments and our producers.

[Maddy Pelling]

Will I'm getting a vision. People are leaving five star reviews as we speak. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

[Anthony Delaney]

I don't trust her at all.

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[Paige Desorbo]

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[Anthony Delaney]

Can I make my site firmer?

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