Who was the 'Man-Monster' Of New York?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode Title: Who was the 'Man-Monster' Of New York?
Hosts: Maddy Pelling & Anthony Delaney
Date: September 8, 2025

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Main Theme

In this episode, historians Maddy Pelling and Anthony Delaney delve into the riveting and complex story of Mary Jones, a free Black trans woman and sex worker in 1830s New York, dubbed the "Man-Monster" by sensationalist newspapers. Drawing on Anthony's new book Queer Georgians, the hosts explore how Mary navigated intersecting systems of racism, transphobia, and class prejudice, and how her life reflects both the long, obscured history of queer presence and the enduring challenge of erasure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: 1830s New York (03:04–11:10)

• Mary's Trial: The episode opens with Anthony dramatizing the electric, hostile atmosphere of Mary Jones's trial in 1836, highlighting public scorn, fascination, and cruelty.

  • Memorable moment: The crowd's laughter as Mary's wig is snatched off, and her unshaken response:

    "Mary stands composed and dignified... she retrieves her good wig and places it once more atop her head. A crown."
    (Anthony Delaney, 05:12)

• Historical Context:

  • New York is a booming port city with 275,000 people, marked by immigration, poverty, and crime (09:10).
  • Though slavery is abolished, systemic racism and discrimination remain omnipresent, especially for Black New Yorkers.
  • The political environment is tumultuous—President Andrew Jackson's populism favors wealthy white men and drives Native American displacement.
  • Across Europe, rapid industrialization brings social unrest and new policing focused on poverty and "immorality," a concept often wielded against queer people.

2. Mary Jones: Identity, Survival, and Gender (11:36–19:09)

• Fluidity and Self-Definition:

  • Mary was born "Peter Suale," but used both names for different aspects of her life—Mary for her authentic self and social circles, Peter when circumstances necessitated.

    • "When she names herself Mary, I go with that. When she names herself Peter, I go with that. Both are necessary for her in different walks of life."
      (Anthony Delaney, 11:41)

  • Mary used other names such as Ms. Ophelia, Ms. Jane, and Eliza Smith, often as part of her sex work persona (13:04).

• Queer and Black Histories Intertwined:

  • Likely the first in her family born outside of slavery, Mary’s story is both a queer and Black American history (12:47).
  • Within Black communities, she lived openly as Mary; in white spaces, she sometimes reverted to Peter for safety (18:47).

3. The Sex Work Economy and Gender Concealment (17:09–29:01)

• Economic Realities:

  • Mary worked as a sex worker on Bleecker Street, making up to $50 a week—substantial at the time (17:09).
  • Trans sex workers were under-recorded; much of their history is lost, but Mary's case gives rare insight (17:46).

• Concealment:

  • Most of Mary’s clients were unaware she was not assigned female at birth. She ingeniously crafted a “beef girdle” to simulate female anatomy during sex, described in lurid Latin detail in contemporary newspapers (29:01).

    • "She has fashioned for herself a girdle of sorts made from beef... the men that she's engaging in sex within the alleys think that she has a vagina."
      (Anthony Delaney, 29:28)

  • The nickname "Beefsteak Pete" originated here, alongside media obsession with the “Man Monster” label (32:31).

4. The “Man-Monster”: Media, Public Frenzy, and the Print (19:29–23:34)

• Media Portrayal:

  • Newspapers sensationalize Mary’s gender identity, using terminology like “alias” to frame her as deceitful and criminal (23:18).
  • The infamous print shows Mary as a fashionable woman but is captioned “Man Monster,” exposing the public’s transfixed horror and curiosity.

    • "This is the least monstrous thing I have ever seen in my entire life."
      (Anthony Delaney, 22:06)

• Themes of Deception:

  • The idea of "passing" is depicted in both criminal and gendered terms, conflating identity with trickery.

5. The Crime and Arrest (23:34–29:01)

• The Incident:

  • Mary is accused of stealing money from Robert Haslam, a client, after sex; the theft is only reported because the replacement pocketbook contains a non-cash money order (25:32). Another “victim” is located in similar circumstances.
  • Mary is apprehended after police pose as potential clients.

• Discovery and Outrage:

  • On arrest, the "beef girdle" causes further outrage and ridicule, leading to more lurid press coverage.

6. Legal Process and Erasure (32:22–37:18)

• Court Records:
  • Surprisingly, most legal documents use “Mary Jones” as her name, showing a kind of official acknowledgment—much earlier than is commonly believed for trans identities in U.S. legal history.

    • "Throughout almost every document, bar one... she is referred to as either Mary Jones and Peter Suelley or just Mary Jones."
      (Anthony Delaney, 33:02)

  • However, a crucial archival find shows “alias Mary Jones” intentionally erased from an official court document—a literal manifestation of queer erasure from history.

    • "They are literally trying to erase Mary Jones from the historical record."
      (Anthony Delaney, 36:03)

7. The Trial: Spectacle, Shame, and Resilience (37:18–44:05)

• Public Humiliation:

  • The courtroom is packed, rife with mockery and cruelty; Mary’s identity is not technically on trial, but is the main spectacle (37:53).

    • "They undermine her by positioning her as a joke. So much so the official court recorder is recorded as having laughed until he cried when she appeared."
      (Anthony Delaney, 38:45)

• Intersectional Prejudice:

  • The response is about both transphobia and anti-Black racism, as well as class prejudice. Mary is denigrated and dehumanized at every turn.

• Mary’s Testimony & Community:

  • She frames presenting as a woman as influenced by fellow sex workers, possibly as a defense strategy, but also alludes to vibrant, supportive Black and female communities (41:40).

• Outcome:

  • Found guilty (evidence was strong), she is sentenced to Sing Sing Prison, a harsh correctional facility, but this is not the end of her story.

8. Survival and Recurrent Resistance (44:05–52:33)

• Continued Defiance:

  • Mary is repeatedly arrested over the next decade—sometimes for theft, but also, increasingly, for vagrancy or “parading in women’s clothing,” as shifting laws offer vague pretexts to police marginalized people.
  • She consistently returns to living, working, and dressing as a woman, regardless of repeated state and social violence.

• Archival Gems:

  • In 1844, Mary is discovered with a written vow from a male partner—a rare glimpse into queer relationship structures, echoing wedding vows in its language (46:15).

    • "I, Joseph Linus, do hereby certify that I have taken an oath... that I will be a friend to Peter soarily till death separates us... I also swear to tell him everything of the least moment that transpires concerning either of us.” (46:15)

  • Similar “vows” are found in other queer cases, suggesting a hidden, community-driven way of formalizing relationships.

• Persistence in Identity:

  • Despite evidence of punishment and rejection, the record shows Mary refusing to yield.

    • “She is determined to carve out a place for herself in a world that does not wish her to find that place.”
      (Anthony Delaney, 52:13)

  • Her presence in the historical record—despite attempts at erasure—is “a column of resistance and resilience.”

9. Reflection and Legacy (51:08–52:33)

• Mary is last recorded in 1846, still dressing and living as a woman.
• Anthony frames Mary’s ongoing resistance as history-making in its own right:

  • “Sometimes just keeping on, keeping on is how you make history. And Mary Jones is a really good example of that.”
    (Anthony Delaney, 52:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On shame and dignity:

  "Why ought she be embarrassed simply because they wished to shame her?... Mary stands composed and dignified... a crown."
  (Anthony Delaney, 05:12)

• On historical erasure:

  "They are literally trying to erase Mary Jones from the historical record."
  (Anthony Delaney, 36:03)

• On intersectional marginalization:

  "Nothing is as scary as a rabid populace chasing down a minority group who are already disenfranchised... it displays the cruelty of humanity bare faced."
  (Anthony Delaney, 08:07)

• On survival as resistance:

  “She is determined to carve out a place for herself in a world that does not wish her to find that place.”
  (Anthony Delaney, 52:13)

• On community and formalizing queer relationships:

  "These feel like wedding vows... a way of structuring your relationship, of giving it officiality in a way not available to queer people."
  (Maddy Pelling, 47:01–48:22)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:04 – Anthony’s atmospheric narration of Mary’s trial
• 09:10 – Maddy’s social/political context of 1830s New York
• 11:36 – Introduction to Mary Jones’s life and identity
• 17:09 – Economic reality of sex work for Mary
• 19:29–23:34 – "Man Monster" nickname, media portrayal, impact of hoax/deception tropes
• 23:34–29:01 – The theft, arrest, and “beef girdle”
• 33:02–36:39 – Legal documentation and archival erasure
• 37:53 – The sensationalized trial and crowd mockery
• 41:40 – Mary’s testimony and hints at community
• 44:05–52:33 – Mary’s post-trial resilience, recurring arrests, and the legacy she leaves

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Tone and Style

The conversation is both scholarly and accessible—witty, incisive, and deeply empathetic. Maddy and Anthony balance rigorous historical analysis with a sense of urgency and contemporary relevance, frequently drawing connections to ongoing social struggles faced by trans and marginalized people. They punctuate grim historical realities with moments of admiration and even humor, celebrating Mary’s resistance.

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Conclusion

Mary Jones’s history is a story of resilience against state and social power, a rare light shining from the archives revealing a queer, Black life determined to persist in the face of systemic erasure and cruelty. This episode not only restores agency to Mary’s narrative but testifies to the importance of recovering and honoring marginalized voices in history.

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For further reading: Anthony Delaney’s Queer Georgians (titled Queer Enlightenments in North America), available now in the UK and Ireland and from October 7, 2025, in North America.

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Transcript

[Maddy Pelling]

Hello everyone, it's us, your hosts, Maddy Pelling and Anthony Delaney.

[Anthony Delaney]

But before we begin the show, we want to ask for a few seconds.

[Maddy Pelling]

Of your time if you're enjoying After Dark and we love you if you are, we would love you just a little bit more if you could vote for us in the Listener's Choice category at the British Podcast Awards.

[Anthony Delaney]

So go to the Show Notes now, click the link and just then search for After Dark. Fill in your name and your email and don't forget to confirm they will send you an email you need to confirm the the whole process probably takes about 30 seconds.

[Maddy Pelling]

If you've already voted, we are so so grateful. If you haven't stop what you are doing right now. Vote for us before you enjoy this show.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I'm Anthony.

[Maddy Pelling]

And this is the second of two very special episodes celebrating the release of a little book called Queer Georgians by our very own Anthony Delaney. This is a story from the pages of that book, all about the so called man monster of New York. Anthony, set the scene, please.

[Anthony Delaney]

16 June, 1836. Mary Jones, a free black woman, enters a packed New York courtroom. The atmosphere is electric. The wooden floorboards thrum with the depth of men's voices, their laughter and scorn from the gallery seats. Vulturous members of the public, having been scandalized by the details of the case when it first appeared in the daily papers, peer down on their prey, who has now assumed her assigned position. Vicious prodding things they are, as they go up. Just as well they are kept at a distance from Mary Jones, for one gets the impression that if they could, they would rip the very flesh from her bones. Desperate, rapid and unyielding. For now, though, they are forced to sit greedily, salivating and watch on. Despite the fact that she is on trial, Mary is an unlikely heroine. Yes, she is a thief, there's no denying that. But sometimes the brutal circumstances one is born into, and the dictates of the laws of the day are simply incompatible in such cases. Who are we to judge what Mary Jones might have had to do to eke out a living in a country and in a time that did not see her as entirely human? Today, though she is every inch a lady, she has composed herself, dressed in her finest garb for the occasion, and her head is held high despite the tumult around her and about her, Mary stands composed and dignified. Though the tittering continues. A filthy hand darts forward now and snatches the flowing wig from the head of the prisoner, which in turn excites a tremendous roar of laughter throughout the room. Mary does not flinch. She does not blench. Why ought she be embarrassed simply because they wished to shame her? It was those around her who had lost their decency, not she. Mary, keeping her back straight and bending at the knee, lowers herself to the floor, retrieves her good wig and. And places it once more atop her head. A crown. But to those gathered in the court today, Mary Jones is To be denied the dignity she wears so proudly and proficiently. Those gathered will titter and snort and prod, snatch and poke. They hate her, hate this stranger before them. It can be the only explanation for their behavior. But they hate her not because she is a thief, as we have discovered, but because they have read in the newspapers that there is a disparity between Mary Jones gender and her sex. This, though it was not illegal and was none of their business, they could not tolerate. This is after dark, and this is the very dark history of how Arabid people sought to bury Mary Jones for transing her gender identity. And listeners, I am pleased to report it is also a history of how Mary Jones would not let them.

[Maddy Pelling]

If you don't yet own a copy of Queer A Hidden History of Lovers, Lawbreakers and Homemakers, what are you doing with yourself? It's out now in the UK and Ireland and it will be out in North America titled queer enlightenments from the 7th of October. Anthony, how are you feeling about this book being out in the world now?

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm feeling like I should bring you and all my publicity because I'm saying those sentences all the time. So it's actually interesting to hear other people say it in the comments.

[Maddy Pelling]

I will take that fee.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, yes. It's so weird. You know what it's like. We live with these books for literally years, and then you've been telling me.

[Maddy Pelling]

These stories for years, a long, long time.

[Anthony Delaney]

And some of these stories, not Mary specifically, but some of these have lived even with me since my PhD. So five, six years at this point now. So it is a long time. Listen, I think it's really important that more people know about these queer Georgians, which is the whole point of writing the book. And so we're right on the precipice of that now. So it feels like, finally, here you go. Take the histories, tell these stories, do them. Yeah. Like live them.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's so exciting. And last episode, when we looked at stories from the book, we did the London Molly houses of the 1720s and a raid and arrest, what that environment looked like, an environment that I think a lot of people actually won't be familiar with. So if you haven't listened to the episode, do go back and listen, because there's history there that feels familiar, but not necessarily quite as you would expect.

[Anthony Delaney]

So we've had the Mollies. That's kind of the opening of the book. We then have the sample chapter from the audiobook, which is a not so singular case. That's chapter 10 this Mary brings us right to the very end of the.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, she's the final chapter.

[Anthony Delaney]

She's the final chapter. She's 1836. So right on the cusp of that long 18th century. Right on the cusp of that Georgian time period. And so we're closing out with Mary. This will give you just a sample of her incredible history. We'll go through all the details of the trial and everything because it's after dark and we love a trial. But I just wanna make it very clear before I ask you to give us the context, Mattie, that the dark history here is not Mary's history. It's the people around Mary and how they react to her and how actually that we've talked about gh, talked about murders, we've talked about all kinds of things on this podcast. Nothing is as scary as a rabid populace chasing down a minority group who are already disenfranchised. And this is so frightening for so many different reasons, just because it displays the cruelty of humanity bare faced. And we're dealing with a lot of it today as well for our trans brothers and sisters. So that is the dark history here. So let's be very clear about that before we set forward.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm now going to give a bit of context because I co wrote this book. No, I absolutely didn't.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, you did.

[Maddy Pelling]

These are notes that Anthony has given me. Okay, so we're in New York in 1836 and the city's population is nearing 275,000. So it's a booming city. It is of course a port city and it's a hub of immigration. So so many people pouring into this space. There is poverty, there's crime. These are all parts of daily life. This is a city that is working out who and what it is. And it's constantly changing to speak specifically to life in America in this moment. Slavery in New York is gone by this time. But of course racism is absolutely entrenched in the society. It's not like it's just disappeared. Suddenly black New Yorkers face job discrimination. They have restricted voting rights. I assume it's just men who can vote in this moment.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. So black women not voting. There's frequent harassment. Even in vibrant communities where there is a lot of diversity, this is still the case. United States more generally in this moment. It's a challenging political moment, A pretty dark history actually. So we have Andrew Jackson as the president and he is pushing these sound familiar populist policies that primarily serve white, rich white men. I don't know why that sounds nonsense.

[Anthony Delaney]

In our comments section.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, don't come for us. We don't care. He is dismantling the national bank in this moment, and he is enforcing the removal of Native Americans off their lands. So there's a lot changing. Not for the better. Europe in 1836. Just to give a sense of the other side of the pond, industrial cities in Britain, France, Germany, across Europe are growing really fast. But with that, this coming social unrest we've heard so much about these early decades of the 19th century and the class tension that the Industrial Revolution kind of highlights. Of course, it's always there, but it is absolutely kind of put under a spotlight in this moment. And there's new policing that's aimed at controlling the poor, but also people who are deemed immoral. And that's a label that's gonna cover a lot of different things.

[Anthony Delaney]

Comes up a lot in queer Georgians as probably not unsurprising. So this idea of immorality being the linchpin by which everybody is being judged, I mean, we're seeing it a lot in today's climate as well, actually.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, absolutely. So give us a sense, then. We've started with this really vibrant account of Mary Jones and how she behaves, how she presents herself to the world, but give us a sense of who she is and what we actually know about her.

[Anthony Delaney]

So we're not supposed to have favorites from our books and.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, I absolutely do.

[Anthony Delaney]

We're allowed to do it now. Okay. So Mary is the person for me who, if I think we're Georgians, she pops into my head. She is just so inspiring in so many different ways, and I hope we'll see that as we go through this episode. But to begin with, we know that Mary Jones was born to another name and gender identity, and that was Peter Suale. And I use that name because she used that name too. So I just follow Mary's lead. When she names herself Mary, I go with that. When she names herself Peter, I go with that. And it's. Both are necessary for her in different walks of life.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. And I think, you know, often with queer histories, they feel potentially quite modern to us. We don't necessarily have an entrenched sense that people who are queer, who we would call queer now, have existed through the whole of human history, and of course they have. But we have to look at these individuals in the context in which they live. Like, Mary is someone who lived in the 1830s. And I just think that's fascinating that you're taking that cue from her and putting her into a context whilst also elevating her history as particularly important.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, I mean, and she is, she's so, so important and for very many reasons, because she's born. We think we're fairly confident because the court records showed us on 12th December 1803. So given the context of New York at this time, there is a very good chance that she is the first member of her family that's been born outside of slavery. So that's also important that this is the context. It's not just the queer context, but it's this history, the black history of America. That's the context that she is also born into. She went by other female names as well as Mary Jones. Mary Jones is the one that appears in the legal documents and that she refers to herself as. But other people referred to her as Ms. Ophelia, Ms. Jane and Eliza Smith. Now the reason there's all of those names is because Mary Jones is also a sex worker, amongst other things. You see that with a lot of sex workers where the names in this time period will just kind of morph. So depending on who's looking for them.

[Maddy Pelling]

They may be called different things. Well, it's in Harris's list of Covent gone ladies from earlier in the 18th century. And this idea of like Personas that sex workers take on Personas and you can shift and change your mask as you go through your career to suit different clients, to suit the way that you're working, you know, how you want to present yourself. And I think that's so interesting and also it says so much about how Mary is being perceived by people externally as well, because that's such an interesting history that. And you know, you talked about the darkness that surrounds the response to Mary later on that there's Mary's history and how she is identifying and how she's presenting. But then there are also these perceptions that other people have of her, both good and bad. And to put those side by side, it's amazing that you have both of those archives that you can tell those histories together.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, it's really interesting that you talk about those perceptions because at the time we have accounts that say she lived as Mary by night, but as Peter Swally during the day. That's not strictly true and we have archival evidence to show that that's not true.

[Maddy Pelling]

Such a binary idea as well. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

Y.

[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

When she is selling sex, she's working on the Bleecker street area, which was considered a relatively polite neighborhood. So she was potentially earning a decent amount of money. So for her, and we know this from her archive, she is probably earning up to about $50 a week, which would, you know, far exceed some respectable professions. She'd be earning more than teacher, who's probably earning about $10 a week. So you know she's making a living for herself.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do we know in this moment how common trans sex workers? Is this something that clients were specifically seeking out in this moment? Was it just commonplace?

[Anthony Delaney]

It's very difficult to say because one of the subtitle of the book is Hidden History of Lovers, law workers and coworkers. Mary wanted her gender identity to be hidden. She wasn't granted that because of the trial that ensues. So those what we would now term trans sex workers are not necessarily leaving a record that we can give an account of them. And we know for a fact that most of the men who slept with Mary, and we'll talk about how this happens, didn't know that she hadn't been born a woman. So, yeah, she has some tactics. So we'll talk about those.

[Maddy Pelling]

I have questions.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, you will.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

They did too. And so she has this incredible history that's, as you say, coinciding the queer history and the black history. And in her own testimony, which is so vital and so rare, she says that she would attend parties within the black community as herself in female attire, and then she would always dress that way. She was in New Orleans, so the more she was in the black community, she was Mary Jones.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's so interesting.

[Anthony Delaney]

When she had to enter into white spaces or she had to do certain tasks, she would assume the garb of Peter again, but within her own community. That's what, for me, leads me to say that we would understand Mary as a trans history, because where she feels most at home and most comfortable is where she is her truest form of herself, I think it's fair to say. And so that's amongst her own community.

[Maddy Pelling]

So we've heard that Mary has these various Personas or at least these monikers that are applied to her, these different names. But there is one other name that is applied to her which is far less complimentary and far more loaded, and that is that of the man monster. When does that come into play?

[Anthony Delaney]

So we know that this kicks in when she is arrested for theft, by the way. And we'll go into the details of that trial. But it comes into play then has nothing got to do with the trial, really. It is just a way of them, in a really salacious way, exposing her gender identity while she is on trial for theft or in the run up to her trial for theft. And so they, you know, you would like to think that we have passed some of these more grotesque depictions of other human beings, but I think look at the way trans people, trans women in particular, are depicted in black. Trans women particularly are depicted in modern media coverage as well. I'm not sure how far we can say we've come in many ways, so maybe it shouldn't surprise us, but that is a media given and it comes from this very famous print which bear in mind, as Maddie is describing this underneath the entire time it says the man Monster under what Maddy's about to.

[Maddy Pelling]

Describe the print here. Yeah, there's some text underneath, an image, a full length image of what looks, for all intents and purposes, like a black woman. This is Mary in a very pretty 1830s dress that has some sort of pattern. It's kind of a cream dress with these kind of light blue or grey markings on them. She is very respectably dressed in a lot of finery. She's got gorgeous white gloves on and in one hand she's holding what looks to be maybe. Is it a pocketbook, something like that?

[Anthony Delaney]

Some book?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah. She has a belt that is colour coordinated to the pocketbook and then in her other hand she has what looks to be like a little purse or a pocket or something which again, colour coordinated with this kind of mauve colored body to it and then some kind of gold handle. She's got a gorgeous little brooch holding the top of her dress together. She's got maybe pearl drop earrings, maybe shell, and some kind of gold headband in her hair. And she's got this very elegant updo that you would expect from the time with these lovely kind of curls around the front of her face and these dainty little feet you can see sticking out the bottom of her dress. With shoes that have. I always loved these shoes. You can get these now sort of ballet flats with like the straps then go up round the ankle. Absolutely love this for her. So she looks very fashionable, very dignified, dignified, Very, very respectable.

[Anthony Delaney]

She is so. That face is so together and so strong.

[Maddy Pelling]

So coded, feminine.

[Anthony Delaney]

It is very feminine. Coded. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, this is the least monstrous thing I have ever seen in my entire life.

[Maddy Pelling]

And underneath you then have the text, the man Monster in big capital letters, bold. And then beneath that it says, Peter Sawali, alias Mary Jones. And I think this is fascinating because I've been working on women who do hoaxes at the moment. And I remember when we had a conversation, we had an episode about female husbands with Jen Mannion. And in their book they talk about this idea of deception when it comes to trans identities in the long 18th century. This idea that people who are trans are actively and purposefully deceiving other people. And the term alias here is doing a lot of work. And you see it applied to women who are hoaxers as well. This idea of criminally immorally tricking people, that you are taking on a Persona. And we know that Mary is, as you say, arrested for theft. And there's something here about her whole identity is criminal. It's a lie. And that's how it's being presented, that you seeing this image of this dignified, well to do pretty woman and then you're presented with this idea of the monster beneath.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

That kind of duality is.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's what they want to scare you with. Yeah, right.

[Maddy Pelling]

You don't know. You don't know who's beneath, who might pass her on the street and think, well, she looks nice, but you never know. That's the narrative here, isn't it?

[Anthony Delaney]

Speaking of passing on the street and thinking, oh, she looks nice, let's hop to 14 June 1836, when a master mason, Robert Haslam, he has just finished his interludes with another sex worker called Mary Patterson. He had taken her to Vauxhall Gardens, not the one in London, the one in New York, fulfilled the very same purposes exactly. Was built in a very similar fashion. And he had gone there, they'd had a lovely evening of sex, of course, but also of fireworks and of music. He had taken Mary Patterson into a secluded box where they had had sex together.

[Maddy Pelling]

And these are spaces that so called respectable people who are not sex workers go to and have sexual transgression as well. Right. This is kind of a sexy space where you certainly will encounter sex workers. But that's not the only clientele of a pleasure garden.

[Anthony Delaney]

Absolutely. Now Mary Patterson was another sex worker, but yeah, everyone, very high and low mix of.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, the whole gamut of society. As long as you can pay the entrance fee.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. Yeah. But that transaction finishes and Haslam leaves Patterson and soon afterwards, on his way home, he meets another woman.

[Maddy Pelling]

He's got a lot of stamina.

[Anthony Delaney]

Her lady.

[Maddy Pelling]

Good for you, Robert.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're off with yourself. And he engages the services of. Well, he approaches Mary Jones. He thinks, well, there's a beautiful woman, I am going to approach her. She claims that she is heading to her aunt's house and she uses this often with her clients. We're like, oh, I'm just going to my aunt's house, I'm just going to my granny's house. She says, sometimes. So it's all very domestic and it's all very.

[Maddy Pelling]

Is that a way of staying safe? Is that part of the pursuit Persona, the character that she's selling?

[Anthony Delaney]

It's part of the character that she's selling. It's part of the fantasy, I think, that she's selling. Very demure, very demure, very mindful. Yeah, absolutely. But they end up in a less demure place because they are in an alley off Green Street. Now, she lives on Green Street, Mary Jones does. And they have sex. No suspicion is aroused. I'll tell you how in a minute. Haslam returns home, and he discovers that he is missing $99 from a pocketbook that he was carrying on him.

[Maddy Pelling]

So Mary is an irritating amount.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know, I know, I know.

[Maddy Pelling]

You're for the full hundred bab.

[Anthony Delaney]

He's missing his whole pocketbook. And in there, he had a thing for $99. It has been replaced. I don't get this detail, but here we are. Nonetheless, it has been replaced with another pocket wallet which contains $200. So actually, he's all. But it's an order for $200.

[Maddy Pelling]

Robert, be quiet. Shush.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay? He does that at first. He goes home and he's like, that's embarrassing. I can't let somebody know that I engaged the services of a sex worker and I was robbed, so I'm just gonna leave it as it is. Yeah, that's what he thinks. But then, well, it's made out to another person. It's a money order for $200, and it's made out in somebody else's name, so he can't really collect it.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so he really is down $99. Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

And so he goes the next day, he's like, look, okay, I need to get $99. A lot of money, by the way. So he goes the next day to be like, right, Constable Bauer, you're my guy. I'm telling you what happened. I now have this pocketbook, but it belongs to another man. It's not mine. I have his name here. And Bauer goes, well, we have his name. We can find him. Which he does initially.

[Maddy Pelling]

Let me guess what they have in common.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. And initially, the first guy's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never heard of any of these people. I don't know where my name came from. And then eventually, he goes, yes, I was also with Mary Jones in this general vicinity, and yes, she did take my pocketbook. Now, why she put this other pocketbook back in Haslam's pocket, I will never be able to understand that. But she did. So Constable Bower now goes, well, we found this other victim. Now we need to go and find Mary Jones, because Mary is who we're looking for. So he and his cousin and they.

[Maddy Pelling]

All settle for the aunt's house?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Yeah, well, kind of. They go towards Green street. And is it his cousin or his brother, one or the other a family member. Anyway, he takes with him and he says, you need to stay with me and we'll just stake her out and see if we can find her and see if we can approach her but not engage her services, but, like, see if she'll try and rob us, maybe. Anyway, somehow they become separated. I have a feeling the brother cousin is off doing his own things in his own time, and that's fine, but Bower is still on duty and he's still trying to solve this crime. He eventually comes across Mary and he's like, oh. They start flirting. She's like, oh, I'm going to my granny's house. Why don't you come along with me? And he becomes, you know, this is all in the book, in more detail, because this is quite an entertaining exchange. He becomes very coy at this point, it seems very genuinely coy, where he's like, oh, I don't want to actually have sex with this person, but I need to catch her for robbing and all this kind of thing. And he keeps trying to, like, oh, no. They go into the alley where Haslam and Mary had gone the night before and they're together and, you know, it's all about to get a bit heated and he's like, no, no, just go up to the top of the road and check that nobody's coming. And he gets her to do that twice because he's like, where is my brother slash cousin? And he doesn't arrive. And he's like, oh, I'm just gonna have to apprehend her myself. So he goes, right, we're getting too close now. You're Nick. Mary panics and she takes pocket wallets out of her dress, throws them on the ground and makes a run for it. And he catches her and then goes back and retrieves the wallets, one of whom belongs to Haslam. So he has his proof. He has his proof. So she is then taken to the local watch house and she is detained.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so going into police custody in this moment, I'm assuming there's going to be some kind of search of her person, given that she had the pocketbooks hidden within her dress.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, this is how we know about Mary Jones, because she has searched at the watch house. And it's so bizarre because the sun newspaper at the time, the Herald at the time, they report the findings. And this is how Mary gets one of her other names. Mary has fashioned for herself a girdle of sorts made from beef.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, this is not where I thought this was gonna go.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. So, made from beef, it's fastened with a kind of a belt facility around her groin. And so the men that she's engaging in sex within the alleys think that she has a vagina. And so these are details that are printed in one of the. Who is it? The Sun? Yeah, the sun newspaper at the time gives this detail, but it's all in Latin, so most of the readers won't be able to know what they're saying. So, thankfully, we can translate that now. And we know it's basically that it describes in detail what she's wearing. It's in the book. You can go and read it there. And the sun is less explicit, but it does say that she has most effectually disguised her sex, is what they say. So she has been quite determined in her work as a sex worker, and she has.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm fascinated by this because it's incredibly creative and entrepreneurial. How common do you think this was?

[Anthony Delaney]

I mean, I guess we'll never heard of it before. That's the only time I've ever come across this in any of the work I've done on sex workers or on people who have trans their gender identity. I've never come across that detail. But if I were to hazard a guess, Mary's not the first or only person doing this. There will be a network, I would imagine, based on the wider archival scope, a network of what we would now term trans sex workers who are doing similar things and have shared this information amongst them. That, to me, seems like the most likely thing.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so, thank you. Discover this situation.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, once they've got over the initial surprise, what is the response?

[Anthony Delaney]

So you can imagine it's outrage and it's all of these things. But one of the things that I found most fascinating, and actually I alluded to another nickname she gets because of that. So because the male name that she uses is Peter Suelli, she becomes known as Beefsteak Pete after this as well. So it's, you know, they go for the headlines with this. So one of the most surprising reactions, which is what you asked about, what happens after this, is that she starts getting formally processed through the legal system.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

And this I did not expect. Throughout almost every document, bar one, and we're going to talk about that document in a minute, she is referred to as either Mary Jones and Peter Suelley or just Mary Jones. So, so here we have this. As far as we've known before, trans identities in legal cases in the United States didn't come into effect. I think it's until the 1960s, so the 20th century. Here we have legal processing using Mary Jones female name either alongside Granted or instead of Peter Suale. And I think that's really interesting. They do process Mary Jones, not just Peter Soally that's interesting that she's acknowledged there's a legal recognition of her identity here. But what I found when I was going through all of these documents is also really telling. And it's one of the reasons why I decided to write Queer Georgians, because it's not that we didn't know these histories. We don't know these histories in a lot of cases. It's that these histories have been deliberately taken away from queer people. They have been obscured. And I have an example that comes up in Mary's archive, which I would love for you to describe. So we can see this in kind of firsthand hand.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. So I'm looking at a photograph of a document on yellowing paper. And there is printed text. It's a form that needs to be filled in. And then there is handwritten text where the form has been filled. So it says, city and county of New York, the jurors of the people of the state of New York in and for the body of the city and county of New York upon the oath, present New York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New York. Present that. And then there's a name, and we see written in ink, Peter Sawali. And then there is another part of the name which is faded, possibly erased, and beneath that the form continues late of the first. Does that say ward of the city of New York in the county of New York, aforesaid labourer, otherwise called Mary Jones.

[Anthony Delaney]

So you would skip that last sentence if you were to just look at this particular entry. But if you look up ahead where you said it looks like something has been erased.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes. Where it says Peter Swally in ink, handwritten in.

[Anthony Delaney]

And that is the official naming line. So that's where the person gets officially named. What the labourer, otherwise known as Mary Jones, is the description. There has been a detail there, and that detail was Mary Jones's name, alias Mary Jones, on the official naming line of this document. But somebody has gone back in, and we don't know when exactly whether this happened in 1830s, whether it happened in the 20th century, but at some point somebody has gone in and tried to erase. And you can barely make it out. Matty. You kind of see the shape of the name.

[Maddy Pelling]

Now you've said it says alias Mary Jones. I can see that. But the paper itself, I mean, it's puckered and it's a lighter colour, like it has been rubbed out almost with an eraser or that's what I imagine.

[Anthony Delaney]

This is, an eraser job.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

And so they are literally trying to erase Mary Jones from the historical record.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, it's so amazing here that you have a visual, literal, material representation of the erasure of a queer person.

[Anthony Delaney]

And it's not the only one. There are other examples in the book and there are other examples beyond the book. It just goes to show that if anybody ever tries to say there were no queer people at this time, or they didn't, you know, sure, nobody called themselves queer at this time, but nobody called themselves Georgians either. And nobody takes issue with the Georgians part. This is just what we do as historians to try and tell these histories.

[Maddy Pelling]

And do you know what? It makes me think as well, that this might be a later erasure, because you said in the other contemporary documents that often Mary's called Mary and sometimes she's called Peter, and it can be interchangeable. They understand it in those terms that she is using both. And to me, this potentially might be a later.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you know, that's literally my gut instinct. We don't know. We haven't dated the erasure, we can't do that. But that's my gut instinct too, that it's actually probably a much later erasure. Don't know why. I think that Based on nothing. Only gut instinct, as I say.

[Maddy Pelling]

But that is gut instinct. And the evidence that her name is elsewhere used without question.

[Anthony Delaney]

True, true, true. But, you know, we do forget in this that she has robbed Robert Haslam.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

She has committed a crime. Yes. So there is going to be a trial. She is not on trial for her gender nonconformity. She's not on trial for her identity, but she is on trial for theft. You wouldn't necessarily know it, though. So we are going the very next day, the 16th of June, 1836. This is the course of the grand sessions. We're in New York, obviously, she enters as she had been dressed the night before, and that is what you described. That beautiful dress, really well put together.

[Maddy Pelling]

Presumably, minus the beef this time.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's no point on the beef on the trial day. No, that's absolutely true. The gallery is packed because this has already gotten around parts of the city that this woman is going to be tried. And, you know, this is less than 24 hours later.

[Maddy Pelling]

And I suppose, you know, thinking about that idea of deception as perceived in the press as this narrative that's put forward, that this is someone who has tricked straight men into having sex with her when they didn't know who she really was. And I suppose so many men are coming to this trial not only because it's a sensational story in the press, but also because maybe a lot of them do use sex workers in the area and, you know, want to kind of go and see what the situation is and what the truth is and maybe what they've been getting into, literally.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's interesting, they have this thing where they see her as a joke. They undermine her by positioning her as a joke. So much so that the official court recorder is recorded as having laughed until he cried when she appeared in court. Now, we talked about where the dark history is lying in this thing. That feels very mean to me.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, you talked to the. The opening narrative about people snatching the wig off Mary's head. There's a sort of visceral, brutish desire to strip her down, tear you apart. Yeah. And to take the accoutrements of femininity as understood by everyone in that room, away from her.

[Anthony Delaney]

And not only because she has transed her gender identity, but because she is black and has transed her gender identity. This is the meeting point of something very. What they see as something that needs to be undermined in their, you know, white, middle class eyes.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes. Mary as a black trans person, occupies a part of society and as A sex worker as well, a part of society that is frequented by all manner of people. People have paid for her services, but there's no desire to acknowledge that she occupies a space where people don't necessarily want to know she's, you know, in their eyes, very lowly and unimportant. And so to be presented with the reality, the truth of who this person is that, you know, ordinary men have been dealing with, there's again, it's a sort of a shock factor. Right. That people want to come and see. It's like. And again, I'm talking in terms of how they would understand it, but it's sort of like picking up a rock and looking underneath, sort of peering in. Oh, you know, looking. Seeing the reality and all its. I would say, glory here, but in all its.

[Anthony Delaney]

They weren't basking in that.

[Maddy Pelling]

The naked truth of it is shocking and troubling to the people who hold more power than Mary in the society.

[Anthony Delaney]

The great thing about this trial, if there is a great thing, is that we get her testimony and we hear that she. And this is probably not true by this point. I think from what we can discern, it was true at some point, but that she made her living from waiting. So as a waiter, when she was Peter Swalli. So Peter Suale was a waiter. Mary Jones is not. So waiting for black free men in New York was a very customary way for them to eke a living at that point. But she was asked, despite the fact that her gender identity is not on trial, she was asked why she presents as she presents. And she says she did that because the other sex workers that she was around, quote, they induced me to dress in women's clothes, saying I looked so much better in them. Now, I think it's a very simplified acknowledgement of what has happened here in terms of Mary's identity.

[Maddy Pelling]

And it also puts the autonomy on other people, not on Mary herself.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. Because you have to consider that the context of this is trial. Right?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

But the other thing about it is it also hints at community. It also hints at this kind of female community that Mary's part of. Totally like. And it's that female community that she finds herself part of. And this is where she also says that she always dressed this way in New Orleans and attends parties among the people of my own color. Those are her words in female attire. But again, it's very difficult to sometimes remember. She is not on trial here for her gender presentation. That is not illegal. And that was commented upon at the time. It was Said she can do what she wants.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, really?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was not what was on trial. She can do what she wants legally, but socially, in terms of the media, they're not letting her away with it. And it is the main concern of this trial in many ways, despite the fact, again, that that's not what she is on TR for. She denies the fact that she robbed these things. I mean, you know, I am again, Team Mary all the way. But come on, they found it on you. You. You threw away one of the pocketbooks. So the evidence is strong. And I suppose it's not surprising that she is found guilty. The jury deliberate for a very short amount of time, and then she is sentenced to time in Sing Sing Prison, which is known as. You know, it's like New York's Newgate, I guess it's the House of Fear. This is an institute of correction, and the inmates are laboring there in stone quarries under the Auburn system. So that meant when you hear of, like, chain gangs, they're. They're manacled together. So they have to go in lockstep. They have to, you know, this is a harsh, harsh, harsh system.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. And a complete stripping back of any personal identity whatsoever for any inmate.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. It is yet another step in the dehumanizing of this person. From the discovery to the Man Monster Label to Beefsteak Pete to the trial where the wig is ripped off her head. And now we're in Sing Sing, where everybody, not just Mary, is being dehumanized on different levels for, you know, okay, yes, she. She, again, she stole the things, but, you know, we're eking out a living.

[Maddy Pelling]

The worst crime being committed in New York City.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're eking out a living, and this is what she has to do. But that I am so glad to say. And this was my happiest discovery in the thing is not the end of Mary Jones. How many times in episod after arc we go, and that's the last we know of them. Not Mary Jones.

[Maddy Pelling]

Tell me more.

[Anthony Delaney]

She does not go down easily.

[Maddy Pelling]

Something told me she would not.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, she comes back again and again and again. She often gets targeted under theft laws, grand larceny laws.

[Maddy Pelling]

Again, Mary, learn your lesson.

[Anthony Delaney]

She sticks to her trade various times in the future under vagrancy laws. Now, vagrancy laws were a bit of everything and a bit of nothing at the same time. People could be. Be arrested for being somewhere they shouldn't have been at a time of day they shouldn't have been And a lot of people who trans their gender identity are picked up in this way under vagrancy laws.

[Maddy Pelling]

Interesting.

[Anthony Delaney]

They usually say, oh, it's because you were drinking, oh, you were standing there for too long, or whatever it is. It's never. We have a suspicion about your gender identity.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's a kind of catch all to organize, remove, process people who are marginal in society. Right. It's not necessarily people who are living full time on the street.

[Anthony Delaney]

Absolutely. And we know for a fact that Mary continues to present as female after her prison sentence in Sing Sing. So you know, Mary is surviving on these streets when she's out there in 1844. And this is so interesting to me. She just keeps giving archival gems.

[Maddy Pelling]

So hold on, 1844? So like 20 years?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, so 10 years, 8 years. 1836.

[Maddy Pelling]

Maths. Okay.

[Anthony Delaney]

She's arrested first in 1836 and then 1844.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm with you.

[Anthony Delaney]

So we're eking out of the Georgians now, but I just think it's important so we get a bit of a context of her life. She's arrested in 1844 with a man named John Williams, alias Joseph Linus. So you're talking about these aliases. And John Joseph is not the most trusted man in the entire world. He also has some dodgy stuff going on. Although he is apparently a genteel looking fellow. It is noted at his arrest, but he has got his own criminal record when he is arrested. There is what seems to be an unusual document. But in these queer histories, in these trans histories particularly.

[Maddy Pelling]

This is something that keeps coming up.

[Anthony Delaney]

This is something that keeps coming up.

[Maddy Pelling]

This document, this incredible document, I'm so excited. Is found on Peter. Mary presenting as Peter in this moment.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. I just haven't come across anything like this before. Before it says, I, Joseph Linus, do hereby certify that I have taken an oath in the presence of Theodore Augustus Jackson, that I will be a friend to Peter soarily till death separates us. He giving me the privilege to marry the girl of my choice, provided she is beyond doubt virtuous. I also swear to tell him everything of the least moment that transpires concerning either of us through life. And this I do voluntarily swear before God and man, signed Joseph Linus, October 3, 1844. Have you ever seen anything like that before?

[Maddy Pelling]

No.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm sorry if we're getting a bit historian y and this.

[Maddy Pelling]

But I mean, this is, this is amazing. I mean, obviously you have the language in there. Till death separates us. These feel like wedding vows, but Also, this gives a sense of maybe how some queer relationships may have organized themselves in that he's dedicating himself till death parts us as a friend to Peter. And I think friend's doing heavy lifting there, let's be honest. But then saying I'm allowed. Peter's allowing me to go and marry a woman as long as I tell him everything that transpires between the two of us.

[Anthony Delaney]

And she has to be a virtuous woman. So there's a potential inference there that it's not a sexual relationship.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. And. And I will tell him everything of the least moment that transpires between us because there's not going to be much.

[Anthony Delaney]

This was found on him and printed in the newspaper. So I'll caveat that by saying this is a printed version.

[Maddy Pelling]

He's been through lots of different hands.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. But there is a similar document found on George Wilson, who is what we would now term a trans man, and that is found on him when he is arrested for his vagrancy.

[Maddy Pelling]

And this is another person in the book.

[Anthony Delaney]

There's another person in the book. So very similar document. I just wonder if there are coping mechanisms that queer people in New York specifically, I don't see this in England, but if in New York specifically, there are coping mechanisms that people are employing just in case they're taken up or. I don't know. I don't know what it is exactly, but it's just really fascinating.

[Maddy Pelling]

Is it a coping mechanism or is it also a way of structuring your relationship, of giving it some officiality in a way that isn't available to queer people at this time in the same way that it is to heterosexual people getting married?

[Anthony Delaney]

I think all of the above. Either way, I should point out, Mary's arrested again because of this discovery, and not because of this discovery, but because of the theft that they're both involved in? And she goes to prison. In 1845 and 1846, she goes to prison again on separate occasions. And later that same year, twice in 1846, in fact, she is taken up again for parading in women's clothing.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wait, so this is illegal by the.

[Anthony Delaney]

1840S, just under the vagrancy. So it's not illegal, it's just under the Vagrancy Act. Again, it's just the description of parading. She was parading in women's clothing at the time under the Vagrancy Act.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, that's fascinating, isn't it, that it's sort of an issue, but not really.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, they Describe her as. Yeah, parading. But they also say she is tricked out in female apparel of the most fashionable style and cut, sporting the newest shaped hat. So that's in 1840.

[Maddy Pelling]

Career and thefts paying off very well, Mary.

[Anthony Delaney]

Exactly. Why does she keep dressing as a woman? As they see it, why does she keep dressing as a woman? And one newspaper says it like this, it's because her ruling passion appears too strong for punishment to subdue. So her ruling, they're almost saying she has no choice in this. Yeah, not in so many words, but that is what they are saying, that whatever her ruling passion is, even punishment can't subdue it. I mean, they're talking about the theft there as well.

[Maddy Pelling]

But, you know, I find this history so fascinating because on the one hand, you talked about this very dark history and at the trial, this attempt to humiliate her, to strip her down, you know, literally taking the wig off her head and to sort of get to the bottom of who this trickster is. Like, she's betrayed all these men that she's been having sex with, and that's unacceptable as a society. Even though, you know, the moral questions at the time around sex work very much shelved when it's not convenient for men who actually want to buy sex. You know, all that aside, there's this kind of rush to punish and humiliate her. But also what we see in the written archive, in the newspapers that you're talking about in some of the record keeping, not all of it, is maybe not an acceptance of how she presented and what her identity was, but an understanding of why she did that and that that was a fluid thing throughout her life. That changed, and that's just how it was.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. I mean, maybe I would caveat the word understanding and say acknowledgement that they maybe don't understand it, but they're going, I have to acknowledge that Mary Jones is here. And that's the last thing we see is Mary Jones in 1846, 10 years.

[Maddy Pelling]

After her first divorce, wearing her best outfit.

[Anthony Delaney]

She's living her best life wearing her best outfit, wearing the best hat. And I think this is why I love Mary so much, and this is why she is who lingers with me outside of these pages when I'm in life generally, because we see the attempt to claw her down, as you're just describing, and to put her down and to strip her away and to all of those things. And we see very blatant racism. We see very blatant what we would now term transphobia and the attitudes towards the working classes. Obviously, that's totally inseparable, in this case from issues around race. But she, for me, just becomes the most visible column of resistance and resilience. She is determined to carve out a place for herself in a world that does not wish her to find that place. And she will not allow them to grind her down, down and that. I mean, sometimes I think I'm paraphrasing myself here now, but I think the way I kind of end the book is by going. Sometimes just keeping on, keeping on is how you make history. And Mary Jones is a really good example of that. Like, she's not fighting wars, she is not changing legislation, she is not uprooting systems of government. She just gets back up every single time. And that, that is the history I'm interested in.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, I think that's a perfect place to end. Anthony Delaney, guest of After Dark. Where can people purchase this excellent book?

[Anthony Delaney]

You can get Queer Georgians wherever you buy your books, online, in stores, wherever it might be. If you're listening in the uk, Ireland and Commonwealth, then it's out now. If you're listening in North America, then It's released on the 7th of October and is called Queer Enlightenments. And yeah, go and find out a little bit more about Mary and find her comrades. It's out. It's out now.

[Maddy Pelling]

Maddie, please do. And, you know, please support us by buying Anthony's book. You know, especially if you enjoy the podcast. You've been enjoying it for the last two years. It really, really, really, really helps us to keep working, to keep writing books if people buy them. So please, please, please, if you enjoy our work at all, do go out and do that. Thank you for listening to this episode of After Dark. You can now find us on YouTube. You can watch our faces talking into a camera. If you have ideas is for episodes in particular Queer Histories. I think we'd like to cover more queer histories. If you want to get in touch with us with a queer history you'd like to hear about or any other topic, you can do so after darkhistoryhit.com.

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