← After Party with Emily Jashinsky
After Party with Emily Jashinsky
Dem Tea Party Moment and Why Zohran Worries Hakeem, with Tim Miller, and Why Millennials Love Taylor
01:20:52
Emily Jashinsky begins by addressing Wednesday’s tragic shooting at a Minneapolis Catholic school and why prayer is so important to Christians. Then Emily is joined by Tim Miller, Host of “The Bulwark Podcast,” to discuss the new Doug Sosnik memo put out by POLITICO Playbook on the 2026 cycle and why it’s unlikely Democrats will make major gains, if the Democrats are facing their own Tea Party moment, why Hakeem Jeffries may really be hesitant to endorse Zohran Mamdani, plus the ridiculous story of Mamdani’s supporters taking part in a scavenger hunt through the streets of NYC. They also discuss Tim’s evolution from political strategist with Republican campaigns including Jeb Bush 2016 and John McCain 2008. Then Emily talks about one of the biggest cultural stories of the year…the engagement of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, and why it matters so much to millennials. Finally, Emily checks our viewer mailbag to answer some of your burning questions. PreBorn: Help save a baby go ...
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- [00:00]
Emily J
Moms and dads. Do you wish you could know where your kids shoes are at all times? Now you can with Skecher's newest Apple AirTag compatible sneakers. Find My Skechers. There's a clever hidden Airtag compartment under the shoe's insole. It's sleek, secure and your child can't feel or see it. Then you can check where your kids shoes are on the Find My app. Plus they're available for boys and girls. Get Find my sketchers@skechers.com, a Skechers store near you or wherever kids shoes are sold. Apple AirTags sold separately. Welcome to After Buddy, everyone. I have a big smile on my face because I was just like in our virtual backstage place with our guest, who's the one and only Tim Miller. He's the host of the Bulwark Podcast. We're going to bring Tim in in just one moment because we have a lot to get to. Tim actually interviewed our favorite politician on the show, Hakeem Jeffries, recently and got the better of him in an exchange on Zoran Mamdani. I want to talk to Tim also about the Mamdani scavenger hun that was, I mean, just a sight to behold throughout New York City over the weekend. So we're absolutely going to get to that. We're going to get to a new memo that's bouncing around Washington, D.C. with some very interesting information for Democrats. And also I really just want to talk to Tim about his background, what it's been like over the past 10 years as he's gone from a Republican strategist to, as I mentioned, the host of the Bulwark Podcast and somebody who is enormously critical of the Republican Party. So we will get to that in just one moment. Moment. Before we do, I do have a couple of thoughts on the tragedy roiling Minneapolis right now. Obviously, you've heard by now that there were two students killed in a shooting in Minneapolis earlier today. We are still still learning a lot of information about the shooter. So there's going to be much more to be said about what happened today in Minneapolis. There are still some little kids from this Catholic school that are in the hospital. The shooter did kill themselves on the scene. So we'll get into all of that, I'm sure, in the days to come. But for now, I just have a brief reaction to Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry, who had this to say at a press briefing after the tragedy.
- [02:24]
Tim Miller
These were Minneapolis families. These were American families. And the amount of pain that they are suffering right now is extraordinary. And don't just say, this is about thoughts and prayers right now. These kids were literally praying. It was the first week of school. They were in a church. These are kids that should be learning with their friends. They should be playing on the playground. They should be able to go to school or church in peace without the fear or risk of violence. And their parents should have the same kind of assurance.
- [03:05]
Emily J
So Jacob Fry, obviously a Democrat who was supportive of more gun control, and, you know, we can all agree that these kids still should be playing on the playground. One of the things that really irked me, and I think it probably upset a lot of people, too, maybe even some people in the Minneapolis area, whether they're on the right or the left, is this idea that what is offered after tragedies like this is only thoughts in prayer. He used the word in that quote. Just. He said, this is not just about thoughts and prayer. That's actually also a sentiment that everybody can agree with. It sets up a giant strawman to say that people only believe thoughts and prayers are the answer to this problem. Now, I understand his deep frustration in that moment. I understand the frustration of people who support more gun control. Actually. I. You know, in some ways, I think there are ways that we can. Or in some ways, I think there are policies that can reform our gun laws and we can rethink our gun laws in certain ways, and we don't have to get into that right now. But the point is, if you say thoughts and prayers after a mass shooting, virtually nobody is saying that shouldn't mean, for example, you have to have tighter security. The doors should lock to the front of the school, which is a sad state of affairs anyway, but basically everyone would agree on something like that. Now, I'm not saying it's the right answer, but I'm saying nobody is saying we can just pray away tragedy, that prayer is the only shield. I mean, that is. That is not biblical. Read the Book of Job. Read Paul, who talks about glory in suffering, somebody who suffered enormously. That is not what Christians are saying when they're saying thoughts and prayers. It's not a matter of just. And so I think hearing that from Jacob Fry, after some of the early evidence suggested that there is a targeting of Christians in this case. And by the way, little Catholic kids were shot and killed while they were praying, as he says there, to actually, I think, make a disingenuous strawman article about disingenuous straw man argument about thoughts and prayers. No matter how frustrated you are, the world is Better with prayer. And to denigrate prayer is not only, I think, politically silly, it's a cheap hit on people of faith. And, you know, people who are praying don't believe that they will be shielded from earthly tragedy by praying or doing good works. He can make his point about gun control, and that is fine. And I expect he will continue to do so without a jab at this question of thoughts and prayers or at people's instinct to offer thoughts and prayers. So I wanted to kind of get that one off my chest because we hear from a lot of folks. Jen Psaki also repeated the line, again, I get your frustration and I fully understand that people are irritated when Republican politicians do not agree with gun control legislation, do not agree, do not come to the table and want to increase gun control. I completely understand that frustration. And it is a very difficult discussion and a very emotional debate. We don't have to have it here to, I think, point out that nobody, literally nobody is saying thoughts and prayers on their own will suffice that there aren't other steps we can take, whether they're with gun control legislation, whether they're with parenting, whether they're with school security, all those other things. Some Republicans think there should be more teachers that are armed. Again, I don't know. I'm sure most people in this country disagree with that. But it's also a complimentary with an E c o m P L E M e n t to the thoughts and prayers by their own argument. So it doesn't even. That undercuts the argument that this is quote, just about thoughts and prayers, as Mayor Jacob Fry did today and I think failed a real leadership test. So on that very sad and tragic note, it's Wednesday night. We're live here at 10pm as we are every Monday and Wednesday night. And I'm happy to have Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark Podcast, joining us on this, this Wednesday evening. Tim, thank you for being here.
- [07:20]
Tim Miller
Hey, girl. Happy to do it. That's tough to transition out of.
- [07:23]
Emily J
I know.
- [07:24]
Tim Miller
You know, these are just brutal days sometimes.
- [07:27]
Emily J
Yeah, they really are. And Tim, actually, I'm curious, maybe we just stay on this topic right now because you have. I hope you can. People probably know you from the Bulwark Podcast is massively successful and people probably know you as a Trump critic at this point. Some people might not know your full backstory. And we knew each other when you were back in your Republican consultant days when you probably had a very different opinion on gun control. And maybe I shouldn't Say, very different, but you probably had a different opinion on gun control and were surrounded by people all of the time who did. So as you've thought about issues like this and many others, you're not one of those people who just flipped and became anti Trump, but didn't sort of change at all politically. Like, you've actually undergone a political evolution. So what's it been like for you to think back on how you saw issues like this? But also even just like health care, like big government versus small government, all of those different things now that you're on the other side of it?
- [08:29]
Tim Miller
I don't know how much my view of big government versus small government has changed. I think my priorities have changed about what is important. I think it's weird some people who act as if, like it is a virtue to, you know, to be a never Trumper who maintained every single position you had before you spoke out against the president of a party. And I just. That doesn't ever make sense to me. I was like, look, if somebody that I find just to be candid, repulsive in, like, almost every way, and someone I find totally acceptable in every way became the leader of the party that I was working for, like, maybe I was missing some things other than just that. Like, maybe it was about stuff more than Trump. And, you know, and so I. I definitely did. I reflected and evolved views on various issues. Some things I've remained the same on. I certainly will get into Zoran. I certainly have some that's not like full blue pill on a variety of issues Zoran on, and gave him the business on a few things. And, you know, but like, I think all of us, um, I think maybe this is something that could resonate with everybody, which is particularly people who are really involved in politics, you know, which is you have a few issues that you're really acutely passionate about. Right. And. And a lot of times, particularly when we're younger, like, those are the issues that draw us to one party or another. Like, I was super, you know, into American exceptionalism and science, Shining City on the Hill and smaller government and. Right. And like letting in this. Porting entrepreneurs. My dad was a real kind of traditional, don't roll your eyes like up from his bootstraps guy, right? Like a couple of the. On some of. I was. I was genuinely drawn to the party. And then you kind of backfill on some of the others where, like, you don't have as strong of views. Like, well, I guess I'll just. I guess I have the same view as other as these people that I respect, you know, that I look up to in this party have on those issues and, you know, I don't think that deeply about them. So I don't. That's kind of how I felt like on guns. And I was always a little bit squishier than other Republicans on guns. I remember getting in a fight with your boy Sean Spicer at the RNC actually when I was a little bit older and he was my boss at the time and.
- [10:38]
Emily J
Oh, that's right.
- [10:40]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah, it was after Newtown and I was, you know, I was a party spokesperson. So I was going to say this publicly, but I was in his office, we were working through statements and I was like, you know, I mean, do we really need high capacity magazines? I mean, I get it, I get protecting yourself, but like, does anybody, is anybody ever in a situation where they really need 15 rounds to protect themselves? Like, I don't think I shouldn't we explore things such as this, like, might that have helped save more kids if like the guy had to reload more times? Like, it was just kind of like an off the cuff conversation and, and it created a little consternation in the office and I realized, you know, maybe, maybe I should have realized early I was a little more out of step than I, than I thought with the Republicans based on the pushback. I got to that. But anyway, long story short, this is the issue. Whenever anybody asked me, what have you changed your mind on most during the Trump era? The answer really has nothing to do with Trump, is just the gun stuff. And I don't know, it might be a combo of being a dad now and the fact that I was never really a big gun person myself and I'm not really trying to go steal people's guns, but I, I just think the culture in our country around guns is really kind of sick. And, and I think that, like, you don't see, you just don't see this stuff in other places. And I don't know, maybe I'm just too, I've become too soft or whatever. But I just, the Uvalde thing really hit me and these images today and I'm just like, I don't, I don't know, I think that we need to have some kind of reckoning and reflection on our cultural fetishization of guns in this country that is really different than other countries and we see a really, a far worse result. And I think I'm more open to changes on that than I would have been, obviously back when I was a Republican flag.
- [12:22]
Emily J
So the Spicer anecdote is really interesting because I actually recommend your book to people who are looking at a glimpse inside of what DC Is actually like, because it's written as a memoir and you reflect on moments exactly like that where somebody who's in the position as a spokesperson for the Republican Party at that point is in this very unusual position of. For professional reasons, because it's your 9 to 5 or at that time, it was probably like 5 to 11, going out there and making an argument that they don't necessarily believe in for as you would have justified it at the time, the greater good. And that is such an interesting. I mean, now you're in media, and I'm curious for your sense of this as somebody who's like, crushing it in new media. And from the kind of center which is where there's probably the biggest dearth of new media superstars, it's all about authenticity. I feel like that's what makes you successful, and that's the opposite of where you came from.
- [13:24]
Tim Miller
Yeah. You're making me blush, Emily. I was expecting a fight. No, just world. Thank you. It's a much better fit for me, honestly. I love it. It's good. I feel bad now because you get asked to speak to college classes and stuff and kids who are very excited about going into politics. I'm kind of like, I have to give them an answer that I don't know that they want to hear, which is like. It was, in retrospect, it was kind of soul crushing for me to do PR and to do spin for candidates. And I kind of compartmentalized the soul crushing part. And I feel like it's been really good, holistically for me to be away from that and just to tell people whatever I think and, you know, and the worst consequences are that people get mad. I don't know. You know, people got really. The bulwark was, as you mentioned, as being centrist was obviously we had a lot of big bite to the extent that Biden super fans existed, a lot of them bulwark consumers.
- [14:14]
Emily J
Right, right.
- [14:15]
Tim Miller
And, like, I was furious at him, you know, essentially, like from the. The debate all the way through now all the way through today. I just, I think that his behavior has been appalling, like, from. From debate night all the way through today and maybe prior. But, you know, and so you get. You get people pissed at you or whatever in the comments. But that's. I don't know, I kind of enjoy that. It's kind of freeing that's that, which is way different. That's way different than, like, feeling you have to say something, feel like you have to lie for somebody. You have to spin, have to do things that are outside of your values. So I don't know. And there's, you know, beginning in politics, especially if you, you know, have candidates you care about and there's a good reason to get into politics. Of course, I think that there's a lot of excitement and being in politics and, and you can do good things, for sure. But I don't know. I've, I've loved this change. I feel like it's much more me where I can just do radical candor instead of bullshitting. And I, I think I would have been a bad White House press secretary anyway, even if any of my terrible candidates had won. You can anyone watching when I rewatch the clips of my against my Will on Twitter or whatever, I'm like, look at my face. You know, you know exactly what I think about the person I'm interviewing just based on my face. Like, it doesn't matter what I'm going to say. So it was probably not a good fit for me anyway.
- [15:31]
Emily J
I love that. That reminded me, actually, while you were talking about now being asked to go to college campuses and give advice to students who are super jazzed about politics, I think one of the first times we met Tim was we were on this panel. This is the headline at GW today. Successful Alumni Offer Pointers on Washington Care. Here you are. There's me in my full cable news drag.
- [15:56]
Tim Miller
Is that Gabby? I can't really see who else is there.
- [15:58]
Emily J
Gabby 2017. What a time. But when you look at people who are in those positions now, do you think they are acting morally? That is a question. I think about a lot of my friends, some of whom, you know, who work in comms and are flacking who you know, we know, particularly with Trump, is a very good example that people have to go out and defend tweets with a dead straight face about I don't know what, like, name it, Seth Meyers one in the morning yesterday. As funny as that is, people have to go out there and defend that stuff. And people defending right now, like the intel deal, for example, I'm sure they never would have defended in 2012. Maybe they've changed, maybe they haven't. But how do you think about people in those positions today?
- [16:45]
Tim Miller
Yeah, and I think it's complicated. Right. You know, the advice I do give in this sense, like, you want to go into politics and you want to be in it is just do stuff that's within your integrity. I don't know, it's spinning for your boss on the, on the 10% intel deal. That's probably not outside my integrity. I could probably do that. Feel like that was not, you know, I, I don't know. You know what I mean?
- [17:09]
Emily J
Like, what the hell.
- [17:10]
Tim Miller
There's certain you're never going to work for a candidate you agree with 100%. So there. So if you do believe that, that the nation and people that you know live here are going to be better served by them winning and, and on balance, it's a good thing and you're not going out there lying, you're not defending something that goes against your, your kind of moral principles or whatever, then I, I think that you can do those jobs morally, yes, but I think that increasingly that's hard now. And, and I think that for me, like a lot of my lost friendships, I'm glad we. It's not us, Emily, but a lot of my lost friendships are people that are still in those jobs because at some level they kind of know that I'm judging them morally. And I know and you know, and even if I try to keep the friendship, they know and I know that they know one of those things where it creates awkwardness, you know, when there becomes a moral valence there. Because I didn't really feel that way that much like in the Romney Obama race. Maybe I should have for various reasons, but I didn't like, feel like there was a big moral valence in that choice. I think that there is now in a lot of cases, and particularly for me, and I think that some people on the left feel this way about Gaza. And I had Jake Sullivan on the pod today and I was really trying to be conscious of the fact that I have listeners who are Zionists who care about the hostages, who have moral issues with him based on that side. And obviously there are a lot of people who are on the other side feel like that he and the administration is complicit in the humanitarian disaster in Gaza. And so there are a lot of people who feel that might be an issue for them. That is one where they can't work for somebody within their integrity. For me, it's more acute right now in immigration. I think that a lot of the immigration stuff and the way that people are being treated is just too far beyond the pale for me. I think maybe some people on the right might feel that way about abortion. So I think at some level, if you have, you Know, if you're not a total nihilist about everything, if you believe that things matter. Right. Then you might at some point come into conflict with something your candidate says or does. And I just encourage people at that point, like, to use myself as an example, be like, life goes on. You can leave. Like, it's okay to leave if you don't feel comfortable. If you don't have to leave in a huff, you don't have to tell the New York Times or, or Megyn Kelly network or whatever that you're leaving. But like, or you can if you want to.
- [19:42]
Emily J
You should.
- [19:43]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah, you should. Maybe depending on the situation. But that's kind of how I view it. I think a lot of, in a lot of places it's gray and in some places it's not that gray.
- [19:52]
Emily J
Yeah, that's interesting too, actually. The conversation you had with Jake Sullivan, from what I've seen of it so far, was like fascinating and well done. And one of the reasons maybe you and I coming from more traditional. Right. Backgrounds, for me at least, this is a great example of how if you get out of like the right wing media bubble, which sounds very cliched, but I feel like maybe the most important thing that happens when you challenge yourself by talking to people and talking to audiences that aren't particularly in that bubble is you learn things that you didn't know, you didn't know. And that has been a wild experience because you have to find people to talk to who are the best faith representation of an argument you disagree with or that you don't actually even, you're not even aware of, you've dismissed. And I don't know, I actually think that's what's fascinating about what's happening in independent media and podcasts that happened for.
- [20:47]
Tim Miller
You and anything in particular, I think.
- [20:49]
Emily J
That happened for me in Israel, in Gaza.
- [20:52]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's just been a tough one for me. I don't know, because the passions are so high about it for good reason, honestly. And I, you know, in classic centristy squishy Tim way, I don't know, I think it's tough. I think it's less tough right now. I mean, I think that Israel's behavior right now is pretty hard to defend just given the fact that they don't really seem to have a plan or a strategy. And I think the threats to them are much smaller. I think what Jake was trying to point out today, which I'll just defend him on, as he says, the attacks from the left that he's receiving about supporting Israel in late 2023 and early 2024, it's like, well, Israel just had this horrific terrorist attack against them. Meanwhile, on their other border, they have Hezbollah shooting rockets at them. You have Iran paying for proxies, you know, against them, and they just have all these acute threats all over the place. And, you know, like, it's. And then all these hostages that are lost. And they were in a really challenging situation. Right. And like you. And I think Iran kind of too, and just horrifically with regards to Gaza. But, you know, like, if you're in there, you know, so I think that's why right now it feels just so much more acute. But I felt like at the time it was. I don't know, I felt compelled by the arguments by both sides a lot of times. And I think that the one thing, my one North Star in the whole thing was, my one skepticism of Israel for the start was I just don't. I don't think they have a plan. I really never heard a good plan executed. And I was getting some Iraq flashbacks, and it's not Iraq in a lot of different ways, but, like, what was the plan out of it? And I think that skepticism, which was better articulated from people way left of me at the beginning, has turned out to be right.
- [22:51]
Emily J
Yeah. And tragically, there are hostage families that would agree with that sentiment because some of the hostages were killed in the incursion. So we don't necessarily have to open up that full can of fire.
- [23:01]
Tim Miller
We're way down Israel, the Israel path now.
- [23:03]
Emily J
Right.
- [23:04]
Tim Miller
But I figured we're at the hotel.
- [23:06]
Emily J
Lobby, but this is a conversation, I just think that wasn't happening in media 10 years ago. And the fact that you. This is about to get meta. Were talking to Jake Sullivan, and then I was talking to you about how you talked to Jake Sullivan. Like, these are just different threads being pulled out that weren't, you know, really being pulled out outside of maybe like, tune in and the bar scene in D.C. before.
- [23:27]
Tim Miller
Or the blogosphere, maybe there's some of that was happening a little bit.
- [23:31]
Emily J
Yeah, that's a good point. Well, Tim, I want to get to you actually on this Politico memo, this Doug Sauce memo. Before we do, though, quick break for an ad. And while Tim drinks his. His beer or water or whatever it is. Oh, it's a Coca Cola classic. Hashtag Maha. Now, over the years, I have been clear that I'm not just pro birth, I'm pro life. And being pro life means standing with mothers, not only before their baby is born but long after. And that is why I partner with preborn and partner very proudly with preborn. Preborn doesn't just save babies, they make motherhood abundantly possible, which is so important. They provide free ultrasounds and share the truth of the gospel with women in crisis. And then they stay with real practical help including financial support for up to two years after the baby is born. They this is what true Christ centered compassion looks like. Not just for the baby, but for the mother too. And here's where you can make a difference. Just $28 provides a free life saving ultrasound. One chance for a mother to see her baby. When she does, she is twice as likely to choose life. Preborn is trying to save 70,000 babies this year. So don't just say your pro life, live it. Help save babies and support mothers today. Go to preborn.com emily or call 855-601-2229. That's preborn.com emily need to restock inventory, cover seasonal dips, or manage payroll OnDeck's small business line of credit provides immediate access to funds up to $100,000 exactly when your business needs it. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and full control over repayment, you can tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. Apply today@ondeck.com and funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amount subject to lender approval. Happy to say. We are joined once again by Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark Podcast. And Tim, I have to get your take on this Doug Sostic memo that was bouncing around Washington today broke in Politico playbook and man, some of this data is really rough for Democrats. And I think you have a very interesting perspective on this as somebody who spends a little bit more time with folks in the center and on the left now, but also having seen what happened on the right. So let's go ahead and put up the graphic about split ticket congressional districts. This is really interesting. Split ticket congressional districts according to this memo. And Doug Sosnik we should mention is a a Clinton operative. Big deal pollster. These memos always make their way everywhere in Washington. So split district, split ticket congressional districts have nearly disappeared. If you're listening to the podcast and not looking at this graphic. I mean this decline is just utterly shocking of districts where voting for a presidential nominee from one party and a House candidate from the other has declined. I mean way more than half the 50s, but also just in more recent decades as well. We can go along and move to this next graphic about how education level determined voting in the 2024 presidential election. And Tim, I'm really eager to get your take on this one because this is something people didn't understand fully was happening beneath the surface of the 2012 election, which you worked on. And then you saw this happen in 2016 with Donald Trump. But Republicans won 14 of the 15 least college educated states and Democrats carried 14 of the 15 most college educated. And Tim, let's just pause here because I bet a lot of those folks who maybe voted Romney, Clinton, Biden, Harris are listeners to your podcast. What do you make of all of this?
- [27:06]
Tim Miller
I know it makes it feel like it wasn't my choice. It was predetermined because it's like my suburban Denver congressional district is totally representative. It was like a Tom Tancredo district back then, like a right MAGA guy. And now it's, you know, representative. It's a blow. Not even a swing district, it's a blowout Dem district. So, yeah, they are. And I think that the 2012 observation is interesting because I remember after that election, Stuart Stevens, who's a fellow never Trump, former Republican, who was Romney's strategist, was talking about how for Republicans to win they needed to do better in the suburbs with college educated women, like in particular, and also with, you know, non college Hispanic voters, but also college Hispanic voters. And you know, his point was he goes that Romney, I think I'm getting this right. I think Romney got the same amount of non college white vote in 2012 that Reagan did in his landslide in 84. Right. And his point was like we lost and Reagan won in a landslide. So there's just not enough non, there's not enough non college whites out there left. And I hate to bring this up because for Stu, did you say, little did you know, he's been right about a lot of things. But you know, what you didn't consider was, well, what if non college white people start voting like black people too for Democrats, right? And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, you know, you're in blowout territory for Republicans. So. And that's obviously what then proceeded to happen. So I mean, this is like the central issue for Democrats right now. I mean, like, you know, more about how somebody votes based on college attainment than on almost anything else demographically. And, and you know, I, I don't, I think that there are some ideas that they have on how to unwind it. But I haven't, I haven't heard any particularly compelling ones.
- [28:58]
Emily J
So let's take a look at this is going to be F3. Democratic Party favorability is at its lowest point in three decades, according to the state of that Sosnik has collated here. And if we move next one, this is where I think this gets really, really interesting because that first one was with the whole that's with everybody left and right. Democrats. Now, their voters have a low opinion of their own party. But if you look at this chart and I'll explain it again for people who are joining us on the podcast version, Democrats are almost at Tea Party levels. So the low point for Republicans in the last 20 or so years is in 2009 of dissatisfaction with or the favorability with their own party. So Republicans had the low point of favorability for their own party in 2009, which makes sense. That's when the Tea Party kicks off. Democrats are approaching that level of low favorability rating of their own party. Tim. And that is very new for Democrats. You've talked to Zoramdani. You've talked to politicians who are hesitant about voting or endorsing Zoramdani. Probably voting for him, too. We'll get to the Hakeem Jeffries interview more in a second. But have they realized exactly what they're in for? Because you lived through the Tea Party years in Washington, D.C. and you talk to a lot of Democrats now. My take on this is they have no idea what a whirlwind they're about to reap.
- [30:22]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I mean, they're aware that it's bad. I guess I'd say this. So awareness is the first step towards recovery. The problem. Are they. But like the level of awareness is not. It's not high enough. I guess I would put it like that. So at least they're having some conversations about it. In some ways, I think that there are some parallels to the Tea Party element about just how the voters are just rabid and desperate for somebody that's a fighter and represents them and they feel unrepresented kind of by the last few nominees didn't like Kamala Biden or Hillary. But in some ways that lineup is not so dissimilar from like McCain and Romney to the Republicans. Right. Just in the sense that like, okay, we were fine to vote for them, but this was. You weren't. We didn't get what we wanted, really. Right. And we didn't get things that like something that we were really passionate about. And so I think that is there for sure. I think the Democrats needing to be more responsive to their bases views on certain issues, like one we were just talking about is definitely part of it. But one potential difference though is the Democrats coalition is more diverse. And I don't really necessarily even mean that just like by skin color, but I just mean like old black voters, young black voters are kind of different. They're college. They got these new suburban, you know, former Republican types we're talking about that like make up a decent amount of the primary electorate. You got old liberals. It's kind of diffuse. Right. And the groups are kind of unhappy with the party for different reasons. Right. Like the lefties are unhappy that the neoliberals have been in charge and the neoliberals are unhappy that the neoliberals have been too big of one.
- [32:05]
Emily J
I can't believe you just used the word neoliberal. Yeah, sorry, we have to bleep it.
- [32:10]
Tim Miller
Out, give people shorthand, you know. So anyway, they're all kind of mad for different reasons where like the Republican base is pretty homogenous and they were like all mad for the same reasons basically, you know, which we could get into. And so I was, I think a lot easier for like Tea Party insurgents to, to, to galvanize a majority and overthrow candidates. I'm like a little bit skeptical that we'll see the same exact thing like on the left, that there'll be like a whole group of ZO runs like overthrowing Democrats all over the country. I don't, I don't, I. That could happen in a few places. Like, I'm not saying there's a zero, you know, but they haven't had their, I guess wake me up if they had their Eric Cantor moment for the, for the og. You'll remember that.
- [32:53]
Emily J
Wasn't that AOC though?
- [32:55]
Tim Miller
Was that aoc? I don't really think so. Joe Crowley didn't cut it. Eric Cantor would be like if Hakeem got over the. And Eric Cantor was the minority whip and he was the number two person in the House and he got overthrown by like a no name teacher, Dave Brad, who is a kind of kook, frankly. And so, you know, if that happens, okay. But I think that there's. The Democratic coalition is different in some ways meaningfully from the Republican coalition. It makes it a little bit harder for like an insurgent left to overthrow the party.
- [33:24]
Emily J
I should have warned you about this. And we, we will not countenance Dave Brat slander on this show. That is our number one Rule.
- [33:31]
Tim Miller
I said, kind of a kook. And you know, you could read that as a compliment. We all are, depending on how you look at it.
- [33:37]
Emily J
That's, that's well said. On that point. I talked to one of the Texas Democrats who fled to prevent the, or in an attempt to prevent the redistricting in that state. And one of the things she told me is that she gets along well, even though she's totally philosophically different with whatever the Texas State Freedom Caucus is. I think it's actually called the Freedom Caucus, but because they agree on this one question, which is that the system is fundamentally broken, that our institutions are broken. And when I asked her if this felt like a Tea Party movement, she was enthusiastic and she said absolutely yes, and went on to explain it's because there's this shared perspective on the institution itself being broken. But now that I think of what you just said, I'm also looking at the graphic we had up on the screen from the Sosnik memo about education level. And when I think about that, it makes me wonder if, you know, you see low institutional trust. My instinct, and I think this is true in the data, but I'd have to go double check. Is lowest among the working class. And that is, I mean, when you combine that with education level for Dem voters right now, switching, becoming the party of the more affluent, it does make me think that might be a completely different state in terms of like whether you have a rabble rousing movement that is able to capture a lot of energy and momentum, overthrowing Dems. If you now have the Bulwark Podcast listeners in your coalition, just like picture in your head.
- [35:08]
Tim Miller
The. All right, the Bulwark Podcast listeners are not exactly everything is broken type people. Maybe some, some, you know, we have different types of folks listen for different reasons, but like the core audience audience, like just imagine your head, the stereotypical no Kings protester, you know, who's watching MSNBC or whatever. And then imagine your head like the stereotypical like lefty populist person, like showing up for whatever a burn the event. Like, is that like they're both mad at the Democratic Party, right. But are they going to join together to support who are they going to join together to support to overthrow the existing establishment. Right. Like, I just, it's a little bit more common, complicated. And I think they, and I think that, you know, part of that is for that reason you're saying, like there's a big part of the coalition that's high trust, high education and they're not really looking to burn everything down. Like, they're just. They're looking to burn down the Trump administration. Like, they're not looking to burn down every institution. Right.
- [36:08]
Emily J
George Conway, outside John Bolton's house. Like, with this phone, live streaming. It's like an Andrew Breitbart. The Andrew Breitbart of the center. Of the Never Trip Center. So. So actually, let's get to your interview with Hakeem Jeffries. So this is going to be S2, because in the context of what we were just discussing, wonder actually if this makes Hakeem Jeffries, who is, of course, our favorite politician on this show for his Instagram page. We love it.
- [36:34]
Tim Miller
Why is he your favorite? His Instagram? I don't.
- [36:36]
Emily J
Oh, his Instagrams are incredible. He Photoshops them in the clumsiest I've.
- [36:42]
Tim Miller
Seen a couple Photoshops. Instagram, I guess I haven't really been a devotee of his page, though, so I'll make an effort to look.
- [36:50]
Emily J
Yeah, educate yourself, do the work, Tim. It's worth it. But let's take a look here at S2. This is Tim's interview with Hakeem Jeffries.
- [36:58]
Tim Miller
I was a Republican up till two minutes ago, and I'm a capitalist, and I'd Zoran on. And I went at him on a variety of issues we disagree on, but it's not really a close call, is it? I mean, you have a corrupt mayor that is doing deals with Donald Trump. You had a guy that had to resign in disgrace, that already lost a Democratic primary. Like, it's not a close call. Right. Why not just. Why not just endorse him and then work with him? Well, I think what I can say is that he's the only one I'm scheduled to talk to.
- [37:26]
Emily J
Okay.
- [37:29]
Tim Miller
Why not just. Let's just get it over with, though. You're prolonging the pain leader. Why not just endorse Zoran? It's not that hard. Right.
- [37:36]
Emily J
Listen, listen, I understand, but, you know.
- [37:39]
Tim Miller
It'S not like things aren't happening.
- [37:40]
Emily J
I was just in Chicago.
- [37:42]
Tim Miller
I was in Texas. I was in California. We're in the middle of an unprecedented redistricting war, literally. I know. Just do it. Get it out of the way.
- [37:52]
Emily J
So is your read on that, actually that Hakeem Jeffries is. I mean, a lot of people would look at it and say immediately that he's. He's critical of it. A lot of my friends on the left, progressive left, would say he's. He is critical of Zoramdani or is hesitant in the case of Zoram Hamdani because of Israel and his sort of corporate benefactors who are horrified by the prospect of socialism. Is your read on it. And I'm interested in this, given our conversation earlier, that he actually senses Mamdani is a bad representation like Andrew Cuomo or maybe even Eric Adams are just a sort of better representation of where the Democratic Party is.
- [38:30]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I think part of this is caution and just kind of bad political instincts, to be honest. And I think that some of this is like local New York stuff, you know, and, and him knowing Adams and Cuomo and like not knowing Zoran's arm comes out of nowhere and there's like ego. I think that's part of it. But, but I, I don't know. I, I. Since the interview, we'll just, you guys can play with this and take it and run with it if you want. I've had some Dems who tell me that privately that like that he, what his real concern in is, is what we're just talking about. This real concern is that Zoran will not just problems for him in New York as mayor doing socialist stuff or whatever he might do that might hurt the party's brand, but that he will be like a lightning rod for other Zoran types that will primary his members, look out for. And that that is, and that that is his concern. I don't, I don't actually know that. So I don't want to speak out. I think that'd be a legitimate thing for him to be worried about, I guess. I don't think it like really explains the strategy. You're dealing with it. But that's, I've heard some scuttlebutt that's what his real concern is. I think it's more that, I don't know, I get bribe bristle a little bit at the lefty. Like, oh, it's a pack stuff. It's just like Hakeem Jeffries, the leader of the party, gets a lot of money for a lot of places. You know, I just think, I think it betrays like a, not a lack of understanding about how Washington really works, that it's like, you know, a handful of APAC donors he's worried aren't going to support the dccc. Like the D Triple C is raising money hand over fist, you know. So to me, I think it's more interpersonal, concerned about members, concerned about lefty primaries, maybe some New York stars stuff.
- [40:07]
Emily J
Yeah, the APAC conversation actually reminds me a lot of the NRA conversation because the APAC conversation becomes a proxy for the larger question of donations from people who are specifically giving to talk to members and have access to talk about the Israel question. Just like similar from the NRA or to the nra. And you actually know the inner workings of this better than I do, Tim, because you were kind of on the other side of it. But do I think it's a. That special interests and money and politics is a big deal? Of course. Absolutely. I actually think APAC probably should register under Farah. But, you know, and I think AIPAC has acted awful in some particular races. But there are. I mean, they aren't giving the most money in politics. It doesn't sort of explain. It's not like certain people are completely bought known by aipac. They're bought known by like everybody.
- [40:56]
Tim Miller
Yeah, Especially somebody like Hakeem. Though I did have to laugh at. I see somebody. The Charlemagne, the God thing where he called them Apoc Shakur.
- [41:02]
Emily J
Apac Shakur.
- [41:03]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Shout out Tash Haaland. That's funny. Funny is funny. But, yeah, I just, I don't know. There's a hint, and I'm saying this on Charlemagne per se, but like, there's a hint of anti Semitism and some of the stuff I get a little sensitive about because it's just like, I don't, you know, it's one thing if there's a person that comes in, does a big super PAC for you and like they're, they're, you know, you saw this with crypto this for Trump. Jeff Yass did this for some people. TikTok Ban. If you have a single donor who has a single issue where they're going to spend 10 million on the race. And you did see this actually in a couple primaries where AIPAC did the, you know, I think that's Cori Bush, you know.
- [41:37]
Emily J
Yep.
- [41:37]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I think that's a more legitimate issue to raise. I guess my point is just with Hakeem is the leader of the Democratic House Democrats, like, they're, you know, they have money from so many different interests. I just think it's betrays a lack of understanding of like what. Where the finances are coming from the House Democrats. To think that that's a sole reason that he's doing this, that there's some puppet master thing happening. I don't think that's right.
- [42:02]
Emily J
Well, I want to get more of your thoughts on Zora Momdani and if we could, rol of the Mamdani sc scavenger hunt. This is a vo so it'll play on the Screen as we talk. But the. The Xeron campaign hosted a scavenger hunt through New York City over the weekend, and it sounded kind of hokey when he posted about it. And then hundreds of people showed up and trekked through New York City in August on a Zoran Mamdani scavenger hunt, which. Tim, what the hell?
- [42:36]
Tim Miller
Millennial pride. Millennial cringe pride.
- [42:38]
Emily J
That's what it is. These are like Disney adults. These are New York City's Disney adults. What is it? What do you make of this?
- [42:43]
Tim Miller
I'm just saying my people are finally having the moment. Disney adults have been in charge for so long. No, I'm not a Disney adult. I dislike Disney, actually. Not in the Ron DeSantis way, just in the. It's just. But, you know, this was kind of the, you know, whatever. He's going to be in a kickball league now next. It's kind of like an urban millennial sort of thing. You know, we're doing savager hunts, we're doing kickball leagues, we're doing brunch. I think it's just. I think it's that we're such bad people. I know. It wasn't great for me. It didn't. I. I would not have been out there on the scavenger hunt. You know, I feel like there's some more pressing issues facing than we should. Well, I'm a little bit more worried about the masked cops in the streets, you know?
- [43:27]
Emily J
Oh, I thought you were gonna say the masked Zoran scavenger.
- [43:31]
Tim Miller
Yeah, just if I was gonna critique one of them as ex. Scavenger hunt seems like a low level annoyance for me.
- [43:37]
Emily J
Well, so the jumping off point to that is you've talked to Zoram Dani, and I don't mean that in a way to deride Mamdani voters. I think probably the average Mamdani voter isn't going to a scavenger hunt because they're probably working two or three jobs, to be honest. And so I actually have no, like, I have no ill will towards the average Mamdani voter. There was some man on the street interviews done after he won of people saying, no, I'm not a socialist, but he's running against Andrew Cuomo. Like, give me a break. But having talked to him and from your vantage point as a millennial, Tim, what do you make of why people are ultra Zoran fans?
- [44:16]
Tim Miller
Stuff. Like some of his videos, the video about the halal trucks, it's like so good and kind of capitalist. And Yimby really, like, you know, he has that little. Right. It's like, these guys should be able to sell their Halal. It should be cheaper. Like, people should be able to afford it. So I thought, you know, some of his material is good. He's dynamic. He's. He's personal. I. I'm sure. I don't know if you feel this way, Emily, but I have kind of a green room. I understand sometimes people are in a bad mood that day or are busy, but I have a little bit of a green room test with politicians. You can be normal with me for two minutes before or after we talk. That's a good sign for me just like not being. Not talk talking points. Just like talk like a dude or a, you know, gal. And. And he had that, like. He was chill. He's very easy to talk to. I think he was interested in trying to win over bulwark types, you know, and I could. Thought about that and come to the pod and.
- [45:05]
Emily J
Oh, that's really interesting, actually.
- [45:07]
Tim Miller
It seems like he was. And he had thoughts about, like, abundance stuff and he had thoughts about cutting red tape in various places in New York that he wanted to mention. And, you know, so I don't. I don't think that he wasn't changing his views on anything to appeal, but I. You could tell there were a couple of things that he thought like, would be good bridges or whatever. And I don't know. It was my interview that he did that he wouldn't answer the globalized. The intifada thing. So that ended up kind of overtaking the rest of the interview and becoming the only thing anyone talked about about the interview, which I do think was a bad answer still in retrospect, but I was kind of more interested in the other stuff. Like, he definitely. He was not being like, I'm a strident dsa. You know, he's like, I have my views, but I also want to work with people, want to make the city actually work. And I care about that. You know, there's like a little bit of a practicality about him that I think gets lost in the parody of the. Of the socialist grocery stores and stuff.
- [46:06]
Emily J
Right. Because he posted in 2020. I went through his. His Twitter feed and like 2020 horrible posts.
- [46:11]
Tim Miller
And I asked about, like, two of them. But I, I mean, I could. We could have done the whole podcast on his old posts.
- [46:17]
Emily J
Queer Liberation means defunding the police. That's my favorite. I delighted that one.
- [46:21]
Tim Miller
I asked about that one. I prob. Incredible. So much time. And his. His as somebody who's a poster who has some. Some clunkers out there that's sympathetic, but he has some really bad ones. Like, he was really kind of caught up in the awokening and he is not. He was. He's not doing that at all, actually, which is really noteworthy. And so I don't know. I think the excitement for him is a combo of Gaza, his. His. His charisma, fresh face and. And I think that's like, really the main. It and like a lot of the other. I don't think. And I think that there are also some DSA people are very excited to have a DSA person, you know, who's successful for sure. But I. I don't know. And we'll see, I guess, as the primary season goes on, but I don't know that it was a sign that, like, there's this clamoring for socialism among the Democratic left. I think it was more about. About charisma, focus on certain issues. Good. You know, great campaign he ran.
- [47:20]
Emily J
Who would we be surprised, to the extent you can say this, that has passed or failed your green room test?
- [47:27]
Tim Miller
Oh, man, I wish I wouldn't have thought about this. I wish I would have thought about this off the spot. Who, like, oh, man, can I do this? It feels kind of mean to do it. To do a failed green room test with somebody as someone that's coming straight to mind. Do I have to do it?
- [47:46]
Emily J
It's up to you, Tim. I can't make you do anything. Your body, your choice.
- [47:49]
Tim Miller
Can't make me do anything. There was a sitter who had a bad moment on another independent media podcast recently that, well. And that green room situation wasn't great. Again, it could have been a busy day. Who passes? That's a good question. I like, I like that. I like that, dude. Pat, there are a lot of kind of like, damn house people who are like, pretty normie who don't get a lot of attention, you know, Like, I think, like, Pat Ryan was cool. Marie goes in Camp Perez. I love.
- [48:20]
Emily J
Oh, yes.
- [48:21]
Tim Miller
He was chill. I guess that's actually. She passed the green room test with the most fine colors because she is, like, fucking doing the podcast, dude, outside, like, her house where she, like, took a brick from cutting down a tree or something and her kids running around and, like, she's just BSing. Very chill.
- [48:39]
Emily J
So chill.
- [48:40]
Tim Miller
Very chill.
- [48:41]
Emily J
She is the abundance queen that we didn't know we needed for sure.
- [48:46]
Tim Miller
For sure. I thought, yeah, I was vibing out with her with her big time. So I don't know. I'd have to. I'd have to. I wish I had the list in front of me. We could go down. And rank. And rank.
- [48:55]
Emily J
I have a surprising one, actually, Mike Pence, who you would think of as a cookie cutter politician. I don't know if you've had a.
- [49:03]
Tim Miller
Lot of like I've had a little, not a ton. But he was good in the green room.
- [49:08]
Emily J
Yeah, he's actually. And you know what people forget he's a radio host. So he's actually not bad off the cuff. He's a better politician, I think, that people give him credit for.
- [49:17]
Tim Miller
Jeb would have been a good green room person. He was great. My thing with reporters always loved him when I would say, hey, after the event, come back to the hotel, we'll have a scotch with Jeb. Those people always loved him.
- [49:28]
Emily J
Scotch with Jeb?
- [49:29]
Tim Miller
Yeah, scotch with Jeb. He's great. He's hilarious. He's self deprecating, you know, he's chill. He's like cussing and real and whatever, easy to talk to. But it's like, you know, just in translate really in front of a camera, unfortunately.
- [49:41]
Emily J
Okay, so let me. That's actually the best point to bring this all home. That's going to be my last question for you, Tim, because this is, I mean, what you were just saying about Zora Mamdani to me reflects somebody who is clever enough to understand the new media environment in that he had as a real human being, like authentically thought through what he should be talking about on the Bulwark podcast and how he should be having these conversations. I talked to him in November about winning over Trump voters in New York City and he had thought about that as well even back then before he had his surprise win. And that is just a cleverness I feel like the Democratic benches is lacking because they've relied so long on the mainstream media channels, like the major media channels being, you know, relatively sympathetic to them in most cases and didn't build up their own networks. But the fact that Mamdani is able to do that and you have this experience with Jeb's charisma not translating in 2016, which was not that long ago, but an incredibly different media environment. What do you make of what's happening with politicians as they try to meet this low institutional trust moment?
- [50:49]
Tim Miller
I think it's a huge challenge. I think think it's, it's maybe the Democrats, it's fine. Not their biggest challenge, but it is certainly their biggest like tactical issue strategic challenge is that that like to do well in Democratic Politics. They were. How do I put this? Like. Like there were certain rungs you had to. You had to go up the ladder. And they were all things about, like, being a striver, being a front of the class, kid. Right. Just look at the Democratic Congress. Like, there's just a lot of people who, who were rule followers and, you know, good at talking points and good at a message and, you know, a lot of, A lot of valedictorians. I joke a lot when I speak of this Democratic, like at conferences, democracy conferences or whatever. They're like, what's your advice? I'm like, stop finding people that, like, were from a town, you know, was a valedictorian, went to a liberal arts school, went to McKinsey, and then came back home. Home. Like that is. We didn't need no more of those people. Like, they're great people. I don't have anything against any of them. I enjoy their company for the most part. I don't think that they want our country to be autocracy, so that's good. But, you know, there's not a lot of people who are just so comfortable in their own skin, comfortable being off book off talking points, you know, comfortable, like, you know, you know, just as comfortable sparring with people as they are BSing with friendly people. It's not that easy, actually, and it's a real trait and it's a skill. And I think to break through in this environment, maybe you don't have to have it, but it would go a long way. You could get better. I think JD's gotten really better. I never want to hand it to jd.
- [52:31]
Emily J
Flaming hot take from Jim Miller.
- [52:34]
Tim Miller
I know, I know jd, I find about the most unappealing person in all of public life. He's my Hakeem. But he's gotten a lot better. Like, he was better. Like, he's funny. I. You know, he was pretty funny on Theon. Maybe not funny is not the wrong.
- [52:47]
Emily J
Word, but he was good. Like, he, he was good. He sat for a couple of hours and had a normal conversation.
- [52:53]
Tim Miller
Was. Was good for jd. So it can be taught, obviously. So maybe some of them will teach themselves or maybe they need brash people, but I, I think it's a big issue.
- [53:05]
Emily J
Tim, this has been so much fun. Thank you for coming on the show and talking about all of this and sharing some of your insights over the last. I don't want to call you old, because here we are, two successful alumni.
- [53:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah, gw, raise high. Can we do a quick rant about this for any Conservatives that are anti woke listeners who have made it this far who are judging me, you know, for going anti Trump, could we hate on this? Because it's the stupidest fucking, like, name change of all, like, like, of all the dumb woke shit that happened, it might be the stupidest. GW changed their name from the Colonials because it had the word colonial in it.
- [53:50]
Emily J
We're talking about George Washington University.
- [53:52]
Tim Miller
Thank you. By the way, George Washington University changed our school mascot from the Colonials to the Revolution here.
- [53:58]
Emily J
Let's go, Revs.
- [53:59]
Tim Miller
They're the same people. They're the same people. Like, it's just. You didn't like the name Colonials because it had the name Colonial in it, but the Colonials and the revolutionaries, they still have the hat. It's the same. Like, there was no reason to change it. Like, if you. If you were like, okay, we're going to change it to something fun and whimsical.
- [54:18]
Emily J
We're going to be the Hippo, right?
- [54:20]
Tim Miller
Whatever. You know, we're doing something else that represented gw, you know, the Hippos or whatever. Like, okay, fine, but this is embarrassing. This is Portlandia. We're changing the name from the Colonials to the Revolutionaries. If the Colonials were offensive, why aren't the revolutionaries? It's stupid.
- [54:40]
Emily J
Same person? Yep. Exact same person. And I look forward to my next trip to Revolutionary Williamsburg because I'm sure that'll make a huge difference. Tim, seriously, this has been a blast. Tim is of course the host of the Bulwark podcast, and I really recommend his book if you're looking for insight into dc, so check that out too. Thanks, Tim.
- [54:59]
Tim Miller
We'll see you soon.
- [55:00]
Emily J
Sounds good. All right, now let's talk about masa chips. Masa chips. You guys know that I love them all. Chips and fries, as you may have heard, used to be cooked in tallow up until the 1990s when big corporations switched to cheap, processed seed oils. Today's seed oils make up 20% of the average American's daily calories. And recent studies have linked seed oils to metabolic health issues and inflammation. Masa did something about it. They created a delicious tortilla chip with just three ingredients. No seed oils, organic corn, sea salt, and 100% grass fed beef tallow. These chips avoid all the bad stuff and they taste incredible. Masa is crunchier, tastier, and doesn't break in your guac. Stacking on masa chips is nothing like eating regular chips. With Masa, you feel satisfied and light with no crash or bloat. Afterwards. Just seriously, these chips are so delicious. The beef tallow makes them satiating so you won't find yourself uncontrollably binging. Still feeling hungry afterwards? Masa Chips is beloved by tens of thousands of customers, including me, and has been endorsed by industry leading health and nutrition experts. Ready to give Masa a try? Go to masachips.comafterparty and use code AFTERPARTY for 25% off your first order. That's masachips.comafterparty, and code AFTERPARTY for 25% OFF your first order. Seriously, I buy these chips myself. I got some free samples and now I buy them myself because I love them so much.
- [56:22]
Tim Miller
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- [56:53]
Emily J
Did you think you were going to get away with watching the show and not hearing my reaction to the Taylor Swift engagement? I know you didn't think that because it's simply too unrealistic for anybody to even fathom. Taylor Swift, you already are aware, got engaged to Travis Kelsey. The announcement was made yesterday. The engagement probably came sometime in the last two weeks, I think is what we're hearing from reports. And let me tell you, as somebody who is right in the Taylor Swift target demographic, I was was right in that teenage era, to borrow a tailor word, when she started going crazy on the country scene back in the late aughts when that happened, everybody was swept up in Taylor Swift fervor. It was like the country Justin Bieber alternative. And then Taylor obviously broadened out. But my Instagram yesterday when I was going through people's stories, it was like one girl my age after another. They're they're in their 30s, they have kids now posting, reposting the Taylor Swift engagement post like she was one of their friends who they were congratulating. I mean I'm telling you I was. Yeah, the caption was your English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married. Whatever. But they were. I'm scrolling through these Instagram stories and I'm telling you non stop. People reposting it. It was incredible how many people just reposted it and we're like, yay. And the Taylor Swift reaction videos, engagement reaction videos that are taking the Internet by storm. I don't even want to get into those because, I mean, why? It makes me. I love celebrity news. I mean, we spent last episode just talking with the great Maureen Callahan, which many of you wrote in and said you enjoyed about stuff that feels gossipy but is sort of deep and interesting and what it reflects about our tastes and our shifts culturally. And I think Taylor Swift actually is one of those people. There are a lot of, like, diehard Taylor Swift fans, and this is what some of the engagement viral videos showed. Engagement reaction viral videos showed is like the die hard Taylor Swift fans that clearly, like, need not just a hobby, but like a prescription because they're not. Well, on that note, though, there are some. I think there's some serious lessons that can be taken from this. So let me go ahead here and put up on the screen a People magazine article that I thought made a good point from a perspective that I think is maybe this is not a point that is coming from the right, but it's one of those moments. And I think this about Lena Dunham a lot, as I've talked about here, where somebody who's not political is not talking about politics, is not talking about ideology in any way whatsoever, is making a point that from my perspective, the left and actually probably some parts of the right should think long and hard about. So this is a People magazine opinion article. I'm a Millennial Swiftie headline, and I'm going to set it. Taylor and Travis's engagement felt like a milestone win for our generation. I'm giggling because the way that's written is a little cringe, but I've actually written about some of Taylor's past records as milestone losses for our generation. I think I wrote a piece at the Federalist a couple of years ago about how her arc reflects the arc of a lot of millennials who do sort of serial dating and don't settle down, but clearly desperately want to settle down. And because they haven't settled down, in some ways look to politics, materialism as their identity and where they find their meaning and their purpose. And I really believe this is true, that that Swift reflected that. And I think this author, again, as cringy as the headline is, is correct, that Swift is is again, once again mirroring the millennial generation as people hit their 30s, mid-30s, and do genuinely settle down. Now, there was a really smart Conservative Reaction in Compact magazine by Patrick Brown of the Ethics and Public Policy Center. There's not going to be a Taylor Travis baby boom. And that's because there are already older. They're not old, but they're already older. Having you could I think fairly argue, prioritize whether willingly or not careers. And they're probably not gonna be able to have that many children. We don't know that. But that's on average what we see. There's statistics Limestone at the Institute for Family Studies have those has this data on how women right now in America are saying that they end up having fewer children than they wanted. That's a really serious thing for us to think about as a culture and not an unserious point make in the wake of all of this. But the author of the People magazine piece, Emily Rella. Great name, Emily. There's so many damn millennial Emily's that I could have literally guessed that her name was Emily and I probably would have been in in great shape. I was always Emily J in class because There were like 20 other Emily's in every class that I was in. Actually a little piece of lore, I was Emily J. And everyone back home Wisconsin still calls me MJ E M J because there was so many people named Emily that was the only way we could distinguish me. So again, just a little fun fact, I share those from time to time. Why not? So this Emily R writes, I for one was shook. Shook by how emotional the news of the engagement made me. As a closet softie, I'm usually able to reel it in when big life moments like this happen. I started feeling myself, myself tearing up with joy upon looking at Taylor and Travis's engagement photos before panicking that I was some parasocial fangirl freak, which of which there are many, we should note. But then after that passed, I found myself thinking, why, of all things, is this so hitting me so hard? Is this hitting so hard for me right now? And the author goes on to write, oh, this is awful. I'm 32, that's actually my age. And I've become comfortable with the idea that maybe it won't happen for me the way it happens in movies. I've built a beautiful, chaotic life for myself, complete with relationships, situationships and absolutely debilitating crushes. No matter how they've ended, they've all taught me something that has helped me define how I want to love, be loved and experience love. But as valuable as these lessons have been, they do occasionally feel like puzzle pieces putting together a picture that will eventually be incomplete. And another part I actually skipped over this the the author writes as a millennial, our current cultural examples of love, true soulmate level real el love aren't exactly a dime a dozen. This notion of yearning and desire and all or nothing consuming passion is seemingly dwindled with a fairy tale ending, seemingly out of reach. Too many adverbs. That's the editor in me. It's not so much that millennials stop believing in love in some jaded, brooding way. I think it's more so that we've become more comfortable with the idea that it might not happen for us in the way we once dreamed of when we were younger. Now that reflects the data from Lyman Stone at the Institute for Family Studies I just referenced, and what Patrick Brown wrote in Compact Attracting Romantic Attention, Emily R. Goes on to say, or affection isn't difficult these days. Just look at the popularity of the modern day situationship or the influx of dating apps which let you mindlessly scroll through suitor after suitor on your phone and decide in a split second whether or not you want to potentially be with this person forever based on a digital first impression. And goes on to write I mean, this is. I actually really do recommend reading this piece of piece. And now we're here watching Taylor put a final puzzle piece into place. Every heartbreak, every devastation, every grand beginning and glimmer of hope, it all led to this sweet guy who loves her as she is. And it's because we experienced all those milestones right alongside her as we grew into new life phases at the same time that this moment of Taylor finding true, unadulterated, effortless love felt like something to celebrate. Personally, I think that's right. I think all of those viral videos you're seeing right now about Taylor and Travis in all of the anodyne reposts, people wishing Taylor Swift well, it feels like a lot. It's a frenzy. One of those watershed cultural moments. But why? I think this author put her finger exactly on the reason. This is exactly why. And I know we have this post from Lindy Mann that we can also throw up on the scene on the screen. I thought this was a really good take too. That gets to some of this Paul Scholars he wrote marriage used to be the entry point into adult life, one of the first steps. Today, marriage has become the culmination of adulthood, the final step after a long run of individual experiences. People are expected to first build careers, live alone, travel date for years, and only then settle into marriage. Marriage went from foundation to trophy, trophy Marriage went from foundation to trophy. It is no longer the stabilizing base that anchored young people early, but an almost luxury milestone once life is already sorted out, which is precisely why it's rarer now. That's a really good take, and I think it's a totally fair reaction to the Taylor Travis engagement story. There's the startup marriage versus the merger marriage. If you're Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey, who have vast wealth, wealth, success, and a decade plus of living alone after college or after your career started, then, yeah, you're definitely in a merger marriage. And we lose the benefits of the startup marriage. In a culture that's primarily where people are primarily ending up in the merger marriage. But I just wanted to reflect on why this touched such a cultural nerve. It's not just because people really like Taylor Swift. She's been like Ann Hathway, had her moments where people. The culture decides. The culture's like cold. It was sort of hot and cold on Taylor Swift, depending on what quote era she's in, even though her hardcore fan base is with her all the way. But overall that fluctuates. The mood on Taylor Swift fluctuates, but over the last couple of years, it's been pretty steady. She's been criticized by people on the right, including myself, for her forays into politics and ideology. I think that actually hurt her music. One of her worst songs is yous need to Calm down and just this classist anthem that should be seen as probably the anthem of that, like peak woke era, capital P, capital W. And I think that she was worse off for it. It sounds like that was when she was also really unhappy. And I don't think it's fair to say by any means that she's like or even think or care that she's about to become a conservative. I could not possibly care about Taylor Swift, Swift's personal politics, but I think everybody wants Taylor Swift to be happy. I think everybody wants Taylor Travis to be happy. And I think some of it is because people felt like they were on the ride with her. Young millennial women felt like they were on the ride with her. Actually, I think almost all of it. It's not just because people like Taylor Swift. She's a likable person. It's because people feel like they're on the ride with her. And that ride was a roller coaster, wasn't smooth. So there's something satisfying kind of emotionally to people about seeing her. Her happy. It gives them hope that, you know, even amidst all of the challenges, nobody's had a more checkered dating history than Taylor Swift, as she's like, open about it. Gives them hope that someday, out of nowhere, they'll find Travis Kelce. I don't know. It's wild. The, the best part of all of this is Travis Kelce's old tweets going viral. And if you haven't seen them, they're actually incredible. My favorite one, I mean, it's my favorite thing of the whole story. My favorite one was in 2010. He posts happy Easter to all Shout out to Jesus for taking one for the team. Ha ha. He posted like 10 different times from 2009 to 2010 about MGMT Electric Feel. They just don't get better than this. If you haven't. If you haven't seen them, you gotta go look them up. All right. Happy for Taylor, happy for Travis. I wish them nothing but the best. We'll see though. I don't know. Let's go ahead and read some audience Instagram questions. We put out a if you're not following afterparty on Instagram, you gotta follow After Party on Instagram. We post a ton of clips over there and I have some questions that were polled and I think are are some fun ones, maybe some less than fun ones. I could do this, by the way, all day. Maybe we'll start doing an episode that's like just not even live where I just answer questions. Who knows? I'm just throwing things out there because I love answering questions. I don't know why, but I feel like it's more. It's more conversational, it's more back and forth. It's not just me ranting into the camera. Let's see, let's see, let's see. Let's see about this one. Would you rather. This is from Kick Nmm. This is a very long username. Would you rather talk like Yoda or breathe like Darth Vader? I think breathe like Darth Vader. That's a good question. Maria Fernanda, New York says you are hilarious parentheses on after party, which I like the parentheses because it implies I'm not hilarious elsewhere, which is probably true. I'm a little bit more serious elsewhere. Where do you get your sense of humor from? I've maybe mentioned this on the show before, but I actually wanted to be like a stand up comedian when I was graduating high school and don't have anywhere near the chops. Be a stand up comedian. That was abundantly clear to me. Very quickly into college, I took some fun little acting improv classes. Actually I took more than some but that was just abundantly clear to me. And that said I just, just kind of grew up in. I love tv, I love media and I love comedy. I used to basically only watch comedy and nothing else because like if you can watch comedy why watch anything else? Was my perspective. So I think it's just because I watch a lot of it that it's the only way that I. It's like my lens through the world. Plan on having this is from Jack Apostolic. Plan on having any Bravo stars on the show. I mean I would love to love that the right Bravo star because some of them are just a mess and not even worth it but some of them are incredible. So I'd love it. Maybe we can work on that. There are a few people that come to mind who might be good. Carrie D. Stone asks, what's your favorite guitar to play? When I graduated from college my parents got me this lovely Martin. It is a beautiful guitar and it sounds incredible. It was my graduation gift. I do though probably for sentimental reasons and also because I don't get to play as much as I like. Find myself gravitating towards my Yamaha that I got for my eighth birthday in second grade that my dad gave me. It's black. It used to be an acoustic electric but the electric doesn't work on it anymore and it was like my starter guitar. It can't have cost that much money and I just, I mean again it's easier to play with my lack of calluses because I just don't get to do it every day. But I love guitar. Got it for my eighth birthday. I still remember it and that's the one that I actually pull off the shelf. Most love it. J Malicious who was your favorite roommate? I know the answer that you're looking for. J Malicious. It's J Malicious because that is my former roommate Jamie riding in from Boston. So Jamie from Boston, sure it was you. I don't think Christina, our other roommate is going to watch this anyway so that's fine. Here's my one. This is from Mr. Alex Kramer. What gravitated you to. To a more conservative leaning mindset that's interesting. Like a lot of parent. A lot of people my parents are we, we weren't like obsessed with politics at home but they're kind of a little both sides or center right maybe is one way to put it. And, and I heard a lot of again like both sides stuff. I think for me it was. I don't really think you, if you are a lowercase O Orthodox Christian. I don't know right now that you. It would be very hard to be a like conservative Christian or a traditionalist Christian and end up on the left. I think that's where I do think you see some conservative Christians gravitating away from libertarian economic ideas, which I think is actually a generally positive, positive trend. And I think the sort of deindustrialization of America's heartland has changed that, especially the case with me. But yeah, for me it's just faith. It's very hard for me to reconcile the more important worldview, which is faith. Everything else has to come downstream from that. And so I think it would be difficult to get from point A to point B, which would be on the left. But yeah, it's one of the things where you just. I think people operating in good faith and honestly are kind of all over the map on a lot of this stuff these days. The labels don't so obvious but like the labels don't matter quite as much anymore post Trump because like this guy just took a 10% stake in Intel. He's like nationalizing, you know, US steel. Not quite, but, but he's taking steps that would have been derided as evil socialism by the right not long ago. So in that kind of environment, it's just he's denigrating the president of Ukraine. All of those things would have just been unheard of in the Republican Party 10 years ago. And I think you're starting to see a little bit on the left too. So that's my best answer to that question. Ambrose Portis asks a really good question. How would you answer when someone asks, isn't Donald Trump acting, acting like a dictator? I actually love that question because it gets to one of the things I still don't that I think the jury is kind of out on. I think Trump does a lot of LARPing and MAGA World does a lot of LARPing like Bukele. And I really do not like it. I don't think it's like, I feel like Michael Scott do you think doing drugs is cool? You think smoking drugs is cool? Do you think. Think Bukele is cool? That's what I mean. Just it's un American in my opinion. And there are things that Donald Trump does, like not going through Congress for tariffs that we would have freaked out on the right if Obama had done it, not going through Congress to implement sweeping tariffs, taking a 10% stake in Intel. It's debatable. But yeah, when you add some of this stuff up Like, I'm curious to get more on the Lisa Cook situation. I want to know how they got her records on. I don't, I think we covered it right away when the news broke. What she did was wrong. And the media's. What she did appears to be wrong. What she appears to have done was, was wrong. And the media's brain is like obviously broken about a lot of this stuff. But that said, I am curious how they got those records because I don't want to, you know, end up. We're already beyond, you know, the IRS scandal of the Obama era, I think gave conservatives and not incorrectly, a real lust for revenge that Trump tapped into before he even came back in his second term on this revenge platform. And let's look at more breaking news here. This broker at 6pm tonight. That's why it's great to have a late night show. This is a story from the New York Times about how serious the John Bolton investigation actually is. Is, which is that the, and it makes the allegations even more serious because it looks like the Biden administration, according to this New York Times reporting, dropped an investigation into John Bolton despite serious evidence that he took that. So the U.S. according to this New York Times report, quote, gathered data from an adversarial country's intelligence service, spy service, including emails with sensitive information that Mr. Bolton, while still working in the first Trump administration, appeared to have sent two people close to him on an unclassified system, the people said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive case that remains open. And what the claim from sources in this New York Times article is that was used for his book, which we know, but it goes beyond the book investigation. Some people have said, but the sources are suggesting that why they raided Bolton's home and were able to get a warrant, they have a lawful warrant. Is the reason for that, is they're trying to corroborate the information that they found on an adversarial country's intel leaks. So if they know this adversarial country has it, they want to verify whether or not the information that that country was able to get its hands on because John Bolton took it for his book to an unclassified server, according to this report. So like all this is, say, does it look like Trump is targeting his political enemies? It does. They targeted him first. And I hate when you leave the first part of that story out of this. You can go, you can keep peeling back the layers. You can go back to Newt Gingrich and Newt Gingrich would Say, well, it was the 40 years of Democratic rule in the House of Republic Representatives that predated me. That meant I had to come in and clean up Washington. You can blame the other side. You can go back Woodrow Wilson, you can do it all the way. Go back to Abraham Lincoln, whatever, and blame the other side for starting this doom spiral. I just think it's really hard to get around the Obama administration doing what it did to the Trump campaign. That to me is the actual Rubicon is the Obama administration doing what it did to the Trump campaign. The media failing to cover it and vet that story properly, and in fact actually fueling a false narrative and then refusing to admit that they fuel a false narrative even now is remarkable. And that, to me, is why this question about is Trump a dictator? Is so interesting, because I don't know what happens after Trump. I think Trump has instincts that go beyond what I'm, as a, as a conservative who believes executive is actually so powerful because Congress has atrophied. Congress's legislative muscles have atrophied. I think it goes beyond what I'm certainly what I'm comfortable with. And there are times I'm just like, why? Why is this necessary? But with Trump, So it's the double edged sword of Trump. None of the other stuff comes without the crazy stuff. And that's why Trump voters are willing to put up with the tweets, right? Like they sell T shirts that say, like, I'd really like some mean tweets right now from the Biden era. During the Biden era, those are being sold. So I don't know if the breaking of these norms is permanent. I don't know if this is the beginning of the doom spiral or the end of it. I just don't know. And I don't know how far Trump pushes it. I think if he were a dictator, the what would have happened. This is where it's like, it's sort of, it's beyond what I'm comfortable with and what I think is right. And January 6th is a great example of that. The, the way he treated the question of the 2020 election beyond what I'm comfortable with, beyond what I think is moral, beyond what I think the proper role of the executive is. I think a dictator would have actually like, literally not left the White House. Does he do that this time around? I doubt it. But we just don't know how things are shaking out. So I, I don the label and that's kind of where I come down on it. I could, I could probably talk about that for like an hour. Maybe we could do like a, a long conversation about that at one point. Because I think it's maybe one of the most interesting, interesting bits. It's just so hard to use the label and difficult, especially in this contextless media environment where it's just like John Bolton's being targeted because he's a political enemy of Trump. It's like, well, John Bolton supported the target reading of Trump first. Or are we talking about Biden as a dictator? No. What does this label actually mean when we say it? Are we using it too loosely? Are we using it consistently? And what happens in the future? A lot of people pretend to know, but I just don't think we do. And I think it's okay to say that. A lot of people aren't comfortable saying that. I think it's okay to say that. So on that note, I could honestly just keep rambling. These were great questions. Feel free to send more questions to emily devil may caremedia.com or you can shoot us Instagram messages. We check those too. But I check everything over@emilyevilmakeremedia.com try to respond to all of you. And just a reminder or actually a little programming note, we're off on Monday. So happy Labor Day, comrades. Enjoy it. Have some. Have some beer. I'm drinking my Senate beer right here. So have a good one. And we will see you back here a week from right Now, Wednesday, live, 10:00pm thanks so much, everyone. What does possibility mean to you? That's a hard question. Something that you can strive for. I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself. Stuff that you could achieve. I feel Etsyra, anything is possible when you're more confident. Shoes are a huge part of that. They are the most important part of my style. You can express yourself in the right shoes. Anything is possible. Dsw. Countless shoes at bragworthy prices. 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