The Dark Side of Looksmaxxing, with Nick Freitas, and Dave Chappelle vs. Comedy Police, with Spencer Klavan

Summary

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Podcast Summary: After Party with Emily Jashinsky

Episode: The Dark Side of Looksmaxxing, with Nick Freitas, and Dave Chappelle vs. Comedy Police, with Spencer Klavan
Host: Emily Jashinsky
Guests: Nick Freitas, Spencer Klavan
Date: April 16, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives into major contemporary debates at the intersection of masculinity, social media trends, cultural boyhood, political violence, the evolution of comedy, religious illiteracy in popular media, the threat of AI in creative fields, and the state of American intellectual life. Emily is joined by Nick Freitas—author, commentator, retired Green Beret, and former Virginia House Delegate—to dissect the "manosphere," looksmaxxing influencer culture, and the current challenges facing young men. Later, Spencer Klavan (Claremont Review of Books; Clavin’s on the Culture) joins for sharp riffs on public intellectualism, “comedy police,” AI-revived celebrities, and the media’s latest AI scandal.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. The “Manosphere” & the Masculinity Crisis

Guest: Nick Freitas (05:05–08:34)

• Nick’s Motivation for “The Man Book”:
  Nick discusses his impetus for writing a practical guide to modern manhood. His focus: counteracting a culture that, for decades, has “trashed young men...telling them they suck, that they're the source of all the world's problems” ([05:05]).
• Societal Alienation of Young Men:
  He underscores how societal neglect and hostility toward traditional masculinity is a civilization-wide risk:
  • “There’s no such thing as a civilization...without young men having buy-in” ([06:04]).
• Purpose Beyond Power:
  Nick calls out hedonistic “success” narratives (e.g., looks, strength) and suggests anchoring identity in honor, community, and faith:
  • "If you are going to become strong and capable merely to fulfill some sort of hedonistic desires...you're going to find yourself...lonely, depressed" ([07:04]).
  • His book covers “53 things that I think men should know”—from “how to cook a steak” to “how to kick in a door” ([07:35]).

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2. Looksmaxxing, Clavicular, and Internet Freak Shows

Host & Guest: Emily & Nick Freitas (08:34–16:28)

• Clavicular’s Public Overdose:
  Discussion centers on a viral “looksmaxxing” figure, Clavicular, who overdosed on camera.
  • His content (extreme self-sculpting, drug cocktails) makes him “a circus freak on the Internet” ([10:56]).
• Analysis of Looksmax Culture:
  Nick reflects on the deeper search for identity:
  • “If what they're currently finding identity in is looksmaxxing, and...meaning and purpose in...likes and follows...it's not hard to see why they would overdose on it" ([14:32]).
  • He finds it “incredibly feminine how obsessed Andrew Tate and...these guys are with their physical appearance” ([15:29]).
• Masculinity in Service To What?:
  Nick’s central question: “In service to what?” Real meaning, he argues, comes not from self-glorification but honorable obligations.

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3. Gender Roles, Childrearing, and Modern Parenting

Host & Guest: Emily & Nick Freitas (19:52–29:26)

• Traditional Roles Still Hold Power:
  Nick tells a story about "protector" impulses—why women still prefer men who step up to danger:

  “In one version...your fiancé jumps in between you and the person with a knife, and in the other...he jumps behind you. In which scenario are you more attracted to your fiancé?” ([19:52])

• Maren Morris Clip (21:39):
  Discussion of pop star’s approach to her son's gender expression sparks debate on toughness, boundaries, and the dangers of overprotection:

  “The world will require him to toughen up, and you’re not protecting him right now...things that you do now may make him feel weak later” ([23:50]).

  • Moms should “call out the protector” in sons—not bubble-wrap them ([26:15–28:52]).

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4. Political Violence & Conservative Journalists at Risk

Host & Guest: Emily & Nick Freitas (29:26–37:13)

• Savannah Hernandez Assault:
  Conservative reporter attacked during protest coverage; three arrests made.
• Security Double-Standard:
  Nick points out, “Isn’t it amazing that [liberals] don’t seem to need the same security protocols when left-wing speakers come on campus?” ([31:54])
• Hardening Response:

  “If law enforcement is not gonna do its proper job...if they're not willing to do it, oh, it will get done...this has been part of a long play” ([33:49–36:41]).

• Law vs. Vigilantism:
  Frustration is high among the right with selective prosecution and ongoing censorship or violence against conservatives.

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5. The Low State of Internet Intellectualism

Host & Guest: Emily & Spencer Klavan (40:00–49:44)

• Public Intellectuals...or Just Public Embarrassment?

  • Sneako x Alexander Dugin x “Professor Jang” stream ridiculed for being “the axis of douchery” and reflecting “an intellectual void rather than an actually interesting conversation” ([44:26]).
  • Spencer:

    “Have you ever wanted to entertain far-out philosophical ideas, but on a platform for idiots? Boy, have I got a show for you.” ([44:13])

  • The degradation of elite discourse from Buckley-Carson intellectualism to YouTube farce is compared.

• Framing and Critique:

  • Criticisms leveled from motivated adversaries (e.g., Russian post-liberals or the far left) aren’t taken as introspective good faith but as opportunistic “deck you in the jaw” maneuvers ([46:51]).

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6. Religion, Pop Culture Ignorance, and Political Sacred/Profane

Host & Guest: Emily & Spencer Klavin (49:44–58:55)

• The View’s Gospel Illiteracy:
  The panel laughs at The View's “intellectual void” and botched attempts to discuss Jesus and the Messiah ([49:44]).
• Sacred vs. Profane in American Politics:
  The “sacred and profane” are at play in the Trump vs Pope discourse and meme-battles ([53:01]).

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7. Comedy, Free Speech, and Dave Chappelle vs. the Comedy Police

Clips & Commentary: Chappelle, Emily, Spencer (59:33–65:02)

• Chappelle on Trans Jokes:
  Chappelle complains about Republicans “weaponizing” his comedy on trans topics and not wanting his art politicized ([59:33]).
  • “I lit her [Lauren Boebert’s] ass up for doing that. She should never do that” ([60:38]).
• On “Punching Down” & Policing Comedy:
  • “If you feel you have to police comedy...you should assess your point.” ([61:46])
• Spencer’s Critique:
  • “It’s a little cowardly...the better answer would be, I’ll take a picture with anybody. People will project their own agenda onto you” ([62:21]).
  • Comedians' important role: saying “the unsayable”; policing them diminishes cultural honesty.

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8. AI, Art, and the Dangers of Losing Our Souls

AI Val Kilmer & Deepfake Debate: Emily & Spencer (65:02–78:34)

• Val Kilmer’s AI Resurrection:
  Trailer released for a film starring AI-reconstructed Val Kilmer—raises profound ethical and artistic questions.
• Mimicry vs. Humanity:
  • “Things which people do effortlessly, machines struggle to do...our intelligence and their mimicry proceed in opposite directions” ([67:19]).
  • Spencer:

    “The minute you start confusing an external imitation of your inner life for the inner life itself, you have begun to give away your own inner life.” ([68:18])

• Hope for Authenticity:
  The “Made Without AI” label may become a badge of prestige. “Human-made” art grows scarce and valuable—if we can train ourselves to recognize it ([76:43]).

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9. Media Watchdogs & the AI Attribution Crisis

Emily’s Closing Segment (80:57–88:34)

• Mediaite’s AI Scandal:
  The founding editor is suspended after major newsletter misattributions traced to flawed “AI workflow” and lack of editorial sanity checks ([80:57]).
  • “You cannot mix up...people’s quotes about serious topics...not a casual error. That’s obviously why Mediaite has suspended Colby Hall” ([87:07]).
• Wider Industry Implications:
  • If this can happen at a journalist watchdog, it signals just how unprepared the industry is for rapid AI adoption.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nick Freitas:

  • “You have alienated young men. And there’s no such thing as a civilization...without young men having buy-in.” ([06:04])
  • “True depression...comes from getting the things you always wanted and realizing it doesn’t fulfill you.” ([07:04])
  • On looksmaxxing: “If they are associating likes and follows with love and community, it’s not hard to see why someone would overdose on it.” ([14:32])

• Spencer Klavan:

  • “Have you ever wanted to entertain far-out philosophical ideas, but on a platform for idiots? Boy, have I got a show for you.” ([44:13])
  • “The minute you start confusing an external imitation of your inner life for the inner life itself, you have begun to give away your own inner life.” ([68:18])
  • “Made without AI may turn into a seal of authenticity now.” ([76:43])

• Dave Chappelle (on being politicized):

  • “She [Lauren Boebert] instantly, like, weaponized it or politicized it. So I...lit her ass up.” ([60:38])
  • "If you feel like you have to police comedy...you should assess your point." ([61:46])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Nick Freitas Intro & Man Book: 05:05–08:34
• Looksmaxxing, Clavicular Overdose: 08:34–16:28
• Manosphere & Modern Masculinity: 16:28–19:52
• Protector Impulse & Gender Roles: 19:52–29:26
• Reporter Savannah Hernandez’s Assault: 29:26–37:13
• Spencer Klavan Joins – Intellectual Void: 40:00–49:44
• The View on Jesus – Religious Illiteracy: 49:44–58:55
• Dave Chappelle on Comedy Police: 59:33–65:02
• AI, Art, & Val Kilmer Resurrection: 65:02–78:34
• Mediaite AI Attribution Scandal: 80:57–88:34

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Tone & Style

The episode blends sharp cultural critique, irreverent humor, and a probing, sometimes combative, examination of recent news through a decidedly right-leaning, anti-elitist lens. Both guests, especially Spencer Klavan, infuse references to intellectual history and classical literature, while Emily maintains a brisk, sometimes skeptical, and always engagement-driven dialogue.

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Final Thoughts

After Party delivers a panoramic and unvarnished look at the state of American masculinity, intellectual discourse, the impact of digital culture on identity, and the growing pains of AI’s intersection with journalism and art. The show’s conversational approach and call-out willingness make it a lively, sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking listen.

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Transcript

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[Emily]

Welcome to afterparty, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. We have two guests tonight. Nick Freitas and Spencer Clavin will both be joining us. And it's actually a great news cycle for both of these guests. There's a lot to talk about. First, make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel, to the podcast feed. It helps us a lot continue doing this independent journalism. So we appreciate everybody who has subscribed. We thank you for listening and are so grateful to all of you for being here. Now, like I said, big show. Dave Chappelle sat down with NPR for a very buzzy interview about comedy in 2026 about the Republican Party. He had some less than, predictably, less than kind words about the Republican Party, but actually particularly on the trans topic, so eager to get into that, a conservative reporter was assaulted in Minneapolis. Three people have been arrested in going to break it down. Clavicular Manosphere, Denison Clavicular Overdose and one of the worst streamer videos that I can think of just last night. So we're going to talk about that. Val Kilmer. Val Kilmer has been resurrected, not literally, but virtually. It's really gross. So we're going to show you the trailer and and tell you a little bit about what's going on in this new movie that features an AI Val Kilmer. The View is getting into theology. There's just so much to get to. So big show tonight. Appreciate everyone for being here. We'll be back with Nick Fredas in Just one moment. But first, over the years I've been clear about this. I'm not just pro birth, I'm pro life. And being pro life means standing with mothers not only before the baby is born, but long after. And that is exactly why I partner and partner very proudly with preborn. Preborn doesn't just save babies, they make motherhood abundantly possible. They provide free ultrasounds and share the truth, truth of the gospel with women in crisis. And then they stay with real practical help, including financial support for up to two years. Two years after the baby is born. So important. This is what true Christ centered compassion looks like. Not just for the baby, but also for the mother. So here's where you can make a difference. Just 28 provides a free life saving ultrasound. One chance for a mother to see her baby. And get this, this is a real number. When she does, she's as likely to choose life. Amazing. Preborn is trying to save 70,000 babies this year. So please do be a part of that movement. Don't just say you're pro life. Live it. Help save babies and support mothers today. Go to preborn.com emily or call 855-601-2229. That's preborn.com emily Picture this.

[Spencer Clavin]

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[Emily]

So, Nick Fraidy again. I'll introduce him. He's the author of the man book is a point by point guide to sucking it up and getting the job done. He's a retired Green Beret with two combat tours in Iraq and he spent a decade in the Virginia House of Delegates. So Nick Freitas, if you could start telling us just a little bit about where this book came from, why you wanted to do this book right now.

[Nick Freitas]

Yeah, so obviously I've done a lot of content, a lot of it A lot of it's been political, but I started noticing that to the extent when someone recognized me at the airport or whatnot, a lot of times what they would thank me for if they weren't like throwing something at me. What they thank me for is some of the things I would say about raising daughters or raising a son or being married or whatever it was. But it was a lot of that stuff around the, the family oriented content and the masculinity oriented content. And I really started to realize that a lot of young men have grown up in a time where for at least the last two decades, they've just been trashed relentlessly. Everything within education, within pop culture, within politics has all been oriented around telling them that they suck, that they're the source of all the world's problems. The future is female, they don't have any place or voice. And the best they can hope for is to sit down, shut up and just pay attention. And I really wanted to write this as a way to not only kind of acknowledge that, but also encourage him because I genuinely, I genuinely believe that we're at a crossroads right now with respect to not just our country, but you might even say, Western civilization. The whole woke thing, it loses. I'll never forget I was at Cal Berkeley and I was telling the students, I'm like, I just need you to know something like, regardless of what you think about me, regardless of what you think about politics, woke the sort of like critical theory, progressivism, it loses. And the reason why it loses is because you have alienated young men. And there's no such thing as a civilization which is built, defended anything without young men having buy in. And so young men are going to revolt against this. The problem is, is that mine isn't the only voice out there, right? Like John Lovell, Chad Robichau, these guys are not the only voice out there. There's a lot of people telling young man, you need to be strong, you need to be powerful, you need to be capable, so you can go take what you want. And what I really wanted was them to understand that, look, I've lived a little bit of life. I've been married for almost 27 years.

[Emily]

Just a little bit.

[Nick Freitas]

Yeah, I've been married for 27 years. I've been a father for 22. I've seen combat, I've seen business, I've seen politics. And the biggest thing that I've realized through all of it is that if you are going to become strong and capable merely to fulfill some sort of hedonistic hedonistic desires, you're going to find yourself. You're not going to find yourself not only just lonely, you're going to find yourself depressed. Because true depression doesn't come from thinking that you've been denied things that you're owed. It comes from getting the things you always wanted and realizing it doesn't fulfill you. And so using that experience, talking about these things, I wanted to really just encourage these young men that A, we need you, and we need you desperately, but we need you to be not just strong and capable, we need you to be honorable. We need you to recognize your obligations to God so that you can better fulfill your obligations, hopefully one day, to a wife, to children, to your community, to your country. And these are just things. 53 things that I think men should know. And again, it's the gambit, right? Everything from how to cook a steak, which by the way, anything above medium is an assault against meat itself, to how to kick in a door, to how to defend your faith, to those questions about how do you discuss dating with your daughter one day, right? How do you have important discussions and, dare I even say, arguments with your wife and come out the other side stronger than when you would begin those. And so I've had some of those experience and wrote them down.

[Emily]

Yeah. And the man book comes in the midst of the manosphere discourse, obviously. The Louis Theroux documentary was just released on Netflix. Looking at some of the guys like Sneako, I guess, maybe manosphere adjacent. But also that started, I mean, this wave started after the toxic masculinity discourse, I think, kind of crested around 2016. And then there was all this talk about disillusioned young men flocking to Trump and as the media would say, the far right. And now I think in some sense we're seeing the fruits of everything you've just described about how men have been treated in the culture. Clavicular has emerged in the manosphere and the streamosphere. And Nick, I am really curious to get your reaction to what happened to Clavicular last night and what he says he's doing tonight. So clavicular, this is going to be S7 I'm selling at the clip. He was out in Miami last night. If people don't know who he is, he's a looks maxing influencer, has gone super, super viral on TikTok. He does the hammer to the jaw thing to try and make it look more chiseled. Literally chiseled, I guess. Takes a cocktail of different drugs to look smacks. And boy did the drugs catch up with him last night? Let's take a look here at S7. This was all streaming live. So Cloak Ikular's at, like, a bar. Live streaming. Holy fuck. As he spirals into what we now know became an overdose, his friends offer him an addy. And if you're listening to this, it's a bleak scene. His friends are again. They know they're live on the Internet, trying to figure out what to do here. And he was seen being carried out of the bar, carried to the hospital. Then he posts on X. This was the consequence of all of the drugs that he had taken to cope with being neurotypical. F8. We can throw that up on the screen. That's how he explained it. So then today he said he'd be back at a club doing a promotion. S8, let's roll the clip.

[Nick Freitas]

Hey, guys, I'm all good.

[Emily]

Bach Rock club grand opening is still

[Spencer Clavin]

tonight, so I will see you guys at 12.

[Emily]

You know, Nick, he's sort of like a. A circus freak on the Internet. You know, nobody wants to be him, but people enjoy consuming the content to just in a sense, gawk at him, laugh at him. And what's interesting is that he seems to know that this stuff is. Is live streaming. It's very sad, obviously, but through the prism of everything you've been thinking about and writing about lately, what do you make of this?

[Nick Freitas]

You know, I didn't even know what looks maxing was until a few weeks ago. And. And we. We actually did a video on it. And one of the things we talked about it was trying to understand kind of the impetus behind it. And some of it's obvious, right? It's the idea that, well, yeah, if you're good looking as a guy, well, then maybe girls will date you. Right? Like nothing else. But it's also this idea of, if you think about it in a strange way, it's seeking objectivity. And I don't mean that in the form of objectifying somebody. I mean in the form of something that no matter what the experts say, something, no matter what culture tries to tell you, is on some level true. And the idea is, and you actually saw this too, Andrew Tate once said, if you're, if you're, you know, if you think you got a lot of problems, go get a six pack and then tell me how many problems you have. And on some level, people look at that and it seems kind of shallow. On another level, you say, at least with getting a six pack, it's okay having a six Pack is universally respected. There's almost no one that will say, oh, that's a bad thing, right? Like everybody thinks it's something that it's desirable. And when I look what this guy's trying to do, he's trying to grasp out at something that is universally desirable. And the problem is kind of what I was saying earlier on is that the moment you try to chase after stuff that, that isn't actually rooted in anything that is, let's say, genuinely honorable, it's going to leave you feeling hollow, right? Because it's not actually filling the thing that you really need. It's not actually filling the core component of your identity that you're looking for. And I've seen this not just within this area of looks, Max, the manosphere. You look at the special operations community and what do you have? A lot of you have strong, intelligent, you know, competent, capable guys that were part of a network of other guys that went out and did very, very complex, difficult, oftentimes dangerous missions. And with, and as long as they were in that environment, they had a sense of meaning, identity and purpose, right? They were a Green Beret, they were a seal, they were Delta, whatever it was. And then when that goes away, all of a sudden they're, they're, they're chasing after meaning again. It's, what is it that defines me? What is it that sets me apart? And I think all of us are looking that from some, on some level. And if someone were to ask me, like, where do you get your identity? Like, oh, well, that's simple, right? Because I've been a Green Beret, I've been an elected official, you know, I've been a business owner and now like social media influencer, right? Like, that's when I still want to slap people when they call it to me. That's not where I get my identity. My identity is in Christ. And the reason why that's so important is because it's not only for me. It's not only objective, it's not only true, it's eternal. No, there's no circumstance, there's nothing that can happen to me that changes that reality. And so no matter where I'm at, if things are good, if things are bad, if things are going my way, if they're not going my way, if there's difficulty, I expect doesn't shake who I am at the core fundamental nature of, of, you know, how, how I identify myself or what my meaning or purpose in life is. And so I, I understand, I, I understand when a guy is in a situation where they feel like everything objective has been ripped away on some. Some level, and they are searching for anything that gives them identity or some semblance of meaning or purpose. And, you know, look, if. If I don't. I don't presume know this, this individual or their. Their motivations, but if what they're currently finding identity in is looks, maxing, and what they're currently finding meaning and purpose in is. Is live streaming this and talking about their experiences, and if they're. If they are associating likes and follows with love and community that. It's not hard to see why somebody would fall into this, but it's also not hard to see why they would overdose on it. And it's not hard to see why at some point this breaks down. Because your looks are going to change. I don't care what sort of cocktail you take, things are going to change over time. And the question is, is what sustains you when all of a sudden the things that you anticipated giving you identity, meaning and purpose do not.

[Emily]

Well, there's this odd tension in. Actually, I would argue the, like, entire manosphere over their obsession with looks and the kind of traditional, masculine, or our traditional concept of what masculinity is. I mean, to me, it's like, incredibly feminine. How obsessed Andrew Tate and his brother and clavicular and a lot of these guys are with their physical appearance. That, of course, doesn't mean men shouldn't be, you know, presentable and, you know, clean, gut, decent.

[Nick Freitas]

Shower, Love of God, shower.

[Emily]

Please just do that. Like, base level. Yeah, but Nick, I find that interesting, too, because, you know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with, you know, the. The exceptional man who's very interested in. There's. There's some men who cut hair and are very good at that, or our stylists are very good at that. But there's some. It does seem to me to be attention and some of this, you know, the cultural confusion about masculinity manifesting in these guys.

[Nick Freitas]

Well, yeah, so. So for Andrew Tate, I mean, give him his due. The guy knows how to fight. Right? The guy's a successful business owner. And so there's certain attributes that we generally chalk up to masculinity that. That Andrew meets. The question is, is in service to what? That's. That's one of the biggest questions that need to be answered. Because if it's just in service to. I sleep with a lot of women. I have a Bugatti, I have a nice car. Well, Again, that's hedonistic. That's hedonistic pursuits. And again, guys really want more than that. All of us really want more than that. We really want to feel like something that we're doing actually means something. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are searching for something that's true and meaningful. And again, the reason why, I think when you look at things like looks, Maxine, or the Bugatti or whatever else it is, it's because it's hard to argue that, you know, again, if you're aesthetically pleasing, right, That's. That's rewarded in society. And. And no matter how much Wokeism or progressivism or feminism or whatever else tries to pretend like those things don't matter, reality ends up has a way of demonstrating that they do. The question is, is, do they matter enough? Are they sufficient? And the answer is, no, absolutely not. And, and again, when. When I was writing this out on, what are the things you have to know? There's some stuff in there that's a little bit more frivolous.

[Spencer Clavin]

Right.

[Nick Freitas]

Do you really need to know how to kick in a door? Right. I would argue. I would argue you could probably go through most of your life never having to kick in a door, but if you find yourself in a situation that for some reason the door is locked and your little girl's on the other side of the house is on fire, you better know how to kick in that door. And the thing is, most men will think to us, well, of course I would know how to do it in that situation. No, you don't necessarily. You could do something stupid. And so the point of what I'm trying to do with a lot of these different tasks, some of them a little bit more meaningful and a little bit more philosophical and some a little bit more fun, but still relevant, is this idea that there's. There's all kinds of tasks that you should know how to do as a man. And unfortunately, in a civilization where we are largely fairly. We're fairly safe and fairly prosperous and fairly secure without men having to kind of go into those typical pursuits that men have had to throughout most of human civilization, we start to get this idea that it's no longer necessary. And I was explaining it this way once. Not to a man act funny enough, but to a young woman. And we were having a conversation about marriage. And I always make it a point to build up marriage because, again, I've had a great experience with it. And a lot of people think, oh, you got lucky. It's like my Wife and I both came from divorced homes. We got married at 19 and 20. We moved across the country, and I went into the military. And for the first 10 years of our marriage, I spent half of it away from home between training, combat deployments, other deployments, et cetera. So if you wanted a cocktail for a marriage. Marriage to fail, ours was it, right? And yet it did it. It thrived. Why? And I'm talking to this young woman, and she says, you know, I recently got engaged. I said, oh, my gosh, that's great. Congratulations. Marriage is awesome. Don't let anybody tear it down. Like, I've. I've had a great marriage, and I'm talking about how much I. I enjoy my role of protecting and providing and teaching my son that he's a protector as well. And she looks at me and she goes, oh, we don't subscribe to those traditional gender roles.

[Emily]

Oh.

[Nick Freitas]

And I said, oh, okay. I said, that's, you know, that's interesting. Can I ask you a question? She goes, sure. I said, if you and your fiance. We were in Washington, D.C. at the time. I said, if you and your fiance were here in Washington, D.C. and you just come out and you had a wonderful dinner together, and you're walking back to the parking lot, and as you're walking back to the car, somebody jumps out of an alleyway with a knife. Now, I want you to imagine in this scenario, in one version of this scenario, your fiance jumps in between you and the person with a knife, and in the other scenario, he jumps behind you. In which scenario are you more attracted to your fiance? And she kind of smiled, and she goes, well, that's not fair. I said, see? No, it is fair. It is fair because you and I both know in which scenario you're more attracted to your fiance. And what I'm here to tell you is that's perfectly appropriate. You don't need to feel guilty that you're more attracted by the fact that your fiance would step up and fulfill the role that a man should fulfill in that. And that's protecting his fiance from someone that would harm her.

[Emily]

And the inverses. In which scenario does he feel better about himself as well?

[Nick Freitas]

Exactly. Like there's like, why are we fighting this? Why. Why all of a sudden are we meant to feel like there's something wrong by. By feeling the way that we naturally feel about these? Sort of the way I would say that God would. Has designed us to feel about it? And yet we are. And that's a lot of cultural influence, educational influence, political Influence, but it's nonsense, right? The moment we start to realize that, you know, no, as a man, any young man is going to, is typically going to feel competitive, is going to be prone to at least some degree of violence, right? We see this all the time with toddlers, right? Where you, you give, you give the little girl a GI Joe and she will have a tea party with it. You give the little boy a doll and he will turn it into a weapon. Right? Why?

[Emily]

Well, Nick, actually we have a clip. So country singer Maren Morris, who had. There's always a clip, who had a great first album, has been downhill ever since. But she, on April 5th posted this clip that's been making the rounds, I suspect in mom circles because Maren Morris talked about, as a mom of a six year old, getting some feedback from a person in public about, you know, letting her, her six year old boy be a boy. Let's take a listen here to S4. My son just turned 6. And some of these gender things happen pretty early where it's like only girls can like pink, girls can't like Spider Man. And you know, they hear this like at school from another friend, like, whatever. And it's my job as his parent to correct that and be like, actually anyone can like the color pink. I like Spider Man. But this guy I was talking about this with was rolling his eyes and like being pretty dismissive of my concerns and was like, well, these, these boys

[Nick Freitas]

need to toughen up anyways.

[Emily]

And upon hearing that, of course my first instinct is to see red, but I can emotionally regulate myself. And I just calmly said, no, he doesn't need to toughen up actually. And he loves, he loves baseball, he loves musicals. He's obsessed with Hamilton right now. He loves colors. Sometimes we paint his nails. He loves, loves to like make jewelry now and friendship bracelets. And it's like he's a person. But the tough way that word was being used by this man, I was like, he doesn't need to be tough, especially not in the way that you're using that word. If you're listening to this, Nick basically buried his head in his hands when he heard her talk about painting nails. But you know, in some sense, obviously there's, there's truth, Nick, to little boys and little girls having these, you know, very eclectic, different interests and you know, saying, oh, the girl has this really shiny pink bracelet. Bracelet. Maybe you're four years old and you're like, that's shiny. It's cool. I like it. That stuff can happen. Of course it can happen. So how should people be thinking about this when, you know, you hear Maren Morris saying, just go pedal to the metal.

[Nick Freitas]

It's not. It's not a problem when a guy might have certain interests that are generally associated more with feminine traits. And a girl has different, you know, interests that might be associated with more masculine trees. We call them tomboys. Right. But this idea that he doesn't need to toughen up. Okay, well, good luck. Did you decide that for him? Did you decide that for him, Mom? Because I have bad news for you. The world will require him to toughen up, and you're not protecting him right now. The things that you're doing right now when he's six, may make him feel warm and safe and secure. But there will come a time, mom, where those things make him feel weak. And that's not because society has some sort of grand plan to manipulate or. Or harm your boy. It's because there really are roles in society. And that's not to say that there aren't, again, certain more masculine roles that the women can play at times, or more feminine roles that are things that we generally associate with femininity that men can play. Right. There's a problem with a man cooking. Right. That's not necessarily a feminine role. There's no problem with a woman knowing how to shoot. Really? Well, I highly encourage it and taught my daughters how to shoot since they were five. But this idea. He doesn't need to toughen up. We're going to paint his nails and we're doing all these other things. Okay? Is that for him, mom, or is that for you? Because he's going to have to be a man one day, and I don't know anything about her or this boy's father or whatnot. But something tells me, because from what I've seen, is that most women, yet they don't want to marry or have children with a boy that's painting his nails and can't regulate his own emotions or can't deal with difficult situations. And yes, is there an element of masculinity that can delve into the realm of the toxic? Sure. Just like there's a realm of femininity that can delve into the realm of the toxic. So there's masculine traits, there's feminine traits. They're not necessarily moral or immoral until you start developing them for a particular purpose or a particular skill set. So, for instance, if a man has aggression or a man has the capacity and capability for violence, well, one man may use that to steal from people. That's a negative manifestation of a masculine trait. One man might use it in order to protect people. That's a positive manifestation of a masculine trait. But what she's essentially doing is telling them that there are no masculine traits.

[Spencer Clavin]

Right?

[Nick Freitas]

It's just do what you want or what you feel like. And really what it ends up being is, no, you're doing what mom feels like. And you know, I thank God I had great relationship with my mom and dad. Even they got divorced when I was three. I'd spend the summers with my dad, I'd spend the school year with my mom. But I always say one of the greatest things that my mom did for me was that as I started to get older, she called out the protector in me. So she would do things like, hey, you know, hey buddy, I need you to carry the, I need you to carry the, the groceries for mommy. I need you to, you know, you need to open the door. And, and as I got a little bit older, buddy, can you please check the doors to make sure they're locked at night? And what it was is that she was basically telling me that, hey, I want you to do these things that are helpful and protective because like I said, when you're little, mom ends up being kind of the source of protection, right? Dad ends up challenging a little bit more. Usually mom's over there trying to bubble wrap the world for her children where dad's up there seeing how high he can throw them in the, in the air because he likes it when they giggle, right? And there's a balance there, right? There's a balance where mom's providing kind of protection and security and dad's providing challenges and excitement. And when it balances out well, the child is getting everything that they need. They're learning how to navigate the world because the world will not be bubble wrapped for them. And so I always tell moms especially, it's like, yeah, no, absolutely, hold your little boy right, you know, kiss the boo boos, all of that. Like that's great. Just understand when he gets older and now he starts to get into environments that you can't control. The things that you did little, when he was three or four are going to start making him feel weak when he's 9 or 10. Especially when it comes to that first moment where it's the bully. I had this conversation with my wife, with my son and she's like, oh my, I'm going to call the parents. I'm like, no, you're not. You can't, babe. And she's like, why? I'm like, because he's now crossing over into a different age group. And because your son doesn't want the bully to be afraid of you. He wants the bully to be afraid of him. And you know what? We need a society where bullies are afraid of good men, but they're never going to become that as long as they're being pampered or protected constantly by their moms. So you need to. You need to start to work into this other phase. And my, I remember my wife asked me, like, how do I do that? I said, baby, here's the next phase of your relationship with your son. And it's going to cause a great relationship between you two because you're the first. You're the first woman he gets to practice with. With. You're the first woman he gets to practice being a little man for. And if you call that out on him, he will love you for it. And my son now is in the 101st Airborne. He's an. He's an infantryman. Yeah, he's an infantryman.

[Emily]

It worked.

[Nick Freitas]

But the funny part is, is like, dad was a soldier, right? Dad's a soldier. Son's a soldier. But oftentimes when Luke is going through something or is experiencing something, who's excited about something, the first person he calls is his mom. And it's because mom called out that protector in him. And so him and I get along. We get along beautifully. But I love the relationship he has with his mom. And it's because instead of. Instead of pretending that the world was not going to expect something different out of him as a man, instead she called it out. And now they have a great relationship.

[Emily]

I wanted to get your thoughts on the case of Savannah Hernandez in Minneapolis. New information coming now just today from News Nation. So Savannah Hernandez is a reporter with Turning Point usa. She was in the Minneapolis area on Saturday and was attacked on camera. Everything now is streamed. That's the so far, the through line of today's show. Unfortunately, News Nation reports that she was, quote, attacked Saturday during a protest in Minnesota, a flashpoint for conflicting views on immigration. She was covering a protest against immigrations and Customs Enforcement at the Whipple Federal Building, which has itself become a flashpoint when she was swarmed by people screaming obscenities, blowing horns and whistles, and repeatedly shoving her to the ground. We can start rolling some of the video of this. I'm going to talk over it because it's long. This is S1. Yep. So you can see this happening Blowing whistles right in her face. Getting super, super close to Savannah. And it's going to escalate from here. Man, those whistles. Here we go. About to get a shove. Apologies to everybody in the listening audience for the whistles, but that gives you a taste of exactly how brutal the situation around Hernandez was. There we go. It's physical. Clearly just being attacked here by the protesters. Of course, the crime of documenting what they're up to.

[Spencer Clavin]

Over.

[Emily]

Oh, boy. All right. So as people are continuing to watch this, I just want to know.

[Spencer Clavin]

Boy.

[Emily]

News station reports there were three arrests in this case. According to the hen. Hennepin County Sheriff's Office, Paige aso, you can see on camera, was arrested for disorderly conduct, and her father, Chris aso, was arrested for obstruction with force. Her boyfriend was also taken into custody. According to Rich McHugh over at Noon Nation, Hernandez told McHugh, I've never asked for security when conducting point and shoot journalism because I've always had some semblance of hope that I still live in a safe country. However, after Saturday, TP USA ensured that I will have new security protocols moving forward to the violent nature of the left wing. All right, we could probably cut the video and get Nick's take and just seeing how close.

[Nick Freitas]

I volunteer for the security detail.

[Emily]

Let's. So, Nick, is she. Is she right that she needs security now just to do journalism?

[Nick Freitas]

Yes, she is. She is. So I do work with Turningpoint as well from time to time. I've done tabling events and whatnot, and I've done the same thing with Young America's foundation. And I've always been asked the questions, do you want security? And I'm always like, look, if you're concerned about the students, go ahead and get it. But I'm not necessarily. I don't want an event to not take place because of the costs associated with security, especially because a lot of universities now will jack up the cost. For conservative organizations, isn't it amazing that they don't seem to need the same security protocols when left wing speakers come on campus? But whenever it's a conservative, and in this case, you have a case where Savannah, where this. I'm not going to call him a man. That's not the best description for what he is. But when that fat ass jumped up there and decided to shove Savannah, who's all of about 120 pounds soaking wet, to the ground, I'm sure he felt like a real man. And this is exactly what the left does. When my wife was actually running for State Senate. One of the things that really surprised her on some level, she goes, you know, it's interesting. Leftist men really do hide a hatred for women that they will let come out the moment they know it's a conservative women. It's almost like they're allowed. And then all of that hatred, all that frustration, all of that angst, all of it just manifests right there most of the time verbally. But every once in a while, physically like this, you can tell when it's a man, they like the offset of a rifle. Right. But it's a. When it's a woman like this, they feel like they can walk right up and shove her to the ground.

[Spencer Clavin]

Down.

[Nick Freitas]

And one of the things that I said right after this happened, I said, look to the sheriff's department, to the police, whatever it is, if you do not arrest and prosecute these people, I promise you this isn't going to be allowed to continue. One way or another, it will end. You can either end it through the typical legal processes, but if you decide to play this game where it's like, oh, well, you know, we're not going to prosecute, or we decided to let go, or, or maybe they're not fit to stand trial or whatever else, nonsense, just understand it doesn't end there.

[Emily]

There.

[Nick Freitas]

It doesn't end there because too many of us are sick of this at this point. And I'm not kidding. I actually had a conversation with Turning Point yesterday, and they were talking about some of the projects that we were going to do. And I was like, if Savannah needs help, let me know. Because that's the sort of thing where I think a very, very difficult lesson needs to be taught to certain people that have grown accustomed to this idea. Especially in blue cities where you have cowards for mayors, governors, attorney generals, police chiefs and district attorneys who refuse to prosecute. They have this idea that they can get away with this in perpetuity. And if law enforcement is not gonna do its proper job, and I understand that a lot of the guys in the cop wearing the bat, they wanna do it. It's leadership that prevents them from doing so. If they're not willing to do it, oh, it will get done. It will get done. Cause all of us are tired of this. And this has been part of a long play. If you read Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, you understand exactly what the left is trying to do. They constantly elevate and elevate and elevate until something bad happens. And then they play the victim, victim, just like the People in this video shoving Savannah around it, they played the victim. The difference now is that we have cameras, we have body cameras, and everyone knows they're not the victim, they're the perpetrators. And for the longest time, longest time in conservative politics, I remember wondering why, why is it that when I disagree with somebody on the left on tax policy, they call me a racist or a sexist or a misogynist. Right. It has nothing to do with what we're actually discussing. Right. Why is it when I want to protect, protect second amendment rights, I'm called something that has nothing to do with you? Oh, you're a racist? How was that racist? And I realized it had nothing to do with the actual definition of the word. All they were trying to do was try to create a framework where they could rob me of moral legitimacy. Because the moment my argument was better than theirs, they immediately, they immediately diverted ad hominem attack. Because if I'm a racist or a sexist or a misogynist, why would you listen to my position on taxes? Why would you listen to my position on the second amendment or self defense? But see, something changed. Instead of being content with just trying to rob us of moral legitimacy, they started calling us things like a threat to democracy, Fascist Nazis. If you didn't agree with carving up gender confused children, you are now accused of committing trans genocide. If you said something they didn't like, your words were now violence. And what I realized was, is they were using this break in terminology not because they were trying to continue to lead rob me of moral legitimacy. No, no, no. Now they were trying to create a moral framework where they could commit acts of violence against me and pretend like they were the victim. And my response to that is I don't care. I don't care anymore if I'm on the ground, if I'm on the site and I see you push a woman to the ground, something is happening next and you're not going to like it. And quite frankly, I don't think the left is prepared for that. They're only used to burning down their own cities. You notice antifa doesn't go into the country.

[Spencer Clavin]

Country.

[Nick Freitas]

There's a reason for that. And it's about time that the country starts coming over there. Because I'm tired of this. I don't know in what world this is acceptable behavior, but apparently it's in the leftist world. And if they're willing to engage in that sort of behavior, they need to be taught a lesson. And either law enforcement, law enforcement can do it, or someone else can. But I promise you the lesson is going to be learned.

[Emily]

I'm fairly impressed that Hennepin county actually made arrests in this case. That's been a, you know, difficult blue jurisdiction. So some good news, I guess, on that front.

[Nick Freitas]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, some of it too is sometimes you see a big difference between local police and sheriff because sheriffs are elected now. There's actually, there's an interesting story. In Washington state, they just passed legislation that allows the governor to completely like, essentially overturn a sheriff's election and remove him from power if he's a threat to public safety. And that's precisely because in many of these jurisdictions, the sheriff's is the last line of defense because they're directly elected by the people.

[Emily]

Nick Freitas, pleasure to have you on the show tonight. Where can people buy the book?

[Nick Freitas]

You can buy it pretty much anywhere. So anywhere you would typically buy a book, hard copy, paperback, audio, you can do the same there.

[Emily]

There you go. It's called the man book. Once again, Nick, we really appreciate it. I hope you have a great rest of your evening. Thanks so much for being here.

[Nick Freitas]

My pleasure. Thank you.

[Emily]

You absolutely. We'll be back in just a moment with Spencer Clavin. But first, a quick break. Well, for years, legacy media, government and big data companies coaxed us into surrendering our digital freedom. We talk about this on the show all the time. Giving lip service the whole way to privacy while leaving their digital backdoors wide open for their own purposes. Well, unplugged set out to do something about it. The upphone by unplugged is the smartphone designed to restore your rights when it comes to blocking third party trackers from shadowy data brokers. The UPPhone by Unplugged outshines every device on the market. And you can see it actually on the phone that I have here. This is my upphone. You can see it right now. You just open up the. It's actually really cool. There's a privacy center right on the home screen. You open it up and it shows you how many trackers have been blocked so far that day. You have total privacy controls on the phone and so you can just switch things on and off. And one of the absolute coolest things about the upphone is that there's even a battery disconnect switch. It's physically on the phone, so off really means off. And all of this is independently verified and tested. So you can actually be confident in knowing your upphone is the most private smartphone that you could possibly buy. So Check out upphone from [e-mail] Emily

[Spencer Clavin]

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[Nick Freitas]

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[Spencer Clavin]

All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Emily]

All right, we're back now with our friend Spencer Clavin. He's the associate editor over at the Claremont Review of Books. He's also co host of Clavin's on the Culture. There's a new episode out today. He's also author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World. Very, very busy man. Spencer. How do you have time to come on after party and read all of the books behind you?

[Spencer Clavin]

I mean, that's a big assumption you're making there. And I don't do all of it at once. You know, you got to keep the books on hand just in case you suddenly decide that you have a moment. I do actually have. You can't see it, but I brought Dante's Inferno, which is the current young heretics topic or the theme of our discussion today, depending on how you view the news.

[Emily]

Actually, since Spencer said that, can I just roll? We don't have to roll the whole thing. But I want to roll. S11. This is sneako's conversation with Alexander Dugan.

[Spencer Clavin]

What circle of hell is this?

[Emily]

This is what I was going to ask you, Spencer. Okay, so quote Professor Jang. I've never been on the Jang train. To be fair. This is some interesting stuff. I guess people have seen for Professor Jang, but here's Sneako, Professor Jang and Alexander Dugan. It's like a Stefan sketch. S11.

[Spencer Clavin]

What do you think are the main

[Nick Freitas]

causes of the problem with American Western values right now? I think the root of the problem problem is 1694 because that is when the bank of England was first chartered. You have mentioned, for example, Libertas statue. But that's.

[Spencer Clavin]

He stole my bit.

[Nick Freitas]

Hecata.

[Spencer Clavin]

Hecate, the great goddess of the hell. Because America actually is territory with The Greek gods.

[Emily]

$39 trillion in debt.

[Nick Freitas]

Yes, and if people stop buying US

[Spencer Clavin]

Treasuries, then America would collapse.

[Nick Freitas]

So you can make the argument we

[Emily]

can pull out of this. Just wanted to give people a flavor of what was happening on the sne Ghost dreams. You know, Spencer, it occurs to me actually as I'm watching that, that for Duken, who's genuinely interesting, like people can say he's dangerous, they don't like him, whatever. I don't think he's really that big of a threat to be. I think people overstate his influence, let's put it that way. He's a. He's a somewhat interesting brain.

[Spencer Clavin]

Routine is probably a little overblown.

[Emily]

Right?

[Spencer Clavin]

And he's like, what do I know? But like, it doesn't seem like he's actually in charge of anything. He's just kind of a rando.

[Emily]

Exactly. He has some interesting criticisms of liberalism. I don't agree with him, but the fact that he as like this academic is on a stream with sneako and quote Professor Jang, who's I believe, like a high school teacher, a Canadian high school teacher in Beijing, that's just incredible all around.

[Spencer Clavin]

I mean, this psyop has everything. It's got random obscure Russian philosophy, post liberal philosophers. It's got bleach blonde Chinese high school teachers. It's got midgets doing coke in the bass room. Oh, wait, no, that's. I'm sorry, I lost track.

[Emily]

It's actually Stefan.

[Spencer Clavin]

Exactly. I think that Mike Dugan take is basically, it's an indictment of us that this guy is even remotely interesting. Like, it's when the west becomes a caricature of itself that critics of the west start to be like, huh, the guy's got a point. Like, maybe everything did go wrong with the Enlightenment, you know, like it didn't, you know, but we on the American right have also been playing the where did we go wrong? Game. And people have been tempted to sort of gesticulate wildly and say, kind of look around you everywhere. Right. I will confess to you that I've gotten a little bit sick of this game because you can play it with the Protestant Reformation. You can play it.

[Emily]

Oh, can you?

[Nick Freitas]

Can, yeah.

[Spencer Clavin]

Would you like to? Because I'm going to crack open this. Speaking of foreign psyops, I'm going to crack open this Haibaru Japanese whiskey seltzer.

[Emily]

Cheers. Yes. Go read Spencer's latest on Claremont about how he's obsessed with Japan.

[Spencer Clavin]

I'm commemorating the Japanese American bromance with this Japanese seltzer and the new clavings on the culture, which is about a Japanese video game. But like, oh, well, there you go.

[Emily]

Okay, yeah.

[Spencer Clavin]

I don't know. I mean, I'm so out of it. I'm such an older that I have a hard time really parsing the sneako of it all.

[Emily]

But it's the sneako Dugan alliance.

[Spencer Clavin]

Yeah, right. The axis of, the axis of douchery. Is that, is that how we would say it? I mean, it's, it's like, it does seem to me like this is the sign of, of an intellectual void rather than an actually interesting conversation. Like this is a, this is because we don't have, have a lot of direction or clarity internally that we're turning to these obscure sort of so called edgy Russian philosophers, however interesting they may be, to entertain as thought experiments, I guess. I don't know. It's like, have you ever wanted to entertain far out philosophical ideas, but on a platform for idiots? Because, boy, have I got a show for you.

[Emily]

Like, wait, you don't, you don't see this as sort of. You don't see this as sort of when, you know, let's say Tom Wolf used to go on a talk show to promote a book, or you used to have, you know, William F. Buckley hosting debates on broadcast television, or didn't Johnny Carson have sort of the public intellectuals on the late night circuit? You don't see this as the public intellectuals returning to the, the masses.

[Spencer Clavin]

It's not quite of the caliber, is it, of Jorge Luis Borges talking to William F. Buckley about the differences between Spanish and English and why he prefers the kind of etymological richness of English. I mean, I think it's, it's like history repeats itself. The first time is tragedy, the second time is farce. Like that's, that's kind of. It would be the return of the public intellectual to the public sphere if the intellectuals and the public were in like, in the same universe. But it does sort of feel, doesn't it, to you as if like the actual caliber of thought that goes on in this podcast world is kind of like empty somehow? I mean, it's one thing to say, like the west has somehow lost its way. Like, let's interrogate where, when and how. It's another thing to say the left, the west has lost its way because the west is inherently evil, which is just the same thing that we've been kind of bored with on the left for some time.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Spencer Clavin]

And I think that, you know, I, I always have this metaphor that I brought up when, when BLM was a big deal that like, if you're in a fist fight with somebody and he Says your shoes on top of right, your shoe might actually be untied. In other words, his criticism might be valid, but he's pointing it out to you right now so that you'll drop your guard and he can deck you in the jaw. In other words, these. These systematic, introspective criticisms that we in the west are used to making of ourselves are. Have their time and their place, but I. I find myself, like, less interested in them when they obviously come from. From a corner that is already rooting for us to fail. And I mean that when it's the Russians, and I mean that when it's blm. Like, I think of those as sort of a piece, as an intellectual project, and that's. It's not that I find the, you know, the criticisms themselves entirely without merit. It's that I find the spirit in which they're being made inherently unhelpful. In the same way that a hit piece against an institute that I'm a part of, let's say the Claremont Institute, might have some things which I think.

[Emily]

Huh, it's never the subject of a hit. Me.

[Spencer Clavin]

Yeah, we've never actually been through this, just hypothetically, like in Minecraft. Let's imagine that somebody wrote a think piece about the Claremont Institute. It's not like the New York Times has never said anything about the Claremont Institute that I thought, like, I could sort of see how from the outside you might view us that way, or, like, maybe we could do a better job of presenting ourselves. But, like, I know that the author of that piece is making these criticisms because they want the Claremont Institution Institute to fail. Similarly, with the hit piece that came out against UATX recently in Politico, the university, the kind of startup university where I teach, it described things which I think people within UATX would say that some of these are realities, but it described them from a point of view of the author clearly, obviously wanted the thing to have failed already, and so was presenting the whole attack in this very motivated way.

[Emily]

It's about framing. Yeah, I think that's fair.

[Spencer Clavin]

It's about framing. It's about intent. It's about, like, you know, friendly versus constructive and friendly criticism, which, again, the west has always done to bring it back to Dugin and the Enlightenment and all these things which you and I probably like. If we sat here and gamed out, what are our criticisms of the Enlightenment, we would probably agree on like 75 to 100% of what those are. But. But we do so internally from a place of love. Don't we for Western civilization, right, like understood that this is an enterprise which we value and cherish. Where are some ways in which it has like, fallen prey to certain congenital defects that might need like, rectification from another side? I just don't, I don't know that that's Dugin's project or Sneako's for that matter. I mean, I don't know.

[Emily]

Yeah, no, no. Rousseau heads here, to be fair. Now, you said the phrase intellectual void in the. That conjured in my mind this clip of the View Trying to understand the Gospels. S10 let's go ahead and roll this from yesterday. Jesus himself did not run around saying, I'm the Messiah. I'm the Messiah. Jesus. That's exactly what Jesus said.

[Spencer Clavin]

I am the.

[Nick Freitas]

You know what?

[Spencer Clavin]

Why is it not. Got God behind that?

[Emily]

Jesus, Jesus was not nor the Messiah. Yes, it is. When you are the Messiah.

[Spencer Clavin]

I'm sorry, that was what she. I just quoting Whoopi.

[Emily]

It's too much for me. It's okay when Whoopi says it. It's not okay when you say it.

[Spencer Clavin]

I'm sorry, that's right. It's like that. That's our word, right? Old is our word.

[Emily]

I mean, well, listen, and, and also you're a man, so it's a different coming from a different context. Speaking of context and framing Spencer. Yes, good point. It's aggressive. We'll put it that way.

[Spencer Clavin]

Okay.

[Emily]

Now, Joy Behar is trying to make this point about Donald Trump and it's the Trump, as of course, as we now know, a red Cross doctor The image of Donald Trump as

[Spencer Clavin]

a sacred red from on high with weird demons behind him. As I recall that in that picture.

[Emily]

Yeah, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't put too much thought into it, Spencer. It was simply the Red Cross, which we love. We love Red cross. That's all it was. And this is also all baked into the criticism that John Donald Trump has been hurling at Pope Leo, an American Pope. So obviously that's baked into it. Let's take a look at J.D. vance here talking about the back and forth between his boss and the pope.

[Spencer Clavin]

S9 so the pope said something where

[Emily]

he said, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna

[Nick Freitas]

try to remember this is last night

[Emily]

at the turning point.

[Spencer Clavin]

He said that God is never on

[Nick Freitas]

the side of those who wield the sword.

[Spencer Clavin]

God is never on the side of

[Nick Freitas]

those who wield the sword. I'm pretty sure that he said that

[Emily]

exact, that exact statement.

[Nick Freitas]

Now on the one hand, again, I like that the Pope is An advocate for peace. I think that's certainly one of his roles. On the other hand, how can you

[Spencer Clavin]

say that God is never on the

[Nick Freitas]

side of those who wield the sword? Sword?

[Spencer Clavin]

Was God on the side of the

[Nick Freitas]

Americans who liberated France from the Nazis? Was God on the side of the Americans who liberated Holocaust camps and liberated

[Spencer Clavin]

those, those innocent people from, you know,

[Nick Freitas]

those who had survived the Holocaust? I agree. Jesus Christ certainly does not support genocide. Whoever yelled that out from the dark, he certainly does not. I think that's pretty easy. I think that's a pretty easy principle.

[Spencer Clavin]

Voice clamoring in the, in the darkness.

[Emily]

Spencer, what, what I'm seeing in all of this, just over the last 48 hours, I guess since Trump posted that meme, it must have been. So it's probably 72 hours now. I think it was later on Sunday. But I've seen a fairly interesting conversation, not just on the right, but more broadly, about the, the sacred and the profane. And it hasn't been framed exactly in that way, obviously. I mean, in some corners of, of the intellectual, that has been. But.

[Spencer Clavin]

But you mean it's not part of the AI poster that Trump is posted? It was like the sacred and the profane kind of.

[Emily]

No, but, you know, in a way, it did have the sacred and profane all built into one image.

[Spencer Clavin]

Okay, beautifully, I have a take on this. I think Trump has a philosophy of the sacred and the profane that he actually expressed at Charlie Kirk's funeral. But let me kind of back up to get into this.

[Emily]

Oh, okay, let's do it. It.

[Spencer Clavin]

Okay, so I am not a Catholic, and I, I frankly don't understand, and I leave it to Catholics, like, how to resolve the cognitive dissonance that happens when the Pope says something you disagree with, but you are in a position to express opinions publicly, like, genuinely, I, I say that with the brightest goodwill. Like, I, I don't think that I am a person to speak with authority on. On how you should do that. But, yeah, I. Let me say how I, I see it as a scholar, just of, like, intellectual history more generally. Right. There emerged from about, say, St. Augustine up through, like, the end of the Holy Roman Empire, there emerged this thing that's sometimes called the diarchy, which is really a theory of two spheres of power, and Protestants about sphere sovereignty, where they say, you know, the earthly executive wields power on Earth, and the magisterium, the Catholic magisterium, or the Church, wields power over souls. And those are two different but complementary ways of talking about our Condition, obviously, one is ultimate, the religious one is ultimate, but the temporal one is also important. And it's this imperfect stage on which this spiritual drama plays out. So we ought to pay some attention to it and give respect within his sphere to the sovereign. Sovereign right. And the sovereign's job, the earthly sovereign's job, is to secure the goods of this life, whereas the church's is to secure eternal life. Roughly speaking, that's, in theory, how I think all of this is supposed to work.

[Nick Freitas]

Right.

[Spencer Clavin]

Donald Trump got up at Charlie Kirk's funeral and said something very remarkable that drew a lot of heat, which was Erica Kirk had just performed this act of Christian, public Christian forgiveness, where she said, I forgive the murderer of my. My husband and I. I forgive that young man. And Donald Trump got up and he said that, you know, that's very nice. Erica Kirk, she loves her enemy. She's a good Christian.

[Emily]

I don't.

[Spencer Clavin]

I hate my enemies. I hate them very much. Now, everyone freaked out about this because

[Emily]

Trump, that was good. It was better than mine.

[Nick Freitas]

It's.

[Spencer Clavin]

Oh, thanks, man. You know, I've had some. Some time to work on it. And. Okay, so everyone freaked out about this. That's his literal job description. Like, according to the theology that I just laid out, like, hate your enemies, hate our public enemies on our behalf is the job of the magistrate. It's the job of the person who's, like, the embodiment of temporal power, where we have earthly enemies that we have to act against. Right. Like, literally, the friend, enemy distinction. Another very controversial thing. But it's like, it's not. Okay. Whoa. But, like, it's.

[Emily]

Before you get into, Carl, your lives, the world. The year is 1933. The live streamer, Spencer Clavin, his guest,

[Spencer Clavin]

Carl Schmidt, quoted as the friend. No, but this is. It's in Plato. Like, it's not, you know, that part of it. Carl Schmidt, actually, I do think is, like, makes some big errors, but, like, this isn't really one of them. Like, the idea that there is a necessary distinction that all states make between kind of us and them. Them, which is this bad, you know, way of framing things now is just. I think it's inescapable. And Trump is, like, really frank about it. And I guess if I think. I guess I'm coming around to agreeing with you that we really are having a discussion about sphere sovereignty right now. Like, we're having a debate. I don't know that we're having it in quite the Catholic way that, like, you know, Catholics might like us to have it. But we are having it in a very American way, which is like, like what is the kind of role, the interrelation between the things we believe about the spiritual world, which include loving your enemies. Right. Include like, your inner state will be maximally peaceful and oriented toward the good. If you practice maxing, you'll be peacemaxing, you'll be salvation mogging. Right. If you are loving your enemy. But also in this world, like, the reality is such that we have enemies and we have to hate them in the purely technical sense of like, enforcing our interests against theirs with extreme prejudice. Now, none of that like, you can have any number of positions about the Iran war itself and, and still think all of those things that I'm saying, if you see what I mean. But like, I just think, think that's kind of the conversation that we're having, maybe. Is that what you meant when you said like, no, no, I think that's.

[Emily]

Well, but even in the View clip, they're talking about in this wildly ignorant way, though Joy Behar was trying to get at was this like, the humility of Christ? And obviously she's wrong on the Messiah point. But yeah, I think it's interesting. Let's talk about.

[Spencer Clavin]

Can I defend Joy Behr for five seconds?

[Emily]

It'll just be, please, yes, King, because I think you.

[Spencer Clavin]

I would go like one step further, having just like stepped in it and called her old. I would just go one step further and say stipulated that Intellectual void would be a good alternate title for the View. But Jesus does often leave it to other people to call him the Messiah. He obviously does it, but he's like, who do you say that I am? And I think you're right that that's kind of probably what she had in mind. Maybe.

[Emily]

I don't know. Maybe that's true. Let's. Let's listen to. Actually, let's listen to Dave Chappelle now, who sat for an interview with, with NPR and reflected a bit on his experience advocating for the rights, frankly, I would say, of women and women to be protected from the, the madness of forcing them into private spaces with men. Also talking a little bit about comedy in 2026. So I'm going to run two clips here kind of back to back. Let's start here with the the trans part S14 about Republicans and Lauren Bow.

[Nick Freitas]

I did resent that the Republican Party ran on transgender jokes. You know, I felt like they were doing a weaponized version of what I was doing. I didn't. I didn't. It's not what I was doing. I'll give you an example. This is before I learned the phrase I respectfully decline. And I was on Capitol Hill and

[Emily]

everybody ran up to take pictures with

[Nick Freitas]

me from every congressional office. And I just take pictures with whoever asked.

[Emily]

I didn't ask how they vote or what their voting record is.

[Nick Freitas]

And everyone at first was like, CBC people. And then here comes Lauren Boebert. She said, can I get a picture? And I'd already taken 40 pictures. I didn't want to say no in front of everybody, but I didn't know the phrase. I respectfully declined. So I just took the picture. And then she posted the picture before I could even get from there to the show. Show and says something to the effect of just two people that knew that it's just two generous. She instantly, like, weaponized it or politicizing. So I got to the arena and I lit her ass up for doing that. And she should never do that.

[Emily]

Person like me. Now she knows what's up.

[Nick Freitas]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So here's s. Yeah. Now, right. Of course, here's S13 Chappelle's broader thoughts on the state of comedy right now. But what about people who feel like you're punching down, down, like you're not. You are not a trans person. What do you say to people who feel that in some occasions you're punching down?

[Nick Freitas]

Well, okay, this is a conversation that,

[Emily]

you know, you're bored by. Sick of.

[Nick Freitas]

Nah. Yeah, well, I'm sick of it. I don't want to be dismissive to that sentiment, but I don't know. That's a tough one for me because so much of that was media phenomenon. It. They almost reported on it as if I was doing something other than a comedy show.

[Emily]

Part of one of the reasons comedy

[Nick Freitas]

works is because everyone that bought a ticket, clearly, they want it to work. They want to have a good time, they want to have fun. But if you're a person that. That, that that is very angry or passionate about something and you're afraid that you're going to be misrepresented or misunderstood,

[Emily]

misconstrued, and you want.

[Nick Freitas]

You feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point.

[Emily]

I actually get kind of what he's saying about Boebert and that if you're a comedian, it feels maybe icky to you to be then used as a pawn. But at the same time, Spencer, he's talking about how comedy can be a useful, obviously, weapon of satire and should be to political ends, to cultural ends, and is frustrated, then when people take that and run with it and try to change the system, it's. It's odd.

[Spencer Clavin]

Yeah, I think it's a little cowardly. I mean, I give him like a B plus, B maybe B minus on this, you know, because he is, you know, he's a comedian, and in the domain of comedy, he is 100% correct. Like, he. He's done a lot better than most. Most mainstream comedians have done. He's held the line of saying the unsayable thing, the joke that people don't want him to make. There are a lot of better comedians about this issue and many others out there, but they're not as famous or as successful as Dave Chappelle. And it means something that somebody with that kind of clout to risk and lose would have been as courageous as he was. I think the better answer to the Bober question would be, I'll take a picture with anybody. I don't care what people say all sorts of things about me and about my work. Like, this is true even of small. Like, this is true of classics podcasters, right? I mean, people. People say things about me.

[Emily]

Let's forget the classics podcasters.

[Spencer Clavin]

Let's forget the celebrity classics podcasters who shall remain nameless. Yeah, no, it's like, you know, so won't somebody please think of the classics podcasters? Nobody will, it turns out. Yeah, exactly. Their heroism goes unheralded. But just to say, like, if you say anything in public ever, you know, you'll be. People will project their own agenda onto you. Like they say, there's that old joke, why do priests have white collars? It's so people can project their home movies onto them. Like, these roles that people play, in part, like public figures are there for people to work out their own psychic issues and questions and test out their own ideas against. And I think what Chappelle instinctively rejects, but doesn't quite know how to really say, is he instinctively rejects being held accountable to any version of that. And I think that's correct. But he's instead filtering it through the easiest. The path of least resistance, which is like, this bad Republican has used my work for bad ends. I mean, I think it's just like he genuinely. Like, not everybody should just be saying whatever comes to mind and the consequences, and we have a neutral standpoint towards truth or whatever. But comedians actually should. Like, that's kind of why they're such an important cultural role right now, is that this is. That is the domain where you're supposed to do that.

[Nick Freitas]

I Don't know.

[Spencer Clavin]

Know. I'm like, you know. Yeah, B, B, Sorry, B minus. B minus for Chappelle.

[Emily]

No, I think that's right. Speaking of, we've. We've got their intellectual void and now we've landed at the. I don't even know where we're going with the. Spencer, I do know that I want to get your thoughts on Val Kilmer, because he's been resurrected virtually, which is certainly not the same as being resurrected literally. And yet we continue to hurdle towards a blurred distinction between the two. You wrote about this In Light of the Mind, which is a great book that people should absolutely buy and check out. A trailer was listed released today for a film that stars the recently deceased Val Kilmer, who suffered, I would say. I mean, Spencer, I don't know about you, but I feel like he's. He suffered very valiantly in life and in a way that's sort of imprinted on people's memories. His. His death was premature and. And awful and. And there was a documentary about it that I think sticks with many people. His daughter has supported this. Her daughter Mercedes has said, quote, he always looked at emerging technologies with optimism as a tool to expand the possibilities of storytelling. The spirit is something that we are all honoring within its specific. Within the specific film of which he was an integral part. So basically the movie is called as Deep as the Grave. My understanding is that he was. Was set to be in this film. They couldn't do it. And so now that he's passed and AI has advanced. This is the trailer. S15, Don't Fear the Dead and Don't Fear Me. Spencer. This is freaky. This is uncanny. This is like when the first time people were totally shocked by where CGI was going, I think was the Harrison Ford Indiana Jones de Aging process, which was similarly uncanny. This is getting to a point where you will always know something is off. You will always know something is different. You will always have that instinctive reaction to it. It. But if you squint, it's. It's almost inseparable from reality.

[Spencer Clavin]

Well, have you. Do you remember Roadrunner, the Anthony Bourdain documentary?

[Emily]

Yes.

[Spencer Clavin]

This was the first Deepfake controversy that I recall, and it was. Bourdain killed himself and he wrote a note and they had his voice reading the note, but the voice was deepfaked, so the words were his words. I think I'm getting this right. The words were his words words, and the voice was a composite of. Of his voice. And people flipped out. I mean, this was A sub. This was like weeks of public conversation, and rightly so, because it is an abomination. Like it is a, is a terror and a horror. And I think we've become completely desensitized to it. It in this moment where everyone has lost their heads over AI, people are completely immersed in this hype about it, which comes out of a totally misinformed idea about intelligence and artificiality. Like both parts of the term are being radically misunderstood for what, what, you know, what human intelligence can do and what the artificial can and cannot achieve. There's a wonderful observation by the Austrian computer scientist Hans Moravec, I think is how you say it. And it's basically that things which people can do effortlessly, machines struggle to do, like hiking, things which take humans a lot of effort. Effort and analytical horsepower are sometimes really easy for machines to do, like playing chess. So there is this actually like complementary inversion in the things that they're good at and the things that we're good at, which stands completely to reason because in fact, right, our intelligence and their mimicry proceed in opposite directions. Ours, we think in absolute ideals and abstractions and then, then resolve them into particulars. AI takes a huge heap of particulars and makes a kind of mushy pile to imitate an abstraction out of them, right? And there is something demonic, not about the technology itself, but about using the technology to imitate what we do. There's a psalm, I think it's 115, where in the Bible, David, King David, the psalmist, is singing about idols, that is the statues that people worship and mistake for gods. And I say this purely as a psychological insight. So whatever listener, whatever the listener's kind of theological presuppositions are, you can take this with you no matter what, right? The psalmist says of these statues, eyes have they, but see not, ears have they, but hear not. And this is the most important point. Those that make them, them are becoming like them. In other words, the minute you start confusing an external imitation of your inner life for the inner life itself, you have begun to give away your own inner life. And I think we do. We're seeing that most in the realm of art, where we already have started to confuse mass produced schlock for creativity. Like Marvel movies could already have been made by machine. They are already basically just composites of pre arranged formulas, right? And so now you see all these tweets where people are like, Hollywood is finished. Like, AI has made the perfect movie. It's made a movie that just totals other stuff out of the Water. It's like, yeah, because you've already trained yourself to accept gunk as. As high art. And now a machine comes along and you're like, look, it jingles my favorite keys in front of me. Like it's become sentient. No, no. Like you are already on the path to selling your own sentience away. And I think, like, this part of it is. Is the worst version of it where we resonate.

[Emily]

That sounds eschatological, Spencer.

[Spencer Clavin]

Actually, I mean, it's. Everything is eschatological. This is like. Like one of our themes on this. That's true, that's true. But, like, look, I mean, I do. In light of the mind, I do sort of talk about this in eschatological terms in the sense that, like, I think this is. This meets the description of kind of the ultimate thing. Now, there have been other. Other versions of this in. Throughout history, I think, and in some ways, yeah, like, we're always faced with this temptation. But, you know, Aquinas wonderfully has these four different ways that you can read scripture, one of which is eschatological. And it's kind of like always. You can always read history and scripture eschatologically because we are always sort of progressing in that direction. But this is our great temptation. Our great temptation is to outsource the job of being human to something other than ourselves. A system of politics, a machine. Right. Like, we want that because, well, like, we. We're fallen and broken and we, like, really crave something to take it off our hands and be our God that we can create, you know, and control. And it's just not, you know, it's. It's always bad news. It just never works. I do have some hope that, like, what you said about it's always going to look weird. Like, it kind of is always going to look weird, you know, like, Jim Acosta tried this with this poor family of the dead, dead child, you know, and everyone immediately was like, you're a ghoul, you know, because this is. It's a ghoulish. It's a sort of, like, manifestly ghoulish thing to do. And I, you know, I'm sorry that Val Kilmer's daughter has lost her father in this tragic way. I think that people who grieve do all sorts of things, not all of them well judged, but this is a bad thing to do with your grief is to, like, kind of profit off of your father's reanimate image. Like, like some sort of weird occult puppet. Like, that's just, I think the wrong. The wrong path to go down, you know, turn back, stop.

[Emily]

Yeah. I mean, it's going to, I think, actually create a bigger market for things that are very real and that could go in different directions. That could go in the. However raw milk manifests in Hollywood streaming, I mean, that's where sneako comes from, is that people want to see something that's happening live because they trust production less. Just like they produce, they trust product turning corn into Doritos. Like, people have stopped trusting that processing. And so it's going to go somewhere very dangerous. But potentially for some people, it'll be good. Spencer. It's. It's reawakening the human in us.

[Spencer Clavin]

Well, it's like, learn to code turned out to be the worst advice in our lifetime. And we've had some pretty bad advice given to us. Yeah, you do. I mean, because it's really funny, right? Like, the coders created a giant input, output machine.

[Nick Freitas]

Machine.

[Spencer Clavin]

And the first thing they did is they turned around and they said to the poets, this will replace you. And my feeling was like, no, you. Like, your whole job is inputs and outputs, right? And you've never read a poem in your life, so how do you even know that this. And you know, you read the least cultural people who have maybe ever walked the face of the planet, right? These. These guys that have, like, systematically deprived themselves of literary sensibility, and they're like, look, it's spat out this machine, spat out the next great sonnet. It's like, you didn't even know what a sonnet was until five minutes ago. How do you even know? It's like me saying, look, Claude has solved quantum gravity. It's like, I don't even know how to fail at solving quantum gravity, right? It's like these people don't even know how to fail at making poetry. And they're telling us, like, this is going to be the use of this technologies to make art. I do have. I take heart in this. You know, there's a passage in Plato's Phaedrus which is about the invention of writing. So just to show you, this has been around forever.

[Emily]

Oh, yes. Plato was not really on board.

[Spencer Clavin]

Well, he was a total curmudgeon or like, he was like a half doomer, right? Because he was an early adopter and a doomer at the same time, which is kind of cool. Like, he was one of the first great written artists and one of the great critics of writing as a technology. And he imagines the inventor, the God who Invented writing, presenting it to the king and saying, look, I've created this great memory aid. And the king has this wonderful line. He says, oh, God, you know, the creator of a technology is not the same as the person who can judge the good and bad uses of it. Like, the people who make something thing have a certain. Are enamored of it. We're enamored of our creations, right? And so it's actually for the, the users to decide, like, what the right and wrong versions of this are. And I definitely think you're already starting to see Made without AI turn into a prestige label. Like, you know, my, my next book, which is kind of about this, it's

[Emily]

called Non GMO maybe.

[Spencer Clavin]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's raw milk, right? It's like I have this book coming out in February called A Way with Words, which is about human language and how it's different from AI language and kind of like, you know, how this stuff works. And in it, I say at some point, like, you have my guarantee that nothing in this book was written by AI, unless I'm quoting something that I, I got Grok to do so that I could use it as an example. And I, as I was writing that, I thought, wow, how funny. Like, that's actually, I'm just saying that because it's true, obviously, but like, that actually is a seal of authenticity now. Like, this is this sort of. I think people are seeking these human created curated experiences. They're already sick of screens. And when you create scarcity just in economics, right, the value of the thing goes up. Like we've created relative to all of the slop with which we've now flooded the zone. We've created a relative scarcity that attaches to human made art. And I do think that drives its value up. Like, that creates more, more like rarity and excitement around those sorts of things. And it's not a foregone conclusion. It means we have to then enter into that space and like, confidently educate people to recognize and admire the products of the human soul and to really just be enthusiastic again about what humans can do with their souls. The most refined, the liberal arts, right, have always been something you have to train yourself to love. And now it's like you have to train yourself to love them or be submerged under a tidal wave of gunk. Which is kind of a good sales pitch for, you know, humanists.

[Emily]

And if you really care about your soul, you can podcast. Spencer Clavin is associate editor over at the Claremont Review of Books. He's the co Host of Clavin's on the Culture. There's a new episode out today. Also author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World, one of my favorites. Spencer, thanks for staying up late. Appreciate it.

[Spencer Clavin]

Thanks, Emily.

[Emily]

It's a pleasure. So good, so good. All right, we're going to be back in just one moment, but first a quick break. You know this, I've mentioned it before. One of my favorite ways to relax at home, especially after a long show, you're hyped up. You've been talking to great guests, has been with Cozy Earth. Now, if you haven't tried their robes or their slippers yet, go ahead and do that. You're missing out if you haven't done it yet. Their robes are super, super soft. Perfect for those slow mornings or relaxing at night. Like I said, you gotta unwind. And if you're working later into the evenings, this is a great way to unwind. The fabric is really breathable. It's lightweight and it's incredibly comfortable. The kind of robe that you will put on and just right away feel better, feel more relaxed. Their slippers, those are pretty cool. They slip on right away instantly. Super easy. They have this plush shearling lining with supportive footbeds. So they're warm, comfortable and they're easy to wear around the house all day. Sometimes I do that with Mother Day's Mother's Day coming up. Cozy Earth makes an amazing gift and it's something that she'll actually use, which is good. Moms out there will tell you that's a great way to actually give a kid gift and something that she can appreciate every single day. It's built into her everyday life. So here's the best part. Cozy Earth backs everything with a 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty. You can try it completely risk free. Go to cozyearth.com and use my code EMILY for 20 off. That's cozyearth.com promo code EMILY for 20% off. And if you see the post purchase survey, please go ahead, mention you heard about Cozy Earth from the show. Show. So good, so good, so good.

[Spencer Clavin]

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[Nick Freitas]

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[Spencer Clavin]

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[Emily]

With the new Nespresso Vertuo up machine. From bold espressos to rich lattes, brew flavorful coffee hot or over ice in just three seconds. All it takes is a simple press to enjoy your perfect cup. Shop [e-mail]. all right, everyone, we're going to wrap the show up tonight with a media scandal handle, actually at a media watchdog publication. Now, if you're not a close media watcher, you might not know about media. It's a fairly small publication. It's been around for years. If you are in the media, you definitely know about media. If you ever say something on a podcast, something that they don't like, it gets written up right away. Now, of course, I follow media very closely because they write up what's happening, what people are saying across the media. These the interestingly, the founding editor of Mediaite is right now under suspension because of an AI based scandal. So Status, where Oliver Darcy, this is his publication Status, first noticed that there was something weird happening with this quote, one sheet publication that was supposed to be aggregating and sorting through all of the media newsletters into one place. Place. And Colby hall was the author. So we can put F12 up on the screen. Darcy posted last night, Scoop. Mediaite has suspended this founding editor, Colby hall after a series of instances we raised about significant errors and outright fabrications in his work. Now, Max Tanny, who's been on our show, had a long piece over at Semaphore about some of those errors. This is F14. We can toss up it up on the screen. This is bad. These what, what they found, what Semaphore found, what Oliver Darcy found is unreal. I mean, it's, it's very believable. Actually. Unreal is probably the wrong word, but essentially they're Colby Hall. Colby hall says that it was about the inputs going into an AI output and that caused misattributed quotes going in different directions in Status because Status had been. There was an attribution to Status in this one sheet newsletter that Status said was wrong because they knew they didn't write about it. So these are quotes and stories being attributed to publications that never published what they were alleged to have published. So of course, in the media people are going to pick up on this type of thing. So the one she, like I said, supposed to be aggregating what's happening across media newsletters. And Colby hall says he was putting into a spreadsheet different things that had been written about in the different publications that Colby hall was aggregating. So the claim here is that it was just those inputs being wrong and then the outputs because they're only as good as what gets put into them. Here's, here's a little bit of what hall said uses AI in a, quote, limited way and all quote written ideas, angles, summaries, takes and editorial judgments are mines are mine, he said. According to Max Tanny, the mistakes were the result of problems with his production process. Hall said he has a spreadsheet populated with dozens of newsletters organating the sheet with columns for source writer, topic angle, summary and takeaway. And he said recent errors quote, originated in the data entry entry process. Like many editors, I use AI in a limited way as part of my editorial workflow. Now the status misattribution that was caught on, that was caught this week was Tani reports, quote, the second time Mediate had misquoted Status. This is just Status. In February, Status said Mediaite falsely attributed quotes to the newsletter, claiming founder Oliver Darcy had written a column on US President Donald Trump posting a photo of the Obamas and as apes. And again, Colby hall says that happened because I, quote, entered my own misinterpretation into my sourcing note, as if it reflected what Status had actually published. These points don't totally make sense. I mean I I see where where hall is going that when you're doing really quick data entry, you see something on the website, you attribute it to Status and Oliver Darcy because it's on the website and you're doing data entry really quickly and then the output gets garbled. The the way that process actually happened is completely unclear now. Cnn, according to Semaphore's catch quote, has also experienced frustrating mis attribution issues. In Monday's edition of One Seat, Mediaite mixed up CNN media writer Brian Stelter's commentary on athletic reporter Diana Rossini with recent reporting about California Representative Eric Swalwell. Think about this. Seriously, think about this. One sheet wrote. Stelzer frames the Rossini story as a case study in the difference between Internet Whispers and investigative reporters reports. But Tani adds Stelter's comments about the difference between Internet whispers and investigative reports were in reference to recent reporting on Swalwell, not Rossini. Eric Swalwell is being accused of sexual assault. Your dumbass AI process cannot mix up over and over again people's quotes about serious topics, political topics, and the publication more broadly's coverage of those topics. It's not a casual error. That's obviously why Mediate has suspended Colby Hall. But for this to be so systematic over so many months, I mean Max reports earlier this year, one sheet also misattributed quotes from reliable sources, Press Gazette and Nieman Labs. POLITICO's Dasha Burns noted the tactical shift on Fox and Friends Monday morning. Brian Kilmeade reportedly called for Homan Tom Holman to be sent to Minneapolis. Throughout the course the of of the show, CNN's Brian Seltzer added that Maria Bartiromo's weekend criticism was key to Trump's thinking. The entire chain was misattributed, max Tanny writes. It was CNN's Brian Stelter that noted kill needs calls for home and to be sent to Minneapolis, while the Washington Post noted Bartiromo's criticism was key to Trump's thinking. So not only are you misattributing it to another author, you're actually taking someone else's work and attributing it to another offer. So you're attributing something to another author and depriving it. Depriving the original author of the scoop. Basically so insane that this seems to have gone on for so long that it was from a founding editor of the publication. And I have to say Colby hall is constantly guilty of these half baked, self absorbed columns that I would describe as just often making rudimentary points where you have this total mismatch between how basic and rudimentary the point is and the level of cockiness and confidence with which it's being conveyed. This is basic basic points being dressed up as like brilliant and like worthy of self aggrandizing writing one of those columnists that writes I every other sentence. And so I'm not entirely surprised by this, to be honest. I went back and looked at some recent Colby hall columns because I'm constantly thinking about that byline. Like I don't really know who Colby Hall. I don't. I'm not like super familiar with Colby. I don't know Colby Hall. But I have read Colby hall for many years and I'm constantly thinking about how annoying that byline is. And one of the recent stories was Hassan Piker is the left's Candace Owens and the press treats him like a rock star in the column starts by Colby hall writing I edit and write for political media criticism outlet and I've spent close to three decades tracking political narratives and the voices that carry them. Tiger gets mediate coverage when something he says breaks through into mainstream news, which it turns out happens fairly regularly but almost always for the same reason. He says ugly things on purpose. Period. For the clicks. Period. I didn't know the full extent of it until Monday when CNN ran a segment on the lead that I found generally interesting. Okay, everything in CNN's segment that Jake Tapper did on Hassan Piker, if you are even like barely on the Internet, would have been familiar to you as a media journalist. If your job is to cover the media, you're just like, openly admitted. You're to admitting you were totally, really out of the loop on what hall writes about in terms of this, quote, gap between what Piker says and how the media covers Hassan Piker. Now, there are all kinds of different problems with this column. That's just one example, but also a column how the Mueller report was never a hoax, it was a warning. That's another recent one. Megyn Kelly's outrage over Bad Bunny perfectly reveals white fragility. I mean, these are banger after banger, sometimes getting basic things or admitting to getting basic things wrong, and then just sometimes being so basic but also so arrogant that it's the most annoying combination you can imagine. So I guess Colby hall clearly needed a significant dose of humility and is going to get it. But for a media watchdog to let this go on so long from a founding editor, from somebody at the top of the publication and media, it's influential, by the way. It's a blog, but it influences the way journalists think about each other. It's a, it's a source of news for a lot of journalists. So the fact that this went on for so long is remarkable and I think a statement on how quickly AI is transforming the industry for the worse in many cases. I'm not saying there aren't good uses of AI, but nobody was prepared to catch this. It wasn't until people started noticing they were being written about incorrectly. I mean, God knows how other, how many other other incorrect facts are in these newsletters that weren't caught because they weren't, you know, easily recognizable because they had been attributed to one person or another. So this stuff is taking the industry by storm. And it took the industry months to catch up to the newsletter being full of misattributions and flatly incorrect information from a media watchdog's founding editor. Just incredible stuff. All right. We seem to be setting records every night for how long I can go, how long I can ramble. But Nick Freitas and Spencer Clavin were both so much fun, I went along with each of them. Thank you for being here. As a reminder, you can email me@emilyvilmaycare media.com Happy Hour is the audio only edition of the show. We air every Friday, where I talk to all of you via the questions you send in to emilyoulmaycare media.com I record those Thursday afternoons, so if you have questions, get them to me soon. Otherwise, I'll respond on next week's edition of the show. Subscribe if you haven't yet. It helps us out a lot and we'll see you back here soon with more Afterparty. School's almost out, and at Abercrombie Kids,

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