Crashed in the Canadian Wilderness | The Bonds Forged by Wapiti 402 | 4

Summary

Against The Odds: "Crashed in the Canadian Wilderness | The Bonds Forged by Wapiti 402 | 4"

Release Date: January 21, 2025

Introduction

In this gripping fourth and final episode of the series "Crashed in the Canadian Wilderness," host Cassie Depechel engages in a profound conversation with Carol Shabin, the daughter of Larry Shabin—the Alberta Housing Minister and one of the four survivors of the Wapiti Flight 402 crash on October 19, 1984. Carol, also the author of the compelling book Into the Abyss, delves deep into the harrowing events of that night, the enduring bonds formed among the survivors, and the lasting impact of the tragedy on their lives.

The Plane Crash and Immediate Aftermath

On the fateful evening of October 19, 1984, a small plane carrying ten individuals, including Larry Shabin, crashed in the remote wilderness of northern Alberta, Canada. Out of the ten passengers, only four survived: the pilot Eric Vogel, a politician (Larry Shabin), a police officer, and his prisoner, Paul Archambault. Despite their diverse backgrounds, these men united to survive the freezing night.

Cassie Depechel (00:09): "On October 19th, 1984, a small plane carrying 10 people crashed in the wilderness of northern Alberta in Canada. Four men survived... they leaned on each other to make it through the freezing night."

Carol Shabin's Awakening and Journey to Storytelling

At the age of 22, Carol Shabin was working as a journalist in Jerusalem when she first learned about the crash through a brief newspaper article. Discovering that her father, Larry, was one of the survivors, Carol became determined to uncover the full story, which remained untold for over two decades.

Carol Shabin (02:01): "Opposition Leader Killed in Alberta Plane Crash... Larry Shabin. My father."

Larry Shabin, burdened by the trauma of the crash, avoided discussing the incident for years. It wasn't until he faced a terminal cancer diagnosis that he opened up to Carol, urging her to document his experiences.

Carol Shabin (03:13): "I think it was his way of saying, this story needs to be told. Write the story."

Uncovering Friendship in Crisis

Carol was particularly intrigued by the unlikely friendship between Larry and Paul Archambault, a criminal and drifter who played a pivotal role in their survival. Despite their stark differences in social status, religion, and background, the ordeal erased all barriers, forging a deep bond between them.

Carol Shabin (04:53): "These survivors... from different walks of life... how these dividing lines of power and class and status were just erased that night."

Paul Archambault: The Reluctant Hero

Paul emerged as a national hero for his role in saving the lives of his fellow survivors. However, the sudden fame was overwhelming for him. He remained humble, attributing his actions to ordinary human behavior rather than heroism, which made adapting to his newfound status challenging.

Carol Shabin (06:54): "Paul... he had this sense of humility... he forgave earlier convictions... just did what anyone would do."

Maintaining Bonds Amidst Public Attention

Larry maintained a strong connection with Paul and the other survivors. In the summer of 1985, Paul visited Larry at his legislative office, highlighting the unchanged bond between them despite their different life paths post-crash.

Carol Shabin (08:14): "As soon as my dad found out who it was, he ushered him right in as if he was like royalty... a really joyous moment for my dad."

Survivors Reunited: The Official Inquest

Several months after the crash, all four survivors reunited at the official government inquest. The reunion was marked by genuine excitement and affection, underscoring the lasting bond formed through their shared trauma.

Carol Shabin (10:31): "There was genuine excitement and affection... they just look exuberant and so happy to be reunited."

Eric Vogel: From Pilot to Advocate

Eric Vogel, the pilot, faced significant legal battles following the crash. Struggling with guilt and shame, Eric chose to become an advocate for aviation safety, dedicating his life to preventing future tragedies despite personal and professional challenges.

Carol Shabin (11:44): "He became an outspoken advocate... volunteering at flight schools... showing up, doing what he can."

Scott Deschamps: A Life Transformed

Scott Deschamps, the police officer, underwent profound personal changes after the crash. He left the police force, pursued higher education, reconnected with family, and embraced a life enriched with new relationships and personal achievements.

Carol Shabin (17:08): "Scott... he wanted to make something of his life... he was happy, I'm content, I'm complete."

Paul Archambault’s Final Years and Legacy

Despite his heroism, Paul struggled with internal demons and societal judgments. His life tragically ended in 1990, leaving a lasting impact on those who knew him. Larry Shabin, who had become a father figure to Paul, was devastated by his loss.

Carol Shabin (21:20): "He was like a son... losing a son, albeit an itinerant son... tore him apart."

Reuniting After Two Decades: A Heartfelt Conclusion

In October 2004, exactly 20 years after the crash, Larry orchestrated a reunion with Eric and Scott in Vancouver. The meeting was filled with laughter, shared memories, and a deep sense of family, highlighting the enduring spirit of their bond.

Carol Shabin (29:41): "They were sitting like family, like long lost family... connection was irrefutable and undiminished."

Legacy of Compassion and Bridge-Building

Larry Shabin transitioned from a political career to philanthropy, focusing on bridging divides and supporting the homeless. His work with organizations like Homeward Trust reflected the core values reinforced by the crash—humanity and compassion above all else.

Carol Shabin (31:54): "We are, at our essence, humans, and the rest of it doesn't really matter."

Final Reflections and Continuing the Legacy

Before his passing in 2008, Larry read selected chapters of Carol's Into the Abyss to him, urging her to continue sharing their story. Carol has since taken up the mantle, maintaining annual correspondences with the surviving members to honor their shared history and resilience.

Carol Shabin (33:31): "It was his way of saying, keep going, Carol. After I'm dead, don't let this story die."

Book Recommendations: Extending the Story

In a special segment, Al Woodworth from Amazon Books shares her top book recommendations for fans of survival and adventure stories. She highlights titles like The Wager by David Grann, Dear Edward by Anne Napolitano, and Drowning by T.J. Newman, drawing parallels to the themes explored in Into the Abyss.

Al Woodworth (36:42): "We're looking for books that are unputdownable... books that you just can't stop thinking about."

Conclusion

This episode of Against The Odds masterfully intertwines personal narratives with broader themes of survival, friendship, and the human spirit. Through Carol Shabin's heartfelt recounting and insightful reflections, listeners gain a profound understanding of how a single tragic event can reshape lives, forge unbreakable bonds, and leave a lasting legacy of compassion and resilience.

Notable Quotes

• Carol Shabin (03:13): "I think it was his way of saying, this story needs to be told. Write the story."
• Carol Shabin (04:53): "These survivors... from different walks of life... how these dividing lines of power and class and status were just erased that night."
• Carol Shabin (06:54): "Paul... he had this sense of humility... he forgave earlier convictions... just did what anyone would do."
• Carol Shabin (17:08): "Scott... he wanted to make something of his life... he was happy, I'm content, I'm complete."

Resources

To delve deeper into the story of Wapiti Flight 402 and its survivors, visit Carol Shabin's book Into the Abyss.

Credits

• Host: Cassie Depechel
• Guest: Carol Shabin
• Producer: Polly Stryker
• Interview Producer: Peter Arcuni
• Audio Engineer: Sergio Enriquez
• Music: Scott Velasquez and 2K for Freeze On Sync Series
• Additional Producers: Lita Rosanna, Desi Blaylock, Ryan Lohr, Rachel Matlow
• Executive Producers: Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Stephanie Jens Marshall, Louie, Erin O'Flaherty

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Transcript

[Cassie Depechel]

Wondery subscribers can listen to against the.

[Carol Shabin]

Odds early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Cassie Depechel]

A quick note at the end of today's episode, we'll be joined by the folks from Amazon Books who are sharing their recommendations exclusively for fans of against the Odds. Stick around to find your next favorite book from wondery. I'm Cassie Depechel and this is against the Odds. On October 19th, 1984, a small plane carrying 10 people crashed in the wilderness of northern Alberta in Canada. Four men survived, the pilot, a politician, a cop, and his prisoner. Despite coming from very different walks of life, they leaned on each other to make it through the freezing night. But surviving the crash was just the beginning. Each of them faced their own struggles afterward as they tried to come to terms with what happened and figure out how to move forward with their lives. One of the survivors was Larry Shabin, the politician who was Alberta's housing minister at the time. More than two decades later, his daughter, Carol Shabin wrote about the crash and its aftermath in her powerful book, into the Abyss. Carol also worked with us as a consultant on this series, and she's here with us today. Hi, Carol.

[Carol Shabin]

Hi, Cassie.

[Cassie Depechel]

It was in the late evening on October 19, 1984, when Wapiti Flight 402 went down. You were only 22 years old at the time. Where were you when you first heard about the crash?

[Carol Shabin]

I was actually working as a journalist in Jerusalem. It was the strangest thing. Every morning I would look through the Jerusalem Post for things that were going on in the region. And this morning, it was two days after the crash, I opened the paper and there was this small item buried on an inside page with the headline, opposition Leader Killed in Alberta Plane Crash. And Alberta was my home. And so this was stunning to me. And as I read on through this tiny article, it talked about these four survivors who had spent the night huddled in deep snow and freezing cold temperatures. And then the name of one of the survivors appeared. Larry Shabin. My father.

[Cassie Depechel]

Your father. Larry was deeply affected by the crash, but in the months and years that followed, he avoided your questions about it. And it wasn't until 20 years later that he finally opened up to you. What do you think had changed? What made him ready to share his story?

[Carol Shabin]

I think there were a number of things going on. I mean, he died young, in his early 70s, of cancer, and I think he knew he was ill. And the other thing I think was interesting was I'd been working in the corporate world and thinking about quitting my job to write. And I never summoned the courage. And I think it was his way of saying, this story needs to be told. Write the story. And he opened up to me and started talking about the events of that night and its aftermath.

[Cassie Depechel]

It was around that time that you began doing research for your book into the Abyss. What was it about the story that grabbed you and made you want to really dive into it?

[Carol Shabin]

Outwardly, my dad had healed all his injuries, but he was changed. He was a change man. He was subdued. And then I started hearing about this drifter, this Paul Archambault, this criminal who had saved his life and the life of his Mountie escort, and that they were still in touch. And this idea kind of, you know, embedded itself in my mind about how bizarre it was that these friendships were emerg. And this idea of, you know, these survivors who are very different people, they were from different walks of life, different social status, different wealth and religions, and how all these dividing lines of power and class and status were just erased that night. And these friendships began to be forged. And this idea that in times of crisis, these differences can disappear.

[Cassie Depechel]

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[Cassie Depechel]

Let's go back to 1984 and the aftermath of the crash. Paul Archambeau became something of a national hero, known as the prisoner who saved the life of the cop who was escorting him and two others. How did Paul deal with all the media attention?

[Carol Shabin]

I think the incredible thing about Paul is he had this sense of humility. So he was taken straight out of the bush into custody and then put on a small plane to fly up to face this charge that he was originally on the plane going to deal with. And the judge exonerated him. He forgave these earlier kind of convictions for stealing a car and an alleged theft of $10,000 from a golf course that he'd worked at. And he went on to just become this national hero. But it was something that he wasn't really comfortable with. He said, you know, everyone started staring and that kind of blew him away, all this attention. And he said, I just did what anyone would do. And it also was, I think, a little tough on him because he said, one minute nobody cared who I was and the next minute he was something great. So I think he really grappled with that. I mean, can you imagine? He was a drifter, had been homeless, and all of a sudden he's a national hero. So I think it was a tough adjustment for him, but he kept his equanimity. He never got big headed about it.

[Cassie Depechel]

Your father stayed in touch with his fellow survivors, especially Paul, who showed up at Larry's office in the summer of 1985. What was that visit like?

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, my gosh. I remember my dad telling me about it. He was like a kid. He came home and he said, you'll never guess who came to visit me in the legislature. And it was Paul. And to imagine this building which is this old stately house, like center of power. And my dad, he was at that point a pretty high powered. He'd moved up from housing to economic development and chair of the finance committee. He was really kind of right up at the top echelons of power. And there were these anterooms with all the executive assistants and secretaries and this and that. And I remember talking to his executive assistant later and he said, Paul came in and he was this scruffy guy in a jean coat and he was just disheveled. And he said, yeah, I'm here to see Larry. And they were all looking at him like, what the heck? And as soon as my dad found out who it was, he ushered him right in as if he was like royalty and the doors closed. And I just remember my dad coming home and saying how well he was doing and he was short on money, he didn't want money, but dad said I gave him money anyway. And he said, he's engaged and he's getting married and he invited your mom and I to the wedding. I mean, it was this really joyous moment for my dad.

[Cassie Depechel]

Oh. As you mentioned, your book really captures how in the fight to survive, things like status and wealth become irrelevant. When Paul showed up at Larry's office, he saw your father as just another survivor. How did returning to regular life reveal or shift the power dynamic between them?

[Carol Shabin]

I think, Cassie, what is remarkable is it didn't really shift. There was a bond forged between those men that night. And they became brothers, they were kin, they were family. And there was never a closed door. There was never a sense of lesser or greater. So that kind of elemental erasure of power and difference. What a utopia. That didn't go away. They'd helped each other through something that was really, truly life changing and it wouldn't be affected at any point into the future of their relationships.

[Cassie Depechel]

It wasn't until several months later, after the crash, that all four survivors were reunited at the official government inquest. What was it like for them to see each other again?

[Carol Shabin]

I think there was just genuine excitement and affection. And even though for Eric, it was a hugely stressful time, I mean, he was in the hot seat in this inquiry. You can see the four men standing together in a photo and they're grinning, they're shoulder to shoulder, and they just look exuberant and so happy to be reunited. So this was something, you know, I think they'd looked forward to. And that bond was really apparent. It's palpable in this photo of their reunion.

[Cassie Depechel]

I was gonna say there's a photo of the four of them and they're all smiling and seem really happy to be with each other. And that was when they took the photo, I'm guessing, right?

[Carol Shabin]

It was. And, you know, dad and Paul are smoking together like they had in the dark of night in the bush. It was just these conn just bloomed.

[Cassie Depechel]

All over again in the aftermath. Eric, the pilot, faced a number of legal battles. Wapiti Aviation and Transport Canada were also sued for negligence. But beyond his legal troubles, Eric struggled with deep feelings of guilt and shame. How did he come to terms with what happened and specifically his role in the crash?

[Carol Shabin]

I think Eric's heroic as well. You know, he could have just quietly slipped out of the scene, but he decided he was gonna fight to change the system that had been at the heart of what caused the failure and caused the crash. And so he became an outspoken advocate, and he would volunteer, he would go to flight schools, and he'd say, let me talk to your pilots. And he was advocating for safety everywhere. And I think his whole life he became this kind of champion for. For safety. His life wasn't easy. I mean, it ended his flying career. He struggled to find jobs in aviation, but he was really on the margins. And his. Even though his dream of making the majors, like becoming a major airline pilot like his dad, had been dashed, he still said, I'm going to speak out. I'm going to show up. I'm going to do what I can.

[Cassie Depechel]

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[Carol Shabin]

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[Al Woodworth]

And Mindy, can you believe we have.

[Carol Shabin]

Our very own wow in the world stem toys?

[Cassie Depechel]

I know.

[Carol Shabin]

And look, they even have our faces on them. Look at little us. Guy Razzie, it's so bonkerballs.

[Al Woodworth]

Aw, you're using my catchphrase.

[Carol Shabin]

Grown ups, we are so, so excited to share our wow in the world stem toys with the future scientists in your life. And now you can find our toys.

[Al Woodworth]

At select Walmart locations near you and.

[Carol Shabin]

[e-mail] from the ultimate high flying air rocket to the light up terrarium, there's something for every Wowzer in your world.

[Cassie Depechel]

To play and tinker with.

[Carol Shabin]

Wow in the world Stem toys, now available at Walmart. That's it. And now let's get back to the wow.

[Cassie Depechel]

For your book, you relied on several first person accounts of the crash, including those of Eric Vogel, the pilot, and Scott Deschamps, the cop. A lot of years had gone by. How willing were they to talk to you?

[Carol Shabin]

Well, Eric was incredible because it took me a long time to track Eric down. And when I finally reached him, he was living, strangely an hour away from where I was in Vancouver. And he said, just come out, come out and visit me. And I was so nervous. And I remember driving up into this kind of farmland and there was a rancher and there was this really Statuesque. He was 6 foot 4, this big guy standing there in his gumboots. And I was all kind of dressed up. City girl. But immediately he just made me feel at home. And what was stunning to me, Cassie, was the first words he said to me were, I've been waiting years for you. Oh, I mean, he was 24. He was just a kid, just two years older than me at the time of the crash. And he had carried the guilt of these six people who had died. It had been on his conscience and he had just been waiting to unburden himself. It was an incredible moment for me.

[Cassie Depechel]

Yeah, he seemed like he took on a lot during that whole experience for everyone.

[Carol Shabin]

I think he spent the rest of his life atoning and could never really forgive himself. And I think he was judged harshly as well. Even though he was in an untenable situation. He didn't want to fly, the weather was bad. Imagine 24 and all of this on your conscience.

[Cassie Depechel]

Yeah. And Scott, how willing was he to talk with you?

[Carol Shabin]

Scott was a little less willing. It took me a long time to convince him. And I think for Scott, he was one of these black and white, no nonsense, tough cops. And this near death experience had been a spiritual awakening for him. So I don't think he wanted to talk about it. I mean, I just kept at him and I think over time he opened up and felt too, like, you know, there was something to offer there. Both men in the end were very generous with their stories.

[Cassie Depechel]

Scott Deschamps made several big life changes following the crash. He left the police force, he returned to university, he traveled. How did the crash change his outlook on life and influence his decisions? Moving Forward.

[Carol Shabin]

As I said, Scott was this very by the book guy. And I think so much of his life shifted. I mean, he did come up with this bucket list. So he did all these things. He wanted to go to college. He went on to get a master's. I mean, he and Eric, they were both men out of work, changing careers. They lived together for a time, which was remarkable, and then headed out and hiked along the west coast trail in the wilderness together. Scott found a sister. He knew that he had a half sister somewhere in South Africa, he found her. It was the last thing on this bucket list of 25 items. And he had decided before the crash he didn't want kids. But he went on to marry, have a family, come connected to this larger family across the globe, and really inhabit this life that had these really elemental values. And he was happy. And the last time I talked to him, he said, I'm content, I'm complete.

[Cassie Depechel]

And you said how? Eric and Scott were close. How did their lives continue to intersect?

[Carol Shabin]

Well, the two men stayed in touch. I mean, when I went to see Eric, one of the strange things was in the corner of this ramshackle kitchen was this giant bow butcher block table. And I was like, wow, that's massive. He goes, you know, it's Scott's. We moved it in as young men 20 years earlier. It still sat in the center of his hearth. And to me, that was emblematic of these men being connected. They were just there for each other.

[Cassie Depechel]

And they're still friends to this day.

[Carol Shabin]

Right to this day.

[Cassie Depechel]

Oh, my God, what a strong friendship. So you mentioned he became an advocate for aviation safety. What else did Eric do in the years following the crash?

[Carol Shabin]

Well, he tried to return, as I said, to flying. It was sporadic. He started kind of long haul trucking to try and make ends meet. He had three kids, and then he started to work as a firefighter. He thought, what else can I do where I can serve? And worked for the next 25 years in that career and became actually known as Mr. Safety on the job. He was the guy everyone could rely on.

[Cassie Depechel]

And so after the crash, your father's career continued to soar, but Larry ultimately chose to leave politics. How do you think the crash influenced the choices he made in the years that followed?

[Carol Shabin]

I think my dad, the one thing he said to me at the point when he decided to talk about the crash is he says, I am always looking at the extra years that I was given that people like my colleague and others from our town weren't. I mean, they passed Away. He was given this time, and he was always questioning whether he was making the best use of the years that he had been given, as if they were a gift that he couldn't take for granted. And I know in terms of politics, he'd been in there a long time, going on 15 years. There had been a recession. I remember him telling me people had looked for handouts. You know, they wanted the government to solve their problems. And yet here was this drifter, Paul Archambault, who never asked for a dime, who pulled himself up by his bootstraps. So I think my dad wanted to do something more meaningful with his life. And he went on to have this incredible philanthropic career. And I like to think that this whole theme of, you know, the dividing lines. I mean, he was Muslim, and it didn't matter if he was Muslim, the other men were Christian or what they were, if they had faith or not. But he started to build bridges, especially, especially after 9, 11, to bring people together across religious divides and other divides. And it was incredible work. And I think he was more gratified by that work than by his political career.

[Cassie Depechel]

And speaking of Paul, his life seemed to improve after the crash, but in the end, he could never escape his internal prison. He died in the winter of 1990 at just 33 years old. Shortly before his death, Paul. Paul made a surprise visit to his former police escort. What did Scott tell you about their meeting?

[Carol Shabin]

Scott was, first of all, he was surprised. He was living on the west coast, two hours flight away from where Paul had been. And he said that he was in his apartment in Vancouver. And the buzzer rang and he answered. And this voice said, it's Paul. And he said, paul, who it was, this was that strange. And then he let him in. And Paul was, by then had lost his job in Grand Prairie and things had changed for him. But he was working on a traveling midway with a carnival. And Scott said that he'd aged a lot. He'd had this bad limp because he'd been in a serious car accident and very few possessions as always. But he didn't ask anything of Scott. And Scott said he took him for a meal and they sense of humor and humility and all those things about Paul were still very much present. And he also said that Paul was upset because he needed these work boots for his job and he didn't have any. So they went shopping and Scott bought him some work boots and bought him some clothes. And he said to him, look me up again anytime. But that was the last he heard from Him.

[Cassie Depechel]

Oh, that was so nice of Scott to do, though. By the time Paul died, your father had lost touch with him. How did Larry handle the news of his death?

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, my dad was devastated. I think that's when I realized that Paul was more than a friend. He was like a son. And my dad, I think, because he believed in Paul, had become a little bit like the father that Paul never had. I mean, Paul never really knew his father, and his stepfather was abusive. And my dad just always had time for him, had faith in him. And so I think. I think it was like losing a son, albeit an itinerant son. When my dad didn't hear from Paul, he worried for his safety. But when word came that his body had been found alongside the railway track near Grand Prairie, I think it tore him apart. He disappeared the summer after he had visited Scott, like that fall, because he had a poppy, which was a sign of Veterans Day in Canada, on his lapel, which would have meant it was late fall, and he wasn't discovered until the spring. And no one. No one had reported him missing. And I think that was what was most heartbreaking.

[Cassie Depechel]

In writing your book, it was a challenge for you to find information about Paul. You even placed ads in Canadian newspapers. Eventually, you discovered a manuscript he wrote. What can you tell us about it?

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, my gosh, Cassie. It was like the Holy Grail.

[Cassie Depechel]

Yeah.

[Carol Shabin]

So one of the early visits, when Paul came to see my dad, my dad said, he's writing a book about his experience of the crash, and he's titled it. They called me a hero. And I remember dad saying I asked him if I could read it, and he said, no, it's not done yet. But I knew that this manuscript was out there. But, I mean, years had passed, decades in fact, and this man had died homeless. You know, it was an impossible task. And Paul was the one person I had met. And to me, he was the key figure in this whole kind of story. And I remember bemoaning the fact to a neighbor that there's no way I'm gonna find this manuscript. And she says, well, just put an ad in the paper. And so I took out two ads. One in the city where he'd last lived and one where he'd grown up. And probably two weeks later, an aunt called. She was in eastern Canada. I got on a plane, I flew across the country. It became obvious we spent a couple hours together, that she wasn't really in touch with Paul. But she said, you know, I'm in touch with his brother. And I was Just like it was a Hail Mary pass. I thought, there's no way. And then about six months later, my phone rang and I remember I'm in my office, I'm trying to finish the book, and there's this huge missing piece, which is Paul to me, the hero of everything. And I answer the phone and this voice says, I'm Richard Archambault, Paul's brother. And I asked about this manuscript and I held my breath and he said, yeah, I think it's here in a box somewhere. And it was like a miracle to me.

[Cassie Depechel]

So you got this manuscript. Is there a part of the manuscript that sticks out to you?

[Carol Shabin]

I had a sense, Cassie, from the other survivors, of who he was, but like, I didn't have his insides, you know, I didn't have what was incredible when I read his words. He was funny and he had dreams and he was full of pathos and he really wanted to make something of his life. And there was one excerpt that absolutely took me apart near the end of this manuscript, and I'd love to read it.

[Cassie Depechel]

Yeah, we'd love to have you read that.

[Carol Shabin]

I'm amazed at still being alive because I've had a few bad accidents in my lifetime and now this. It's really mind boggling. Since the accident, I've been having some wild dreams. Dreams of falling and waking once I hit the ground. I'd wake up stretched out straight and stiff, just vibrating and frightened. I'd have dreams of leaving the planet at a high speed, watching the earth get smaller.

[Cassie Depechel]

That is so beautiful. He could have been a writer.

[Carol Shabin]

He could have been a writer. He could have been so many things. And I think this is one of the things for me too, Cassie, is like, we often really overlook the hard heroic among us. We don't give them credit for having these rich lives, for having these dreams. And to me, he epitomized what we often overlook to our peril in our society.

[Cassie Depechel]

You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries. And each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave Totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries. Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries should be your new go to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

[Al Woodworth]

In the first half of the 20th century, one woman changed adoption in America. What was once associated with the shame of unmarried mothers became not only acceptable, but fashionable. But Georgia Tann didn't help families find new homes out of the goodness of her heart. She was stealing babies from happy families and selling them for profit. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US History. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. And in our latest series, a young adoption worker moves to Memphis, Tennessee and becomes one of the most powerful women in the city. By the time her crimes are exposed, decades later, she's made a fortune and destroyed hundreds of families along the way. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today.

[Cassie Depechel]

In October 2004, exactly 20 years after the crash, Larry organized a reunion with Eric and Scott in Vancouver. By then, your dad was almost 70 years old. What compelled Larry to want to see them again?

[Carol Shabin]

Well, my dad was dying, you know, and it was time they were in touch. They had stayed in touch by email, and I think he felt like it was important. It was something he wanted to do before the end of his life was to be reunited with these men.

[Cassie Depechel]

And how did the reunion go?

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, my gosh. I think, well, first of all, it was in Vancouver because that's where Scott and Eric lived. And my dad flew in and as he tells it, they were standing at the bottom of the escalator when he came down to the arrivals hall and just grinning like fools. And then they went off and had a meal close by. And it was just, he said they were sitting like family, like long lost family. And they caught up on how this had impacted their lives, how their lives had unfolded, what they had done with that precious time. And all of them had made something really remarkable. This tragedy had been a crucible to really transform their lives. And then he said, they talked about what they had wanted on the hillside as they thought they were dying. Their last wishes. And I remember my dad talking about how Paul had wanted a joint, and they laughed about it and how he was kind of in the room with them even though he had passed away. I mean, just the feeling of connection, I think, was irrefutable and undiminished.

[Cassie Depechel]

You mentioned that at the reunion, they laughed about how Paul wanted a joint that night in the woods that he was in the room with them. How did they remember Paul?

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, there was such affection.

[Cassie Depechel]

Yeah.

[Carol Shabin]

One of the things that Paul, he was unflappable. I mean, not only was he uninjured by some miracle, but he never stopped moving or trying to help. They talk about in the midst of their darkest moments that night, he'd be cracking jokes, like, terrible jokes, but he was the kind of spirit that breathed life into them, breathed hope into them. And, you know, he was unchanged. He was authentically in his spirit, this beautiful, generous, heroic person that had been kind of unrecognized and not given his due. And I really think they were the men who gave him his due, who saw him for who he was.

[Cassie Depechel]

It's clear that even before the crash, your father was an exceptional communicator who treated everyone with respect and compassion. What lessons from the crash do you think helped deepen his ability to work with people?

[Carol Shabin]

For him, it wasn't about power. I mean, he had been all powerful. I mean, had legions of people doing his bidding when he was a senior government official. And I think one of the things that was interesting to him, too, when he returned, a lot of these people who had been hanging around him just kind of disappeared. But this relationship with these men was unchanged. And also, he really felt these kind of core values, that we are, at our essence, humans, and the rest of it doesn't really matter. And there's one more thing that I didn't find out about until much later, when my mom told me that she was going to collect this award in my dad's name. He volunteered for an organization called Homeward Trust. And that organization was all about getting homes for the homeless. And I can't help but think that my dad thought of Paul and what Paul's life would have been like if he had been housed and given some dignity. I mean, my dad got a lot of awards and a lot of honors and accolades, but I think that award in his name from Homeward Trust is probably one of his proudest achievements. Wow.

[Cassie Depechel]

That's really beautiful. And it just comes to show how the people around us in these darkest moments, even of our life, can really shape Our inner workings throughout life in a beautiful way. In 2008, your father was diagnosed with cancer and passed less than five months later at the age of 73. I understand that before he passed away, you read him a couple rough chapters of your book. What did he think of it?

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, my gosh. You know, he was in the hospital, and I thought this was probably the last time I would see him. And I said, dad, what can I bring? And he said, bring that manuscript. And I just sat by his bed and I read. I read to him from that book. And it was this incredible moment, and it was his way of saying, keep going, Carol. After I'm dead, don't let this story die. And, yeah, I think it meant the world to him. And I'm kind of sad he never got to read it, but without him, I don't think it ever would have found the light of day.

[Cassie Depechel]

Your dad used to send his fellow survivors an email every October 19th to let them know they were in his thoughts and to remind them of how lucky they were to be alive. Do you know what Eric and Scott do now to mark the anniversary?

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, yeah, I know they're in touch. I mean, Eric, he's retired now, but he would just say every year on that day, on the date of the crash, I would just take the day off, you know, as kind of a gift to himself. I didn't find out until the reunion, and I was talking to my dad after that. This was a ritual that the men had. Every October 19th, they would write to each other and exchange this kind of correspondence, find out how their lives were going. I know in the case of Eric, he would tell my dad, you know, you have been such an inspiration in my life, and I want to make you proud because you've shown such faith in me. So there was this kind of interaction, and after my dad died, I just picked up the torch. And so every October 19th, I will send Eric and Scott, the two remaining survivors, a note saying, I'm glad they're still alive. And thanking them. Thanking them for having the kind of generosity and courage to share their personal story with me.

[Cassie Depechel]

Well, thank you, Carol, for sharing your father's story. And thank you so much for taking the time to. To speak with us today.

[Carol Shabin]

Oh, it's been my honor, Cassie. Thank you so much.

[Cassie Depechel]

Now, if you're a fan of against the Odds and looking for even more thrilling survival stories, this next segment is for you. Do you ever come to the end of a great story and wonder what to start next? Well, you're in luck because Al Woodworth, managing editor for Amazon Books, is here to help. Every year, Al and her colleagues read thousands of books to help people discover their next favorite story. Today, Al joins Against the Odds to share her recommendations for the books she thinks you won't be able to put down. Welcome, Al.

[Al Woodworth]

Thanks, Cassie. Excited to be here to talk about books with you.

[Cassie Depechel]

So you read a ton of books for your job and pick your favorites to recommend. What's one thing you look for in a book that you're going to spotlight?

[Al Woodworth]

So we're looking for books that are unputdownable, the books that sort of stick in your head and you want to recommend to everybody that you know, whether you're entertained by them, whether you learn from them. We're looking for books that you just can't stop thinking about and don't want to stop talking about.

[Cassie Depechel]

I know you've got a few adventure survival books to suggest for our listeners. Let's start with nonfiction.

[Al Woodworth]

So if you're looking for another heart pounding true story of survival, but this time on the high seas, I'd recommend the Wager by David Grann. He's the author of the bestselling Killers of the Flower Moon and the Lost City of Z. And in the Wager he tells a gripping story of an 18th century ship that is bound for South America and the shipwreck, mutiny and survival that ensues. This is a heart pounding read. You can almost feel this salt spray on your skin as you learn about this cast of characters and wonder, will they make it or not?

[Cassie Depechel]

Okay, now what's on your fiction list?

[Al Woodworth]

I've got two recommendations for your listeners. The first is Dear Edward by Anne Napolitano. It was one of our favorite books of 2020 and it was adapted into an Apple Te. This is a book that has deep emotions. It'll make you want to cry, but it'll also make you want to talk about it with everybody that you know. This is a story of a young boy who is the sole survivor of a plane crash. And it's the aftermath of that plane crash and how he reckons with that tragedy. I think we learned that the story is about survival and how it extends far beyond the actual tragedy. This is a book, as I said, that will make you feel deeply and it's one that I would definitely recommend you read and read with a box of tissues. And then the second novel I would recommend is for our thriller fans out there. So this is a book by T.J. newman called Drowning. It's an Edge of your seat thrill ride. It's equal parts disaster story and thriller and there's a lot of heart and a lot of heroics in this book. It's bad enough to be a passenger on a plane that has to make an emergency landing on water. Now imagine a scenario where all but a dozen passengers make it down that yellow slide before the plane doors have to be sealed again. Then imagine the plane starting to sink to the ocean floor. This is a book that kept me up all night reading. My hands got sweaty while reading it and I was so nervous for these characters. It's a great book and one that you won't be able to put down that I know your listeners will love, especially if they liked into the Episode.

[Cassie Depechel]

Before we go, what's something you love about into the Abyss?

[Al Woodworth]

So we named it an editor's pick when it came out in 2014 and I think it's really a timeless story that whatever our divisions may be, they don't matter. We're all human and we all need each other. It doesn't hurt that it keeps your heart beating fast as you learn how this unexpected group of strangers survive. And I think that's really what it's all about. It's. It's heart pounding and it makes you feel and it's a shocking true story which kept me turning the pages.

[Cassie Depechel]

Elle, thank you so much for sharing these book suggestions with us today.

[Al Woodworth]

Thanks so much for having me, Cassie.

If you like against the odds, you can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Cassie Depechel]

This is the fourth and final episode of our series, Crashed in the Canadian Wilderness. Thanks so much to my guest and our series consultant, Carol Shabin. To learn more about this story, check out Carol's book Into the Abyss. And thanks to Alex Woodworth for sharing her book recommendations. To read book reviews, learn about new releases and explore author interviews, visit amazonbookreview.com I'm your host Cassie Depechel. This episode was produced by Polly Stryker. Our senior interview producer is Peter Arcuni. Audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Original theme music by Scott Velasquez and 2K for freeze on Sync series produced by Lita Rosanna. Managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Senior managing producer is Ryan Lohr. Senior producer is Rachel Matlow. Executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Stephanie Jens Marshall, Louie and Erin o' Flaherty for Wondery.

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