A (3:59)

I think it's. It makes me think of that Tony Robbins quote, that sort of money and fame, and all those things are just like magnifying glasses so that anything that we kind of make bigger, it sort of shows up all the little things that lie underneath it much more clearly. And there really is this thing that's so real of you. Focus on a shiny character, like, I want to make X amount, you know, a month or something. And you think that's going to be the solve of all your problems, but the universe doesn't really let us. It doesn't let us off the hook of doing the inner work, which is why I think this book is so amazing, because money tends to have, like, a cold energy. We think about this thing as if it's, like, outside of ourselves, and it just has this control over ourselves. What it seems to me you're doing is you're bringing it. You're making it very personal and very reflective of the inner landscape.

B (4:50)

Yes. And I'd love for you to do this exercise. So imagine, Jenna, you're. I think you're in a hotel room right now. Imagine a person Walked into the room right now, and we're not doing this interview, but just you have free time and a person walks in the room and the person is the representation of money. This person is money. And money walks in the room. How would you react, respond, or feel? What would you do or say or not do or say when money walks in the room right now and it represents the relationship of money in your life? Someone close to me once said, when I asked them this a couple months ago, I said, if money walks into a restaurant, you're eating in a restaurant, what would you do? And they were, they're in their, their late twenties and they said, I would run to the bar to hide from money. Then I would start gossiping about money behind its back. Then when they came up to me, I would act like I was their friend. Then I would use and abuse them when I needed to use money, then I would ghost them and I would not reply to them if they reached out to me to check in on me. And I go, man, that sounds like a really unhealthy relationship with money. Imagine if that was a relationship with a person in your life. What would you need to do to have a healthier relationship with that person? And this is all about just understanding the relationship we have with money. Again, if it. I feel like money is very intimate in our lives, whether we know it or not. I feel like there's a lot of emotion tied to money. So some people have a lot of peace and they feel like they are freely able to spend it, freely able to receive it, and they feel gratitude and abundance when it comes to them. And when it leaves them. And others, they hoard it. They hoard it and they look at it all the time to make sure it's still there. Others don't look at their bank account at all and they just don't even want to pay attention to it. They don't want to know. They just want to spend freely and not worry about how much money they have or how much they're in debt or how many credit cards they have. They don't want to. I don't want to look at it. I just want to make money and I want to spend it and not worry about it. And whatever you are, anywhere of those are in the middle somewhere, you have just a specific relationship with money. And there's nothing good, bad, right or wrong. It's just, is that relationship making you feel peaceful and abundant? Do you feel wealthy? Do you feel full? Do you feel free in that relationship with money? If you Don't. It's just something to be aware of and notice and reflect on and say, okay, is this supporting me and becoming more free as a human being? Or in some way, is this blocking me? Is it blocking my abundance? Is it blocking my inner peace? If so, why do I want to continue to allow any relationship to block my abundance? And when we can learn to have healthier conversations with money internally and externally, when we can learn to create boundaries with money, be more responsible with our relationships and money and all these different things, we can start to feel more at peace and in control of our money, as opposed to money controlling us.

A (8:00)

I love what you said about how it's just about exploring the conversation that we're having with it and sitting and, like, leaning into the feelings that we're having. Because I think one of the reasons why we don't want to do that is somehow that we think we're the only person who has these weird stories around it. So it's almost like we have shame about the fact that we feel that, so we don't even want to look at it. Whereas you're kind of universalizing. I'm feeling like a lot of comfort in. If I was listening to this conversation, especially me, 15 years ago, just that, oh, it doesn't mean that I'm like, super flawed more than other people. It's just. It's one of the rites of passages you have to do that is living on this earthly plane. So there's. There's real. Sort of like there's a hand holding to what you're saying. I feel.

B (8:44)

Yeah. And I just want people to really assess their. Their own money beliefs. And we all have a money story. You know, I have different memories that were positively charged and maybe more emotionally negatively charged. Wounded charges from my past around money where I used to steal things and other people stole money from me, where I used got in trouble with things around money, where my parents argued and fought around money where we felt like we never had enough and there was anxiety and stress tied to that relationship and those memories. And so that story, that money story, created a certain level of a belief inside of me every single day and year up until I was able to notice the belief. And those beliefs, as you know, Jenna, they. They influence our behaviors. How we think and how we feel is a belief that then we act in accordance with that behavior of belief. And so if we're living in. I'm not worthy of. Of money, I'm not deserving of it. I don't understand it. I don't want to pay attention to it. That's going to continue to show up. And if more money comes to us, it's only going to amplify those beliefs and that anxiety within us. It's going to create more of that, not less of it, not going to give us relief. And so it's just, you know, the whole part of the process in the book is to understand and uncover those money wounds within you. The money story. So you can take yourself to money therapy. And when you can take yourself to money therapy, you can start to transform your inner world, your emotional nervous system to create peace and healing around the past wounds of money. We do this in intimacy, in relationships with our parents, with exes, with friends who maybe we had breakups or hurts from. We. We heal these wounds so we can set ourselves free in relationships. That's why we go to therapy. Why not do this with money as well? Why not set ourselves free around money so we can actually be abundant and prosperous? Having all the money in the world, having a multimillion dollar net worth, but lacking inner peace is not freedom.

A (11:01)

Yeah.

B (11:02)

We must assess our own story, our own wounds, and learn to heal those wounds.

A (11:08)

That's really, really beautiful. And I, I knew it. It was. It's a spiritual book in disguise, truly. Because, you know, there's a. There's almost like a. Sometimes I feel like these things kind of get split where it's like, okay, the 10 things. And there's no shade on either of these things. Right. But there's either like the sort of strategy of how to live in the world. And there's also like, you know, heal yourself and whatever. And that's really the wisdom. But what's nice here is that. And I think this is how people are thirsty for this more and more is like how you bridge those two worlds. Because people who only used to want material success are now realizing they want kind of some kind of inner connection to spirit. And people who want to dive deep into that also, like, but I want to live in the world and I want to be successful and support myself and everything. So this is really such a lovely melding of the two principles. And I'm so curious when you were talking about the nervous system, because I think that's also a key thing, is like the looking at things. You're right, it doesn't. It does induce anxiety, fear, shame for a lot of people. So I want to talk to you and ask you about the component that is like, when you're healing, how are you supporting yourself to feel okay. To even go on this journey, which, you know, it's not in the lexicon, people don't talk about it. Like, at least with relationships we have like a bit of a head start, quote unquote. But when it's just you and some, it's not even with somebody else, it's just you and your money. Like, how do you feel supported in that? Like, what are some things that people can do to feel like it's safe to even go on this journey?

B (12:41)

Well, I think the first thing is to assess your, like I said, assess your money story and really write down the different wounds and triggers that cause you to feel anxious, avoidance, insecure, unworthy in your nervous system, in your heart and in your body. And when you can write these things down. So write down all the memories where you felt wounded or triggered or caused any harm or pain. And it could just be simply, oh, my parents argued around money, or I just heard them say these things. Write those things down. Write down those memories. What are those beliefs that start to built in within your nervous system? So when you have that, then you can have a starting point. Okay, in the book we have a whole section where you create your money personality style. You take an assessment and you get your own style based on your story and the wounds and also the positive things. You naturally tend to lean into one or two different styles of money money personality. And when you understand these two things, your story and your history and your personality style around money, then you can start to understand why you execute your strategy around money the way you do, why you spend the way you do, why you save the way you do, why you go into debt, why you are careless, whatever it might be, you start to understand it. Once you can understand your whole package, you can create awareness. As you know, awareness is the key to everything. So we can start to make shifts and changes. And when we have awareness and we start to integrate these lessons and start overcoming our old self by becoming the new self, we can take these courageous little acts on a daily basis to serve something we've never done before and say, okay, this is scary, but I'm going to start doing things this way. I'm going to start having conscious conversations around money with people I've never had before. I'm going to start looking at my bank account and setting things up automatically to serve my future self. I'm going to start doing these things to give me more peace. And it's not about figuring it all out overnight. It's about one of these daily courageous little acts that can support us in creating the safety inside of us with those new actions. And through that process, I feel like you can create that inner peace that's.

A (14:53)

Really beautiful and I love how tangible it is because, you know, sometimes you give people the sort of like platitude, it's like, oh, okay, accept your story and heal. But then it's like, how, like this is granular, it's ready. And I don't know if you follow or track astrology, but I feel like the timing of this book coming out is pretty incredible because we're in a six week Venus retrograde right now. And a retrograde is a reassessment and Venus's values. So I feel, and I also feel this anecdotally, just when I kind of put my finger in the air, that people are reassessing what actually is rewarding to them out of what we can get out of life. Right? Like, I don't know, I just feel like people who used to dream of owning five homes and now like, I just want the one home and I want to be able to rent or you know, stuff like that. So I'm also curious just from, you know, how many people you speak to and also your own journey, how as you made more money, did different things start to feel less attractive? Thing goals of things you wanted to buy or use.

B (16:00)

You know, it's interesting, when I was kind of learning how to make money, I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half. And after that my sister finally said, you either need to pay rent or you need to leave. And so I did what any younger youngest brother would do of a family of four. I asked my older brother, can I stay at your place for free? Because we never really want to like, have to do the hard work. It's, you know, you have to really want to do it or you have to be forced into it in some way. And when my sister, you know, she graciously let me stay with her for a year and a half for free, she fed me, you know, she treated me like a little baby essentially, you know, I was a 24 year old man. And when she kicked me out lovingly, my brother was like, okay, you can come stay with me, but you have to pay $250 a month. And at the time in 2009, you know, I had no money. That seemed like a lot of money for me. It was just like, what am I going to do? How do I figure out how to make money? So it's, it gave me an obstacle I needed to learn to overcome. And it wasn't so daunting. Like, you need 5,000amonth. Right away, it was a $250 a month. Okay, let me figure this out. So I wasn't like, how do I become a millionaire in three months? I was just like, how do I make a couple hundred bucks a month to get to the next step? And after that, I was there for six months. I eventually said, okay, I don't want to be here, you know, with he and his wife and they're having a baby. Like, I don't want to be in their home. I want to get my own apartment. And that was $500 a month in Columbus, Ohio. So I was like, I just need to figure out how to make 500amonth. So my journey has been more like 3, 612 month seasons of how can I get to this next step? And I never really dreamed of, sure, maybe like I fantasized it'd be great to be a millionaire and have a nice home one day. But I never really cared about stuff. I never really, like, I want the new car or the new watch or the whatever. This is the first watch that I have and it's a gift from a friend. And it took me months to actually get comfortable wearing it because I just have never been like, let me go buy the biggest, latest, newest thing and have more things. I always wanted security and safety. So I would hoard my money. I wouldn't actually invest in myself. I would take, you know, Greyhound buses and take the cheapest ticket I could get. I would take the cheapest flight with three connections just to save the extra 100, $200 on a flight. I would stay on couches at friends houses. Even when I was making more money, I was like, what can I do for free? How can I just like save money? Because I had a wound around, I don't want to go back to being on my sister's couch. I don't want to go back. What if I lose it all? I don't want to go back to that place. So for me, it was never, how can I have more stuff or things to feel abundant. It was, I was living in scarcity in a lot of ways emotionally, because I wasn't willing to invest. So up until two years ago, until I turned 40 years old, Jenna, I, I lived in a two bedroom apartment and I was completely happy with that. I was happy with like, just nice amenities, a little space, a good view, and I didn't own a lot of things. I didn't have a car for many years. I walked everywhere. And for me, that wasn't really about it. It was more about how can I do something that I feel purposeful and on purpose. How can I make an impact? How can I be contributing to the world in a more powerful way that made me feel rich.

A (19:27)

That's really beautiful. So what changed? Like, did you just. As time went on, you just thought to yourself, actually, maybe I do want more.

B (19:35)

Or I think I started to realize the, you know, I think what you, what you invest in appreciates and value is a big thing that I learned. And I realized I wasn't investing in me in a lot of ways. And I wasn't investing in good nutrition and therefore I was gaining weight. I wasn't investing in a good bed because I was fine with like some crappy old bed and then I was waking up with back pain. I wasn't investing in more leg room for maybe business class when I had enough money to invest in it.

A (20:06)

And you're a tall guy.

B (20:07)

I'm a giant. So it's like, even business class, like hurts my knees. You know, it's like. But I was, I would just cram myself for six hours, like with my legs together and my knees hitting the front of a seat and just cram myself in the middle seat. Cause I wanted to save 200 bucks. And I was just like, huh, I'm not investing in me, in the quality of my health and investing in myself enough. And therefore I'm unable to appreciate in value. And again, our relationship with money is an emotional, is an emotionally intense, intimate relationship. And so if I'm unable to invest in me, then it's diminishing my relationship with myself as well. Now I'm not saying bend everything on yourself abundantly all day long and you have to pay premium everywhere. But it's figuring out what matters to me and where I want to feel like I'm investing in myself. And now that's part of like money therapy is learning how to, hey, it's okay to spend on this. Even though my old self used to be like, how could I pay for a business class? I could buy a laptop with this. I could buy an iPhone with this. So I would always like associate it with something else. And I'm like, yeah, what am I doing? This is like a four hour flight that I could do something else or hire a freelancer to help me build this thing. And so I would always. It was so hard for me to break that money story, that money belief that was holding me back. And so I had to slowly learn how to do it where I could feel more emotionally safe in that process. And I eventually started to, you know, this whole journey of writing this book. A lot of triggers came up for me toward the end of writing this book where I thought I had done a lot of the work and man, it really like knocked me out emotionally for a few months because there was still some money wounds that I hadn't addressed that I realized were really holding me back in a big way. And it came around feeling taken advantage of and feeling abused. And there was a, a company that essentially was withholding a million dollars of my money. And I felt like they were stealing, taking advantage of me and abusing me. And they were holding it for months. And at first I was not that. I was like, okay, it's going to come in a week. And then weeks went by, months went by, and it's like I erupted, you know, this frustration, this anger. And I was like, man, I don't like that version of me. I don't like, like there's a wound in me. So someone poked and found the wound and man, they dug in there and I responded and reacted with frustration, with anger. And sure, it doesn't mean I should never be able to express myself and you can have emotions, but it, it made me realize like, oh, this has power over me still. This has control over me still. It doesn't mean it's right what they did. But I don't want to feel less than, I don't want to feel unworthy of peace. And I'm allowing this to ruin my peace. And so I, I've learned through these, you know, painful lessons how to navigate the healing process. And over the last few years, when I, you know, when I bought my first home, part of it was envisioning a future self and what my future self really would be craving of me now and my future vision and values was I want to be married, I want to have kids, I want to have a family, and I want to have a whole, a sanctuary where family or friends can come and feel safe, feel loved, and feel abundant to be themselves. And so part of that was taking a step in making a bigger purchase, investing in a bigger way for my future self to feel abundant and peaceful.

A (23:58)

I love that because so much of the time when we're trying to kind of stay afloat, let's say, or in that mindset that we have to, we're not thinking about the long term plan enough and life is obviously, it's short but it is also long. And you know, when you talk about the word values, that's kind of, it helps you take a, a zoomed out view of your life of like, what's an actual thing that you value. And like you said, if you want to value yourself, then that helps you make the decisions, like the mini daily ones more easily because you have like a kind of a goal post or some sort of like, guide that's in your, in your back pocket that you say, okay, no, hold on. Remind myself, I'm investing in myself. And it makes me want to ask you if you ever had a, you know, like, when you were a kid, were you ever like, oh, I can put up with a lot. I don't have to like, don't be fussy or don't put up, like, I can squish, I can, you know, not have, you know, I can go last or I can not, you know, I can be uncomfortable. Maybe it's good to be uncomfortable like any of that because so making me think that other beliefs also kind of fold in that are indirect and they also kind of fold into our spending and our money relationship.

B (25:07)

Yeah, I mean, I felt like I could endure because my family went through just lots of traumas. You know, one of my first memories was being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know when I was five. My brother went to prison for four and a half years when I turned eight. So that kind of changed the trajectory of our entire family life by that, that event happening. My parents got divorced when I was a teenager. I left home when I was 13 because of the chaos at home. So all these kind of memories created a story from those wounds. And until I was able to as an adult, reflect on those memories and start making meaning from those wounds and having. And forgiving myself, forgiving others and having peace around it, those things still held me back in a lot of ways. They drove my behaviors to achieve, to accomplish, to earn all these different things. But it still left me feeling scarce, unlovable, like things aren't good enough and doubting myself. So I had to learn to heal, forgive, mend, create boundaries, all those things, to have a better sense of peace within me, to create from that space.

A (26:17)

So what I'm hearing you say is that what it's about is getting rid of the charge behind the thinking and the choices. Because if there was no charge, then whether you decided to take a more cramped seat or the bigger seat. Yeah, you would just, it would just be the one you felt like in the moment. Let's just say. Or for someone else, they might have to learn to sometimes be a bit more uncomfortable whilst you're, you know, maybe trying to be a better saver or something like that. So it's, again, it's not like a one size fits all. It's about sort of scratching beneath the surface and knowing what is coming from a reactive place rather than from a whole place.

B (26:51)

Exactly. And everything's seasonal, you know. And when I was on my sister's couch, a rich life at that moment looked very different than a rich life at this moment. And me and my wife have been sharing this, you know, asking ourselves this question over the last month. We got married a month, five weeks ago, and we've been asking ourselves this question. What does a rich life look to us like? What does a rich life look like in this new season? Sure. We. We've created this sanctuary together. We have what we think is a beautiful relationship with each other. And what does it look like? Where else do we need support? Where else are we looking to thrive? What is something that's holding us back, where we could be investing to create more peace or opportunities for us to have more time together? What does a rich life look like for us? And I think it's important to evaluate wherever you are. If I was on my sister's couch, a rich life might have been like, I just want to be able to go have, you know, McDonald's once a week or something and, like, go enjoy that moment of having a Happy Meal, whatever it is. Like when I was 24, that would have been, like, this amazing. You know, it's creating those. Those emotional experiences that feel rich for you. I would never have McDonald's now, but back then, that was the jam.

A (28:09)

Yeah. It's so amazing as well, because it makes you realize that it's not about getting to this final point. Like, we just want to get to the end and then relax. But as long as we're in the game of life, there's always another moment of, like, reassessment. And it's amazing because it means that you cannot switch off. There's no, like, okay, I just rinse and repeat, and then I'm done for the rest of my life. It's like, I have to be in the today, and I really have to pay attention to what am I drawn to? What's feeling good? What am I, you know, resisting because of fear or because I don't want to look and whatever. So it really gives us this, like, if you can do it, because it is Uncomfortable. But it gives us this agency of I always. I'm able to learn how to give myself what I need deeper and deeper. So it is also like, very kind of caring of. Of. Of inner self. Because the other option doesn't work. You know, you get to. You have people who, you know, they make everything in the world, and they're perfectly happily married and everything. And then they get to 65 and they're like, hold on a second. I didn't even think about my fulfillment along the way. And then they start to feel, rightly or wrongly, like they wasted time or they didn't know things. You know, my dad said to me recently, he's like, if there's something I could have told you earlier that I. I'm only learning for myself now, is that, like, only do it if it's fun.

B (29:25)

Yeah.

A (29:26)

You know, and that's. I think what you're talking about is. And I think, also rewarding in the moment.

B (29:32)

100. And I think also there's Season of Life where we. We do things that are not fun, that are not enjoyable. I was a truck driver for three months, driving six hours a day. This was pre Bluetooth. This was pre. Like, there was a CD player, and that was it. No, no smartphones. And it was not. It was not enjoyable. It was not fun to drive a truck six hours a day to make $250 a week at the time. But I, I, after a few weeks of doing it, and I was like, this is miserable. I had to find a way to make it enjoyable, to make it fun. And so I literally asked a friend of mine. At this time, I was learning how to salsa dance. I was just a beginner. I was just learning how to salsa dance. So I asked a friend, can you burn me a CD? I don't know if anyone remembers burning CDs, but of course, can you burn me a CD with the top salsa hits? And he did. So I had this one CD that I would play for six hours a day, and I would imagine myself dancing the moves that I was learning the day before while I was driving a truck. So I would make fun and enjoyment out of something that was not what I wanted to do in that moment. And I would. When I listened to the music and I would imagine myself and kind of move my body a little bit, as if I was, like, doing the turns and just visualize the process, obviously watching the road. But I'd visualize in my mind the process as well, and it made it more enjoyable. And I think a lot of Times we want to be doing everything, that's only fun for us as well. There's stuff I do every day that is not fun that I, that I get to do because I get to be of service to my team, to my, you know, my bills, to my, my office space, to whatever it is. I've got to do certain things to serve my responsibilities as well. And the goal is to bring that enjoyment, that peace within you, knowing that hopefully you're either working towards something that brings you more meaning, you're on purpose in this journey. And I think when you can bring the joy, bring the fun, bring the excitement, even in the mundane, that's when you win. Because it's not all going to be like we're on the beach and having fun and just chilling all day.

A (31:39)

No. And you bring up two really such important points, which is. Well, firstly, yeah, it's like you bring the energy so you could be having the most enjoyable quote, unquote job that never has any, I guess, not so enjoyable parts. But it's your energy that kind of paints onto the, the canvas of does that decides what the outcome is going to be. And second of all, what you said about the mundane, because I think about that all the time. Where someone once said to me, you know, even Jeff Bezos walks on the same sidewalk as everybody else, he has to wake up and brush his teeth. He has to, you know, if you go to the restaurant, okay, you can afford to go to a restaurant. But up aside from that, like there's not really any other differentiators.

B (32:24)

There's only so much you can eat.

A (32:26)

Yeah. And that's a really, I think under talked about principle that yes, so much of life can change, but there's also so many things that are not going to the part of being human that you either have to decide to make it great because nothing that you kind of acquire from the outside is going to improve that experience for you. Like the brushing the teeth or like the being alone with your thoughts the first minute you open your eyes and stuff like that. So that's kind of why I was asking you about your values and if anything has changed, you know, since you started, you know, doing better. But I think that's so key is, is we don't think that we can make the energy of something better. We, we almost forget that we can make it fun. Whistle while you work is the, is the saying, right? And it's almost like we're so overly believing that the outside has control over us. Whereas, you know, and I love what you're saying, which is that you found a way to make it fun. And I think that's one of the top questions that I get asked is I'm in a job that I don't like, how do I, when do I stay, when should I leave, whatever. But actually, what you, what you were saying with that example is, and I've never heard you say that before, but it's so enlivening because you had a foot in between both worlds, essentially.

B (33:46)

Yes, I have. I've done a lot of jobs that I did not like. I've made no money, you know, sleeping on my sister's couch for a year and a half, trying to figure out what's my purpose, what's my plan, what are my skills, will I ever get out of this? Will I ever make any money? I remember that pain. It's not enjoyable.

A (34:04)

And yet, like you said, you're, you're at different points in the journey where different things have to be important to you.

B (34:11)

Yes.

A (34:12)

And I really, I really like, I think it's so refreshing to hear you say that, you know, I know some of it was coming from, you know, money stories, but that you were fulfilled just in that two bedroom home because you felt like you had your purpose and that you were enjoying what you were creating in the world. And I think that's amazing. And so do you still. That's your.

B (34:38)

It was also kind of like, it was also like exciting times. Even though I wasn't making a lot of money then, I, I, after I got over the kind of season of sadness that my football dreams were over, I was kind of in denial for many months. I was injured, I was recovering from surgery. And I was really sad because most of my life I believed I was going to be a professional athlete. I did that for a year, got injured playing arena football in America. And that was really hard because my identity was tied around playing sports. And now I had to figure out a new identity. I had to figure out what is my value, what are my skills in kind of the world outside of sports, how do I get a job? You know, will anyone ever pay me for anything? What can I contribute to the world? I didn't think I had any skills besides catching a football. So I had to learn how to overcome so many different fears. And in some ways it was terrifying. But in other ways, every day I was taking action to overcome my fear of public speaking, my fear of writing, because I wanted to write a book, but I didn't, I didn't do well in school. So I was like, I need to practice. And I was writing blog posts every day. My fear of salsa dancing, which was another fear, which is why I started doing it. I would see myself improving, although very slowly, in all these areas, but I could see improvement on these insecurities and fears that I had. And that improvement gave me excitement, gave me joy, gave me energy, and I was like, let me keep going. Let me get better. And it was the learning to overcome the fear of not knowing anything around a skill, to being a beginner at a skill, to an intermediate, to becoming more advanced, to, oh, wow, I can travel anywhere in the world and not know a soul and not know the language, and I can go into a salsa club and ask someone to dance and have an amazing moment. And wow, what a skill that I couldn't do before. I can write a book now when I couldn't, I almost wanted out of English class in my senior year of high school. Wow, what a skill. I can speak on stage when I was unable to get in front of my classmates without stuttering and being nervous. Wow, what a skill. What a privilege, what a pleasure to be of service in this new skill that I didn't have before. That created a lot of momentum and excitement that now I can do more. And I think when people can. There were a lot of these hidden skills within me that I didn't think were valuable that became channels for me to generate wealth and money. One of them was something that I never thought I would make money around, which was asking dumb questions. Because when I was in my early 20s and I was on my sister's couch, I started using LinkedIn to network with kind of leaders and professionals in Columbus, Ohio, which is where I was living and trying to venture, trying to find a job opportunity in the first place, but then just started asking people, hey, how did you overcome your challenges to get where you're at? And by kind of asking these curious questions, they all started to give me advice and give me answers to my own problems. Then I started to take action on what they would tell me. Then I would get results. And after a few years, four or five years, everyone was like, man, how did you create these results so fast? I was like, I just found mentors. I asked them questions, they told me what to do, and I did it. And I just had the courage to do it every day. And after, after kind of building a business, an online marketing business for the first few years, and finally making enough money to get off my sister's couch and have some savings, I was At a crossroads in my life where I was like, okay, this isn't what I want to be doing anymore. I'm good at it and I can make money at it, but I've saved enough now. What is it I would like to do or experiment or try? And I was like, I really just kind of want to ask people questions, record it, and share these answers with the world. I had no idea it would turn into the school of greatness. But 12 years later, every single week for 12 years, it has allowed me to create something that I enjoy creating, to be of service to people. And it started with one episode helping one person, and now it's much bigger. But it's been a 12 year journey of leaning into this hidden skill that I didn't think was valuable around asking curious questions.

A (39:06)

You probably didn't even think of it as a skill or a gift. You just thought it was a weird quirk that you had and probably overlooked it.

B (39:14)

But it was also something that was. It was also something I was made fun of as a kid.

A (39:17)

Ah.

B (39:18)

And so I was like embarrassed around because I never had the answers in class. So I don't know if you remember like middle school, high school, but I was always afraid to raise my hand and ask a question because someone would always laugh at the question. So there was a wound there as well. I was like, huh? I don't know the answer. I'm stupid. I'm not enough. I'm worthless. I'm not valuable. And everyone else in the class already knew the answer. So after I did that a few times, I was like, I never want to get laughed at again for. For being dumb, for not having the answer. So I went and asked the questions. But then one on one, I would go ask the teacher, I would ask the executive, I would ask the athlete and be like, man, how do you put your mindset into a frame to overcome this fear right now? What is it that you really do right before you go on stage? Like, I would just ask these dumb questions that I would get laughed at in school when I would ask. And that became my channel for. For growth.

A (40:18)

Your channel for being a channel. Because you now are able to ask questions that so many people want to know. And you're also able to, you personally are able to learn. You've probably learned more than anyone in school. I want to ask you just to go back to this point about taking action on this, the salsa dancing and the writing and the public speaking. Because those things, you know, maybe writing and public speaking are kind of connected. But they're, they're not like, oh, I know exactly what I'm going to do when I blend all these three things together. Right? Were you literally just choosing anything that you were curious about to give you confidence and then that bled into your ability to know that you could learn other skills?

B (41:07)

It was more of, you know, when I saw Tony Robbins for the first time when I was 16 at an event. He was hosting the event and me and my mom went, my dad bought us tickets in St. Louis, Missouri and he came off stage at one point during the event. It was like a three day conference. He came off stage and he kind of walked down. There's probably like 15,000 people there. He walked down and he stood right next to me. And the reason I'm sharing the story is because I don't remember the words he actually said in that moment. But his energy and the way he was able to impact people in a positive way. He made like a impact on me where I was like, man, I'm going to go work harder. I want to go create more. I want to overcome my fears. It created a feeling inside of me that I wanted to hold on to. And I was like, man, it'd be so cool to just be able to create that feeling for someone. It doesn't have to be speaking in public, it doesn't have to be like being like him. But I was like, wow, what a gift he gave me as a unsure but kind of cocky, acting like I know it all, 16 year old, but really insecure and hurt deep down. And it's like, man, what a gift he gave me. And wouldn't it be cool to just be able to create something in the world like that? It doesn't need to be me like rah rah, championing people. But how can I facilitate that experience for others to be of service? And when I got into out of playing football, I was finding different mentors and I met one guy who was a public speaker. That's all he did for full time. And I was just so fascinated by it because it's not something I could do at that time. I was so scared to get up and speak in front of a group of five people, let alone 500 or 5,000. I didn't have the skill or the courage to do it at that time. So I was just fascinated on how he had the skills. And we had coffee one day and I couldn't afford it, so he bought coffee and he was like, if you want to excel in life, you need to learn the art of communication. And you don't have to be a public speaker and go be a professional speaker full time. But if you're trying to get a job, you need to learn how to communicate in front of someone who's hiring you with the spoken word. If you are trying to improve your status at a. At a company and you get into a group meeting, you need to be able to speak up to communicate your vision or what you think you guys should create and why and back it. If there's a board meeting, you need to be able to have a presence to be able to communicate. This was confidence. It's going to support you in your career or if you want to speak publicly. So I just thought to myself, okay, if I want to make an impact anywhere, you know, as a leader, in my family, with my friends, in a career, on stage, I need to learn to communicate in a powerful way or an effective way. And he said. And I. So I said, how do I do this? And he said, you need to go to Toastmasters and overcome the fear of public speaking first. And Toastmasters is international group where they just practice public speaking and you get feedback from peers. And I went every single week for a year and was terrified. For the first few months, every time I got up to give a speech, I was just miserable, horrible. But every time I did it, I gained a little more confidence and the group gives you feedback. And I just continued to improve. And I had a mentor coaching me on how to get better. So I took it very seriously. And I went all in on overcoming the fear. And each new skill that I was learning to develop what was once a fear gave me more courage and confidence and allowed me to appreciate my value even more.

A (44:49)

I think there's such a powerful lesson in what you're saying, which is that I think so many of the times when we're trying to figure out our purpose, we want to sit on the couch and we want to think harder, and we want to like brain more and be like, what's my purpose? What's my purpose? How do I feel more confident? How do I believe in myself more? That what you're. What I'm hearing you say is that it's by being in the game, it's by just trying anything that kind of helps you feel like there's some sort of, like, movement that's being created. And knowing that you went from feeling less capable to a bit more to a bit more to a bit more, and then you can kind of know that that's the process that you can apply to basically anything. Like, if I said to you, louis, you need to learn how to do something completely new tomorrow, you'd probably be like, okay, I know how this is going to go.

B (45:35)

Yeah.

A (45:36)

You wouldn't need to be like, how do I make sure it's, like, the perfect thing and how I'm perfectly suited for it today? And, you know, which I think is. Is one of the things that is so crippling to people when they're trying to figure out what their purpose is or how they make money. And it seems like you just experimented a lot and really threw yourself into the game of life.

B (45:56)

Exactly. And it never ends. You know, right now I'm learning Spanish, and it's. It's been very challenging for me, but I can see myself improving little by little, year by year. And I've just got to keep committing to the vision that I have, which is to be able to speak to my kids in the future in Spanish and not be limited by my ability to communicate, because I know they will be fluent, and I want to be able to have that relationship with them in that language as well.

A (46:26)

That's really beautiful. So you're your sort of doing it for your. Your later self, like you were saying to me.

B (46:34)

My future self. Yeah, I'm investing for my future self.

A (46:37)

Yeah.

B (46:38)

Playing the long game, it's freaking hard work. It's challenging. You know, it's. It's. You got to be committed to it, you got to be consistent with it. And. And it's constantly overcoming the looking stupid. It's like going back to my childhood of like, ah, I don't understand it. I don't get it yet. And I look silly. I sound silly. I'm forgetting these things. And so it's just overcoming that insecurity and that fear daily. When I practice, it's not enjoyable. It's not like I enjoy looking like a fool, but it's also a muscle I get to build, to learn to be like, it's okay. Who cares if I am not perfect right now? I don't know the language yet, so how can I expect to be perfect in something I don't know, take it easy on myself, forgive myself for not mastering it right away, and enjoy the process.

A (47:28)

I think so many of the things that we entertain, like these little fears or these little judgments that keep us small, it's like, you know, talk about playing the long game. When we're. When we're not on this earth anymore, we look back. We're going to look back and say that that was so silly, it was so trivial in a sweet way for ourselves, you know, in a compassionate way. But like none of that really mattered. And so I think about often if I was living from that perspective of my already dead self, you know, how much of that would I entertain anyway? Do you know what I mean? None of it's real. And the way that we dissolve it is by saying, I see you, I hear you, and, and I'm going to do the opposite of what you're telling me because I know that you're not real. And that's where I think it really comes back to two values. Because if we value, you know, having a connection with our children more than we in the short term care about looking stupid, that really does makes it seem like a no brainer, doesn't it?

B (48:27)

100%.

A (48:30)

Is there any other sort of key principles that you've included in the book that really impacted you that you want to share with? I call them my cluster, my people, the cluster.

B (48:43)

Well, there's, there's seven money habits that will support you in unlocking abundance and inner peace. And I, I break through each one of them in the book. There's assessment, there's all these different things. You go to money therapy, all these different things. But there's two habits that I think have really impacted my life. All of them have impacted me in a powerful way. But there's two, if I'm just choosing two that have really stood out, and one is the first habit, which is the mindset habit. And a lot of people think that when I have money, then I'll feel abundant and I'll feel free. But the mindset habit is actually reversing everything and being generous and grateful at the start when you have nothing. Because I believe that gratitude and generosity is the gateway to abundance. It's not once I get everything, then I'll feel abundant, but it's when I'm giving, when I'm generous, and when I'm grateful for where I'm at and the process I'm on. I am abundant. And from some of the wealthiest people that I've interviewed in the world, most of them, not all of them, but most of them say that I learned a secret to building extreme wealth early on. And that was the more I give away or the more I use my resources to serve others. And I do it in almost an uncomfortable way every year I make more than next year. And not everyone has said this, but most of the people who are extremely wealthy I've interviewed have said the more I give Whether it be to charity or reinvesting in certain causes or whatever it might be, where it's like, oh, that's a little uncomfortable to give that much of my money. The more generous, the more they receive in the future. And I think that's just a principle we should be living in. It doesn't mean we have to give our money away or give more money than we, than we have right now. But can we give generously with our attention, with our time, with our kindness, with our resources, with our ability to connect people in our lives, to support them growing without needing something in return? Can we give in ways that is generous for us with where we're at? I think that you create abundance through that generous spirit and heart more than having financial wealth. And you know, so many people will say the greatest gift is when you give, not when you receive. In general, it's fun to see you light someone else up. And I just think if we can live in that on a, on a consistent basis, we're going to live a richer life in general. So that would be one habit which is not waiting until you have more to feel generous, but being generous before you have a lot. And the mastermind habit is the fourth habit of the seven money habits to unlock financial peace and freedom. And there's no greater, I guess, strategy than connecting with like minded smart people in an industry who have industry knowledge to support you in growth. And there's so many times that I've been to masterminds in the last 16 years now where when I go to one, I either get an idea that helps me create more abundance, I meet someone where we do some type of opportunity together to create financial gain and it's all about a mutual benefit. So finding ways to be in communities, what do you call them? Your cluster, My cluster. Your cluster is a part of a mastermind within your community. And the more you invest in the community of this cluster, as a listener, as a viewer of this right now, as a member of your app, things like that, your newsletter, the more that you say how can I invest more of my time, attention into developing relationships within this cluster, you are ultimately going to gain as well by giving to the people in the group first. Not saying how can I join a group and get something, but how can I be a part of a community and really reach out to people to help elevate them? It's all going to come back eventually. And sure, you need to learn how to create boundaries and not over give and never receive. You want to be like an open Channel of giving and receiving, but going with the attention and the mind space and the heart space of I'm here to serve and help freely without needing something right away. And I think when you can be a part of this cluster or other cluster masterminds to, you're just gonna gain more knowledge, inspiration, and courage to grow.

A (53:22)

I think that's absolutely beautiful because ultimately, the thing that feels the best is being someone that you enjoy being, which is someone who is giving, someone who is generous, someone who has great spirit, someone who loves other people, brings other people in, warmth, togetherness, like it's the most enjoyable thing to be. A person who is fun to be, who's enjoyable to be. And when you're proud of how you show up and your own essence and you think, wow, I'm doing myself. I'm, you know, I'm doing good by myself. And, and like you said, then it just. You don't have to do it in a transactional way where you're expecting anything back, but you're just putting that out, you know, and it's, and it's, it's mirroring back. That's. That's what reality is. Those are really two. I mean, I really want to know what the other five are, but I'll. I'll just get the book. Exactly. Thank you so much for this, Louis. I also just want to say that on that point of the mastermind, you know, if you don't have a local community, that's where podcasts like yours really are helpful, because you are connecting to wise people. You're connecting to thinkers who are thinking in ways that allow you to open up your own brain. And, you know, no one, we. We don't know anything. Right. And so the more we can tune into, you know, you really are, to me, one of the best interviewers that there is.

B (54:38)

Thank you.

A (54:39)

And the best listeners. And so if you feel like you don't know where to find community, just, you know, tune into what other people. Conversation. Conversations other people are having. I'm going to. I will. I eagerly await my book, but if it's. I happily will buy one as well, because I'm. I want to know what the other five are.

B (54:59)

Send you a copy. Yeah.

A (55:00)

Make money easy, which I love. The. The double entendre of that.

B (55:04)

Yeah. Most people try to make easy money, and it never seems to work out in the long term. And most people make money hard in their life. The relationship with money is challenging. And so my whole vision and intention is to create a space where you can make money easy in your life, so you have abundance and inner peace.

A (55:23)

That's really, really beautiful. It's the helping us get to our dreams whilst also becoming the people that we dream of being. So I really appreciate the fact that you've put the best of both worlds together in a topic that, you know, just doesn't have that bridge. So far I haven't seen it. And what, you're going to create a whole other job role. I can see it now, people being specifically money therapists. Because everyone's going to be wanting to go to money therapy.

B (55:51)

Exactly, exactly.

A (55:52)

So here, Lewis, if that's something you want to be exactly interested in or get the book, thank you so much. Thank you. And I hope this just really resonates with everybody who has the fears and the anxiety and the unease around a topic that we've only, you know, felt like we've been conditioned to respond to it that way. And maybe, hopefully this conversation helps you realize that maybe that was just an automatic program and you get to choose a different relationship to it. So here's to your rising.

B (56:27)

Thanks so much.