Episode Overview

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Jasmine Graham, Shark Scientist & Author
Episode Title: A Black Shark Scientist on How to Make Marine Biology More Diverse
Date: July 19, 2024

This episode centers on the remarkable journey of Jasmine Graham, a marine biologist and shark scientist, who challenges misconceptions about sharks and advocates for diversity and equity in marine biology. Through candid conversation and reflections from her memoir, Sharks Don't Sink: Adventures of a Rogue Shark Scientist, Graham discusses the realities of working in a predominantly white, male field, her efforts to cultivate change, and the parallels she observes between the portrayal of sharks and marginalized people.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Jasmine Graham and Shark Science

[00:32 - 03:52]

• What Does a Shark Scientist Do?

  • "I get paid to study fish... I ask questions about what do sharks do, where do they go, and how are humans... impacting shark survival?"
    — Jasmine Graham [02:10]
  • Days vary: fieldwork catching, tagging, taking samples from sharks; lab work with genetics and pollutant analysis; writing publications; grant applications; mentoring students.

• The Daily Realities:

  • No "typical" day: can shift from on-water research to administrative or mentorship tasks.

2. Shark Conservation: The 100 Million Problem

[03:52 - 06:38]

• Staggering Statistics:
  • "On average, 100 million sharks die each year from encounters with humans."
    • Causes: Overfishing, shark meat and squalene trade, bycatch, poaching, and illegal trade.
  • "Some shark populations have decreased as much as 90% since the industrial revolution. So it's a big problem."
    — Jasmine Graham [05:49]

3. Shark Advocacy: Overcoming Misconceptions

[06:38 - 08:08]

• Public Perception Issues:

  • "Sharks haven't had the best PR people...The perception is that there are these mindless killing machines... And when people fear something, it's really hard for them to see the value in that group of animals."
    — Jasmine Graham [07:01]
  • Graham works to transition people from fear to fascination.

• Personal Journey:

  • Grew up in a fishing family, considered sharks a nuisance but not an object of fear.
  • "I wish I would have been paying more attention...they're actually really cool and like super dope animals."
    — Jasmine Graham [09:29]

4. Fascination with Sharks: Ancient Resilient Survivors

[09:40 - 10:49]

• Why Sharks Are So Fascinating:
  • "This group of animals had been on this planet over 400 million years... sharks now and prehistoric sharks are very similar... They were here before dinosaurs, before trees, before Saturn got its rings."
    — Jasmine Graham [09:45]

5. Memoir Insights: Isolation and Finding Community

[11:45 - 14:07]

• Difficulties in Academia:

  • Marine science as a "very hierarchical...homogenous, mostly white, male dominated space."
  • Experiences of gaslighting, lack of protection, and power imbalances.

• Turning Point: #BlackInNature on Twitter:

  • "It was like finding a unicorn...I had gone through years of being the only person...in 2019, there was one black member...and it was me."
    — Jasmine Graham [14:07]
  • Community with other Black shark scientists was transformative and validated her experiences.

6. Redefining Science Through Inclusion: Minorities in Shark Sciences (MISS)

[15:59 - 18:00]

• The Nonprofit’s Mission:

  • "Minorities in Shark Sciences, or Miss as we call it, is dedicated to broadening participation in marine science, particularly the study of sharks and rays."
  • Focus: Exposing underrepresented youth to science, providing paid (not unpaid) opportunities, flexible and accessible training, mentorship, and collaboration.

• Challenging the Field’s Status Quo:

  • Tackles financial and systemic barriers: "There's a big expectation traditionally that you work for free...which creates huge financial barriers for people who don’t have a safety net."
  • "We also encourage mentorship and collaboration so that we can all lift as we climb and leverage each other's expertise..."
    — Jasmine Graham [17:22]

7. The Meaning Behind the Title: "Sharks Don't Sink"

[18:00 - 19:33]

• Literal and Metaphorical Resilience:
  • "Sharks...they don’t have swim bladders...their swimming is what keeps them in the water column. And so once they stop swimming, they sink."
    — Jasmine Graham [18:16]
  • "You will not sink if you keep moving. It doesn't matter what direction you go in, just keep moving, don't stop, don't give up."
    — Jasmine Graham [18:54]

Notable Book Excerpt

[19:51 - 21:15]
Read by Jasmine Graham, from Sharks Don't Sink

"I don't just love sharks. I feel for them. I admire their persistence, their resilience, their ability to survive, to keep moving forward. But I'm also laser focused on their vulnerabilities...I see myself and my people in sharks. All too often black people are perceived and treated much like sharks, feared, misunderstood and brutalized...It's very hard to imagine a white person being shot at point blank range after being pulled over by a cop...But not for black people. And in the same way, try to imagine folks going around dragging dolphins behind boats or beating turtles to death. You can't. People would be up in arms if that happened...But not for sharks."
— Jasmine Graham reading [19:51]

Closing Insights: Diversity is Survival

[21:25 - 21:53]

• "One of the biggest lessons from sharks and just nature in general is that diversity is what helps us survive. If you have a wide diversity of a group of animals, you're much more likely to be able to adapt to change and to have some sort of resource in order to survive any sort of situation or incident. And I think that's the biggest lesson that we can learn as human beings."
  — Jasmine Graham [21:25]

Summary of Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Jasmine’s description of how science, like sharks themselves, must keep moving to avoid stagnation—personally and structurally.
• The poignant connection made between the demonization of sharks and the prejudice Black people experience in society.
• The founding of Minorities in Shark Sciences as both a practical intervention and a symbolic act of resilience.
• The idea that "diversity is survival" applies as much to human communities as it does to marine ecosystems.

Essential Timestamps

• 00:32 Introduction to Jasmine and her work
• 03:52 100 million sharks killed annually - causes and consequences
• 06:38 Shark advocacy and the need to change public perception
• 09:45 The ancient resilience of sharks
• 11:45 The struggle of being "the only" in marine science
• 14:07 Founding Minorities in Shark Sciences (#BlackInNature)
• 18:09 The deeper meaning of "Sharks Don't Sink"
• 19:51 Book excerpt tying together sharks, resilience, and societal prejudices
• 21:25 The survival wisdom of diversity

Final Thoughts

This conversation with Jasmine Graham blends marine biology, memoir, cultural commentary, and activism, offering both an inside look at shark science and a resonant call to make the sciences (and society) more inclusive, resilient, and just. By connecting the lived realities of sharks and marginalized scientists, Graham reframes both in the public’s imagination—as worthy, vital, misunderstood, and, above all, deserving of respect and protection.