← All Of It with Alison Stewart
Loading summary
Transcript73 lines
- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states.
- [00:30]
Alison Stewart
You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Listeners, we want to give you a.
- [00:35]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
Heads up and a content warning against.
- [00:38]
Alison Stewart
Ahead of our next segment. This interview will touch on topics surrounding domestic violence, rape and sexual assault, specifically involving women.
- [00:46]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
This might be time for you to.
- [00:47]
Alison Stewart
Put on some headphones if you're around.
- [00:48]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
Younger listeners or find some time to.
- [00:50]
Alison Stewart
Listen later on wnyc. And if at any time you need support, please call the national sexual Assault Hotline, 1-800-656-4673. It's available 24 hours a day. A DOCU SERIES Show A docu series shows the hip hop mogul Sean Diddy Combs leading up to his high profile trial in October. He was convicted and sentenced to more than four years in federal prison for transporting individuals across state lines for the purposes of prostitution. He was acquitted on more serious sex trafficking and racketeering charges. The series is called Sean Combs the Rape Reckoning. We learn how Combs got to this point in his mid-50s. The film goes all the way back to his younger days in Mount Vernon, New York, his life as a New York City party promoter and as an artist and producer. We also hear from some of the people he hurt along the way. A review in the Guardian states about the series, it does feel like a grimly necessary one. Over the course of four episodes, the director Alexandria Stapleton paints a pattern of behavior that starts to feel horribly inevitable. Sean Combs the Reckoning is now streaming on Netflix. Director and executive producer Alexandria Stapleton joins us to discuss. Alexandria, thanks for coming to all of it.
- [02:11]
Alexandria Stapleton
Thank you for having me.
- [02:12]
Alison Stewart
So the story of Sean Combs and his victims has been covered heavily in the press. What parts of the story did you hope to illuminate?
- [02:21]
Alexandria Stapleton
I think that the goal of this series was to kind of take the two dimensional headlines, you know, that were happening in the news and to really give context behind what was happening. You know, the stories of the victims and more information about, you know, how do you even get to a place? How do you arrive at a place where all of this behavior could allegedly happen and no one is talking about it? You know, how did he wield so much power?
- [02:47]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
What was the question you wanted answered first?
- [02:50]
Alexandria Stapleton
Oh, goodness. I don't know if there was one question, I think. I mean, I was really drawn to understanding, like the source of power. I think that's what I was really interested in trying to unpack. You know, how does one get away with all of this? And what was the carrot? It seemed as though he was dangling a carrot, you know, with artists and a lot of different people kind of like, come do this, but I'm, you know, come work for me for a year, but I'm not gonna pay you. And so my head was like, well, how does that even happen? And it seemed to be also like o a lot of patterned behavior over the course of his career.
- [03:33]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
So in your mind, when you think, when you look back on it, did he always have the sense of what power is and what power can get you?
- [03:43]
Alexandria Stapleton
I think so. I think so. And I think that perhaps he saw at a very young age what he started off as the party promoter. And I think that people kind of chalk that up as like, oh, that's just teenager, young adult stuff. That's college behavior. But I think that there was a power dynamic even in that, those situations. You know, him promoting parties on college campuses. And, you know, we interviewed Joy Dickerson Neal, who told us about, you know, her allegations of sexual assault. And it was really harrowing for her to say. No one wanted to help her, no one wanted to say anything because they were afraid of not getting tickets to his parties. And so, you know, then you get, you throw more money in that story, you throw more power in that story, and then you can kind of see, you know, how things could escalate.
- [04:34]
Alison Stewart
Diddy has been a monumental figure in both hip hop and black culture. He's also a really good businessman. How did his relevance in hip hop, both the culture and the movement, how did it help you guide the narrative of the documentary?
- [04:52]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, I think that what ended up happening is that over the course of four episodes, we really kind of land in his ecosystem of Bad Boy. And that was, that's kind of the meat and potatoes of the series is it's the time that we cover. It's really understanding how did Bad Boy, how was it created, how did it run? And you know, all the way up into his arrest and, you know, indictment.
- [05:16]
Alison Stewart
Grammy award winning rapper and executive producer 50 Cent Curtis, 50 Cent Jackson. He's been skeptical of Diddy in the past. They've had sort of a rivalry in the industry. He served as the executive producer on this documentary series. Why do you think it was Important for him to be involved. Why did he want to be involved?
- [05:35]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, it's important to remember that when we started this project, there was no arrest, there was no indictment. All that had happened really was Cassie's lawsuit dropped and then, you know, his girlfriend. Yes. And then there were a few other lawsuits. This was, you know, early in the story. And so there were just so many people that were really afraid of talking. And 50, I think him coming on board and us, you know, partnering together to do this show, it sort of offered a shield of protection in a way. I think people mentally felt like, okay, well, I know that you're not taking my story, Alex, and going and giving it to the media or giving it to Sean. Like, it felt people, I think, felt safe to share. And so that was probably the biggest thing that, that having him attached to the project helped with A docu series.
- [06:24]
Alison Stewart
Reflects on the rise and fall of hip hop mogul Sean Diddy Combs. Director and executive producer Alexandria Stapleton is here with me now to discuss the series Sean Combs, the Reckoning. It is now stream on Netflix. You begin with footage of him amid the trial. Why did you want to start there?
- [06:44]
Alexandria Stapleton
That footage was. I mean, I remember when I first watched it, it was jaw dropping. And so I felt like getting into the story and realizing, you know, behind closed doors, you know, what was his attitude, you know, what were the conversations that were going on with him and his team? And it was really fascinating, you know, to. As a documentarian, those are the types of things that are very interesting, you know, to put into your stories.
- [07:09]
Alison Stewart
Yeah. Let's listen to a clip from Sean Combs, the Reckoning. This is six days before Combs arrest. He calls his attorney for an emergency meeting over the phone. Listen to this.
- [07:21]
Sean Combs' Attorney
We need the core theme to be, you didn't do anything wrong. You didn't do anything wrong on any front. And you've come to New York to face things head on. If anyone's ever paying any attention to what you've actually been doing, you've handled this with complete honor.
- [07:40]
Sean Combs
I don't think it's working. I've listened. I've been a superb client, as you said, I jumped on the plane, I'm coming to New York, but I'm just like, I'm just running around waiting for a shoe to drop.
- [07:57]
Sean Combs' Attorney
We're losing sight of the big picture, man. It's the middle of September and there's still no indictment. That, that, that.
- [08:04]
Sean Combs
Then you have to have a spokesman, you have to have some sort of comms to constantly be pushing that mark, because you may just be a person that just does. You just may watch CNN, you know what I'm saying? And there's like, there's 9 billion people in the world, and 7 billion of them is on Instagram and TikTok. And so you had y'. All. You at the wrong place looking to see what the people with the possible jurors are thinking. We have to find somebody that'll work with us, whether they from this country or from another country. It could be somebody that has dealt in the dirtiest of. Dirtiest dirty business of media and propaganda.
- [08:42]
Alison Stewart
What do these first few moments tell you about Sean Combs?
- [08:49]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, you know, he was, like, fighting for his freedom and fighting for his life, right? And I mean, there was no indictment yet, but he still. There was a pulse, you know, I think that they knew what was coming down the pipeline, and I think it was fascinating that he was filming it. You know, I think that that is interesting. Like, just that fact alone, you know, in the height of all of that, you're sitting in your hotel room and you have someone who you don't, you know, some guy who's not a part of your team filming you. And that was, like, very odd to me when I first watched it.
- [09:29]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
He spoke to comms. Yeah, like, he says comms in the middle of us. Like, oh, this is your comms. This is your propaganda that you. Well, propaganda. But this is what you are saying to get your story out.
- [09:39]
Alexandria Stapleton
Correct.
- [09:40]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
And he understood that.
- [09:41]
Alexandria Stapleton
He understood that. I mean, he's a genius at it. And then, you know, I think once we had that, once we saw that, we were able to kind of build this case, to show the pattern of him understanding that at a very early age and how he kind of perfected. And then you see what happened during the trial and how things did unfold.
- [10:04]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
How did you keep your sort of documentarian hat on so that you didn't feed into the propaganda or the marketing of it?
- [10:11]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, of course, the mission is to show both sides, and I would have loved to have gotten an interview with Sean Combs. I think that that. Or even his attorneys or more people on his team. But I think that we did show both sides. I mean, really, that footage kind of shows you his side of things and what he was thinking and feeling in real time.
- [10:39]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
There's someone in the series who brings up the idea that people's perception of Sean Combs might be different based on how they follow him, whether they follow him on CNN, whether they follow him on TikTok, he brought it up himself. How might someone who isn't necessarily a fan or a follower of Sean. Com, how might someone think about his.
- [11:02]
Alison Stewart
Career think about him?
- [11:04]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, I think from the surface level, you know, he's been a massive contributor, you know, to the culture, to hip hop culture, to black culture. And he has really been, you know, a giant force, you know, who's been involved from everything from music to elections to, like, so many things. And a lot of that is positive. So I think that, you know, for people that aren't. Don't know everything about, you know, all of his. The recording industry part of him, I think that they probably resonate that he's a mogul and a billionaire and, you know, one of those, like, very amazing American, you know, American stories, you know.
- [11:49]
Alison Stewart
Let'S go back a little bit. He was born in Harlem. He moved up to Mount Vernon, New York. How did the people who knew him when he was in Mount Vernon, and his mother as well, was an important influence, how did they describe the family?
- [12:05]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, I interviewed a close friend and someone who grew up with him in the same house as him upstairs, Tim Dogg. And, you know, Tim described the family life as, you know, his father was murdered tragically when Shawn was very little. And so he grew up with a single mom who I think worked really hard to make ends meet and to raise her son. He was fortunate enough to go to private school, where I think that also kind of shaped his, you know, his. The way he saw the world and exposed him to things and, you know, went from my understanding, kind of being bullied when he was young to sort of coming into his own skin and understanding again, you know, like, how do I assert control because I am the underdog. So what do I do to flip the script and to flip the narrat?
- [13:00]
Alison Stewart
Yeah, he went to Howard University, hbcu. He dropped out, though, to pursue a career in entertainment. Right. So he gets to, like, the height goes to Howard. I'm gonna go to entertainment now. What was the allure of entertainment and of business at the time?
- [13:16]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, Sean's the only one who could really answer that question. But from the outside looking in, I think he liked attention. You know, I think that's also something that. That we could trace that went back to his childhood, you know, his, you know, Tim dog and even other people that we spoke with off camera talked about how he dressed as a young kid with, like, fur coats on and, you know, the hats, you know, cocked to the side. And so I think he. I think he liked attention. I think he liked, you know, being in the middle, in the eye of. Middle of the. Of. Of chaos, like, being that kind of eye of the storm. I think that that's a place where he probably feels most comfortable.
- [14:00]
Alison Stewart
Was he playing a role or was that really him, or was it a combo?
- [14:05]
Alexandria Stapleton
Probably a combo, you know, in watching the footage. I mean, he's filmed himself for decades, right?
- [14:10]
Alison Stewart
And you got to look at the footage. That's why I'm asking you. Like, when you look at the footage, you can kind of see.
- [14:14]
Alexandria Stapleton
You can see the different dynamics, right? The levels. I think that. I think he has different modes. And I think when you do reality TV for a very long time, you start to understand, like, when you're being filmed, like, okay, this is really me, but I know I can edit this part out, or, you know, this is me playing to the camera, or, you know, just the different modes that he was in. And we were. It was. It became obvious at certain points with looking at that footage, like, oh, this is really nicked him. You know, I think when you see the lawsuit by Don Richard drop, that is a moment in the footage that we had where it felt like there was an artery that was nicked with that. Like, that really got to him, and he was very upset for whatever reason. And so. And then there's times where, you know, like, in the footage that you rolled, you know, there's a moment in the film where he actually motions to the guy who's shooting to come closer to capture what he's saying. So it's like, I don't. You know, it's a mystery that only he can really answer. Like, how serious does he take things? What is really going on in Sean Combs head?
- [15:20]
Alison Stewart
Yeah. You go back to 1991, and some folks didn't know this on our staff, but being from New York, it was the college crowd riot that happened that he was responsible for in a certain way. It happened at City College. There was. Oh, gosh. It was a City College gymnasium. It was a stampede that occurred outside of it for a show that he was putting on one. Why was it important to include in the documentary? What did you want to show with that?
- [15:51]
Alexandria Stapleton
You know, that the. How the dimensions of, like, Shawn being involved with, like, really, you know, tragic events and how it's almost like, out of tragedy, he's able to, like, chaos is a ladder is like, a saying that I always think of. And I feel like that is kind of like something about Shaun's life. It's like chaos is a ladder. And that was such a horrible incident that, you know, you could argue he was responsible for wasn't. You know, there's a lot of different ways to look at that. Ultimately, he, you know, he was found responsible for overselling those tickets. But how he managed to kind of go out there in public and talk to the press about that event was very fascinating to me because he was like, mea culpa. You know, I'm so. This is horrible. And he kind of has his face that he does and a cadence in his voice when he's. When he's kind of talking to the press and wants everyone to know how much he feels, you know, how awful this is. But when you start to see that pattern, you know, of like, incident after incident after incident and, you know, all the way up to Cassie, the tape that came out where he was, you know, brutally attacking Cassie, and he comes out with an apology video. When you pair that up against the, you know, hit the press conference from 1991 at the City College event, it's almost identical.
- [17:13]
Alison Stewart
Wow.
- [17:14]
Alexandria Stapleton
In its energy. Yeah.
- [17:16]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
We're talking with Alexandria Stapleton. She is the director and executive producer of the series Sean Combs the Reckoning, which is now streaming on Netflix. In the documentary, there's talk of Combs abuse when he wasn't as famous. For example, Joy Dickerson Neal sued Combs under the New York State Adult Survivors act in November of 23. In the lawsuit, she alleged she was drugged and assaulted by him in 1991. Why did Joy Dickerson feel that it was time to come forward?
- [17:48]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, she said that when Cassie dropped her lawsuit, that that gave her the ultimate confidence to come forward, you know, and I think that it was, you know, sort of like a Pandora's box, you know, that opened for him and she found the strength to bring forward her case.
- [18:12]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
She was among the first of a hundred civil cases filed against Combs, including his longtime Garrison. We talked girlfriend. We've talked about her, Kathy Ventura. Why do you think his relationship with Cassie became the focus of the story and the focus of the news?
- [18:29]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, you know, Cassie's very famous. They were very public, very famous couple at the time, you know, during their. Their relationship and, you know, unfortunately for a lot of other victims who don't have that type of, you know, wealth or power or visibility, it's. It on its face. It doesn't feel fair, you know, that so many other people can be victims but don't have that platform. But I think that the flip side of that is because she was so famous and so visible that it also kind of, you know, put a lot of attention on him and gave people like Joy Dickerson Neal, you know, the courage to come forward. So I think that's why the press probably ran with that story. It was. And also the allegations that she made were deeply disturbing. And, you know, it was. I'm not trying to measure pain or anything like that, but the details of the sex workers and details about what was expected of her and all of those types of things. I feel like people. I mean, my mouth was on the. My jaw was on the floor. You know, I think it was very, very peculiar.
- [19:36]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
We've got a sound bite from Joy Dickerson, Neal's mother. She wrote a letter to the Combs parents.
- [19:42]
Alison Stewart
Tell us a little bit about this.
- [19:44]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
Before we play it.
- [19:45]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, Joy found a letter. Her mother had passed away. And she found a letter that was written to Sean's parents. She didn't know that his father had passed away. And it was, it was gut wrenching to hear her read.
- [20:02]
Content Warning Announcer / Interview Facilitator
Let's take a listen.
- [20:04]
Joy Dickerson Neal's Mother
Dear Mr. And Mrs. Combs, I'm writing you to inform you of something that your son did to my daughter. One weekend, while visiting my daughter, I awoke to her screaming in the middle of the night. She told me that she was dreaming about Puffy. I asked her why she was screaming and who is this Puffy person that he would cause her to have nightmares. I was shocked and mortified to hear her story. She told me that several people have come to her to inform her that your son has made an obscene videotape of her without her knowledge. He videotaped him doing something sexual to her. Apparently your son shows these tapes at parties on large screen televisions. I realize that this may be hard for you to believe, but if I hadn't heard this story from my daughter's own mouth and looked into her eyes, I would have scarcely believed that any individual would compromise another person's dignity in this manner.
- [21:32]
Alison Stewart
You hear how important dignity is to her. Why is that?
- [21:37]
Alexandria Stapleton
You know, that's what, that's what her mother instilled in her. And Joy was, you know, from Harlem and didn't grow up with much, but the one thing that, that she said that, you know, her mother made sure that her and her. That her kids had, was dignity.
- [21:53]
Alison Stewart
In this four part docu series, there's lots of great archival footage and audio and images from all sorts, all different periods of his life. Why was it so important to tell the story in images?
- [22:11]
Alexandria Stapleton
Well, I think that that helps, you know, it helps people connect to the material on a visceral level.
- [22:18]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Yeah.
- [22:20]
Alexandria Stapleton
When you can actually see things and feel like you're there.
- [22:23]
Alison Stewart
Did you have any sort of rule of thumb or any kind of rules about when to use these old photographs?
- [22:31]
Alexandria Stapleton
As much as we could. You know, the archival team on this project and my editors, you know, we had so much footage. I mean, there's so much that didn't even make it into the series. And I feel like. I feel like that's why it's potentially connecting with people and people that don't even follow hip hop or don't even know anything about Sean Combs. Because you really are taken back to these time periods and kind of going through understanding on a macro level what he was doing as he's gaining notoriety and fame and fortune, but the underbelly of that and I think to be able to expose him in his very public life. You know, there's a clip with Andy Cohen that we used, and it's intercut with this perfume ad with him and Cassie. And they're like, running around and like, you know, and kind of being very sexual. And it gets sort of like flirts with violence in a kind of, you know, disturbing way. And then, you know, we cut to him on Watch what Happens Live. I love that show. But. And of course, you know, he was a guest and he's like, that's like a fantasy of mine, you know, that's. That's. And you're seeing, like these kind of layers and like, wow, he's like telling you in open, you know, out in public, like, what he. What he likes. And he's selling product, you know, with this woman that he's doing all of this stuff with. And so we felt that that was really fascinating to kind of play with all of those types of things.
- [24:06]
Alison Stewart
What did you learn working on this?
- [24:11]
Alexandria Stapleton
That's a really good question. I learned a lot of things. I was also in New York during that time period and, you know, kind of trying to work in the film industry. And so it brought up a lot of memories for me. I mean, I think in a post, Me too world, the question is, like, how. How far have we come? And I think the answer is maybe not far enough.
- [24:40]
Alison Stewart
The name of the series is Sean Combs the Reckoning. I've been speaking with its director and executive producer, Alexandria Stapleton. Thank you for coming to the studio today.
- [24:49]
Alexandria Stapleton
Thank you so much for having me.
- [24:51]
LifeLock Announcer
The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost fund. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals with LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com SPECIALOFFER TERMS APPLY Since WNYC's.
- [25:22]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
First broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.