Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart
Episode Title: A Descent Into Lewy Body Dementia in 'Counting Backwards'
Release Date: April 7, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Binny Kirschenbaum, Author of Counting Backwards
Introduction and Episode Overview
The episode begins with Alison Stewart welcoming listeners and outlining upcoming conversations, including discussions about the film Warfare, artist Amy Sherrid's new show at the Whitney, and a book club preview featuring The Dream Hotel by Leila Lalami.
Introducing Counting Backwards
At [01:31], Layla Lalami introduces Counting Backwards, a novel inspired by Binna Kirschenbaum's personal experience with her husband's battle against early-onset Lewy Body Dementia (LBD). The novel follows Addie, a New York City artist, and her husband Leo, a research scientist, as Leo grapples with hallucinations and cognitive decline.
Author’s Decision: Novel vs. Memoir
At [02:35], Kirschenbaum explains her preference for crafting a novel over a memoir. She states, “I'm never interested in writing memoir. My imagination just goes off in different directions” (02:40). This creative freedom allowed her to explore "what if" scenarios, adding depth and dramatic elements absent in her real-life experience.
Creative Process and Fictionalization
When discussing her writing process, Kirschenbaum reveals that while her husband's LBD inspired the novel, she fictionalized much of the narrative. At [05:53], she mentions, “I fictionalized a lot really, the vast majority of the book” to enhance plot progression and emotional impact. This approach enabled her to delve deeper into the characters' psychological landscapes.
Feelings of Betrayal and Honoring Her Husband
In an emotional moment at [06:37], Kirschenbaum shares her initial feeling of betrayal: “I felt like I was exposing him, and particularly because so much of it is made up, and in some ways the worst of it is made up” (06:50). Despite creating fictional elements, she believes her husband would have supported her creative expression.
Reading Excerpts and Character Development
Kirschenbaum reads an excerpt titled Tonight or Tomorrow at [07:47], illustrating the profound emotional struggles faced by Addie as she witnesses Leo’s decline. The passage captures the intimate and painful moments leading up to Leo's death, highlighting the novel's raw portrayal of caregiving and loss.
Characterization of Leo and Pre-Illness Life
At [11:07], Kirschenbaum describes Leo as a “very happy” individual with a “satisfied” marriage, emphasizing their strong mutual dependency and active social life (11:18). Leo's kindness, quirkiness, and supportive nature make his deterioration all the more heartbreaking.
Hallucinations and Artistic Influence
The discussion moves to Leo’s hallucinations, such as seeing “Gandhi stirring lentils” (11:50), which play a significant role in the narrative. Kirschenbaum explains that Addie utilizes these hallucinations to inspire her art, particularly when she faces artistic blocks, thereby intertwining Leo’s experiences with her creative process.
Exploring the Medical System’s Limitations
Kirschenbaum delves into the challenges of diagnosing LBD at [14:55], highlighting how the erratic and varied symptoms complicate accurate diagnosis. She states, “the doctors kept asking about that because that's symptom one, and because he wasn't having that, they were dismissing that possibility” (16:00), underscoring systemic issues within medical diagnostics.
The Role of New York City in the Novel
At [16:25], Kirschenbaum discusses how New York City serves as both a backdrop and a character in the novel. The city’s dual nature of fostering community while also facilitating isolation mirrors Addie and Leo’s personal struggles. The abundance of resources, from specialized clinics to vibrant social circles, provides both support and complexity to their lives.
Maintaining Personal Interests Amidst Decline
Leo's enduring love for books is explored at [17:57], symbolizing his deep connection to knowledge and learning. Kirschenbaum reflects, “when you're so connected to something... it almost becomes a part of you” (18:11), illustrating how losing his ability to read signifies a profound loss of identity.
Emotional Turmoil and Caregiver’s Struggles
Addie’s emotional journey, including moments of intense frustration and anger, is examined at [19:13]. Kirschenbaum explains that Addie’s rage is directed not at Leo but at the overwhelming circumstances: “fury at the world, fury at what's happening, that her life is falling apart” (19:37). This authenticity portrays the complex emotions faced by caregivers.
Social Isolation Post-Diagnosis
Post-diagnosis, Addie and Leo experience a withdrawal of friends, which Kirschenbaum attributes to societal discomfort and pity surrounding LBD. At [20:45], she notes, “I think when studies are done... they just don't know what it is,” highlighting the social stigmas and misunderstandings that lead to their isolation.
Reception of the Novel
Despite critical acclaim, Kirschenbaum mentions at [21:50] that she hasn’t received personal accounts from families dealing with LBD. However, she feels reassured by the positive responses from critics and acquaintances, suggesting the novel resonates on a universal emotional level.
Innovative Writing Style: Second Person Narrative
The unique second-person narrative choice is discussed at [22:23]. Kirschenbaum explains her instinctive move to "you" was a way to bridge emotional distance without becoming overly sentimental. She states, “the you created enough distance to keep it from being sentimental” (22:26), ultimately finding that this perspective allowed deeper connection with the character.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps
- “I'm never interested in writing memoir. My imagination just goes off in different directions.” – Binny Kirschenbaum [02:40]
- “I felt like I was exposing him... I was lying about him in a way.” – Binny Kirschenbaum [06:50]
- “The you created enough distance to keep it from being sentimental.” – Binny Kirschenbaum [22:26]
- “Fury at the world, fury at what's happening, that her life is falling apart.” – Binny Kirschenbaum [19:37]
Conclusion
The episode offers a profound exploration of Binny Kirschenbaum's Counting Backwards, intertwining personal narrative with broader themes of medical uncertainty, artistic expression, and the emotional complexities of caregiving. Through intimate storytelling and innovative narrative techniques, the novel presents a heartfelt portrayal of love, loss, and resilience within the bustling yet isolating environment of New York City.
Additional Notes
- Podcast Structure: The episode effectively balances personal storytelling with thematic discussions, providing listeners with both emotional depth and intellectual insight.
- Relevance: The conversation sheds light on Lewy Body Dementia, a lesser-known neurological disorder, thereby raising awareness and fostering empathy.
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