A Gilded Age Queer Love Story in 'Mutual Interest'

Summary

All Of It: A Gilded Age Queer Love Story in 'Mutual Interest'

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Olivia Wolfgang Smith, Author of Mutual Interest
Release Date: March 6, 2025

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Introduction to Mutual Interest

At [00:38], host Alison Stewart introduces the episode by highlighting Mutual Interest, a novel by Olivia Wolfgang Smith. The story is set in the twilight of New York City's Gilded Age and revolves around three queer protagonists navigating societal expectations and personal secrets.

"The new novel Mutual Interest by Olivia Wolfgang Smith follows three New Yorkers trying to make money at the tail end of the Gilded Age. And they all have a secret." – Alison Stewart [00:38]

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Guest Introduction: Olivia Wolfgang Smith

Olivia Wolfgang Smith joins the studio to discuss her book and the inspirations behind it. She delves into the historical nuances and personal motivations that shaped her narrative.

"Thank you so much for having me." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [02:05]

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Inspiration Behind the Novel

Olivia explains that the seed for Mutual Interest was a historical anecdote about William Proctor and James Gamble of Procter & Gamble fame. Initially rivals in the candle and soap industries, their eventual partnership inspired the complex relationships in her novel.

"The main seed was this little piece of historical trivia... One was a candle maker, one was a soap maker... I obviously took that and ran very far with it, made it a true love story." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [02:09]

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Research Process

Smith discusses her extensive research into the Gilded Age, emphasizing her lifelong fascination with the period's material culture and aesthetics. She highlights how specific plot points, such as a public altercation at the New York Aquarium, were meticulously researched to ensure historical accuracy.

"Research kind of happened in phases for this project... I got to do a little bit of a research scavenger hunt... ended up with the New York Aquarium, which at the time was down in Battery Park at Castle Garden." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [02:53]

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Literary Influences

Edith Wharton emerges as a significant influence on Smith's writing style, particularly The Decoration of Houses. Wharton's strong opinions on societal norms and interior decor inspired the authoritative voice present in Mutual Interest.

"Edith Wharton probably most of all... her fiction was a huge inspiration." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [04:10]
"She's very against sliding doors, hates sliding doors. So that book was actually a huge inspiration." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [04:30]

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Depiction of Queer Life in the Gilded Age

Smith reflects on the challenges of portraying queer life in the historical context, noting the resilience and ingenuity of queer communities despite societal constraints. She acknowledges the complexities of labels and identities that have evolved over time.

"Queer people of all persuasions and personalities were making lives for themselves all over the city then as now." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [04:57]
"It's a lot of great expertise from historians that I... lean on in learning about this." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [04:57]

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Character Analysis

Vivian: The Ambitious Inventor

Vivian is portrayed as a driven individual seeking to reinvent herself in New York City. Her ambition and strategic alliances, particularly her marriage to Oscar, reflect her desire for control and stability.

"She wants to be able to invent herself... very intense, almost like Machiavellian person." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [07:51]

Oscar: The Repressed Entrepreneur

Oscar grapples with his concealed sexuality while striving to maintain his successful soap and perfume business. His internal struggle and vulnerability make him susceptible to Vivian's influence.

"He's really uncomfortable with himself and trying very hard to repress himself." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [09:24]

Squire: The Eccentric Heir

Squire, born into old money, exhibits obsessive interests and seeks community acceptance. His character explores themes of identity and belonging within the rigid structures of high society.

"He's searching for understanding and community... part of his mother's maiden name." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [10:55]

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Themes Explored in Mutual Interest

Smith weaves themes of identity, secrecy, and societal pressure throughout her novel. The personal care industry serves as a metaphor for self-expression and the capitalist forces that often suppress it.

"The way that it is sort of like this double-edged sword of being a tool of self-expression and maybe gender expression." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [06:45]

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Narrative Style and Voice

Smith employs a high omniscient narrator with an intrusive voice, reminiscent of early 20th-century social satire. This narrative choice allows for deep character insights and societal commentary.

"It's a very strong voiced novel... a pastiche of this style that was common to turn of the century novels." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [12:03]

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Risks of Exposure for Characters

The potential exposure of Vivian, Oscar, and Squire's relationships and business dealings poses significant threats to their personal and professional lives. Smith highlights the delicate balance they maintain to protect their secrets.

"There are obvious legal, reputational, physical safety risks to their queer domestic romantic sexual relationship coming out." – Olivia Wolfgang Smith [14:02]

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Conclusion

Olivia Wolfgang Smith's Mutual Interest offers a compelling exploration of queer life and ambitious enterprise in the Gilded Age. Through meticulously researched historical details and richly developed characters, the novel delves into the complexities of identity and societal expectations.

To delve deeper into this intricate love story and its historical backdrop, listeners are encouraged to read Mutual Interest and attend Olivia Wolfgang Smith’s upcoming book discussion at Pete's Candy Store in Brooklyn on March 20, 2025.

"To find out what happens, you should read Mutual Interest." – Alison Stewart [14:02]

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections, focusing solely on the substantive discussion between Alison Stewart and Olivia Wolfgang Smith.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The new novel Mutual Interest by Olivia Wolfgang Smith follows three New Yorkers trying to make money at the tail end of the Gilded Age. And they all have a secret. There's Vivian, who has fled a pretty boring life in Utica to come to the big city. She's used her secret romantic relationships with wealthy women to help elevate her status in society. But now she needs a husband to give her financial stability. Vivian chooses Oscar, a neurotic businessman. Oscar is closeted, and Vivian thinks that by getting married, they can each continue their lives. Oscar's soap and perfume business started off as a success, but he soon runs into a big problem. A man named Squire, the son of a very wealthy old money family, is buying up all the materials that Oscar needs. Squire is an eccentric man with a passion for making scented candles. The only problem, they smell disgusting. Vivian decides to transform Oscar and Squire from enemies to business partners. And soon that partnership is not strictly about business. But in Gilded Age New York, exposure threatens to ruin everything Oscar, Vivian and Squire have built. Mutual Interest is out now. And on Thursday, March 20, Olivia Wolfgang Smith will be speaking at Pete's Candy Store in Brooklyn. But first, she joins me now in studio. It's very nice to meet you.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

So what was the seed of the idea for this novel?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

There are a few answers to that. I think that the, the main seed was this little piece of historical trivia, which is that William Proctor and James Gamble, who we know as Procter and Gamble, started out as professional nemeses before they were business partners. So that's kind of as it's presented in the novel. One was a candle maker, one was a soap maker. They had this supply chain conflict where they had common raw materials. What happened historically is that they happened to marry a pair of sisters. And once they were in the same family, the kind of forced proximity convinced them that they should be collaborating rather than enemies. I obviously took that and ran very far with it, made it a true love story. But that's the seed of the idea.

[Alison Stewart]

So where did you go? I mean, it's a love story, but you Obviously have to have the Gilded Age details. Where did you do your research?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Research kind of happened in phases for this project. And I think the first phase arguably has been going on most of my life, which is just a real interest and obsession with like this time period. Things written in it, things written about it. So every time I've ever gone to a museum or browsed through an archive, I've been very interested in the material culture and the aesthetics and just the worlds that this is set in. And that kind of gave me. When I decided to start writing this book, I wasn't just having like talking heads in a white room, but. And as I was writing and drafting the research came sort of more directed by the characters and the plot of the book itself. So like for instance, about a third of the way through the novel, there's this kind of characters have an emotional and physical altercation in a very public space in New York. And I kind of got to do a little bit of a research scavenger hunt where I was going to museums and browsing the public library archives thinking, what's the most interesting place that they can have this like public fight in 1905? And ended up with the. Of the New York Aquarium, which at the time was down in Battery park at Castle Garden.

[Alison Stewart]

What books did you read about this age before you even started this book that really just sort of got your fires ignited to write?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Well, there are a lot of folks I'm cribbing from stylistically. Edith Wharton probably most of all.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

I was gonna say.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yeah, her fiction was a huge inspiration. And then especially Audley, her book she co wrote before she was ever a novelist. The Decoration of Houses, which is like an interior decor manual.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

I didn't know that.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Wow. Yeah. And it's like very kind of full of these very like Wharton esque, strong opinions about what people should and should not be doing. Although in this case it's about how to like decorate your parlor and like what kind of upholstery you should have on certain things. She's very against sliding doors, hates sliding doors. So that book was actually a huge inspiration and I kind of gave some of her opinions to various characters.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, what did you learn? What life would be like for queer New Yorkers during this period.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yeah, Doing research into queer life and queer community in this historical era can be a very intense experience. It can be a very joyful experience. It was kind of therapeutic for me a lot of the time. There were certain kind of centers of queer life that I kind of knew about going into it in lower Manhattan and in Harlem and on the Brooklyn waterfront. But really the headline overall was that queer people of all persuasions and personalities were making lives for themselves all over the city then as now. And that can be a little bit hard to ascertain in the historical record. Labels and identities have shifted. Things are left out on purpose or with malicious intent by people outside the community. But yeah, there's a lot of great expertise from historians that I, as a layperson novelist, am able to lean on in learning about this historian.

[Alison Stewart]

It was sort of interesting because Vivian sometimes lived with her female lovers, whereas Oscar his were more in secret. Was there a differentiation between women and men?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yeah, I think that there was much more sort of legal policing of male homosexuality. And the way that women like Vivian in the novel, we're sort of often able to get away with a little bit more.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, two women living together, right?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yeah, yeah. There's a little bit more of fuzziness of what people sort of thought was going on. So what she was able to. Yeah, to get away with.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm speaking with Olivia Wolfgang Smith, author of the new book Mutual Interests, about three gay people who enter into a business arrangement in gilded age New York and are hoping to avoid being outed by high society soap and candle making. Does that relate back to the procter and gamble of it all?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yes. Yeah, that is part of it. That I kind of started starting with that idea, beginning knowing that that was the business that those two men were in. That's where I began. Obviously. I guess I could have changed that to a different industry if I had wanted to. But I found myself very compelled by that field as to be the one that these three queer people were collaborating in and building this business empire. Something about the way that. That. Yeah, personal care industry. Right. So like cosmetics, soap, candles, fragrances. The way that it is sort of like this double edged sword of being a tool of self expression and maybe gender expression and maybe like particularly resonant for queer people. And the tension against how that industry from the very beginning has been used as a source of kind of like capitalist manipulation of shame to sort of make people not want to express themselves or to try to like fit a more societal, standardized norm. I just found that like a very compelling tension for these characters to be working through.

[Alison Stewart]

When we first meet Vivian, what does she want out of life?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Oh, gosh, I think she wants to be able to invent herself, I guess, to invent a new life for herself. We meet her as a very like ambitious, driven force of nature coming out of central New York, basically running away from home as a teenager. She gets to New York City on vacation with a wealthy friend and just doesn't leave.

[Alison Stewart]

Right.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

So, yeah, I think that she's a little bit of a. I've heard her described as ahead of her time, which I kind of get in the sense that she is very ambitious and has expectations that she should be in control of her own life. That kind of don't fit her gender and societal moment historically. But I think that she would kind of be a standout in any era. That she's like this very intense, almost like Machiavellian person.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, how do her desires line up with the goals of being the new wife of Oscar?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

I think that she understands that past a person, a certain point because of where and when she lives. She needs to have a man who she can kind of be the mastermind, like puppet master of. And Oscar is a great candidate for that as he's very kind of like vulnerable to suggestion. Yes, that's right. So, yeah, they are great partners in that way where it's very much not an equal partnership. But I think they both understand and are comfortable with their roles.

[Alison Stewart]

There you learned that Oscar has known from a young age that he was gay. This is a line you write. The revelation of his own queerness clocked him like a sucker punch.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

How does he cope with how he feels about himself? How does Oscar cope with how he feels about himself?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

That's kind of the project of his life. That's sort of the evolution of his coping is sort of one of his main stories throughout the book. I think that early on when we're first meeting him, he's really uncomfortable with himself and trying very hard to repress himself, quite unsuccessfully and having a lot of fun during the times that he's not repressing himself. But yeah, sort of trying to outrun and escape and always being like, heading to New York for him is a kind of trying to get out, get away from himself in that way.

[Alison Stewart]

And our third person is Squire. Is sex or romance? Is that really his priority?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

So Squire grows up kind of in quarantine. I would say he's a very eccentric young man in a very old money, like, pseudo aristocratic family and is kind of. He has all of these obsessive hobbies and hyper fixations and his parents are afraid of him as like a potential social scandal. So sort of keep him away from others. So I don't think that he sort of has time before we meet him, like before the book starts. He's not really had an opportunity to ascertain what his priorities are in regard to other people, including romantically. So that's kind of one of his projects over the course of the book, is to kind of find a place where he can be his. His eccentric self in community.

[Alison Stewart]

Why did you name him Squire?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

There's a. It's a very, very small kind of throwaway moment that passes in the book, but it's actually part of his mother's maiden name. I just felt that he had come from, of course, come from a class where that was likely to have been part of how he was named. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

You mention all of his obsessions, his obsessions with trains and I think, sewer systems. And, you know, one or two reviews have noted that possibly he had undiagnosed autism. Was that ever part of your plan?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yeah, I think that if Squire were alive today, it is likely that he would have been diagnosed somewhere on the autism spectrum. I think that part of what this book is about is about identities and labels and the ways that they maybe, like, don't always overlap. Precisely that people of all types have existed as long as people have existed, whatever the shifting labels might be. So, yeah, that's one way that I think that Squire is certainly kind of like searching for understanding and community, as many of the characters are in this book in different ways.

[Alison Stewart]

Who is the narrator of your book?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

That's such a good question. I appreciate that sort of accusatory way of asking, who is the narrator? I've started to hear this from different folks in similar ways. This book has a very high omniscient narrator who knows everything about our three protagonists, but also secondary tertiary characters, all of time and space going backward and forward, and is also a very intrusive narrator. So we'll kind of like butt into the action to sort of comment on and push back on things the characters are saying, sort of bring up some hypocrisies or context that the characters might be wishing wouldn't be brought up. And, yeah, I think that it's a very strong voice. So I understand why people are curious about who the narrator is. There's not one answer to the question. I think that, if anything, as I've been thinking about it, as people have been beginning to ask, I have a sense of sort of like queer historical collective and the idea of this sort of commentary of queer community in the past and future, watching this love story unfold between these three people. But really I was. I started because it's like a pastiche of this style that was common to turn of the century novels of having these very omniscient, kind of intrusive, affectionately judgmental, kind of like social satire narrators. And it was just such a pleasure to write. I really ran away with it once.

[Alison Stewart]

I was going, it's so funny that so many people have had that reaction. Yeah, I just said something about the time or something about the way books are written now or the way books were written then.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Yeah, I think it was much more common then than it is now and that might be part of it. But yeah, it's a very strong voiced novel and I think it makes sense that it is a question that is begged.

[Alison Stewart]

So we've got all the main characters. The big question is what risk does exposure pose to Oscar, Vivian and Squire?

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Wow, that's a very multivalent question because they're collaborating in a lot of, a lot of different projects that are all to some extent secret. So there are, there are obvious legal, reputational, physical safety risks to their queer domestic romantic sexual relationship coming out. And then also their business relationship is also a little bit honestly scandalous given the fact that Vivian is sort of like the head of the empire kind of acting behind the of Squire and Oscar. So yeah, I think that they are, they are working in a very delicate balance in a lot of different ways.

[Alison Stewart]

To find out what happens, you should read Mutual Interest. It is by my guest, Olivia Wolfgang Smith.

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Thank you so much for being with us.

[Alison Stewart]

We appreciate it.

[Olivia Wolfgang Smith]

Thank you so much for having me.

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