Podcast Summary

Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Episode: A Harrowing Inside Look at the Russia-Ukraine War
Date: November 30, 2023
Guest: Mstislav Chernov, Director of 20 Days in Mariupol

Episode Overview

This episode features a powerful conversation between host Alison Stewart and journalist/documentary filmmaker Mstislav Chernov, whose film 20 Days in Mariupol chronicles the first three weeks of the Russian siege on Mariupol in early 2022. The discussion provides an unflinching look at the human costs of the conflict, the challenges of frontline war reporting, the importance and risks of documenting atrocities, and the battle to communicate truth amid propaganda and information warfare.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Importance of Mariupol—Before the Siege

• Mariupol’s Unique Status

  • Mariupol was a symbol for Ukraine: a thriving, progressive city near the front lines since 2014 but, until 2022, unoccupied by Russia (03:53).
  • "Culturally, economically and just morally, it was ... advanced, it was booming—and it's all destroyed now." (03:53) — Mstislav Chernov

• Perceived Russian Threat

  • The threat from Russia was constant and well-understood by local residents because Mariupol was strategically located, both logistically (on the way to Crimea) and symbolically (previously targeted in 2014) (05:05).
  • "Everybody understood that sooner or later the escalation will happen ... those people who kind of really thought this through, understood that Mariupol will be the primary target." (05:05) — Mstislav Chernov

The Decision to Stay—Journalism Under Fire

• Returning to a Familiar Battleground

  • Chernov, despite covering wars globally, felt compelled to return to Ukraine yearly due to personal and professional connections, especially to Mariupol (06:12).
  • It was “a gut feeling that we need to be there ... if the full-scale invasion starts” (06:12).

• A City Under Siege & The Isolation of Journalists

  • The AP team led by Chernov was the only group of journalists in a city of 500,000 once the siege began (07:28, 09:35).
  • "It's very improbable that there are only three active journalists in the city like that in the war zone. But it happened. And ... there was no anonymity anymore." (09:35)
  • "Information is a target, therefore, information is a weapon, therefore, journalists are the targets." (09:57)

Capturing Atrocity—Ethical Dilemmas and Motivations

• Documenting Painful Realities

  • The film contains harrowing images of bombed hospitals, injured children and deeply personal moments of loss, but the urgency to inform the world outweighed the pain of recording them (10:56).
  • "It was absolutely crucial to make sure that we bring unsanitized, truthful reporting to as many people as possible across the world and as quickly as possible because these atrocities were unfolding in front of us." (10:56)

• The Power and Responsibility of Bearing Witness

  • Filming served not just as documentation but as a plea for global awareness and potential intervention.
  • Chernov emphasizes that, despite trauma, the sense of community and hope is visible in those moments (13:54).
  • "All of those people who were suffering ... they were never alone. You can see how they are surrounded by the community ..." (13:54)

On Making the Documentary—Why “Staying” Matters

• Lingering, Not Turning Away
  • The host, Alison Stewart, highlights the value of not turning away from tragedy: "Staying on certain images for an extra beat ... was really important because it made the point that just because the camera turns away ... doesn't mean it stopped happening." (14:23)
  • Chernov agrees: "We rarely get enough context ... documentary is very important for tragedies like Mariupol ... we spend time with people. We don't just see pictures, we see real people." (14:23–15:49)
  • “We have to make sure that their tragedies are not forgotten, or at least ... that people learn something from them.” (15:49)

The Struggle to Get Images—and the Stakes

• Technical and Physical Risks
  • Sending footage under siege involved climbing buildings or hiding in bombed-out grocery stores to catch a faint signal, splitting video into 10-second segments to transmit them by phone (16:33).
  • The physical danger was ever-present: “You get shot by sniper or you get bombed by mortar ... under bombing and under stress.” (16:33)
  • Smuggling original footage for future investigations meant running a deadly gauntlet: "100 kilometers of occupied territory and 15 Russian checkpoints ... Mantas Kudaravius ... was trying to leave and he was just executed on the Russian checkpoint." (16:33–19:24)

The Information War—Propaganda and Counter-Narratives

• Russian Disinformation
  • Russian officials tried to immediately dismiss footage, accusing victims and journalists of staging events (19:55).
  • Chernov anticipated such pushback, recalling the 2014 downing of MH17 and subsequent Russian propaganda (20:00).
  • "It's not our job to fight propaganda. It's our job to ... give as much context as possible ... so people will ... make their own informed understanding of what's the reality." (20:00)
  • Including Russian denials in the film was a deliberate editorial choice: "We wanted to show all the versions, ... without moralizing the audience, without pointing fingers, how things unfolded and what were their reactions." (20:00–22:17)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the spirit of Mariupol before war:

  • "Culturally, economically and just morally, it was ... advanced, it was booming—and it's all destroyed now." (03:53) — Mstislav Chernov

• On the role and risk of journalists:

  • "If you're alone [journalist in the city], then you become a direct target ... information is a weapon, therefore, journalists are the targets." (09:35–09:57) — Mstislav Chernov

• On filming atrocity for the wider world:

  • "The need and the urgency to keep reporting was incredibly strong ... because these atrocities ... were unfolding in front of us." (10:56–13:54) — Mstislav Chernov

• On the power of lingering with the image:

  • "Just because the camera turns away from it doesn't mean it stopped happening or that it didn't happen." (14:23) — Alison Stewart (Host)
  • "We rarely get enough context ... we don't just see pictures, we see real people ... we have to make sure that their tragedies are not forgotten." (14:23–15:49) — Mstislav Chernov

• On Russian disinformation:

  • "I did expect something like this is going to happen ... but again, as international journalists ... it's not our job to fight propaganda. It's our job to give as much context as possible." (20:00) — Mstislav Chernov

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Mariupol's Pre-War Life & Threats – (03:45–06:12)
• Decision to Report and the Siege Begins – (06:12–09:35)
• Journalists as Targets/Isolation – (09:35–09:57)
• Ethics of Filming Atrocity & Community Resilience – (10:56–13:54)
• The Importance of “Staying with the Image” & Documentary Context – (14:23–15:49)
• Challenges in Smuggling Images Out – (16:33–19:24)
• Information War & Russian Disinformation – (19:55–22:17)

Tone & Language

The conversation is measured, somber, and direct, matching the gravity of the subject. Chernov conveys both the trauma and the responsibility of witnessing, documenting, and sharing the truth, without hyperbole but invariably with compassion and resolve. The host, Alison Stewart, mirrors this tone—respectful, searching, and insistent on the importance of looking directly at the realities the film presents.

For listeners/readers who haven’t seen the film or experienced frontline journalism, this conversation is a testament to the stakes of war reporting: that capturing and conveying truth can require real danger, moral decision-making, and a profound belief in the world’s capacity to care—even when such hope feels fragile.