A Sketch Artist's Account of the Courtroom

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: All Of It (WNYC)

Episode Title: A Sketch Artist's Account of the Courtroom
Air Date: August 9, 2024
Host: Koosha Navadar, in for Alison Stewart
Guest: Jane Rosenberg, courtroom sketch artist and author of Drawn: My Four Decades as a Courtroom Sketch Artist

---

Overview

This episode delves into the life and work of Jane Rosenberg, renowned courtroom sketch artist, as she shares insights from her upcoming memoir chronicling over 40 years inside America’s most high-profile courtrooms. The discussion touches on her evolution as an artist, the technical and ethical challenges of the job, memorable experiences with public figures, and the critical role of courtroom art in chronicling justice when cameras are not allowed.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Beginnings and Inspiration

• Why Write the Memoir Now?
  • Jane writes to answer the abundant curiosity about her life and craft. Her growing collection of works and a push from a literary agent finally prompted her to share her story.
    • "I felt I had a story to tell. I went and looked at all my thousands of sketches...I know people are interested in what I do and how I do it." (03:21 – Jane Rosenberg)
• Entry into Courtroom Art:
  • Jane’s transition from portrait artist to courtroom sketch artist came through friends in law and self-driven inquiry at New York City's night court, ultimately leading her to pitch her work to NBC.
    • "I had friends who were lawyers and took me to night court...I called NBC, and they said, come on in. Let's see what you got." (04:41 – Jane Rosenberg)

2. Memories Encapsulated in Art

• Recollection Through Sketches:
  • Rosenberg’s detailed recall of courtroom moments is triggered by looking at her own art, each drawing encapsulating vivid, personal memories of that day or trial.
    • "I look at my sketches, I can remember." (06:12 – Jane Rosenberg)

3. Evolution of the Job

• Technological Changes:
  • The presence of monitors, laptops, and equipment now crowds courtrooms and alters her field of vision, adding new challenges compared to sparsely furnished courts of the 1980s.
    • "Now it's 24/7, so I really have to keep turning them out all day long." (08:46 – Jane Rosenberg)
    • "Now...every table [has] computer monitor and a laptop and whatever else...it’s a whole new modern technology world." (09:30 – Jane Rosenberg)
• Adapting to Time Constraints:
  • Earlier, she had hours to finish a sketch; now, deadlines are incessant, often hour-by-hour for digital media cycles.

4. Technique and Challenge in Sketching

• Capturing Likeness as Subjects Move:
  • Working quickly, often with only fleeting views of defendants or witnesses, requires strong memory and anatomical understanding.
    • "I would love for people to hold still, but they don't...If I don’t, I'm gonna have a warp drawing." (14:56 – Jane Rosenberg)
• Objectivity in Art:
  • Rosenberg emphasizes her role is documentation, not caricature or commentary, especially with polarizing subjects like Donald Trump.
    • "My job is to show what's happening, not to infuse my emotions into a drawing." (16:52 – Jane Rosenberg)
    • "I'm not a caricaturist, so that's never my goal...I'm just drawing whatever's happening." (21:43 – Jane Rosenberg)

5. Memorable Moments and Notable Cases

• Donald Trump’s Arraignment:
  • Jane had unique pressures sketching Trump, given pre-existing public curiosity and the trial's spectacle. She benefited, unusually, from having more time due to lengthy courtroom proceedings.
    • "I had already drawn a cover illustration for New York magazine...so this time it was from life...in this Trump arraignment, I had a much longer time because they...read off 34 counts one by one." (11:14 – Jane Rosenberg)
• The Viral Tom Brady Sketch:
  • An unintended viral moment: her quick courtroom sketch of Tom Brady drew online mockery and memes. She describes learning about meme culture by seeing her art become one.
    • "I didn't even know what a meme was...People really were, like, mocking it and making...pictures of The Scream with Tom Brady's head on it." (18:59 – Jane Rosenberg)

6. Ethics, Emotions, and the Human Element

• On Not Letting Personal Bias Show:
  • Emphasizes impartiality, though styled with emotion and realism based on what she observes—not on how she might feel about a defendant.
• Changes in Perspective on Justice:
  • Early revulsion at defense lawyers defending notorious criminals evolved into understanding the essential checks and balances of the justice system—highlighted by her marriage to a defense attorney.
    • "There has to be checks and balances...the jury will decide what the truth is. And they usually get it right. Not always, but usually." (22:19 – Jane Rosenberg)
• On the Non-Revealing Faces of the Guilty:
  • Cites figures like Bernie Madoff as examples that faces don't necessarily betray criminal intent.
    • "It's very hard to read a face. Look at Bernie Madoff. He would look like a nice old man. He did not betray nothing...So you can't always tell what a person’s like." (23:16 – Jane Rosenberg)

7. The Continued Value and Future of Courtroom Art

• Why Not Just Photos?
  • Cameras remain banned in many courtrooms, especially federal ones, preserving a space for courtroom sketch artists.
    • "Photos, cameras can’t get into any federal courthouses...so sometimes they get in [in state court]...but the sketch went viral." (24:09 – Jane Rosenberg)
• Rewarding Aspects:
  • Jane feels fortunate to do work she loves that also provides a service and tangible connection with people.
    • "I'm very lucky. I make a living at doing what I love to do. And that's rewarding in itself...It’s, you know, social service in a way." (24:45 – Jane Rosenberg)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Objectivity:

  • "My job is to show what's happening, not to infuse my emotions into a drawing." (16:52 – Jane Rosenberg)

• On Going Viral with Tom Brady:

  • "I didn't even know what a meme was. I had done the sketch...and he opened his laptop and said, 'Oh, this thing has gone viral.'” (18:59 – Jane Rosenberg)

• On the Faces of Criminals:

  • "It's very hard to read a face. Look at Bernie Madoff...his face did not show what he had done." (23:16 – Jane Rosenberg)

• On the Rewards of the Craft:

  • "I'm serving people. People have a need and they appreciate me. And that's a wonderful gift that I have." (24:45 – Jane Rosenberg)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:21] – Why Jane wrote the memoir
• [04:41] – Becoming a courtroom artist: the NBC story
• [06:12] – Sketches as repositories of memory
• [08:46] – Deadlines and changes in courtroom setups
• [11:14] – Sketching Trump’s arraignment
• [14:56] – Sketching moving subjects; the importance of memory
• [16:52] – Avoiding inserting emotion or caricature into work
• [18:59] – The viral Tom Brady sketch and learning about memes
• [22:19] – How her view of the justice system has changed
• [23:16] – Human faces and the inscrutability of guilt
• [24:09] – Legal reasons for courtroom sketch art’s persistence
• [24:45] – The most rewarding aspects of her career

---

Conclusion

Jane Rosenberg’s career as a courtroom sketch artist offers a unique window onto history, law, and the subtle complexity of representing truth through art. Her work captures not only the likenesses of famous and infamous figures, but also the mood, drama, and humanity in the courtroom—a vital service now, as ever, in the age of restricted camera access.

Drawn: My Four Decades as a Courtroom Sketch Artist will be available August 13, 2024.

---

Transcript

[Uncle]

I' ma put you on, nephew.

[Jane Rosenberg]

All right, unc. Welcome to McDonald's.

[McDonald's Employee]

Can I take your order, miss?

[Uncle]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

[Jane Rosenberg]

A BetterHelp ad.

[Ad Narrator]

Louis Capaldi partnered with BetterHelp to get.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Word out about how important therapy can be.

[BetterHelp Testimonial Speaker]

I struggle most weeks to like get up, get myself up and ready and go to therapy or whatever. Like even like opening the laptop to talk to my therapist sometimes can be really difficult. But I do it because I realize how important it is for me to continue to feel good. I felt the best I felt in a long time through therapy.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Learn more about online [e-mail].

[Uncle]

Listener support WNYC Studios.

[Koosha Navadar]

You're listening to all of it. Kusha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. Since the mid 20th century, courtroom drawings have been the preferred method of documenting trials in order to limit distractions. A new memoir captures a courtroom sketch artist's four decade career drawing high profile defendants including Donald Trump, Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Cosby. In the preface, author Jane Rosenberg writes, quote, a camera records a moment, but as an artist, I can linger on it, using every tool of color, shadow and perspective to perform my duty of telling the story. In a detailed account, she explains how she learned more about our criminal justice system and recalls experiences producing thousands of sketches of defendants, lawyers, witnesses, gallery observers. She also shares stories of illustrating a man die by electric chair drawing Ghislaine Maxwell as sketched. Ghislaine Maxwell was sketching Jane back and describes what Mafioso John Gotti was like in court before he became the big time boss of the Gambino crime family we know now. The memoir is titled Drawn My Four Decades as a Courtroom Sketch Artist and it comes out on Tuesday, August 13th. Author Jane Rosenberg joins us today right across the table from me. So lucky to have her here to discuss ahead of her talk with award winning reporter Juliet Poppa this upcoming Tuesday at 6pm that's at Barnes and Noble on 82nd in Broadway. Jane, welcome to all of it.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Thank you.

[Koosha Navadar]

So so listeners, we'd like to hear from you as well. Are you a sketch artist or are you someone who likes to draw? What questions do you have for Jane Rosenberg about the job of a courtroom sketch artist? Have you seen her sketches of Tom Brady, Donald Trump, Harvey Weinstein? Tell us about a courtroom sketch you've seen that stuck with you. Give us a call Send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also hit us up on Instagram or X. We're all of it. Wnyc. So, Jane, you've sat in hundreds of cases. What inspired you to write drawn testimony now, after four decades?

[Jane Rosenberg]

Well, I felt I had a story to tell. I went and looked at all my thousands of sketches, and I thought, these are some big cases. I know people are interested in what I do and how I do it, and people sit behind me in court, and they are always fascinated to watch what I'm doing. So there are a lot of questions out there, I'm sure.

[Koosha Navadar]

What made you think you had a story to tell? Now, was that not a thought that came up to you before?

[Jane Rosenberg]

Oh, it came up before. It's been there for. As my collection grew and grew and expanded out into other rooms in my apartment, it was ready to be told, but I was approached by an agent. So I thought, okay, let's go for it.

[Koosha Navadar]

That was kind of the kick in the butt.

[Jane Rosenberg]

It was the kick in the butt.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah, I hear that. What aspects of your career as a sketch artist in a courtroom did you want more people to understand by writing this book?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I think nobody knows anything. They didn't know who hires me. They thought I work for the courts. And what do I bring? All the questions I had when I first started to be a courtroom artist, what can I bring? Where would I sit? There are a lot of questions, and I hope I answered most of them in the book.

[Koosha Navadar]

What was your exposure to becoming a courtroom sketch artist? Tell us through that story quickly.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Okay, quickly.

[Koosha Navadar]

Well, you know, just. What are the Cliff Notes there? How did you get exposed to it?

[Jane Rosenberg]

Originally, I went originally. I had friends who were lawyers and took me to night court at 100 Center street where I did practice and put together a portfolio. And I kept asking the court officers, where did the artists sit? What do they bring? And they said, come next week, we'll let you sit in the jury box with the other artists. And when I came, there were two other artists, and one had Fox on his portfolio. And I had no idea who the other person was. So I did the sketch and I went home and I looked at it, and I thought, I really should make some calls and try to sell this. And I first called the startup company back then. It was CNN, 1980. They were the startup company. And I thought, well, maybe my best shot is to call them. And they Said, oh, we had an artist there. So now I stuck calling one of the big three. And I called NBC, and they said, come on in. Let's see what you got. I went to 30 Rock, and it was like, wow. And I got shown around the newsroom. They said, great. And they. They took my sketch and shot it on film. Back then, it was film. Put it on a wall, shot it took me in a back room, arranged for payment, and that's how it started. And I kept getting calls.

[Koosha Navadar]

Wow. So you went right to 30 Rock and just started talking to them, and then, like, a couple weeks later, you were in a courtroom.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Well, I was in the courtroom already before.

[Koosha Navadar]

Wow.

[Jane Rosenberg]

But, yes, that's how I got out there.

[Koosha Navadar]

And, you know, in the memoir, you reflect with such great detail about these pivotal cases. How were you able to recall these moments with so context and detail over four decades?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I look at my sketches, I can remember.

[Koosha Navadar]

Wow. So there's so much like memory just in the. In the actual physical drawing of it or the pictures themselves. Evocative and make you remember pictures are.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Evocative, and I was there, so hopefully I can recall it. I'm worried about Will. I recall everything right now as we're doing this interview at it's in Me, so I have to recall it.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah, absolutely. You actually started as a portrait artist in Provincetown, Massachusetts. Right. So why did you decide to pivot?

[Jane Rosenberg]

Okay, let's go back to college. Okay. Where when I went to College, the late 60s, early 70s, and abstract art was very big, and people. People said, oh, realism is passe. You have to find something new to do. It was De Kooning, Rothko, Jackson Pollock. That was what was happening. And I was a closet portrait artist. I would be home alone in my kitchen with a mirror, drawing myself self portraits. And soon after college, I found my way to the Art Students League, where I studied figurative work and portraiture. So painting and portraiture. And I fell madly in love with that. And then I ended up being a portrait artist in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, for tourists in the Summ. So I would spend my summers in Provincetown sketching tourists. And the winters I would be at the Art Students League. So now I'm back, going back and forth, back and forth, and I really felt this is. I went to a lecture at the Society of Illustrators by Marilyn Church and other courtroom artists. And that's when I saw what she was doing. And I thought, wow, I would love to do a whole composition of a room, not just a head on a paper. And so that's When I started going to court, I went with my friends who were lawyers to night court. So she inspired me. She didn't personally, but watching that lecture, I didn't know if I'm good enough. But I looked in the mirror and I said, I'm gonna go after this. And that's what I did.

[Koosha Navadar]

And how was it in that first time when you were in the courtroom sketching, what was different, what was unexpected, what was harder than you were anticipating?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I had no clients the first time, so it was not the same as once I was hired. I had a knot in my stomach every time for like years. I would go to court with a knot in my stom. Am I going to be able to do this? Am I going to be able to pull it off? Will I see the defendant? Will I have enough of a view? Can I draw? There's a lot of fear with it.

[Koosha Navadar]

And it's much more fast paced. Right.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Well, having to turn it out over the years, the pace became faster and faster because when I first started, I didn't have to have my sketch finished till like 4:45 or 5 maybe. There was a 6 o', clock, then there was a 5 o' clock news, then there became a nude show. I had to have my sketch done by 11:30 and now it's 24 7, so I really have to keep turning them out all day long. So it's. That's what's different now than back in 1980. Plus all this equipment blocks my view now. That didn't exist back then. They were not computer monitors on tables and giant furniture and all this equipment.

[Koosha Navadar]

Where are you sitting in the actual courtroom? Are you with the other media folks? Is that why there's so much equipment in front of you or the equipment.

[Jane Rosenberg]

In front of me? Is the. Every table full of several lawyers and defendants or one even defendant. They each have a computer monitor and a laptop and whatever else they have out there. Like, you know, it's just a whole new modern technology world. A lot of equipment that didn't exist. When I look at my old sketches, it was all blank tables. Maybe a glass of water, a pitcher. It was great. I could see everybody.

[Koosha Navadar]

That's interesting. How do you think about drawing or not drawing that now? Because you had less equipment, less noise in the picture, I guess I would call it. Do you remove that now? Do you choose not to draw it? How do you tackle that?

[Jane Rosenberg]

It depends how much time I have. If I have a lot of time, I'm going to put those water bottles in that's kind of fun to draw that. But if I. If I don't have time, I'm going to leave out some of the equipment. But the other thing is, sometimes I'm looking at a sliver of a person between two computer monitors, and I may have to lean to the left to get to the front of the head and lean right to get to the other back of the head. So there's a lot of leaning and looking through slivers that I may have to show it that way. If that's what's all I've got. I have to put those two monitors in.

[Koosha Navadar]

You got to put the two monitors for it to make sense.

[Jane Rosenberg]

In the Trump trial, I had a court officer standing right in front of two of them, blocking my view. And a lot of times I'd be looking through a sliver of them. And a lot of my sketches have these elbows in them. You know, you could see part of them standing and blocking my view. So sometimes I have to put it in.

[Koosha Navadar]

Well, speaking of the Trump trial, in the memoir, you said as soon as Trump was elected president, people started asking you if you thought you would end up sketching him in court, and you eventually did in the spring of 2023. Tell us, what feelings did you have leading up to that case, which was such a huge spectacle?

[Jane Rosenberg]

It was a huge spectacle, and I was very nervous, and I knew I'd have to draw him if it came to him showing up in a courtroom. I had already drawn a cover illustration for New York magazine where I did it from photos. So I had spent some time getting his likeness, and I understood the structure of his head. So that was helpful for me to draw a new person. You know, I've already worked out some of the details of his face, so this time it was from life, and I didn't. An arraignment can be very quick. It could be just seconds. It could be a few minutes. I've done like the Boston Marathon bombing. That was seven minutes, you know, so I might have had only a short time, but in this Trump arraignment, I had a much longer time because they. There was some arguments from some lawyers for the media to allow more people in the courtroom. There were arguments. The prosecution read off 34 counts one by one by one. It took a long time, so I had a lot of time.

[Koosha Navadar]

Listeners, we are talking to Jane Rosenberg, courtroom sketch artist. The title of her memoir is Drawn My Four Decades as a Courtroom Sketch Artist. We have some wonderful music to time us with to talk about the beautiful kinds of sketches that we have have Jane talking about. Let's go to a caller in Cortez in Freehold, New Jersey. Hi, Cortez.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Hey, how are you?

[Koosha Navadar]

Good. How are you? And I'm so honored to be talking to you. I've seen your sketches and I love them. And one of my instructors in college was a police reporter, not a police reporter, I'm sorry, a police sketch artist. And then from there he went on to exhibit artwork. Have you exhibited, exhibited your work beyond what you're doing in the courts?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I have and I do. And right now at the very there's a huge exhibit in the federal courthouse in Southern District New York of courtroom art. It's a group show. Three artists are in it that's on exhibit now. And there was another one right before that. And I also exhibit my work in a gallery, my oil paintings, which are totally separate business that is in a gallery in Provincetown, Massachusetts, called Simi Marilis Gallery, Cortez.

[Koosha Navadar]

Thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate you chiming in. If you listening right now, have any questions for Jane Rosenberg, this courtroom sketch artist, or if you are a sketch artist or someone who likes to draw, give us a call, send us a text. Have you seen Jane's sketches of Tom Brady, of Donald Trump, of Harvey Weinstein? Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212433, W NYC. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to dive into some more of the famous cases that Jane has drawn and take some more of your calls. Stay with us. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. Today we're talking to Jane Rosenberg, the courtroom sketch artist and the author of the memoir Drawn My Four Decades as a Courtroom Sketch Artist. We are talking to folks now. If you have questions for Jane, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Jane, here's a question from a listener who texted in. It says, please ask Jane how she continues sketching after the subjects move. I've learned to draw from life but not from memory or invention and wonder how it works.

[Jane Rosenberg]

What do you think memory is so important? Because I would love for people to hold still, but they don't. And they tilt their head to the left, they'll tilt it to the right and I Just wish I could shout out, would you just pick one side and hold it? But I can't. And I do have to remember which. What I'm going, I have a lay in. I have the tilts going. I have to hold that. And if I don't, I'm gonna have a warp drawing. And that does happen sometimes. Sometimes I forget. I have to stick with what I started with, otherwise everything's going out of whack.

[Koosha Navadar]

So do you have any flexibility or is it so fast paced and just so much from your memory that once you start, you just have to kind of stick with it?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I have to stick with it. But sometimes in a courtroom, some people are sitting in the same seat. In general, like a witness will be in that same seat. They may tilt left or right, but they will sit in that seat mostly facing front. And sometimes I'll wait for them to fall back in that position. And if a lawyer jumps up and waves their arm, that I have no choice. They're not going to hold that pose. That I have to remember. I have to understand my anatomy, where the arm's going to be and how it's going to work out, because I understand what's going on. But I do have to remember. I have to remember the gesture will just be lines and then I have to fill it in. I don't finish my drawings after court. Everything is done right then and there. There's no touching up. It goes right out to the media. And I sometimes want to cringe when I look at what I've sent out. I want to fix it, but it's too bad on me. I have to show the world what I've done in that short time?

[Koosha Navadar]

Here we have another texter who says, do you have to try hard not to infuse your sketches with your perhaps strong feelings about the defendants, witnesses and others on the stand?

[Jane Rosenberg]

My job is to show what's happening, not to infuse my emotions into a drawing. So I have to show whatever the person is doing, if they're crying, if they're leaning forward, like with Trump. I drew him smiling. I drew him with his eyes shut, looking like he's asleep. I drew him leaning forward, leaning back, looking grumpy, which he did a lot. And I have to draw what I see. So. So it's up to the photo editors or the newsroom, the news editors, and they put together a story with the images I send in, and they'll choose what works with the story that they're putting out.

[Koosha Navadar]

It's amazing to think of how quickly you draw these sketches and yet how filled with emotion they still are. What are some techniques that you use to convey the emotion that you see in the courtroom if it's on such a tight timeline? There's a.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Techniques I use. You know, I just hold it in my mind. The expression in the arraignment of Trump that. That initial sketch that we Talked about in 20, when he was arraigned in 2023, he happened to. I started to do a different sketch of him saying not guilty in a microphone. I had just pulled out a fresh sheet of paper, thinking, that's what I'm going after. But then he turned and watched that. He kind of sn and sneered at the prosecutor as he read that. The 34 counts. But I got a front view. Look at him. So I decided that's what I have to do. Look at. He's holding that position for a long time. I went after that. I don't always have a plan. It just comes as it comes as it comes.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. And you just see it, and then you put it. You remember it, and you put it in action.

[Jane Rosenberg]

But he held that a while, which was a luxury for me.

[Koosha Navadar]

I want to talk about the Tom Brady sketch as well. Almost 10 years ago, you drew a sketch of former quarterback Tom Brady. It went viral. Some people called it funny. You ended up apologizing. Can you tell us about that drawing? What expressions did you want to capture on. On Tom Brady's face?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I wasn't even going for a specific expression he was in. I didn't even know who he was until I got to court. But I knew the story was about him and about Roger Goodell, and they were in separate tables in the courtroom. And I figured everybody. The cameras were all outside. I figured they're going to have photos of Tom Brady walking in, walking out. They don't. May not even use my sketch, but I'll do a wide shot to show him sitting in relation to Roger Goodell. I did all these lawyers, and Tom Brady's head was about an inch big, but it turned into a huge blown out of proportion. Everybody just blew up on that inch drawing, which, by the way, with pastels, it's very hard to work small because they're clunky and chunky and hard to get those fine lines. But I didn't even know what's. I didn't know what a meme was. I had done the sketch. I came out and I saw my. I went over to the truck of CBS where the camera, where the reporter was, and he opened his laptop and he said, oh, this thing has gone viral. And I thought, what's going on? And I looked. I learned what memes were. They were all over the place. People really were, like, mocking it and making, like, pictures of the Scream with Tom Brady's head on it or Michael Jackson dancing around.

[Koosha Navadar]

And that is a tough way to learn about memes is by providing a meme. Anything that gets memes wild.

[Jane Rosenberg]

So I didn't intend for him to look bad or good or he did look at his cell phone a lot. That might have been one of those cases where I told you, if you don't hold your initial angle, and he was going up and down a lot, I might have gone off on that. So I apologized.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah.

[Jane Rosenberg]

I mean, he is standards. I guess people would say he's handsome.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Well, you just captured what you saw, right?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I tried. I try my best.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Let's go to Chitra in Morristown, New Jersey. Hey, Chitra. Am I pronouncing your name correctly?

[McDonald's Employee]

Yes. Am I on?

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Hi, welcome. You're on with Jane Rosenberg.

[McDonald's Employee]

Okay. Hi. Oh, it's so exciting. What a talent somebody like you have. My question is, some of these famous people have a lot of caricatures made out of them. When you sketch somebody like that, like Trump, for example, in a courtroom setting, you know, do you. Do you become very conscious of making sure, you know that it is real and not some, you know, like that hair and stuff, that it looks more like you're making fun of it? You know what I'm saying? I hope I'm saying it correctly.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah, Teacher. I think that's really, really well placed. There's a lot of drawings out there of some very famous people. How do you navigate that?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I'm not a caricaturist, so that's never my goal. I don't even know how to do caricatures, and I am still going after drawing what I see, and that's all I'm trying to do. I'm not thinking about caricatures or cartoons or anything when I'm in a courtroom. I'm just drawing whatever's happening.

[Koosha Navadar]

Chitra, thank you so much for that question. We really appreciate it. Here's another text question that we have. Have your ideas about the justice system changed or developed through this work? And this is from Lisa in Maplewood, New Jersey.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Okay. When I first started, one of my very early cases was the person who murdered John Lennon, Mark David Chapman. And I remember I went into a courtroom and I saw his defense attorney standing there And I hated him. I thought, how could he represent this horrible person who just murdered John Lennon? So later on through time, I did develop an understanding of how the legal system works. I ended up marrying a defense attorney. So I understood that there has to be checks and balances. There has to be two sides so people can come out with the truth. And the jury will decide what the truth is. And they usually get it right. Not always, but usually.

[Koosha Navadar]

We have another text here that says, does she, Jane, see physical or emotive differences in people who have done very bad things, or do the people involved more or less look like everyone else?

[Jane Rosenberg]

It's very hard to read a face. Look at Bernie Madoff. He would look like a nice old man. He did not betray nothing. The word I'm looking for, his face did not show what he had done. He ruined people's lives, took all their money. And I suppose people trusted him because he had that face and they gave him their money. So you can't always tell what a person's like. There are some brilliant con men that are so great and their faces don't show it.

[Koosha Navadar]

Here's another text that we have. Why have courtroom artists continued to be employed? Why not photos? Will AI take their places? I hope not. I love the sketches. The future of the profession, I think, and I think folks are at least in this text, also wondering, why not just photos?

[Jane Rosenberg]

Why not? Because right now, the law is that photos, cameras can't get into. They cannot get into any federal courthouses or rooms, and they can't get into some states, state courts. So New York has a law that it's up to the judge. So sometimes they get in. Like with Harvey Weinstein. All those cameras were outside. I thought, nobody's ever gonna see my sketch because they all got inside the courtroom. And yet the sketch went viral. So that happens.

[Koosha Navadar]

What do you feel like are the most rewarding aspects of your career when you look back on four decades?

[Jane Rosenberg]

I love drawing. I'm very lucky. I make a living at doing what I love to do. And that's rewarding in itself. Just I'm serving people. People have a need and they appreciate me. And that's wonderful gift that I have. People who appreciate what I'm doing. It's, you know, social service in a way.

[Koosha Navadar]

Absolutely. We gotta put a pin in it there. But I wanna thank you so much, Jane. I've been speaking with courtroom sketch artist Jane Rosenberg about her memoir titled Drawn My Four Decades as a Courtroom SK Sketch Artist. It's out Tuesday, August 13th. Shane, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

[Jane Rosenberg]

You're welcome.

[Koosha Navadar]

All right, that is our show for today. Thanks for being here with us. I'll meet you back here next Wednesday. Coming up on Monday's show, here's what's happening. Host Allison Stewart talks about how to manage kids screen time. And we'll hear a live in studio performance from Tank and the Bonga. This has been all of it. All of it is produced by Andrea Duncan Mao, Kate Hines, Jordan Lof, Simon Close, El Malik Anderson, and Luke Green and Aki Carmago. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. Our engineers are Juliana Fonda, Jason Isaac, and Shayna Senstock. Luscious Jackson does our music. If you missed any segments this week, you can always catch up by listening to our podcast. It's available on your podcast platform of choice. Thank you all so much for hanging out with us this week. Loved the calls, loved the pep talks, loved having Jane on. Have a great weekend. We'll see you back here on Monday.

[Uncle]

I'm gonna put you on nephew.

[Jane Rosenberg]

All right.

[Ad Narrator]

Welcome to McDonald's.

[Jane Rosenberg]

Can I take your order, miss?

[Uncle]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Hey, Snackwrap is back.

[Ad Narrator]

Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's got to be clean, it's got to be tied.