Podcast Summary: “A Vegan BBQ and Soul Food Cookbook (Food For Thought)”

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Toriano Gordon, Chef/Owner of Vegan Mob & Author of Vegan Mob: Vegan Barbecue and Soul Food
Date: March 28, 2024

Main Theme

This episode of All Of It explores the intersection of vegan cooking and soul food, focusing on how chef Toriano Gordon reimagines classic barbecue and soul food dishes without meat or dairy. The conversation uncovers Gordon’s personal journey, his inspirations drawn from family and community, practical tips for plant-based substitutions, and the cultural roots that make his cuisine unique.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Soul Food Memories and Family Roots

• Barbecue Memories

  • Gordon reminisces about backyard grilling with family, his uncle’s influence, and the joy barbecue brought to gatherings.

  “Grilling in the backyard... my uncle coming from Houston and talking about how San Francisco doesn't have any good barbecue and showing me what good barbecue is.” (Toriano, 04:27)

• Music and Food Storytelling

  • Before starting his restaurant, Gordon was involved in Bay Area hip-hop with Fully Loaded, using both music and food to tell his story.

  “I use music in the same way I use food to express myself and tell my story.” (Kusha, paraphrasing Toriano, 05:18)
  "With food, I could tell more of a family story because the food is well connected to my family history..." (Toriano, 05:49)

• Neighborhood Influence: The Filmo vs. Fillmore Debate

  • Gordon emphasizes the significance of "Filmo" (Fillmore neighborhood in San Francisco) as a hub of Black culture, jazz, and family.

  “We say Phil Mo, you know, and... I was like making a statement: this is Filmo, not the Fillmore.” (Toriano, 08:33) “It’s the Harlem of the West... It was just music and just jazzy and just a fly place to be.” (Toriano, 10:05)

2. Making Vegan Soul Food Work

• Substitutions: Store-Bought vs. Homemade

  • Gordon started with the ambition to make his own plant-based meats but found partnerships more practical due to time and resources.

  "In the beginning I wanted to do my own ingredients, but I just got so busy... I took a loan here... There was no time... met a guy... Chef Chew... almost like a match made in heaven." (Toriano, 11:24)

• Top Plant-Based Meat & Dairy Substitutes

  • For “meat”:
    • Better Chew (especially for fried chicken)
    • Impossible sausage for links
  • For “cheese”:
    • No replacement truly like dairy cheese, but Daiya for melting (with his own flavor additions)

  “There is no top cheese really... There's good melts, like Daiya... but I really just add my own ingredients to make it taste how it tastes.” (Toriano, 14:37)

• Approach to Cheese: Imitation vs. Inspiration

  • The goal isn’t to imitate exactly but to deliver satisfying flavors and textures.

  "It's for finding something that satisfies the same feeling, but is its own beautiful thing on its own." (Kusha, 15:28)
  "Something that can meet your texture max and then you just got to put in the work to make it flavorful." (Toriano, 15:43)

3. Signature Recipes and Kitchen Tips

• Mob Sauce: The House Specialty

  • Combines barbecue and teriyaki sauce elements—includes tomato sauce, ketchup, yellow mustard, mirin, sake, soy sauce, lemon juice, and liquid smoke.

  “It’s a mixture of like a Texas barbecue sauce with kind of ingredients from a teriyaki sauce... it’s really good.” (Toriano, 17:29)

  • Created as an homage to his heritage, evolving from “Maddie’s Magic” (his grandmother) to “Mob Sauce.”

  “I was trying to emulate one of my uncle's recipes... took me about six months until I really found the flavor... Once I tasted it, I was like, 'That's it. That's the magic.'" (Toriano, 18:57)

• Plant-Based Fried Chicken

  • Uses Better Chew soy-based “chicken,” but also recommends oyster mushrooms for natural options.

  “You just have to have the right product... the batter usually does the trick... oyster mushrooms are pretty good too.” (Toriano, 23:05)

  • Key frying tip:
    • Batter must cook through (5–10 minutes); underfrying leads to gooey textures.

• Caller Tips: Nutritional Yeast for Cheese Flavor

  • Marcia from Brooklyn recommends nutritional yeast for cheesiness, sometimes blended with nuts for a Parmesan alternative.

  “There’s a place near me that makes a nutritional yeast parmesan alternative with walnuts... you can also grind up nuts into your nutritional yeast and play with flavorings...” (Marcia, 21:13)

  • Gordon agrees: “I'm a fan of nutritional yeast for sure.” (Toriano, 22:19)

• Cheese Evolution & NYC Vegan Cheese Scene

  • Jen from Brooklyn praises Violife and Riverdel (NYC vegan cheesemonger) for advanced, authentic-tasting vegan cheeses.

  “Riverdel... I'm talking real cheese, just not made from cows... cave aged cheese with the same cultures you'd use in blue cheese... cashew-based.” (Jen, 26:43)

  • Toriano focuses more on meltability: “I've tried every single cheese... The melting is what I'm looking for because I can make any of the cheese's flavors taste good.” (Toriano, 28:35)

4. Defining Soul in Soul Food

• Cooking soul food is about honoring heritage, family, and love—especially the matriarchs in his family.

  “It's just the deep down inside, I feel like your soul is your inside... My grandmother represented family, love, sharing, selflessness... just being in my grandmother's kitchen, just having that passed down to me.” (Toriano, 29:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Food is like deeply connected to my family roots, you know?” (Toriano, 05:49)
• “If you were to ask somebody from the culture in Harlem or Brooklyn about Filmo, they can definitely tell you about Phil Mo.” (Toriano, 08:33)
• “There is no top cheese really... There's good melts, like Daiya... but I really just add my own ingredients...” (Toriano, 14:37)
• “Mob sauce... is a mixture of like barbecue sauce, like a Texas barbecue sauce with, with kind of a teriyaki with ingredients from like a teriyaki sauce.” (Toriano, 17:29)
• “It's really about family. Family, love, sharing, selflessness—togetherness.” (Toriano, 29:40)

Noteworthy Listener Contributions

• Marcia from Brooklyn (22:13): Nutritional yeast for cheese flavor, blending with ground nuts for vegan Parmesan.
• Charles in Harlem (22:40): Corn, okra, and tomato as a vegan soul food classic.
• Jen from Brooklyn (26:43): Innovative New York vegan cheeses and meat substitutes, notably Violife and Riverdel.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:58 – Introduction of Vegan Mob, veganizing barbecue
• 04:27 – Toriano’s earliest barbecue memories
• 08:33 – Cultural importance of “Filmo” neighborhood
• 11:24 – How Toriano sources meat and dairy substitutes
• 13:50 – Top picks for plant-based meat and cheese
• 17:29 – Creation and ingredients for Mob Sauce
• 21:13 – Caller Marcia’s nutritional yeast tip
• 23:05 – Achieving good fried chicken texture with substitutes
• 26:43 – Caller Jen’s overview of NYC’s vegan cheese scene
• 29:40 – Defining "soul" in soul food and in the kitchen
• 30:30 – Closing thoughts and thanks

Summary Takeaways

Toriano Gordon’s approach to vegan soul food is a blend of honoring deep family traditions and Black culture, adapting classic barbecue and comfort dishes, and remaining pragmatic about plant-based innovations. He privileges authenticity (in flavor and feeling) over strict imitation, and his recipes—including his signature Mob Sauce—are rooted in memories and love. Listener participation highlighted the growing resources and creativity in the plant-based community.

Whether you’re a vegan soul food veteran or just learning how to swap out ingredients, this episode provides insight, heritage, and a sense of culinary camaraderie.