← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
A Vegan BBQ and Soul Food Cookbook (Food For Thought)
00:29:08
Toriano Gordon, the chef behind the Oakland-based restaurant Vegan Mob shares his new cookbook.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:58]
Toriano Gordon
Let's go. I'm gonna put you on, nephew. All right, unc. Welcome to McDonald's.
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McDonald's Employee
Can I take your order, miss?
- [01:04]
Toriano Gordon
I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.
- [01:15]
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- [01:52]
Kusha Navadar
This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Kusha Navadar in for El Alison Stewart. Hey, what are you doing tonight at 6pm because it's time for our get lit with all of it book club. We'll be discussing Social Gonzalez's novel Anita Damonte laughs Last. If you already have tickets, we'll see you at the New York public library on Fifth Avenue and 40th. And if you don't, you can watch our livestream. Head to wnyc.org getlit for more information. That's wnyc.org getlit that's tonight at 6. Let's get this hour started with this week's Food For Thought segment, Happy Food for Thought Thursday. Every week we bring you food, or at least a conversation about food. Making it, enjoying it, appreciating the stories behind it. And by now, listeners, you know the drill. Or should I say the grill. Cause today we're talking about the barbecue grill. Anyone?
- [02:58]
Toriano Gordon
Okay.
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Kusha Navadar
But not just any barbecue because. Because we're going vegan, plant based, meatless and dairy free, which might sound like a challenge for a cuisine that's so meat and dairy centric. But to show us how we can lose those animal based ingredients without losing the soul, please welcome Toriano Gordon, the chef and owner of the Oakland based soul food restaurant Vegan Mob. And now he's the author of a new cookbook called Vegan Mob, Vegan Barbecue and Soul Food. Toriana, welcome.
- [03:29]
Toriano Gordon
Hey, how you doing?
- [03:30]
Kusha Navadar
Good. Great to have you here. And listeners, we want to have you a part of the conversation too. We're talking about vegan soul food and barbecue. So join us by calling or texting. Share your own favorite comfort recipes that are plant based. Give us a call or text. It's 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Are you looking for tips to help veganize a non vegan dish or are you looking for some plant based inspiration for what to bring to a family? Anything you want to ask? Toriano. He's the author of the cookbook Vegan Mob, Vegan Barbecue and Soul Food and the founder of a restaurant with the same name. The number is 212-433-9692. Okay, so Toriano, you grew up with soul food and barbecue as your favorite kinds of food. Before we take meat out of the equation, when you think about barbecue, what memories come up for you?
- [04:28]
Toriano Gordon
Grilling in the backyard? Just going to, going to my aunt's house in Berkeley and my uncle coming from Houston and talking about how San Francisco doesn't have any good barbecue and showing me what good barbecue is. And then, and then we did have some cool barbecue spots that I liked, you know, so I just loved, I just loved, I just loved barbecue. I loved the, the, the activity and the taste. It was always a treat, you know, and so once I got older and I was able to do it myself, I was like doing it all the time.
- [05:10]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah, I think it's really cool that before you opened your restaurant, you also, you know, made a lot of music with a Bay Area group called Fully Loaded, right?
- [05:17]
Toriano Gordon
Yep. Yep.
- [05:18]
Kusha Navadar
And it was also under your own moniker, young. No. And in the intro to your book, you write, I use music in the same way I use food to express. Express myself and tell my story. So you use both music and food to tell your story. So when you think about your own story, you think about those. Those, you know, having all of your relatives over and then telling you that there's no good barbecue in San Francisco or your story in general. What parts of your story can you tell better with food than you could with music, man?
- [05:49]
Toriano Gordon
Well, you know, with food, I could tell more of a family story because the food is well connected to, like, my family history. Like, everything that I eat and that I. And that I put in this book is. Is basically a part of my upbringing and a part of, you know, how I was raised and what was in my household and what my mom took me. You know, my mom showed me to eat. And, you know, so it really, with music is. Is. It's, like, experiences. And I do. I do tell different stories about family, but the food. I feel like food is, like, deeply connected to, like, my. My family roots, you know?
- [06:32]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah. It's like music. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but I hear you say, like, music is about what you're thinking, and food is kind of like what you. What your family thought maybe.
- [06:41]
Toriano Gordon
Right, right, right. How. How. Just. It's just how I was brought up. Like, it's just sharing, like, what. It's almost like, showcase, like, showing off my family like this. Like when. When. When people, you know, when my lines got large at vegan mom and people just love my food, I was like, okay, this is. This is what I. I know about my grandmother's food, you know, in my mom's food. So, like, I always thought we had some of the best food. And I was like, am I biased? You know, But I. I grew up in San Francisco, in San Francisco, has some of the best food in the world. You know, I've. I've traveled to many places. Excuse me. Sorry about that. I've traveled to many places, and when. Just. Just like San Francisco always, you know, pretty much, we. We shine hard when it comes to the food.
- [07:39]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah. You opened your restaurant in an Oakland neighborhood called Filmo, which is spelled film.
- [07:43]
Toriano Gordon
No, no, no, no, no. Let me. Let me correct that. So I'm. I'm. That's where I'm from is. Is the field board. So Field Mode. That's Phil Mode. That's. That's where I grew up. That's my neighborhood. Oakland is. Fillmore is. Is in San Francisco. So Fillmore is Like the Harlem of the West. Oakland is where. Where I opened up my restaurant in Oakland is Lake Marriott.
- [08:10]
Kusha Navadar
You know what's funny about that? I used to actually live right on Fillmore street in San Francisco, so. That's right. That' show my colors here. I should know better. Yeah. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. Keeping me connected to the west coast, the best coast, except for New York City, which is great. But tell us about that neighborhood. Tell us about that. What. Why that pronunciation is so important for you and why you made it the books for a section.
- [08:34]
Toriano Gordon
Yeah, you know. You know, well, it's just because the Fillmore is like, okay, you know, it. We, you know, for us, like the younger generation, for the. For the people that are from that area, from the People are from the. From the hood, from people who are connected to the culture. We say. We say Phil Mo, you know, and, you know, and I feel like I would say, like the out of town. I don't want to call them transplants. I want to be like a rude about it, but it's been a lot of gentrification in. In the city of San Francisco and especially in our neighborhood. And I felt like I was like making a statement like, this is film, not to feel more. You know what I mean? And. And we, you know, our old. Our old, you know, our old. Our elders and stuff, they. They may call it the film war here now, but when I grew up, everybody, like, in what we call it, in call it filmo. It's filmo. You know, that's what we. That's how we say it. I mean, if you. If you were to ask somebody that was, you know, from the culture in Harlem or. Or Brooklyn about Filmo, they can definitely tell you about Phil Mo. You know, like, we can, like, we can tell you about Harlem or we can tell you about Brock's or, you know, Brooklyn or so Triana, what would.
- [10:03]
Kusha Navadar
People say about film, like, how they describe it? How would your friends describe it?
- [10:06]
Toriano Gordon
Oh, well, it's a lot of culture. It's. It's the. It's the hip hop, it's the Becca, the jazz. It's just. It's music. It's love and family. It's. It's swag. It's. It's the. It's the. It's the middle of the city. It's. It's where everything happens, you know? So, yeah, it's just. It's just. It's the place to be, you know, and. And before I was born, it was where all the. Where all the artists came, you know, all the comedians, all the, the jazz or the R and B, you know, singers came and they stay in on Fillmore street and yeah, like they call it the Harlem of the West. Like, you know, it was just music and just jazzy and just a, I guess a fly place to be.
- [10:59]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah. And you know, we, we people around the country can stream this. So if anyone's listening right now, the film or in San Francisco generally. Shout out, shout out. Appreciate you listening. Before we get into some of the recipes, I want to talk about the way you think about plant based substitutions in your vegan recipes. How do you decide when to use like straight up store bought meat replacements versus whipping up an alternative from raw ingredients yourself?
- [11:25]
Toriano Gordon
Well, in the beginning I wanted to do my own ingredients, but I just got so busy that I just, that I just, it wasn't even. There was no way that I can do it. I just was, it was just crazy. You know, I didn't have any funding, you know, I, I had a little bit here, but you know, I don't have any investors or anything like that. I took a loan here. That I took a loan here. And so was no time for me to just go whip up my own stuff. You know, I'm more of the, I cook the, I cook everything else. The greens, the, the, the, the, the cheese sauces and things like that, but the yams and things like that. But I never had a chance to whip it up like I wanted to. But I met a guy in the neighborhood I was living in in the diamond district in Oakland named Chef Chew. He, he had a restaurant called Vega. And I went in there and I was like, who's your manufacturer? And he was like, it's me, I make it. And so I just, it was kind of like a match made in heaven. He gave me the product and so from there it was like, okay, I didn't even have to do anything. You know, it was like, all right, we, we, we just, we just teamed up almost. You know, even though he had his own restaurant, I was doing so much that he just ended up making so much stuff for me, you know, and, and I still, I'm actually working on my own plant based stuff right now. But I'm just once again, I'm just really, really busy. So. Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough to just go in and just get it going, you know, because I like my stuff to be, I wanted to be top.
- [13:21]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah.
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Toriano Gordon
I don't want to be like, just anything that I Put together. I wanted it, I wanted to, I wanted to be on the, be on the level of, you know, all of the top plant based meat. So if I'm a release something, it has to be something of like super good quality.
- [13:37]
Kusha Navadar
Well, let's talk about that super good quality for a second. If you use the term vegan pantry, which includes both meat and dairy substitutes, what are your two top two must haves for each category for meat and for dairy to sub in.
- [13:50]
Toriano Gordon
Okay. You know, right now I would have to say better too. Better chew right now for the, for the chicken. And I would want to say, I like to say right now I like Impossibles sausages. Even though I'm making my own hot links. I, I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna be honest. Like their sausages are pretty good. And then for cheese, you know, there is no top cheese really that I, that I think to be completely honest.
- [14:33]
Kusha Navadar
Like, like no soft or cheese that matches cheese is what you're saying.
- [14:37]
Toriano Gordon
Yeah, I don't really think like, I mean there's good melts, you know, like I use daiya and stuff like that, but I, I really just add my own ingredients to make it tastes how it tastes, you know. You know, it's nothing like that. Where I feel like I can slap on a pizza and be like, oh yeah, this is, this is like pizza. Or I can just put it by macaroni and cheese and, and, and make it like how I make it if it was not vegan and just come out like macaroni and cheese. I feel like you have to find the best melts, you know. So like, I think for me, diet was my, my go to and I just, you know, I just add my own ingredients inside of it and then to make it not taste, have that aftertaste and make it come out delicious.
- [15:28]
Kusha Navadar
And you're also talking about, you know, you say for the meat, like here are good imitations, but for cheese there is no imitation. Is it fair to say the goal isn't imitation? In that case, it's for finding something that satisfies the same feeling but is its, its own beautiful thing on its own.
- [15:43]
Toriano Gordon
Right, right, right. You. Well, something that it's all about. Yeah, yeah. Something that can meet your texture max and then you just kind of got to put in the work to make it flavorful how you know how you want it to be.
- [15:59]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah. We're talking to Toriano Gordon, who is the chef and owner of Vegan Mob in Oakland and the author of the new cookbook Vegan Mob Vegan barbecue and soul food. Listeners, we're taking your calls. If you want to us about vegan soul food and barbecue, you've got a question for Toriano, give us a call. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We'll take your calls. We'll go into some recipes right after a quick break. This is all of it. I'm Kusha Navadar. We're talking to Toriano Gordon, who's the chef and owner of Vegan Mob in Oakland and the author cookbook Vegan Mob, Vegan Barbecue and Soul Food. We're taking your calls, listeners, about vegan soul food and barbecue. If you have a favorite plant based comfort recipe, you can give us a call. Maybe you have a question for Toriano. Maybe you have something that you love about vegan food that you want to share. Our number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. And Toriano, before the break, we talked about getting into some recipes. So let's do it speed. You know, when we go into sauce. Yeah, when we go into sauce, which is such an important part of barbecue, you have a sauce that bears the name of your brand, Mob sauce. What's that? What's. How did you develop that recipe? And maybe could you share the recipe with us?
- [17:30]
Toriano Gordon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The mob sauce. Well, I developed that recipe right in my kitchen. I was trying to figure out, like, to be honest with you, like, my, my, my favorite sauce is I wanted to combine like a good barbecue sauce with my, with a teriyaki sauce. So I was thinking, like, how do I do this? And my mom was like, well, you know, look up your favorite teriyaki sauce. And so I took, I took some stuff from the teriyaki sauce. Like, so in the recipe you have, you have tomato sauce, ketchup, yellow mustard, light brown sugar, and the, here you go, you get the garlic, the sake, the mirin, the soy sauce, you know, and that, that's the Asian part. So it's kind of a mixture of. And you got lemon juice and liquid smoke, you know, for the smoky flavor. But it's a mixture of like barbecue sauce, like a, like a Texas barbecue sauce with, with kind of a teriyaki with ingredients from like a teriyaki sauce. And. Yeah, it's just, it's, it's really good.
- [18:51]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of thought was put into that. What, did your mom try it? What did she Say she loves it. Yeah, that's great.
- [18:58]
Toriano Gordon
I was really trying to emulate one of my uncle's recipes at first, but I couldn't find anything from him. He. He passed away. And so I was trying to call up my cousins and get. Get see if they had any recipes hidden, but nobody had anything for me. And so I was like, all right, well, I just got to get to work and do it myself. And so it took me about like six months until I really found the, the flavor. Once I. I remember. I remember tasting it and I was like, that's it. I said, that's the magic. And called it Maddie's Magic at first, named after my grandmother. And then, and then I just kind of got into my. My mob mode, like vegan momo. And I was like, all right, now this mob sauce. And so. And it caught too, you know, because it's really catchy. People love it. People just, oh, you know, I want some mob sauce. Mob sauce. It's almost so. It's almost so, you know, just in the league of his own as far as, like, the name that it tricks people that people don't. Even some people are not even thinking about it being barbecue sauce.
- [20:16]
Kusha Navadar
And it's cool.
- [20:18]
Toriano Gordon
It tastes just like barbecue sauce. But just because it says mob sauce, people are just stuck to the mob part.
- [20:23]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah, it's cool how you're, you know, making mop sauce came from, you know, so many family influences. What dishes do you remember your uncle's sauce on?
- [20:32]
Toriano Gordon
Oh, yeah, Brisket. He made a chicken ribs. Yeah. Yeah. He taught me how to barbecue, so I used to be around him and just pick up everything from him all the way up to basically till he passed away.
- [20:53]
Kusha Navadar
So we've also got a caller for us with some insight. We've got Marcia from Brooklyn. Hey, Marcia, welcome to the show.
- [20:59]
Marcia from Brooklyn
Hey. Hi. So really glad to hear this. And I'd loved. I'm fine and I'm going to try your socks. But I've been a vegan for almost 50 years with some laxes because I missed asiago cheese and particularly on my popcorn. But I do also use daio when I make my little at home pita pizzas or pizzas because it melts well. But what I also use in all my recipes where I need a cheesier thing like a pasta with arugula and, you know, whatever I'm doing and find that I throw in nutritional yeast and about because it has that cheesy taste. And it's also great because it has all those B12 vitamins and all those enzymes and great protein too. So that's what I use. And I just wanted to say that there's a place near me that makes a nutritional yeast parmesan alternative with walnuts and nutritional yeast and whatever other seasonings they add. So you can also grind up nuts into your nutritional yeast and play with flavorings, garlic salt, lemon, pepper salt, whatever it is to give it that feel. I just wanted to say that.
- [22:14]
Kusha Navadar
Marcia, thanks so much for that call. I really appreciate those facts too. Toriano, nutritional yeast, what's your verdict?
- [22:20]
Toriano Gordon
Oh, yeah, yeah. I like putting that on my popcorn. I use it for things like that. I know about nutritional use. There's a good flavor to it. My aunt, actually my wife's godmother, put me onto it before I went vegan. And I'm a fan of nutritional yeast for sure.
- [22:41]
Kusha Navadar
Marcia, we really appreciate the call. We got a text to Toriano. It says, corn, okra, tomato. A tried and true soul food classic and still my favorite side dish. And then a yummy emoji. Just gotta point that out for listeners because I can see it. It's Charles in Harlem. Thanks, Charles. Appreciate it. Toriana, I wanna talk about maby chicken too. You talk about getting the texture of the chicken substitute, right? Go into that a little bit. How do you get good fried chicken texture from a chicken substitute?
- [23:05]
Toriano Gordon
Oh, man. You just have to have the right, the right, the right product, you know. You know, from what I've, you know, back then I used the soy because I use the better chew fried chicken. I didn't make it myself, you know, but what I did is I used his. His chicken and binded it together and Indian coated it with. With a good. With a good. With a good batter. You know, the batter usually does the trick, you know, but now I've even tried oyster mushrooms, and oyster mushrooms is pretty good too. And it's definitely just about how you fry it and how the batter is. You know, that's really. That's really how it is. That's really how I see it. But, chef, choose the one who came up with the. The chicken. All I did is just put it together just like a, you know, just like a regular chicken. You know, how you go buy the chicken at the store and you battered it up and you fry it. Same thing. Like it. He had a good. A good texture to it with the soy. Usually the soy has a good texture to it. And I just binded it all together and fried it up. And now he has a fried chicken.
- [24:30]
Kusha Navadar
You mentioned. Sorry, interrupt. You you mentioned that it's the way that you fry it. Can you talk about that a little bit? What is the right way to fry it or maybe what's the wrong way to fry it?
- [24:39]
Toriano Gordon
I mean, you just have to make sure that it's fried. You know, you can't, it can't be under fried. You gotta give it, you gotta, you gotta give it at least five to seven minutes, you know, in the fryer. You know, it's not like, it's not like real chicken. You can't leave it, you know, leave it in there for 20, 30 minutes, but you got at least five to seven to 10 minutes. You can't undercook it because when you binding it together with the flour and in the batter, the batter, if it's undercooked, then it's gonna be gooey. So you want to make sure that everything is fried and cooked all the way through. And then you want to just make sure, if you don't, if you're putting together your own protein, like if you're, you know, say you're, you're making your own soy, you want to make sure that that texture good. Like I said, I've never made my own plant based meat. Like, I never went in there and created my own plant based meat because I haven't had a chance to do that. But I've took others in and I put together, I put together the fried chicken and made it like that. And so if you're gonna.
- [25:46]
Kusha Navadar
Sorry, go ahead.
- [25:47]
Toriano Gordon
Yeah, you go ahead, Donna.
- [25:48]
Kusha Navadar
I was gonna say if you're, if you're gonna use oyster mushrooms, frying those. Any particular tips about that?
- [25:56]
Toriano Gordon
You want to make sure that it's not super wet. You know, you want to make sure it's well seasoned. And then you want to make sure before you fry it and put it together that it's not that, that, that, that is dry through and, and that's pretty much it. You know, I, I haven't used a bunch of oyster mushrooms, but I just started to get into it and I want to get into it a little bit more because I'm, I'm going to start, I want to start using more natural ingredients too. So like things like jackfruit. I wasn't into that in the beginning, but now I'm making some changes.
- [26:32]
Kusha Navadar
We have a caller online too, that, that might have a counterpoint to what you're talking about with cheese. I'm not going to start a debate here, but I'm really interested to hear this person's take on cheese. Jen from Brooklyn. Hi, Jen.
- [26:44]
McDonald's Employee
Hey. Hi guys. I'm really excited to call in about this because I was obsessed with cheese before I became vegan years and years ago. And when the options were just Daiya, I completely cut cheese out because Daiya was just terrible. Daiya has since made turnarounds and they have improved their formulas. However, I would by no means call them my go to cheese. My go to cheese for like an everyday life on your cheeseburger and your Mac and cheese. If you're making a homemade pizza for me, that's via life. I'm not sure how accessible it is outside of New York City. Maybe that's an obstacle. Of course, Daiya is the first vegan cheese, so definitely probably more nationwide accessible. But I also want to shout out to Riverdell, New York City's own vegan cheesemonger, which has, I'm talking real cheese, just not made from cows. So we're talking about cave age cheese cheeses with the same cultures that you would use in a blue cheese. We're talking about ones that are like legit, made with fungus and bacteria that you would use to make a dairy based cheese using alternative ingredients mostly like cashews and other nuts. They have an amazing line that they, they cater from across the country and then also because we're talking about soul food. Oh, and they also have an amazing assortment of vegan cured meats.
- [28:22]
Kusha Navadar
Nice. Jen, what was the name of that?
- [28:24]
McDonald's Employee
Riverdough.
- [28:25]
Kusha Navadar
It's actually in Lower East Riverdale. Thank you so much, Jen. We really appreciate it. We gotta cut it off there. But Toriano, if you come over, we can check it out together. Come over to the east coast, we'll check out that cheese together.
- [28:36]
Toriano Gordon
I wanna try that. I mean, mean, I, I've tried Violife, I've tried all the cheeses, trust me. Except that what I've never heard of Riverdale diet is not the best tasting cheese, of course, but it melts the best. So as far as I've tried every single cheese that you could name. Trust me, I'm chef and I put, I put. But the melting is what I'm looking for because I can make any of the cheese, its flavors taste good. Because I'm really good at that. It's not about the. I don't like any of the cheeses by its too much though. Follow your heart for a burger though, right?
- [29:15]
Kusha Navadar
And Jen, we want to thank you for that, for that call. So Toriano, your first section in the book after the introduction is about the soul that goes into your Soul food. And, you know, we've been talking this whole interview about how much of this is about your family and a lot of the women in your family in particular. You say that your soul in the kitchen was inherited from your grandmother, which is a beautiful sentiment. What does soul mean to you and what does it like, look, look like as you're cooking?
- [29:41]
Toriano Gordon
I guess you know what it is. It's just the deep down inside, I feel like your soul is your inside. It's. It's your roots. It's. It's, you know, it's who you are is what represents you. You know, it. My grandmother represented family. She represented love. She represented sharing. She represented selflessness, you know, and I believe that's what it is, you know, and just togetherness, all of that. So just remember myself just being in my grandmother's kitchen, just having that passed down to me, you know, just. Just giving me all the Texas.
- [30:30]
Kusha Navadar
Yeah. Beautiful memories. Wonderful taste, beautiful soul. Yeah. We've been talking to Toriano Gordon, who's the chef and owner of Vegan Mob in Oakland and author of the new cookbook. His roots are in the Philmo, which is in San Francisco. Don't get it wrong. Vegan Mob, Vegan barbecue and Soul Food is the name of his book. Toriano, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much.
- [30:51]
Toriano Gordon
I appreciate you. I appreciate you.
- [30:54]
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- [31:24]
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- [31:51]
Toriano Gordon
Let's go.