Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Activist and Painter Mary Lovelace O'Neal's New Chelsea Gallery Show"

Date: April 15, 2024
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guests: Mary Lovelace O’Neal (artist, activist), Marianne Boesky (gallery founder)
Episode Focus: A conversation about Mary Lovelace O’Neal’s new solo show Hecho en México a Mano ("Made in Mexico by hand") at the Marianne Boesky Gallery, coinciding with her inclusion in the 2024 Whitney Biennial.

Main Theme and Purpose

The episode delves into the artistry and activism of Mary Lovelace O’Neal, exploring her latest body of work created in Mérida, Mexico. The discussion covers her creative process, the significance of working in a new environment, technical and conceptual approaches to her monumental paintings (notably her use of black pigment), and how her past and present work intertwine. The conversation is contextualized within the art world by gallerist Marianne Boesky, who also shares insights into curating the exhibition.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origins and Inspiration of O’Neal’s New Work

[03:11–06:43]

• Reluctance to Call It "Inspiration":

  • O’Neal describes her urge to work less as inspiration and more as something prompted by “guilt”—specifically, guilt from having a beautiful new studio in Mérida, Mexico, given to her by her husband as a “bribe” to make her feel at home there.
    • “It's guilt, you know, guilt that I've been given this beautiful, beautiful studio. It's pristine, it's virginal, and I haven't made a thing.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [03:27]

• Adapting to New Environment:
  New location meant none of her familiar tools or comforts, which forced her into stillness and eventual creativity.

  • “I don't have a bunch of things like my own thing. ... So I'm sitting there, and I don't smoke anymore. So I'm really just sitting there. I can't even sweep. Sweep up butts of various kinds. You know, I just have to sit there and be with that space.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [05:03]

• Aging and Ability:
  Openly discusses how aging and disability affect her art-making, and her process has changed with support from assistants.

  • “I am disabled to a great degree, considering who I used to be. I'm 82, but not all 82s are as disabled as I am, especially painters. ... I'm grateful and entirely blessed.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [05:30]

• Discomfort as Motivation:

  • “It's more the discomfort that gets you working because you have to make it your space and your stuff.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [06:43]

2. Creative Process and Artistic Logistics

[06:43–12:50]

• Starting Work and Avoidance:
  O’Neal often sits for days (even weeks) in front of canvases, waiting for the right moment to start: “I know ways to avoid it. Bake a cake, you know, go to a movie. And finally you have to go in there. And by that time, I've gotten enough courage to hit it.” [08:11]

• Process Over Planning:
  Rarely does she start with a set plan—often letting pieces evolve from the first marks.

  • “Rarely do I start with exactly what I'm going after.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [08:53]

• Secret Series:
  Hints at a meaningful, unnamed series with a title that for her is “a very beautiful word” but refuses to discuss it due to social constraints on the language that inspired the work.

3. Exhibition Context and Curatorial Choices

[09:33–14:31]

• Marianne Boesky’s Introduction to O’Neal’s Work:
  First encountered O’Neal’s art in 2019 at Mnuchin Gallery and was struck by its scale, color, and power—especially as the work of a woman artist.

  • “I just couldn't get it out of my mind. I'd never really seen painting like that, especially by a woman.” —Marianne Boesky [09:33]

• Late Work and Artistic Legacy:
  Boesky highlights how this new work draws “iconography and imagery that Mary has used all along” and is influenced by location and personal history.

• Installation Challenges:
  O’Neal’s large multi-panel works (diptychs, triptychs, quadriptychs) meant pieces had to be shifted and recombined in the studio and gallery to suit the space and exhibition narrative.

  • “A lot of the pieces are puzzles that can fit together in multiple ways. But when she does finally decide, there's a lyricism to the work that I find striking, especially because there's so much of the black background that she allows a viewer to step inside...” —Marianne Boesky [14:31]

• Gallery Space as Canvas:
  Boesky and O’Neal collaborated to select, arrange, and give “room” to each large painting, especially the two 20-foot pieces that anchored the show.

4. "The Black" – Technical, Emotional, Historical Dimensions

[17:31–21:41]

• Signature Use of Black:
  In O’Neal’s body of work, black is not merely a color but a texture, a space, and an evolving material:

  • Early work involved “lamp black,” a powdery pigment rubbed into the canvas; now, for health reasons, she uses acrylics, oils, pastels, and chalks.
  • “The black came into my life in graduate school at Columbia and has remained, but it has taken on different substances because I could no longer use the lamp black pigment in great quantities, because those pigments were making me sick, because it's just like working in a coal mine.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [18:54]

• Material and Spiritual Relationship:
  Describes the act of painting as a kind of push-pull:

  • “When there's canvas on the stretcher bar, it tends to breathe. As you push in, it pushes back. ... There came a time when I needed to have a different kind of contact with the making so that I could have this almost breathing counterpart.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [19:39]

• Black as Space and Structure:
  Treats black as a spatial and mathematical element:

  • “The black has taught me so much about what my space was about...It's math in some way.” —Mary Lovelace O’Neal [21:35]

5. Closing and Reflections

[21:41–22:18]

• Work on View:
  The exhibition is on view at the Marianne Boesky Gallery and in the 2024 Whitney Biennial; O’Neal urges listeners to see the work in person.

• Invitation to See More:

  • "Can I say one thing before we..." —Mary Lovelace O’Neal
    "This is at the Whitney, that they should see this at the Whitney." [22:13]

Notable Quotes

Mary Lovelace O’Neal [03:27]
"It's guilt, you know, guilt that I been given this beautiful, beautiful studio. It's pristine, it's virginal, and I haven't made a thing."

Marianne Boesky [09:33]
"I just couldn't get it out of my mind. I'd never really seen painting like that, especially by a woman."

Mary Lovelace O’Neal [19:39]
"When there's canvas on the stretcher bar, it tends to breathe. As you push in, it pushes back. ... There came a time when I needed to have a different kind of contact with the making so that I could have this almost breathing counterpart."

Mary Lovelace O’Neal [21:35]
"The black has taught me so much about what my space was about...It's math in some way."

Key Timestamps

• [03:11] – Mary Lovelace O’Neal on “guilt” as creative motivation
• [05:03] – Adjusting to the new environment and her current physical limitations
• [06:43] – Discomfort and process as drivers of creativity
• [09:33] – Marianne Boesky’s first experience of O’Neal’s work
• [14:31] – Installation and logistics behind the exhibition
• [17:31] – Deep dive into the use and evolution of black pigment
• [19:39] – O’Neal on the physical and metaphorical “breathing” of canvas and paint
• [21:35] – Black as mathematical and spatial structuring device
• [22:13] – O’Neal’s final encouragement to see her work at the Whitney

Tone and Style

The conversation is intimate, candid, and often humorous—O’Neal is self-deprecating, reflective, and lively. Marianne Boesky is admiring, precise, and collaborative. Kusha Navadar is enthusiastic and sensitive, guiding the discussion with curiosity about process, materials, and the intertwining of artistic creation with personal and political histories.

For Listeners

This episode offers a rare window into the challenges and joys of being an artist late in life, the interplay between environment and creativity, and the possibilities of abstract art as both personal expression and cultural commentary. O’Neal’s candidness and Boesky’s insights provide deeper context for the physical and symbolic contours of O’Neal’s new paintings—especially their monumental scale and the complex power of blackness as both pigment and presence in her art.

Suggested in-person experiences:

• Visit Hecho en México a Mano at the Marianne Boesky Gallery (through May 4, 2024)
• See O’Neal’s work at the 2024 Whitney Biennial