← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Alex Rodriguez the Man vs. ARod the Controversial Sports Personality
00:27:06
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- [00:10]
A
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Alex Rodriguez is one of the most accomplished athletes in professional sports history. He's also one of its most polarizing. Everything he did, he did big. He broke into Major League Baseball at 17 as a first round draft pick. At the time, he was the most awarded most was the most awarded the most lucrative contract in sports history at 25, when the Texas Rangers paid him $252 million. That attention that deal brought him only intensified when he was traded to the New York Yankees. And Alex delivered. He holds the record for the most grand slams. He was the 14 time All Star. There were World Series victories. You, you get the picture. But Alex Rodriguez broke another Major League baseball record in 2014 when he was suspended for an entire season for using performance enhancing drugs. It was his second time caught doping after promising it wouldn't happen again. Which begs the question, why would a player who is so talented cheat? He referenced this in his retirement speech at Yankee Stadium in 2016.
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B
I can't say enough about these fans. I've given these fans a lot of headaches over the years and I've disappointed a lot of people. But like I've always said, you don't have to be defined by your mistakes. How you come back matters too.
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A
A new HBO docu series provides more insight. It is titled Alex versus A Rod. Joining me now to talk about it is its co director, Gautham Chopra. Gautam, welcome to all of it.
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B
Yeah, thanks for having me.
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A
What was your experience with Alex Rodriguez before the documentary?
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B
I mean, I didn't have any personal relationship with him other than I'm a die hard Red Sox fan. So I like a lot of people hated A Rod, you know, and I knew him as a Rod. He was iconic. But for, you know, from Red Sox perspective for all the wrong reasons. And I mean it was not personal but like I didn't like the guy and I probably believed most of everything I'd read about him, which was mostly not good, at least from the Boston perspective. But that did change pretty dramatically when I did meet him. Now, going back three and a half years ago, we had a breakfast here in Los Angeles and it was very revealing to me, you know, as a, as a filmmaker, as a storyteller.
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A
What made you want to tell the story of Alex Rodriguez?
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B
I mean, it was that, you know, it was that my immediate recognition in that breakfast, hearing him, listening to him, understanding one, that he was pretty self aware, like he, he knew like how people thought about him and and also, I guess that, like, as a filmmaker, you know, you know that films can only be as good as the characters and characters are good when they're complicated. And, you know, with Alex, there was already a very public narrative. I. The sports fan, as a Red Sox fan, kind of was familiar with that narrative as a cheater, as, you know, a guy so aloof and out of touch and everything. And then in that very, very brief glimpse at that breakfast, a guy was self aware, who's thoughtful, who is now, you know, a father at the time of, you know, pretty young girls, teenage girls, and just, you know, really also, you know, his reasons for wanting. And obviously we were meeting to talk about the potential of collaborating together. His at the time at least willingness to be accountable, to take account. That was obviously interesting to me.
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A
Was he eager to tell his side of the story?
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B
I. I don't know that he was. Yeah, I think he was eager to tell, like, you know, his reasoning. You know, he said this in other interviews and certainly is like his story had been, in his opinion, told so many times, not from his point of view and covered. He's one of the most scrutinized athletes and really at an interesting moment because it was largely, certainly when he started out and as you referenced in your introduction, when he got traded from the Mariners then to the Rangers and signed the big contract and all of that, it was pre social media. So he had all this attention in a time when that was, you know, before we cover everything to death. And so, yeah, he felt like it had been told many times, but not really from his point of view. And I wouldn't say he was eager, but he was willing. He was stepping into the possibility of doing it.
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A
For someone listening to this who has no interest in sports whatsoever, how would you explain it to the average person that would get them interested in watching this docu series?
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B
Yeah, so I'd say, you know, that's. It's a great question because it's sort of how we approach or how I approach, you know, these stories is, okay, why somebody who doesn't care about baseball or, you know, doesn't like the Yankees or whatever it is, like, why are they going to care about this? And I think, you know, the thing is with Alex, he was a celebrity, you know, beyond baseball, and he was one of the, you know, players that really transcended the sport. So this is about perhaps one of the greatest baseball players of his generation, one of the most famous people who screwed up on the most public stage. And then how he sort of climbed his way out of that hole. And in that way, the baseball of it all is not. He should be, in my opinion, a Hall of Famer. I mean, he certainly has the stats and all of that, but the baseball part isn't relatable. That's sort of mythic in terms of what he accomplished on the baseball field. But this, the mistakes and then the taking account of the mistakes and then climbing out of the hole and that, you know, is there a deep, deep hole both in his career but also psychologically, mentally, emotionally? That's human. That is, you know, very human. What's not, again, human is necessarily doing it on such a public stage, having so much scrutiny. But that process of how do I right the wrongs of my past? That's pretty relatable and, I think, redeemable. And so that's really what this is a story about.
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A
I'm speaking with Gautham Chopra, the director of the HBO sports documentary series Alex vs. A Rod. It's about the complicated career of baseball superstar Alex Rodriguez. Part one aired last Thursday. Part two coming this Thursday. Part three airs on 11 20. So you clearly had a lot of access to Alex and the people in his life. What kind of ground rules did you set as a documentary filmmaker?
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B
I mean, the only ground rules really are we have to be willing to go there. And I mean, in some ways, that was the premise of this project. We weren't necessarily collectively signing up to do the definitive biopic from the Cradle to the Grave sort of stuff. I mean, Alex, by the way, is 50 years old, and he's accomplished a lot since his baseball career is over and he's got, who knows, a bright future, I hope. But that wasn't necessarily what this story was about. It was about the mistakes. It was about this thing that he did on the most public stage and taking account. So that was the premise from day one. This is what we're talking about. Right? And he was up for it. It doesn't mean you figured it all out and you necessarily set rules of how you're going to talk about it, but we're going to do that. And then the other thing is, it's probably not going to be smooth sailing. We're not going to agree on everything, and I'll certainly listen. We're going to be partners and collaborators. But I. And in this case, hbo, will have sort of the final say creatively. And that's, again, like, that's just something you kind of establish up front, especially when you sense that you're going to Go into some areas and some tricky areas. And it doesn't mean you're not going to listen and be sensitive to some of the things that he may be sensitive to, but sensitive about. But that's a ground rule. And beyond that, there were no, like, oh, we'll talk about this, but we won't talk about that. It wasn't, you know, there were no necessarily rules of engagement.
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A
So that's how you kept your journalistic practices intact.
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B
Yeah, it is. And look, I've been, you know, my background is as a journalist and reporter and I would, I, you know, I was sort of careful to say I'm not a reporter in this case, I'm a storyteller. I mean, now you have a lot of the same, you want to be objective, you want to get to the truth of something. But storytelling is different than journalism. And certainly you're doing it with the partnership of the subject. In this case, it's not like we came in and did a documentary on Alex Rodriguez. We did it with him. And so that brings with it a different set of, of standards. Again, I would say everything is truthful and stuff like that. But, you know, when I say it's 100% the whole truth, it can't be, you know, it can't be. And you know, so. But yes, we maintain those standards and that sense of objectivity.
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A
There's two very interesting things that happen within, like the first five minutes of the film. You start the doc with him suggesting to you how maybe you should start the doc, how he should walk, walk into frame. And then you use, use his explanation to you and then you show him walking into the frame. What does that moment tell you about Alex Rodriguez?
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B
One, I mean, he's incredibly self aware, right? Like he's still very much the guy who's trying to craft the way in which he's perceived. And so there's an element of, I don't want to call it staging anything, but hey, what do you think of this? Like, this is how documentaries start, right? And so, yeah, we sort of, I'd say the other element is, and I've, you know, so many people have watched it now and given me people like, oh, that's really sweet, that's funny, that's cute. You know, there's a playfulness to it. And that's also Alex, I think a lot of people think of him as this manipulative cheater, all of that. And there's something that comes across in that moment that's pretty funny and I think playful and quite Redeeming in its own way. So, I mean, I leave it up to people to interpret it how they want. But yeah, I mean, it's. Again, it partly goes back to your other question of like, hey, we're just trying to show you in some ways how the sausage was made. I mean, it's a little brief moment, but trying to give some visibility. Because part of making a documentary or a story is it's the choices you make. What goes in and what goes out. And you're not just throwing up cameras and then keeping them on for the next two years or however long this took to make. You're making choices of what goes in and goes out. Sometimes you try to, like, here's some of the things that normally wouldn't go in, but we're going to put it in. So you kind of see how this is crafted.
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A
And then the next thing you ask him is about his use of performance enhancing drugs. And you ask him, are you going to be honest about it? What did you think his answer was going to be?
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B
Well, I was hoping we had talked certainly about it off camera and it's, yes, but I think I knew. And I think in that he says, well, it's complicated. Or he actually, in that first, first. First time I asked him, he sort of uses an example of like, well, let me give you an example of answering a simple question about performance enhancing drugs. And he sort of gives the answer that he gave largely for his career where he, you know, he himself at a certain point says, you know, I came across as slippery because I never gave the total truthful answer. I always tried to maneuver around it. So he gives one version of that and. And then he gives the version that's Alex now, you know, 50 years old perspective, having gone through a lot of therapy, you know, being outside of the game, having, being a parent, he sort of gives the, hey, I'm the one who's responsible for the mistakes I made.
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A
You know, he used the word slippery a lot in the documentary. Do you have a sense of what that means to him?
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B
Yeah, dishonest, you know, and untruthful and not. And. But it stems a lot from. It's not like just. I mean, there's certainly times that he just openly, brashly lied, but there were a lot of times when he was sort of dancing around the truth, elements of the truth, but then not giving the full account. And so I think that's almost even more slippery where you're, you know, you're admitting to certain things but not the full thing. And you just sort of get lost in the. In the gray. And he was an expert. And, you know, look, I empathize with it sometimes too, because it was on such a huge public stage. I mean, it was the New York Yankees. I mean, it is, you know, one of the biggest institutions in sports in the biggest, most, you know, media crazed city possibly in the world. So. And he just wasn't equipped to deal with it.
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A
We're talking about the new docu series Alex versus A Rod. My guest is Gautam Chopa. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of It. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Gautham Chopra. He's a co director of the HBO sports documentary series Alex vs. A Rod. Part one aired last week. Part two airs this Thursday, and part three airs on 11 20. It's about the complicated career of baseball superstar Alex Rodriguez. Okay. So the documentary explores Alex the man and A Rod the player. Could you explain the difference, what you saw as the difference?
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B
Yeah. So, you know, A Rod is this Persona that in some ways was created on the baseball field initially because of just how incredible this guy. So A Rod was a nickname that Seattle Mariners broadcast just aware Alex started his baseball career, A Rod was this nickname that the broadcaster gave him in part just because how awesome he was. And that awesomeness really defined the early part of his career, first on the Mariners, then when he got traded to the Texas Rangers. But over time, A Rod became larger than baseball Persona, and a lot of it had to do with this contract that he signed for $252 million. When he got traded, that was the early 2000s or I think around 2000 to the Texas Rangers. And, you know, Alex was ahead of his time. Now it's somewhat commonplace. We hear a lot about athletes signing these massive deals and the hundreds of millions of dollars. But Alex was way before he was the first in that way. And I think that brought a lot of anger, resentment, jealousy, just disbelief. And the A Rod Persona, which Alex definitely participated to, was almost in response to that. He became this character more than he became a person. And just all this venom and in his way, in his own response, defensiveness and guilt and shame. And a lot of it has to do with his, you know, his family background, his childhood. So that's A Rod. It's like this Persona that just grew and grew and grew all throughout his career. Alex is the human being underneath that. And Alex has a complicated backstory, which we get into a lot in the, you know, his father left him when he was 9, 10 years old. But Alex is this person that, especially Now, I think 50 years old, a lot of perspective, has some self awareness of who he is, the mistakes that he made, what he aspires to. And so those are the two. A rod is a character, Alex is a human being.
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A
You interviewed a lot of people who are close to Alex, including his ex wife, Cynthia. She describes him as being stunted. Why did she describe him that way?
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B
Yeah, Cynthia really, you know, in my opinion, steals the show. I mean one, it was just amazing that she was willing to participate in this. And you sort of. I got underneath that, you know, I, along with my co director, Eric Ledrew, got to know her pretty well and she's an amazing woman and they have a great relationship and not just because they're raising, co parenting, two daughters, but because I think of this bond that they have that's even endured beyond their marriage. So yes, she's really interesting. And she describes him as stunted because she's like, listen, he missed a lot of the milestones that most of us go through as kids to teenagers, to young adults. He went from basically, maybe when he started playing baseball 12, 13 years old at somewhat more organized level, you could see the talent. And so he was just a superstar. And by the time he was 17, 18 years old, he was one of the most scouted baseball players in all of high school. He was getting scholarship offers, but really he was getting the attention of major league baseball. And he ends up at 18 years old, becoming the number one pick of the Seattle Mariners. And I think with that becomes this massive acceleration. He doesn't go to college, he doesn't hit the milestones, he doesn't have the experiences that most of us do and are seminal to us as we become adults. He's a superstar. And then all this money and all this fame and everything that comes with that. And so by the time she meets with him, meets him, and it's, I think in his early 20s, you know, he's just missed so many of those formative moments in his life. And I think that's what she means, like, and she, she's a really interesting person. She has a degree in psychology, et cetera. So she's like incredibly, she goes in.
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A
She goes in, in the documentary and there's just this great shot you have of him which I think tells a lot. He's young, he's being interviewed, he's very young. And he turns around and he trips and Trips in the pool.
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Yeah.
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A
And you can kind of see, like, there's trouble ahead.
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Yeah, there's trouble ahead. He's also just, for all his incredible accomplishments, he's a clumsy teenager, you know, and it's like, yeah, you can, you know, I think in that moment, his, his, his half brother is talking about, like, it's just, he's also foreboding, like, yeah, he was incredibly talented on the baseball field, but he was still a kid and he wasn't prepared for what is, you know, coming for him. And yeah, we found that amazing clip of him, like, stumbling in front of.
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A
The whole, like, press pool. He just, like, falls in the pool. Yeah, it's a, it's a big part of the documentary. I don't want to get into it in too much depth because you get into it quite a bit. Alex's father left home when he was 10. He hadn't seen him in 14 years. Cynthia arranges an opportunity for them to meet later. I was curious if you asked him this, why didn't Alex try to find his father?
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B
I mean, yeah, we talked about it. I mean, I think there's so much packed into that moment, that part of his life. When his father, you know, left 9, 10 years old, you know, it was pretty dire straits. They were not a well to do family before that. And now losing that stability, but also, frankly, that income and his mom had to start, you know, working multiple jobs. And this is where, you know, I think Alex again had to grow up. And, you know, he started thinking even at that young age, probably 13, 14 years old, like, baseball was no longer a thing that he just loved and was going to have fun. It was a responsibility and it was going to be the thing that saved his family, saved his mother in particular. And so he just started focusing and locking in on that. And I think that's part of it. He just didn't have in his mind time. But I think there was just also all this sadness that then turned into anger and resentment and, you know, in a way, and, you know, he would say, I think that, like, it sort of became partly the fuel for him to reach the levels that he did in baseball, which initially were just awesome. Like before, you know, all the BDS and all the other stuff, you know, it, it sort of was that catalyst, in a way. His absent father.
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A
What is. What about his mother?
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B
His mother's incredibly, you know, strong woman. She, you know, basically raised him and a sister and a half brother by herself. You know, after the, after the dad left, she worked multiple jobs and all of that. So it's, you know, it's an archetypal story in many ways. She's on food stamps. Alex talks about that remembering like, you know, those $500 rent that had to be paid every month and just how much stress that created. And you know, he talks about how he went from that remembering that in his early teens to signing this $252 million. And that's in some ways like a metaphor for this wild journey he went on, which on the one hand is amazing. On the other it just created so much instability. And he says shame because you know, he didn't really, he wasn't equipped to handle it.
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A
He spoke very frankly with you in the film about his use of performance enhancing drugs which he, he lied about for years. You have Katie Couric in the documentary, just him lying to her face about it. At the end of the day, why did he lie?
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B
I think he was just like in a house of mirrors and he knew that he had crossed a line and you know, he loved the game so much he didn't want to lose it. He's very concerned about his reputation and you know, frankly, others lied about it and gotten away with it. And so he, you know, thought like, well, why can't I? And so I think that's probably. And he, he wanted to. And there was just so much at stake. There was a lot of money at stake because once, you know, you admit it and then you have to take account and you know, deal with the repercussions of it. You know, baseball, there's all sorts of, you know, terms in your agreement and eventually the Yankees did, you know, there was a lot of the second time around, you know, there was a lot of financial repercussions about, around that. So there's also just tons, tens of millions of dollars at stake.
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A
Alex saw a therapist he calls Dr. David and he recree, he credits him with quote, rewiring his brain. And honestly, as you watch him as a 50 year old person, he looks like he has been through a, of therapy in his life. He's a very therapized person. What did he figure out in therapy?
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B
Well, it's interesting because you know, Dr. David, who gives a lot of credit, but Dr. David is for, for you know, his, his life basically. But Dr. David passed away I think in 2020. So in some ways his therapy, I mean I think he's still in therapy but like at least that version, that therapist is incomplete, complete. But you know, I think again like just what he learned about is just like one getting underneath it. So understanding the roots of also, you know, going back to his father leaving, you know, when he was 9 or 10 years old, and then this endless quest to gain the approval of the people around him, maybe to somehow gain the approval even of his father in his absence and all of that. So I think it's just getting underneath that. But I think it's also then realizing, well, like, he. You got no one left to blame at a certain point, and now you have people that are counting on you, and the only way, you know, to sort of be responsible is to take account for that. So, you know, at least the way he describes it. I never met Dr. David, but I certainly heard a lot about him, is the guy was pretty merciless in that way. He was sort of like, you know, the. The coach that Alex needed. Like, you don't get to blame anyone else at this point. You can't blame lawyers, you can't blame agents. You can't blame other people. This is on you now. And, you know, when Alex met him, he was like, still a very young man. So there's a long life ahead. So you want to live a productive life, then you better come to terms with this.
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A
What is Alex Rodriguez doing today?
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B
So Alex is, you know, incredibly accomplished one. He's a major league baseball broadcaster for one, multiple Emmys for Fox. He just covered the World Series. I mean, I'd say he's one of the foremost baseball minds. I mean, the guy still, like, you know, loves baseball more than anyone, I think, ever. And so he loves covering it. He's also an entrepreneur and businessman. He's the co owner of the Minnesota Timberwolves and NBA team. So he's taking all of that life that he led on a baseball team in team sports within an organization, especially like the Yankees and now sort of integrating that, but as an owner. So he's successful and accomplished. And I'd say, you know, and the.
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A
W. NBA team, too.
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B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the, you know, the Minnesota team in the. In the wnba, that. But I would say the thing Alex would say, I mean, I've been around him so much the last couple of years that he's most proud of is, you know, he's a father to two daughters. One is a sophomore, I think, in college, and then one's a senior in high school and very close, very close and a good role model for them.
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A
The name of the sports series, the HBO sports documentary series is Alex Versus a Rod. I've been talking with Gautham Chopra. Thanks so much for being with us.
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B
Thanks for having me.
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A
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