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David Fuerst
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. Coming up on tomorrow's show, we'll learn about the life of one of the country's most radical founding fathers. Hear from Pulitzer Prize winning biographer Stacy Schiff about her book the Revolutionary Samuel Adams. Plus, we'll hear from Amanda Vail, the author of Pride and the Schuyler Sisters in an Age of Revolution. It tells the story of Angelica, Eliza and Peggy Schuyler, sisters in a prominent New York family in revolutionary America. But right now, let's keep the revolutionary theme going with a new exhibit at the South Street Seaport Museum. This Saturday marks America's 250th birthday, the anniversary of the adoption of the Declaration of Independence, with its enduring promise of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Though not always fully realized, a new exhibition explores how this promise remains an aspiration that we continue to pursue today. It's called the Promise of Words that Shaped a nation. Spanning a single floor of a dimly lit historic warehouse, it brings together rare founding documents alongside artifacts from pivotal moments in American history that trace how the nation's defining ideals have been challenged, expanded, and reimagined over the past two and a half centuries. On display we have copies of the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. The alongside, handwritten pages from an undelivered inaugural address by George Washington, the Emancipation Proclamation, and an advance copy of Martin Luther, excuse me, Martin Luther King Jr. S March on Washington speech, the Promise of Liberty, the Words that Shaped a Nation. It's on display at the south street Seaports Museum's A.A. thompson Co. Warehouse on 213 Water street in Manhattan.
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Caller Olivia
And.
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David Fuerst
And joining us now to discuss all of this, we have South Street Seaport Museum President, Jonathan Bulwer. Welcome.
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Jonathan Bulwer
Nice to be with you.
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David Fuerst
And we also have Seaport Museum's Director of collections and exhibitions, Martina Caruso. Welcome to all of it.
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Martina Caruso
Thank you.
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David Fuerst
So tell us, Jonathan, about this exhibition, this show. It's a companion exhibition to the Promise of Liberty at the Peoria Riverfront Museum in Illinois. Right. Which opened earlier this year.
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Jonathan Bulwer
Yeah, that's the genesis of the show. I think in answering this, I have to sort of put us in place and time first. You know, there, I think there's a notion that the Declaration and Independence is very much a sort of Philadelphia Story, or think of Washington D.C. as the Capitol. But in fact, the Seaport Museum, which is on the east river waterfront in the original port of New York, one could argue the birthplace of not just New York City, but of the nation from an economic and immigration standpoint, is located between highly relevant sites. Federal hall, just downtown, where documents were executed. Just uptown from us, George Washington's initial residence, just downtown, Fraunces Tavern, where George Washington bid farewell to his troops. So we were very much in the nexus of where much of this was happening. And the Constitution that you reference, which was loaned to us by Ken Griffin, is one of, I think, 14 copies that are known to exist. And the one that was intended for New York, it actually has a. A page that is addressed to New York as a part of the ratification process. But I think when we think about this show, it did come from sort of the. Seth Koller, the curator who did the show in Peoria, which is a fabulous museum there that I'm just learning about as we're doing this. But it began as sort of, let's do a thing here that's in the place where it happened. And so Ken Griffin's Constitution, first full printing broadside of the United States Constitution, is the centerpiece. But I would call this sort of opening paragraph and the closing paragraph, or opening brackets, closed bracket are the Declaration 1776, and MLK's commonly known I have a Dream speech.
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David Fuerst
Right.
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Jonathan Bulwer
So it's not in the notes. That was extemporaneous and we can, we can talk about that. But, you know, we think of these as foundational documents as opposed to founding documents. And I think there's a notion that the Constitution was sort of fully formed by men of great wisdom. But in fact, we know that it was amended right away. We know that it was a work in progress. And so in thinking about these as foundational documents, we're saying, well, the Declaration was a shot across the bow. It enumerated grievances against the King and articulated a purpose for a new system of government. And mlk, centuries later would say that this was a promissory note. The Declaration and the Constitution constitute promissory notes to which all Americans shall fall heir. And when you put that in context with the writings of Frederick Douglass, with emancipation, with suffrage, you begin to see the work that has been ongoing for all of these 250 years toward a more perfect union.
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David Fuerst
Well, Martina, talk about bringing this to New York City. How did the South Street Seaport Museum work with the curator Seth Koller to provide this unique experience here? And what was the idea? Was this really getting together a greatest hits of America's documents?
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Martina Caruso
It's one way to put it. I think what was particularly magical of this experience was working with Set Kowler. He is an incredible dealer of historical documents and he has access to a lot of private collector within the United States that have really incredible unique documents. So they are not in the public view, that not that many institutions are aware they are in private hands. And he knows who those collectors are. He advised them. Right. So the really beauty of this collection of document that we have on loan is the fact that they are rarely being viewed. They are often in private hands. And those collectors were really happy to put them on view, to have the public see it, starting from Ken Griffin all the way until the collector of the Declaration of Independence that want to remain anonymous. But they were really, really happy to finally put their copy of the Declaration of Independence on view, to have people to see it.
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David Fuerst
I'm just thinking about the responsibility that you have when you get these documents in your hands, Jonathan, not only to take care of them and to make sure that they're handled and preserved properly, but so that they're displayed so the public can enjoy it.
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Jonathan Bulwer
Yeah, I think that's what's actually really been very emotional for me about this, is that, you know, I read the Constitution. I mean, maybe I didn't. I read the Declaration certainly when I was in grade school. I think we all did. I hadn't candidly read it since. And not only has this prompted me to sort of to. To reread these things and think about what this experiment, this American experiment means as a person who grew up in, you know, American public schools and, and had my, you know, sort of that. That articulation of history. But I think I was really unprepared for the visceral emotional response that I would have to being in the context and being in the physical space with the signature of John Hancock or the mimeographed. Right. Which is like, you know, that's a dated word. Already thousands of copies were issued in 1963 of the advance notes for Martin Luther King's speech, but few remain. And, you know, I think for me, even as I'm describing this to you here in the studio, I'm choked up a little bit in thinking about this sort of the Declaration on one side, MLK on the other, and in the center, thematically, is the Constitution, and that these are, you know, again, with, like, broadsides about calls to arms for black sailors during the Revolutionary War or suffrage posters articulating why women ought to have the right to vote. It's powerful stuff. It's potent and it's emotional. But what I'm particularly excited about, and this is where some of our donors or lenders of these documents were very clear, is that getting school kids in to see these things in the flesh, I think if I had had that experience, I might have had a different experience of learning American history.
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David Fuerst
And let me just say, before we get too carried away, listeners, if you would like to join this conversation, we'd love to hear from you. How have you been reflecting on America's history and the ideals it was built on? As we reach the 250th anniversary, what do you remember learning most about the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights in school? Or did you study Martin Luther King Jr. S March on Washington speech? What questions do you have about New York City's role in defining America's history? Give us a call or text us. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. And, Martina, can you tell us a little more about how we will engage with these documents at the Seaport Museum. Because I think about going to the national archives in Washington D.C. it's a very popular place. There's huge crow responsibility with people crowding around me that I can't look at this thing for too long. Do we have time to appreciate what is on display here?
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Martina Caruso
Definitely, we definitely have time. There's no time ticket or any kind of this kind of guidance. We have guards on the floor. But it's an exhibit, it is freely accessible. We really plan it to have as much time as possible to digest the document and the correlative information around them for that reason. For example, we didn't really tape every wall or every section with text and interpretational text. We created a particular guide. It is a handout that you can pick up when you arrived and read it throughout the exhibition. Or you can learn more about this object online. We have an online app on Bloomberg Connects that give you information about every object in different languages. You can hear it. We have different staff member recorded or audio and talk about these objects. So you can really have a multi phase, multi sensorial experience, if you please. And it's a really powerful way to see this document because again, they're not in an environment that make you feel you're sort of scared or concerned about where you're at, right. They're really accessible. You can see them really close and it's really powerful. There's some of these seeing material culture, seeing for example, this broadside of the Declaration of Independence. It's magic because you can go close and you, you can see the fold in between this document that used to be applied to a wall. And you can imagine that someone at some point remove it and fold it and put it in their pocket and go away. You can see really the materiality of some of these documents that you study at school, that you hear in many conversations. But seeing really the actual thing sometimes is the beauty of my job as a director of collection and exhibition often is to see the things firsthand. And I'm really happy that we have the occasion to share it with everyone else.
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David Fuerst
I'm thinking about the crowds coming in and what this weekend might be like, the July 4th weekend. America's at 2-50-0th. How are you both preparing for the crowds and what else are you dealing with and putting on this weekend?
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Jonathan Bulwer
There's a lot going on. We have somebody. People may have heard there's a World Cup. There is also Fleet Week and there is also the Sail 4th250 event, which is bringing tall ships from around the world for a sail in in New harbor, a la op sail of 76, 86, 2000 and so on. So some of those ships are coming to our east river piers over in Brooklyn Bridge park and on the west side as well as in New Jersey. Lots of events around that, including a huge event in New York harbor on July 4th, of course, the Macy's fireworks. They're also celebrating 50 years. And in the east river right off of the museum's piers, where we're having a public event with thousands of people. And so when we think about all the things that are going on, you know, there's a series of safety management exercises that have to do with keeping people, you know, with access to cooling in these hot temperatures, in working with the three events all at once. Right. The major sail in event, Macy's fireworks, and of course, the World cup happening at the same time. So I think we've got about as much going on as we have ever had.
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David Fuerst
Your hands are full. Well, thank you for joining us today. Thank you both. We're talking about the exhibition the Promise of Words that Shaped a Nation. It's on view at the South Street Seaport Museum in Manhattan. And it is great to have you both. We're gonna take a call in just a moment, but maybe you can both address this. But, Martina, a lot of people know the Declaration, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights. Are there some other slightly lesser known documents that maybe. Is there a favorite you'd like to point us out to in this exhibition that we shouldn't miss?
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Martina Caruso
It's hard. Everything is a favor. I feel like. May we have two pages of the autograph speech or speech that George Washington prepared, which he never ended up giving when he was inaugurated. It was a 73 document pages handwritten. We have two pages of the speech. And he eventually gave them to President Madison. Madison, who ended up making a short version of it. But they're really powerful because you can see his in writing and read really clearly because his cursive is really clear so everyone can read it compared to others. And they are paired with three buttons that. They are buttons that were made for the inauguration of George Washington. They're really rare and they're sort of the first political memorabilia collectibles. Wow, I am not an American citizen.
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David Fuerst
Buttons for his inauguration.
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Martina Caruso
Yeah. It's kind of incredible because the first time I learned about it and I realized that this was coming on view, I was like, you know, I'm not an American citizen, I come from Italy, I'm from Milan. And it feels like really like America at the beginning. Like merch was done right away.
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Caller Olivia
Right.
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Martina Caruso
So those buttons are so amazing because they were sell to people to commemorate the event and they're made of brass. And one of them, the Central 1, have 13 colonies circled around themselves and they're just beautiful pieces.
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David Fuerst
Well, see the documents and check out some early merch when you come in. This is all recent history to you, you know, for sure from your perspective in Italy. But if you want to join this conversation, we'll take a call now. The number 212-433-9692. If you have a thought about America's 250th or perhaps a question. 212-433-WNYC. And Olivia, welcome to all of it, calling from Long Island.
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Caller Olivia
Hello, hello. Love you guys. Thank you for having this conversation and every conversation. You guys have my main question and then I'm going to kind of elaborate on it a bit. My main question is where do all of you see America going in the 250 years that we've been a country for now in the way we value a human life against money? And I'm elaborating because, you know, our whole economy in the beginning was, was built off of the backs of slaves. And George Washington, he originally argued for slavery because of an economic issue, but then towards the end of and he was a slave owner himself, of course, and it's all awful. And towards the end of his life, he started to disagree with slavery on a moral basis in seeing that this was wrong to do to a human being, but in the course of his lifetime, what did he do to change it? A little too late for George Washington, but now us, 250 years later, we're still facing this question. Not only do we have the systemic racism now and this power tripping that white people have had for 250 years, all the way to the Ku Klux Klan.
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David Fuerst
Well, Olivia, you're asking a lot of really important questions here. And Jonathan, I'm going to give you the very difficult task of trying to tackle some of this. But Olivia, bringing up some very interesting points, difficult indeed.
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Jonathan Bulwer
That's right. And I think I won't presume to either articulate a path for how we move forward, nor I think can I weigh in on the context of the fabric of society. What I will say, and I'm going to revert back to the sort of invocation of emotion that I said earlier, is that what's been potent for me about being in the context of or in the presence of these documents is to see what looks like work in progress. And it's why, for me, the core of this is the pairing of the Declaration, which is a very stark and abrupt statement. It is not retiring or timid in any way. And then, you know, 1963, Martin Luther King very clearly acknowledging that this is not complete and that there are so many steps along the way here. I made passing reference to the writings of Frederick Douglass earlier, and one of the pieces that's in there is his writing what to the American slave is the Fourth of July, which is an incredibly potent piece of writing. You know, I would say we spend a lot of time looking at the Declaration and the Constitution as the work of really intelligent people putting together a very. A new set of tools, technology and architecture. And I think that is all correct. But I also find it very potent to be in the presence of the writing of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King. In that example, in particular, I would argue, is one of the greatest pieces of American oratory. And with respect to Frederick Douglass, we have one of our greatest thinkers about the fabric of society and placing a gimlet eye on current events. So it is beyond my capacity to answer that question in a solution way. But I can say that to the extent that I have comfort and hope, it lies in that this has been a piece of labor that has been being undertaken by intelligent and dedicated people now for 250 years and more.
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David Fuerst
Once again, the exhibition is called the Promise of Words that Shaped a Nation. It's on view at the South Street Seaport Museum. We're here with Jonathan Bulwer, president of the South Street Seaport Museum, and also Martina Caruso, director of museum collections and exhibitions. And Martina, in the exhibition, there's a poster calling for people to vote for woman's suffrage November 2nd from 1915.
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Martina Caruso
Yes.
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David Fuerst
Is that right? Can you talk about that and the importance of that poster in this exhibition?
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Martina Caruso
Yeah, as part of the exhibition. So we start the exhibition with the Trial of Peter Zenger in the common sense before 1776. And we travel through time through Martin Luther King Jr. S speech. Right. So there is a section that is titled the American Century that discuss really the major point that we can display at the museum. And one of them is really women's suffrage and Women's suffrage in New York. This poster is particularly powerful because it's one of the few things that we have on view that it is litograph that is colorful, that is not A document, right. So it comes to eyes really quickly and it again is screen printed and lithographed and it kind of conveyed together with a small collection of small pieces of ephemera and broadside, the call for women to be able to vote. There's not a small broadside display next to it. That is the 12 reason why women should Vote. That similar to the Declaration of Independence and the grievances there, you'll see that they're really powerful and really in some way timely. Some of these quotes, they're being extrapolated from this document and put it on walls or in the guide. You read them today and you're like, well, kind of 250 years after, we still have to deal with some of this. Right. So it's a really meaningful exhibition to go through and read it and catch these quotes and these excerpts because it makes you really still think that we are a work in progress, that America is a work in progress.
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David Fuerst
That sounds like a major theme in this exhibition, Jonathan, that this is in every way a work in progress.
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Jonathan Bulwer
That's certainly the way the exhibition makes me feel. And I think that's the response that we've been getting. I'm really proud of it from the standpoint of being a fairly, I'll say open ended, sort of light touch, curatorial and really allowing the documents to speak for themselves. And that's an imperfect articulation. Right. What was written 250 years ago has its flaws. What was written when the Constitution was drafted had its flaws. And we know that because of the trial of Zenger and what would become the First Amendment, which would eventually evolve into the Bill of Rights, which would eventually evolve into abolition and suffrage and any number of enfranchisements that were not existing in that original articulation, as the caller Olivia points out.
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David Fuerst
And we'll take another call right now. Linda calling in from Langhorne, Pennsylvania. Welcome to all of it.
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Caller Olivia
Thank you so much. And this sounds like an amazing show. It sounds like the Constitution that's on display. Could that have been a Dunlap and claypool, like the multiple that was that was distributed? And if so, I'm just curious what the curator's take on the technology and just I've always been really fascinated by that. It was a printed matter and not a one off. And I just would love their take on it.
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David Fuerst
That's great. Thanks for the question. Martina, can you tackle that one?
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Martina Caruso
It is a great comment. Thank you for asking that. Technology is one of the main topics that we like to Elevate. At the South Street Museum, we have a printing office and a large collection of printing presses and printing type. So printing technology and the communication that goes along with it, it's really a key part of what we do every day. So one angle the exhibition has been planned was really to look at these documents and react on the font and the type and the printing of this material and using them to play this document in a manner that makes sense to contextualize in Lower Manhattan printing. So the copy of the Constitution that we have was printed in Philadelphia. All of them are in public hands, two are in private hands, and both of them are in the hands of Ken Griffin. He's not a broadside. It's definitely a printing from Philadelphia. And what is powerful is both the Constitution and the Declaration are printed on a type that is called the Caslan type, sort of like Times New Roman, that kind of material that you are used to when you go on a computer and talk. And the Caslon font was the type of the King of England. So when you think about it, all these early documents were printed on British printing presses with British type, have yet their type foundry and their way to printing their documents. So we use that type we have in the museum collection, in a teaching collection to print and use it as the gateway to talk about printing technology and communication sharing.
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David Fuerst
I love how many things that this exhibition really touches on when you think about it that way, and the evolution of technology and all of that. And, Jonathan, maybe I'll give you another hard job here, a thought to try to wrap this up and pull this all together. Looking across all of these documents, right when you have them all under one roof, from the Declaration to the Emancipation Proclamation to Martin Luther King Jr. S speech, do you see any conversations that they're having with each other as we move through this history?
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Jonathan Bulwer
Yeah, that's the whole ball game. I mean, that's what I'm totally delighted with, is that in bouncing back and forth between these documents, it is. I mean, I get to go in there several times a week right now as we're giving tours and so on, and I have yet to spend all of the time to do the reading. But it's such a lively interaction between themes and documents across time. And I think that's really the core. The question you're asking is, I think the question that the exhibition is proposing, it's what does it mean to begin with a declaration and to sort of culminate, not terminate, because we're, you know, years beyond 1963 and as Olivia pointed out, there's a future ahead of us. But to sort of culminate this exhibition with that question or that statement that these are promissory notes, that's the whole conversation between these documents. And so it's been a, again, light curatorial touch on that, really leaving it to the visitor, the museum goer, to experience these documents themselves. But I've found it to be incredibly enriching. It's also, I think, interesting, a little bit off topic, but I think the technology conversation, the one thing that didn't get mentioned is that in the moment when these broadsides which was mentioned by the prior caller or other printed words were being circulated, it was the only means of communication. And I think it's easy for us in the modern era to forget that we've all got email and text messaging and all things right at hand. And in those days we had the printed word and it was a printing press and it was conveyed physically by Stagecoach or, you know, later Rail, but I mean, very slow by modern standards. But it was also seen as a very trustworthy method of trans. Of transmitting information. And there's also, I think, a much lower literacy rate at that time. So you can imagine these things being published and posted in the public square and then read aloud for those who could not read. And yet I posit, or at least I wonder what the sort of recipients, the consumers of that information, thought about it from a trustworthiness standpoint and how we are today looking at what is provided to us, which is voluminous and rapid and at least for me, somewhat less trustworthy.
- [27:49]
David Fuerst
Well, there wasn't a comment section at the bottom of those.
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Jonathan Bulwer
No. Indeed. There were no questions on opinions from the hoi polloi.
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David Fuerst
Okay. The promise of words that shaped a nation. It's on display at the south street Seaport Museum's A.A. thompson Co. Warehouse, 213 Water St. We've been speaking with South Street Seaport Museum President Jonathan Bulwer and the museum's Director of collections and exhibitions, Martina Caruso. Thanks both of you for joining us today.
- [28:17]
Jonathan Bulwer
Thank you for having us.
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Martina Caruso
Thank you.
- [28:18]
Dr. Horton Announcer
Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national red tag sales event. This Friday, July 10th through Sunday, August 2nd, stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at Incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event. Starting this Friday, discover the Dr. Horton difference. Visit Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder.