Kousha Navadar (2:53)

Shiznall. Let's go with that. Unprecedented Shiznall we'll call it. For now, let's listen to a little bit of the first track. This is Spinning Room.

Ani DiFranco (3:03)

Feeling depleted, feeling dry Much like the blood was sucked out of my veins I lay down in a spinning room In a spinning room. So go ahead, diagnose. Give me a name for my pen.

Kousha Navadar (3:39)

That's Ani DiFranco, whose album is called Unprecedented Shiznal, or at least that's what we're allowed to call it on the radio. It was co produced by BJ Burton, aka Bon Iver, who is DeFranco's first produced collaboration in over a decade. And as we'll hear during this listening party, the album. Scott A much darker, spookier, more experimental sound than DeFranco fans might be used to. A review in the blog Beats Per Minute says that we get to hear on the album quote, one of modern folk music's most revered voices trying something new and nailing it. So let's get into it with Ani DiFranco, who's here with me in the studio right now. Ani, welcome back to all of it.

Ani DiFranco (4:23)

Thank you so much. It's nice to be in this room.

Kousha Navadar (4:25)

It's wonderful to have you in this room right across this table from me. Last time you joined us was was just a year ago to talk about the 25th anniversary of Little Plastic Castle. You've been really busy since then. I just want to know how's life been treating you? How are you?

Ani DiFranco (4:40)

I am dizzy. I'm dizzy. Busy, but been having a lot of fun living in New York for six months now.

Kousha Navadar (4:48)

Yeah.

Ani DiFranco (4:48)

And yeah. Taking part in the in Hadestown, which is a whole new world and life and tribe for me.

Kousha Navadar (4:56)

Absolutely. And we're going to get to Hadestown later on in the interview, but I'd love to start with your new album, which came out last Friday. When did you start writing songs for the album?

Ani DiFranco (5:06)

Well, that's hard to say. I mean, one of the songs actually was written and recorded in 2011. Weirdly, I was digitizing my old master tapes last year and I found that outtake from I think we were making the record which side Are youe On? And there was that song just in the vault somewhere and I revived it, so there's that. And then, I don't know, this collection of songs actually just came about in many different ways for many different purposes. But there's some, you know, hidden logic to how they all fell together on this record, in this moment.

Kousha Navadar (5:48)

You know, what was going on in your life when you decided to try to assemble that and find out that hidden logic.

Ani DiFranco (5:55)

I mean, so many things, so many changes in my life lately, and I can't ever really explain the logic behind how I make a record or even a song or anything that I do. It's sort of very intuitive. My instinct is in charge. And, you know, I had a bunch of new songs and I started thinking about the next record. What was it going to be? And I just knew I wanted to do something different.

Kousha Navadar (6:30)

Yeah, I mean, it's called Unprecedented Shiznall. And it's kind of an unprecedented sound for you, right?

Ani DiFranco (6:37)

Right, yeah, yeah. It has everything to do with BJ Burton. I told my team I want to work with a producer. I want somebody in the cockpit with me, you know, making the big choices and figuring out how to do this. And they sent me a list of like 20 potential people that I wanted to employ the world of machines in a way that I haven't. You know, my albums are sort of put microphones in front of the musicians and record the songs. You know, that's old school thinking. But nowadays making records, you know, musicians playing instruments is like one ingredient in a whole world of possibilities that I've yet to really explore. So I wanted somebody to help me explore. And the top of the list was bj. And I looked at his album credits and I was like, oh, yeah, that guy.

Kousha Navadar (7:33)

Well, you know, this is, if I read correctly, somewhere that you. We hear on this album, your voice and guitar, and that's the origin of all the sounds. Right. It's often processed, like you're saying, with distortion reverb almost beyond recognition in some cases. And it comes courtesy of Bony there, BJ Burton. What did that dynamic look like working with him?

Ani DiFranco (7:54)

Yeah, I mean, I recorded the songs alone at home and I sent them to bj fitting that we should collaborate through many levels of technology, since I was all about leaning into the technology on this one. And so I sent BJ really simple recordings, sometimes just voicing guitar. And with those recordings he created soundscapes. Oh, sometimes. And sometimes he just let left them naked, you know. So I feel like the record is this really startling study in contrasts.

Kousha Navadar (8:29)

Interesting. Let's listen to a little bit of one of those tracks. This is New Bible. Let's listen to it.

Ani DiFranco (8:36)

And deep in my saddlebags I carry a rage for the greedy top feeders and they're invisible Cage oh rise the proletariat Red banners unfurl let's mend the failures of history and the man made world. Let's mend the failures of the profit system let's rewrite the law books Quit following the path of least resistance Cause that's what makes the real crooked let's evolve into our true nature so little flowers can't bloom In a world where relationship is sacred and sacrifice is assumed.

Kousha Navadar (9:36)

That was Ani DiFranco, the singer, songwriter, producer of Unprecedented Chisnall and you know the Broadway debut as Persephone in Hadestown. We are talking to Ani right now in the press notes for the record. This track that we just listened to, New Bible is described as a rallying cry for a new world order. What was the most important message you wanted to communicate through this song?

Ani DiFranco (10:01)

Oh, it's funny that you went to that one. Cause that's the one that I recorded in 2011.

Kousha Navadar (10:05)

Oh wow.

Ani DiFranco (10:06)

But yeah, it does. You know, things don't change as fast and as well as we always hope, but it's just about staying in the. Staying in the struggle. So what did I want to communicate? Just stepping back from some of the biggest assumptions that our society makes, capitalism, patriarchy, and just trying to shake free those assumptions and come new, come new to the game of being together and making a society that is all for one and one for all.

Kousha Navadar (10:45)

So let's say you were declared the sovereign ruler of the world tomorrow.

Ani DiFranco (10:50)

Yeah.

Kousha Navadar (10:51)

What would Ani DeFranco's new world order look like?

Ani DiFranco (10:54)

Oh goodness. Well, you know, one of the first things I would focus on is reproductive freedom. Because I feel like free women, women in possession of all of their civil rights are sort of a prerequisite to solving all the other social and political issues, diseases that we are suffering from. Because I think that all genders must be at the design table for it to come out right. You know, so we need first emancipated, fully engaged women, et cetera, to sort of get it right together, you know, with all of humanity's sensibilities at a balanced interplay. So that might be step one for me.

Kousha Navadar (11:48)

Does that idea of not just health but emancipation show up anywhere else in the album for you?

Ani DiFranco (11:54)

Oh, sure. I mean, I think there's a lot of themes that, that run through the record. I mean, I think more even central to this record is maybe ideas about identity and an even more essential truth of each of us. Beneath identity, beneath story. I think. You know, of course story is so important and can be so liberating, so crucial to our evolution. But also it can be very deceiving. It can lead us so far down into worlds of our own devising and away from nature, away from what is more essentially true. So, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of this record is talking about us as this sort of shared, unified plane of consciousness.

Kousha Navadar (12:54)

Are you speaking from personal experience at all with that?

Ani DiFranco (12:57)

Yeah, I mean, I. More and more so as I get older, I get to know this reality more intimately and thoroughly and with more conviction that beneath all of the labels and things that we're described as, or we describe others as, we are essentially beings of light. And we are all not only family, but one together, you know. So I think there's a lot of this happening in these songs.

Kousha Navadar (13:30)

Is there a label that you've carried that kind of resonates that way to you? I'm not necessarily saying that it's hollow, but more that, like you, at this point, maybe shrug it off to look at something more universal.

Ani DiFranco (13:41)

Oh, so many. Yeah, I've been called so many things, some of them very flattering and others not so much. And, you know, as a public person, I'm perceived many ways by many different people. And it's been a. It's something of a struggle, you know, I guess, to just navigate that and try to outlive all the labels and just continue being me, despite the pressures to be this, that or the other, or go in this direction or stay over there or, you know.

Kousha Navadar (14:19)

And so for you, what are you trying to hold onto as your North Star?

Ani DiFranco (14:23)

I mean, I guess the way we start out as humans, as beings of light within a realm of infinite possibility and constant change. You know, I think the tricky thing about identity is it locks us down, you know, into something. And I think what we really are, naturally, is ever evolving, you know, And I think that's the glory thing about being alive and being embodied.

Kousha Navadar (14:55)

It's reminding me everything that I'm hearing you say of the second track from the album called Virus. Let's listen to a little bit of that. Here it is.

Ani DiFranco (15:08)

I was so deeply pleased to pause this life I think I jinxed the world and caused this strife Yes, I longed so long for fewer nouns I longed so will the world shut down and now the killer is calling the pot black kid, I call you Virus but you don't call me back so I just keep listening to my own voice in the alpha chamber of my choice.

Kousha Navadar (15:52)

That was virus from Ani DiFranco's new album, Unprecedented. Shiznall and Ani, the virus in question most literally probably referring to COVID 19. But how much of the song is about other senses of the word virus?

Ani DiFranco (16:07)

Well, yeah, I mean, that part that you played there, you know, the pot calling the kettle black, that's humans calling Covid, you know, coronavirus, a virus, when we as a species very much are operating like a virus on the planet, destroying the host. So, you know, I guess that's the. What the song is trying to recognize. And, you know, like so many of us, my life, you know, was up to here with nouns. But people, places and things, traveling, doing, doing, doing, all of these resources being used. And I felt like it was quite palpable when, say, the lockdown started years ago, this sort of sigh of relief that the Earth breathed to have humans shut up and sit down, you know, for a minute and have ecosystems begin to breathe again. And there are just so many lessons, you know, of course, that we can take personally and collectively from that experience of another global pandemic. And I hope that we cannot forget them and that we can let them inform how we move forward on that track.

Kousha Navadar (17:33)

Do you sample yourself from a previous song?

Ani DiFranco (17:37)

Oh, yes, that's true. Yeah. There's. In a part that was coming upcoming there, there's some hand drumming that BJ went and back to a 1998 recording of 32 Flavors, an old song of mine, and sampled the hand drumming from the outro of that song and flew it into this song. So that's why I credit my old Drummer from the 90s, Andy Stochansky, on the record because he is, in a manner of speaking, drumming on song.

Kousha Navadar (18:08)

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Is there anything deeper to that, or is it just that the drumming was really choice, or is that a question?

Ani DiFranco (18:16)

Sneaky bj. Yeah. BJ Burton, who just went mining on the Internet for, you know, usable samples from my catalog.

Kousha Navadar (18:27)

Yeah. It really is an album that has been in the process for a very long time.

Ani DiFranco (18:30)

Yeah.

Kousha Navadar (18:30)

Yeah. Let's hear one more track from the album if those. Maybe we're talking about politics in our society. There's this other song called the Knowing that's a lot more personal. Let's listen to it.

Ani DiFranco (18:48)

I have a name and my name has a story I have a look, a sound, a smell, a shame, a size I have a color to my hair, My skin, my eyes but this is not a love food.

Kousha Navadar (19:18)

Why did you think it was important to include a personal song on what's otherwise a pretty highly political album?

Ani DiFranco (19:23)

Oh, I mean, because it's all part of life, you know, And I think they're really interrelated, at least for me, all the time. But, yeah, that song the Knowing is the last tune on the record, and it actually sort of encapsulates what we were talking about a minute ago, where we just faded out. You know, this is not all of who I am. Underneath is something more beyond what's the lyrics. Everything that I know is the knowing. So it's a song that speaks to, you know, the essential nature of our consciousness and our being below the level of story and descriptions, adjectives.

Kousha Navadar (20:04)

Yeah. And what's interesting with that comment about story is that the Knowing was also the name of your picture book for kids that came out last March. And in terms of children's books, you've got a new one coming out called show up and Vote, right? Yeah. And you're writing this for kids who won't be able to vote for a while. Unpackage that for me a little bit.

Ani DiFranco (20:25)

Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I think as kids, what we learn is even more than what we're told is what we see. You know, what we see modeled by adults around us. It's how we learn what it means to be a grown up. And the aspect of being a grownup that is citizenship is kind of elusive in the world of a kid. It's not something you would necessarily understand. So I wanted to make a book where parents and children's grand children could engage about the idea of voting as being an essential ingredient to being grown in a society, in a democracy. It's the most essential ingredient to a democracy. So, I mean, on that tip, you know, I usually vote in person if I can, if I'm home, and I bring my kids with me. So they see it, you know, and it's part of their vocabulary of adulthood. And so this book, I hope, will not just teach kids that this is a thing, but excite them about it.

Kousha Navadar (21:39)

And, you know, you said at the beginning you are busy dizzy, and you certainly are busy dizzy, because there's one other part that I wanted to mention, which is a documentary about your life that's gonna premiere at Tribeca on June 10. It's called 1-800-On-Her Own. It explores your career and your life today, including at home with your family. And, of course, we have to talk about your Broadway debut. Since February, you've been playing on Broadway in the role of Persephone in Hadestown. And you were a part of this project from its very early days. Back in 2010, musician and playwright Ane Mitchell put the record out and you sang on it. Now that you're coming back into it, does it feel like you are just stepping back into the role or rediscovering it in any way?

Ani DiFranco (22:20)

It just feels completely new. I mean, yes, I was one of the first people that Anais brought the project to, and I was one of the first people to hear these brilliant songs and release them on my label. And then, of course, she went and pursued this project for a dozen years beyond that and grew it with all these amazing collaborators into the brilliant Broadway show that it is now. But stepping back in at this point, it's just a whole other bag of donuts. I mean, you know, wig, makeup, heels, dress for starters. Not my usual game. And yeah, being on Broadway, the eight show a week gauntlet. And I've just learned so much and felt so, so privileged to be amongst these brilliant performers, learning a whole new. I mean, I've been performing for 30 years, but as me, you know, playing my own songs in music world, rock and roll world and the Broadway world is a very different beast. So I'm really a beginner, you know, thinking about that.

Kousha Navadar (23:39)

And before we let you go, I'm looking at the clock. Is that sense of stepping into being a beginner again, elucidating any sense of boundary that you would like to push in your own career next, like, oh, this is an area where I would certainly like to, either from playing Persephone on stage or otherwise.

Ani DiFranco (23:57)

Well, since you asked, I actually have been commissioned to do a work of musical theater, which is one of the ingredients in why I said yes to coming and doing Hadestown for six months. Because I thought, you know. Yeah. I have been trying to push myself into new areas. Children's books or memoir or, you know, a musical theater piece. Okay, sure. It all sort of started with the pandemic, having my job stop suddenly, this touring and performing job, you know, So I started branching out, thinking about new ways of being an artist in the world. And so I thought, geez, I should show up for Hadestown, this brilliant, epically realized piece of musical theater, and learn what it is. How's it go? What does that mean? In order to hopefully apply it to something I'm working on, it's always a.

Kousha Navadar (24:58)

Sense of evolution and discovery. Well, we've been Talking with Ani DiFranco, the singer, the songwriter, the author, the producer can see her on stage, dance around in heels. Er, the unprecedented chisnall herself, Ani DiFranco, whose new album Unprecedented Chisnall is out. You can also check her out in her Broadway debut as Persephone in Hadestown. And you know, thank you, Ani, so much for being here.

Ani DiFranco (25:24)

Thanks so much for having me.

Kousha Navadar (25:27)

I'mma put you on, nephew. All right, unk.

Ani DiFranco (25:29)

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

Kousha Navadar (25:32)

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

Ani DiFranco (25:43)

A BetterHelp ad. Lewis Capaldi partnered with BetterHelp to get word out about how important therapy can be.

Lewis Capaldi (25:50)

I struggle most weeks to, like, get up, get myself up and ready and go to therapy or whatever. Like even like opening the laptop to talk to my therapist sometimes can be really difficult. But I do it because I realize how important it is for me to continue to feel good because I felt the best I felt in a long time through therapy.

Ani DiFranco (26:08)

Learn more about online therapy@betterhelp.com.