Art from the Martin Wong Graffiti Collection

Summary

All Of It: Episode Summary - "Art from the Martin Wong Graffiti Collection"

Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Sean Corcoran (Curator of Prints and Photographs at the Museum of the City of New York), Lee Quinones (Artist and Actor)
Release Date: January 6, 2025
Exhibition: Above Ground Art from the Martin Wong Graffiti Collection at the Museum of the City of New York, on display until August 10, 2025.

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Introduction to Martin Wong and His Legacy

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart delves into the vibrant world of graffiti art through the lens of Martin Wong's extensive collection. Martin Wong, a renowned painter from the 1970s and 80s, was instrumental in elevating graffiti from street corners to esteemed museum galleries. He founded the Museum of American Graffiti and was a passionate advocate for art as a healing and rehabilitative force. Notably, Wong made a significant gesture in 1994 by donating his entire 300-piece graffiti collection to the Museum of the City of New York upon his HIV diagnosis, solidifying his legacy in the art world.

The "Above Ground" Exhibition: Celebrating 30 Years

The centerpiece of the discussion centers around the Above Ground exhibition, which commemorates the 30th anniversary of Wong's donation. Sean Corcoran explains, "[...] it seemed like the perfect time and we initially explored the collection 10 years ago. So it felt like the next step was to talk about how art came off the streets and into the galleries" (02:12). This exhibition showcases the transformation of graffiti, highlighting its journey from illicit street expressions to recognized artworks in galleries and museums. Featuring iconic artists such as Lady Pink, Hayes, and Fab 5 Freddie, the exhibit traces the evolution of graffiti styles from the early bubble letters to the intricate wild styles that dominate today.

Personal Connections and Anecdotes

Lee Quinones shares his personal relationship with Martin Wong, providing a heartfelt perspective on Wong's influence. He reminisces, "He was one of the most generous, benevolent, very, and at the same time, rambunctious artists that I knew... I lived with him for a year as two artists that shared ideas and, you know, just future plans" (03:03). Lee emphasizes Wong's dedication to preserving and legitimizing the graffiti movement, stating, "Martin was very, very locked in into the black books... schematic blueprints to masterpieces" (04:04). This collaboration and mentorship highlight the deep connections within the graffiti community and Wong's role in nurturing emerging artists.

The Evolution of Graffiti Art

The conversation delves into the historical progression of graffiti art, beginning in the early 1970s. Alison Stewart outlines the collection's origins, noting pieces from as early as 1971 and 1972, including tags by Wicked Gary, who documented early writers who traveled the city with their unique signatures (05:16). Sean Corcoran adds that "95% of the show is new to the walls of the museum," underscoring the exhibition's freshness and relevance (06:00). The guests discuss the development of graffiti styles and techniques, emphasizing the blend of raw expression with deliberate artistic processes.

Listener Engagement and Perspectives

Throughout the episode, listeners contribute their insights and experiences with graffiti art through phone calls:

• Brian from Crown Heights (08:21) praises the evolution of graffiti crews, highlighting their impact on New York's cultural landscape.

• Jim from Harlem (09:41) shares a nostalgic account of interacting with fellow graffiti artists from his time at art school, reminiscing about collaborative expressions through chalk and colored pastels.

• Staff 161 (17:15) discusses the distinctions within the graffiti community, differentiating between "writers" and "graffiti artists," and reflects on the cultural shifts as graffiti transitioned into mainstream art venues.

• Sam from Ridgewood, Queens (23:27) recounts a tense experience at a group show where police intervention underscored the ongoing challenges graffiti artists faced in gaining legitimacy.

• Mia from Manhattan (24:29) emphasizes the inspirational role graffiti played during New York City's fiscal crisis in the 1970s, providing a burst of color and creativity amidst urban struggles.

• Alex from Brooklyn (28:27) applauds the recognition of graffiti as serious art and highlights the expansive reach of influential artists like Revs and Cost.

These diverse perspectives enrich the conversation, illustrating graffiti's multifaceted impact on both artists and the broader community.

Graffiti's Influence on Contemporary Art and Culture

Alison Stewart and Lee Quinones explore how graffiti has permeated modern culture. Stewart notes, "I think you can't be in an urban space without their presence being known... they're present in every aspect of our lives" (27:03). This ubiquity spans fashion, graphic design, and even album artwork, showcasing graffiti's enduring legacy.

Lee highlights the movement's role in democratizing art, particularly in amplifying women's voices within the graffiti scene. He states, "this movement in a great way has found a way to democratize, to bring so many women into the picture that have a lot to say as well" (27:33). This inclusivity marks a significant shift from earlier art movements that often marginalized women artists.

Spotlight on Lee Quinones' Artwork: "A Life Takes a Life"

A highlight of the episode is Lee Quinones' discussion of his piece, "A Life Takes a Life." He describes it as "a vivid window to the experiences that I grew up around... expressing that a life can be changed and go in the wrong directions and then decide to take another life" (21:07). Lee emphasizes the therapeutic aspect of art, viewing it as a means to purge and process personal and societal darkness. This narrative underscores the profound emotional and psychological dimensions inherent in graffiti art.

The Role of Institutions and Legitimacy

The episode examines how institutions began to recognize and validate graffiti as a legitimate art form. Alison Stewart suggests that European galleries were among the first to embrace graffiti, possibly due to a broader and more casual understanding of art's boundaries (15:01). In New York, alternative spaces like the New Museum and Fashion Moda played pivotal roles in providing platforms for graffiti artists, bridging the gap between street art and established art venues.

Graffiti as a Political and Social Statement

Lee Quinones asserts that graffiti is inherently a political act, shaped by the socio-political climate of its time. Reflecting on the 1970s, he connects the rise of graffiti to post-Vietnam societal shifts, economic struggles, and racial tensions, drawing parallels to contemporary issues (17:03). This perspective positions graffiti as not just aesthetic expression but also a form of social commentary and activism.

Conclusion: Celebrating Graffiti's Legacy and Future

As the conversation wraps up, Alison Stewart encourages listeners to visit the Above Ground exhibition to witness the rich history and evolution of graffiti firsthand. The guests collectively affirm graffiti's lasting influence on art and culture, emphasizing its role in shaping urban aesthetics and fostering creative expression across generations. Lee Quinones poignantly remarks on the movement's power to unify and inspire, ensuring that graffiti remains a dynamic and integral component of New York City's cultural tapestry.

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Exhibition Details:
Above Ground Art from the Martin Wong Graffiti Collection
Museum: Museum of the City of New York
Dates: Open through Sunday, August 10, 2025

Connect with WNYC's All Of It:
Join the conversation by calling 212-339-6221 or connecting via WNYC's social media platforms. Share your favorite graffiti artists, personal stories, and reflections on graffiti's impact on art and society.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Sean Corcoran]

In the 1970s and 80s, painter Martin Wong developed a reputation as a collector of New York City graffiti artists. He established the Museum of American Graffiti and he hand wrote a statement. It says we as an institution do not condone any illegal activities. We believe in the healing force of art and the rehabilitation. Rehabilitation through painting. When Wong was diagnosed with HIV in 1994, he decided to donate his entire 300 piece collection to the Museum of the City of New York. Wong sadly passed away in 1999. Now, a new exhibition featuring many of those large, bold and colorful works traces the evolution of graffiti artists from the trains in the streets to museums. Titled Above Ground, it's organized into several sections highlighting the origins of graffiti, its broader cultural impact and its post graffiti scene. You can see canvases from Lady Pink, Hayes, Fab 5 Freddie and some from our Several guests including Lee can join us. Above Ground art from Martin Wong's graffiti collection opened late last year, 30 years as the 30th anniversary of Wong's donation and the show's on display through Sunday, August 10th. So you have time to see it. You have Here to discuss with me is Sean Corcoran, the curator of Prints and Photographs at the Museum of the City of New York. It's nice to see you in person.

[Lee Quinones]

Great.

[Alison Stewart]

Nice to see you.

[Sean Corcoran]

And also joining us, Lee Quinones or just Lee, artist and actor whose work is featured in. Nice to meet you.

[Lee Quinones]

Thank you for having me.

[Sean Corcoran]

Listeners, we want to know some of your favorite graffiti artists. And to all the graffiti artists out there, what does graffiti mean to you? What do you think the future has to hold for street art in New York City? If you visited the Museum of the City of New York Above Ground exhibit, what pieces or stories about Martin Wong or the art that stood out to you? Give us a call. Our phone lines are open. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. You can join us on air or you can send us a text or you can hit us up on social media of it. Wnyc. So Sean, why didn't now feel like the right time to showcase some of these pieces from Martin Wong's collection?

[Alison Stewart]

As you mentioned, it's the 30th anniversary of the gift, so it seemed the perfect time and we initially explored the collection 10 years ago. So it felt like the next step was to talk about how art came off the streets and into the galleries.

[Sean Corcoran]

How did his donation influence the Museum of the City of New York's commitment to preserving graffiti art.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, the collection is really expansive, and it's paintings made on canvas that were intentionally made to show in gallery spaces. But there's also sketchbooks, which talk about kind of illuminate the creative process. And then there's also the photographs and the ephemera around the culture. And I think over the years, we've come to see the growing value of all those different aspects of the collection.

[Sean Corcoran]

Now, you knew Martin Wall.

[Lee Quinones]

Yes, I did.

[Unknown]

Good.

[Sean Corcoran]

Can you share any personal anecdotes about.

[Unknown]

Your interactions with Martin Wall?

[Lee Quinones]

Well, first and foremost, he was one of the most generous, benevolent, very, and at the same time, rambunctious artists that I knew. He came from a point of so much history. He had. He had so much love for just the expression of art, and he took this as a. The true expression of an American art movement and America's biggest, craziest city. Right. So I knew him very well. I lived with him for a year as two artists that shared ideas and, you know, just future plans. And I helped him also acquire some of the collection just through consulting, letting him know that this is a good piece right here. This is a very valuable piece. Yeah.

[Unknown]

What was unique about the collection?

[Lee Quinones]

Well, just like Sean said, it has all these different moving parts of a movement that's still, to a certain degree, controversial. So all these tools of the trade, the fact that these young individuals would grab these art tools that are available in art art supply stores, with the exception of the spray can, which is made for industrial use, that there was a process creating drawings and schematic, you know, sketches. That right there shows that there's a process to creating something that you're going to be very proud and loud about. So Martin was very, very locked in into the black books, which were very instrumental to keeping your drawings under, creating them, developing them, whether it was just to have them as a display and exchange and just sharing ideas, but also primarily to have them as, like I said, schematic blueprints to masterpieces that were done whether on the subways, on walls, on the exterior, or then canvases.

[Unknown]

Yeah. He's bringing up an interesting point that this collection seems to be really helpful.

[Sean Corcoran]

In understanding graffiti's evolution.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. The earliest pieces in the collection date back to 1971. 1972. Collections of tags gathered by a writer known as Wicked Gary. And he brought these little cards around with him as he traveled the city and had guy's tag on them. And those became a catalog of who were the early writers. And then he did collect some photographs of the early era writers. And then as you kind of progress through time, you can see different developments of style from, you know, bubble letters to wild style.

[Sean Corcoran]

I've heard there's pieces in this show. Well, I saw the show, but there are pieces in this show that people haven't seen before.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. In fact, I would say 95% of the show is new to the walls of the museum. And maybe one or two of them had been shown at Martin's gallery on Bond street in 1989, but they haven't really been seen since then.

[Sean Corcoran]

Tell me about Bond Street, Lee.

[Lee Quinones]

Wow. That was quite a venture. I thought Martin, you know, some of the most genius artists are the craziest. And he had this idea of, like, preserving this movement that he was very fond of, and he wanted to have sort of a place, a sanctuary for it, for people to do exactly what they're doing now with this existing show at the Museum of the City of New York is to go and actually give. Have that benefit of the doubt. Like, let's just study. Let's just study the inner workings of a movement by young people, not kids. I don't like saying kids. Young people that want to change not only their inner circles and their city, but ended changing the world. So he wanted to have a space that people can come and actually connect the dots and start to see these artists, these young people, as real, functioning artists that have ideas and they have aspirations and they're pushing the envelope forward. Then it's just not for argument's sake just to invade municipalities just for the fun of it. This was a municipality that was in dire straits in the early 70s, as we all know now. So it's not only genius and conceptually genius that what was happening on the subways at that time. It's the fact that so many young people took the other lane. They made that hole in the fence that was always fencing them in and said, we're going through that fence at our expense, and we're going to develop the world's greatest art movement.

[Unknown]

Let's take a call. This is Brian calling in from Crown Heights. Hey, Brian, thanks for calling, all of it. You are on the air.

[Brian]

Yeah, well, hey, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I just wanted to say I think it's a great New York culture, Just the street bombing, graffiti in general, Whether it's on the trains or the streets or anywhere, obviously making it to the art world. You know, different crews, starting with, like, the Ted, the Ebony Dukes from the Bronx, you know, starting the early 70s. All the way to one of my favorite crews, Smart Crew from Queens, which has basically been a Queen staple for the last 20 years. And they've, you know, crossed into different planes of it. But I've always had a great name and good reputation in the streets and, yeah, I guess for me, different styles. Everyone's first introduction is through wild style, you know, books like Subway Art, Martha Cooper and Henry Chavant's book. But then when you kind of go back in era into the early 70s, it's much more funner and childlike and, you know, very raw as well, a little cruder, but basically seeing the evolution, I guess what you guys were kind of saying earlier, just the evolution of style, whether it's the way they bubble their letters or just even, simply put, an arrow, and how that evolved over the years and generations in New York.

[Staff 161]

It's great.

[Unknown]

Thanks, Brian, for calling. Let's talk to Jim. Hey, Jim, thanks for calling in. You living in Harlan.

[Sean Corcoran]

What do you have to say?

[Jim]

Yo. Yes, Hi, Alison, it's Jim bae. Hi, everybody.

[Lee Quinones]

Hey.

[Jim]

Hey, what's up? What's up? I'm so excited when I heard this. Yeah, yeah, I heard this. And when I was, you know, went to school, art school, went to sva. Same school was Pete, Keith and I, we never. We missed each other. Within the year I went there, he graduated. And the thing is, I used to do stuff on the subway, inside the subway, like him on the black, you know, blank advertising signs. But he used chalk, you know, and. But I use colored pastel. And we used to communicate, like, with, you know, each other. He would draw something, or I. And I would draw. So he would draw a response to it and. So funny. And we never met, except one time I saw him in front of the New York Public Library doing a piece on the sidewalk. And I photographed him. You know, I was just passing by, but we never spoke, like, interacted. And wow, this is my favorite art outside of Salvador Dali. But, you know.

[Unknown]

Thank you for calling in, Jim.

[Lee Quinones]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

We are talking about exhibition at the Museum of the City of New York. It provides a window into the vibrant subculture of graffiti artists. It's called Above Ground Art from Martin Wong's Graffiti Collection Collection. It's on display through August 10, 2025. Joining me now are Sean Kokoron, the curator, and Lee Quinones and Artist in Studio. If you would like to join the conversation, we want to know who are some of your favorite artists? To all the graffiti artists out there, what does graffiti mean to you? Is it art? Is it self expression, something else. 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. Now, if you visited MCNY already and seen the exhibit, tell us what pieces or stories have meaning for you. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. So, Lee, for your artists, when you.

[Sean Corcoran]

Were artists, what did you seek to accomplish with your work?

[Lee Quinones]

First and foremost, self preservation, Creating self worth, Creating an atmosphere that I felt that I needed to be really entrenched in because I thought outside of myself, this form of art was bigger than myself and that there was this need and this urgency to showcase not just art per se, or even a name, but to tell a story. To tell the stories that people are uncomfortable telling, the truths that are uncomfortable for most people. So I was very, it was very important for me to move the, move the needle and the movement forward, maybe even possibly around the whole circumference because I just felt at one point there was a stagnation and I wanted to create something that would be against all odds by creating entire subway car murals and entire murals on handball courts outside, which is the time that I really felt I arrived as an artist because it was something, as a neighborhood prescription to me, these walls. And it was a very challenging time. And I just felt that what I was doing then, just because it's all right now doesn't mean that it was the wrong thing back then. Because the wrong thing was that there were all these things that were being thrown, all these theoretical limitations set upon a very young sect of people that were very creative, very, very much in tune with what was going on, not just in the city, but around the world. I'm a product of post Vietnam, wondering what that's about. The political structure at the time, the climate, the racial climate at the time, pretty much the way we are now. And I just, I felt that that was my storybook that I wanted to create. To me, graffiti was a state of mind. It wasn't a thing, it was a state of mind. And how to apply it and bring it to the masses, that's a whole other thing. That's when you say the mother of invention, you know, a necessity. Right.

[Unknown]

The beginning of the show, Sean, you highlight a group called UGA, United Graffiti Artists, which is formed by a 22 year old CUNY student named Hugo Martinez in 1972. What were his goals with starting this group?

[Alison Stewart]

He was seeing interesting writing around the city and he wanted to provide a larger platform. And that platform initially started within the walls of City University. But he very quickly got obtained opportunities for the group at places like Razor Galleries, which was a gallery in soho. Legitimacy he was offering, trying to give them some legitimacy. They collaborated with the Twyletharp studio for a production called Little Deuce Coupe, where they spray painted on stage while the dancers dance. So it was about opportunity, legitimacy, pushing creativity forward.

[Sean Corcoran]

What did museums and other art institutions begin to understand about the value of graffiti as an art form?

[Alison Stewart]

I think actually the Europeans happened to be first. You know, maybe they. Maybe. Maybe this is somewhat controversial, but maybe they had just a greater casual. More casual understanding of what art could be, and they were more accepting. Maybe it was because. Because they didn't have it in their face every day, too. That's a possibility. But European galleries and museums particularly were amongst the first to show the work. But then there were alternative spaces like the New Museum in New York in the early 1980s that were showing it, and other alternative spaces like Fashion Moda, the Fun Gallery. Fun Gallery, abc. No, Rio. Places like that would, you know, put the work on display.

[Sean Corcoran]

Was it importantly for the artists to promote themselves, or did that not matter.

[Lee Quinones]

Much in the art world sense? I think we were all trying to figure it out at that time. It was all so very new to us and to the art world. So I think the art world. I always like to joke that the art world was going through an intermission at that time, and they were trying to find a new platform to work with. And that platform consisted of these young people that were trying to figure out their own. Their own status. So it was all. It was a lot of moving parts, as I always like to say. And, yeah, at that point, you know, you come into cocktail society, the lights come on, and you're not in the tunnels anymore. So you have a responsibility to not only what you create, but how you behave and how you. How you trust the system. And it's a very complicated place, but art is very complicated. The act of art in itself is a political act in itself. So, yeah, there was a lot of figuring out to do.

[Unknown]

This text says, I saw it twice exhibition and was fortunate to be at the opening where most of the artists alive were present.

[Sean Corcoran]

Priceless.

[Unknown]

Let's talk to staff 161. Hey, staff 161, you're on the air.

[Staff 161]

Hey, how's everybody doing?

[Alison Stewart]

Well, great. Great to have you.

[Staff 161]

Okay.

[Lee Quinones]

What's up?

[Staff 161]

Okay. You know me, buddy.

[Lee Quinones]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[Staff 161]

Yeah. So very interesting, you know, you know that people, I mean, from my perspective, that people discuss graffiti. Right, right. Oh, graffiti art, really, in. In the context of galleries and museums and stuff or whatever, you know, exhibitions, you know, which I know I'm all for that type of thing, you know, and it's interesting coming from, like, the early, you know, birth of it and seeing how it manifested into this quote, unquote, art form, you know. Yeah. But, you know, in my time, you know, it was the whole. The whole motive role of a writer. Writer, right. Which is a term that people who tagged and, you know, wrote on walls without, you know, permission called themselves write it, you know.

[Alison Stewart]

Exactly.

[Staff 161]

Yeah. So. So I think that, you know, you got, like, a couple of divisions in. In the whole culture. One being writers, the other is being graffiti artists, you know, and, you know, et cetera. Like that. Yeah. And then you have street. Street art, too, you know, and I do tours and workshop, you know, with our studio I worked out of in Bushwick, and, you know, street art tours and workshops, you know, and it's interesting, you know, people how they kind of look at street art and graffiti at the same day.

[Sean Corcoran]

Yeah. You know what? I'm going to ask you to hold on for a second. Would you explain to folks who staff 161 is and what the difference between writing and.

[Alison Stewart]

Sure. Staff 161. I mean, he's one of the original school writers. He was there at the earliest days.

[Lee Quinones]

Yeah. He's one of the founding fathers that I acknowledged when I came on the scene and some of his old works were still running. And possibly one of the first painters that brought caricatures and an atmosphere to the trains like no one else has had. And I just pointed him out to my son the other night. I said, there's a staff 161 tag in Brooklyn here. And I was like, that staff. That guy goes way back. He's one of. You know, it's a living legend right there.

[Unknown]

Steph, thank you so much for calling in.

[Sean Corcoran]

We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it.

[Unknown]

I've always kind of looked at our story as something bigger.

[Lee Quinones]

On Radiolab, two strangers are matched for a bone marrow transplant. I just broke. I wept like a little baby and discovered that's about all they had in common.

[Sean Corcoran]

Maybe this guy's like a real piece of crap.

[Lee Quinones]

She's thinking, I just saved a Christian magician from Texas life.

[Sean Corcoran]

So I guess we'll talk about that later.

[Lee Quinones]

A match. Maiden marrow from Radiolab. Listen, where you get podcasts or on the WNYC app.

[Sean Corcoran]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests in studio are Sean Corcoran, he is a curator. Lee Quinones is an artist. We are talking about above ground art from the Martin Wong's graffiti collection. You can see it now at the Museum of the City of New York. Lee, we're going to talk about your piece A Life Takes a Life. Could you tell us the story behind it? People can go see it at the museum.

[Lee Quinones]

Well, that's sort of. In some ways it's a vivid window to the experiences that I grew up around having to deal with in the Lower east side in the early 70s. I grew up in a very loving home, but right outside our door was many bad options. And I just felt I needed to express that because I couldn't believe that I actually had seen that, heard that, felt that in so many ways. So I just felt that it's more than just painting about something of a witness mark or something. It's more about like bringing some kind of sentiment to the human condition. Like A Life Takes a Life. The title right there says it all. That a life can be changed and go in the wrong directions and then decide to take another life. So my titles and my paintings have always been very paramount to me. Like before I make paintings, I make titles. I write them on the walls of my studio. When they come to me very vividly or spontaneously and then by that title the painting becomes something and then vice versa too. I'll make a painting and I don't have a title and then I'll find something that's written in my studio wall. Say there it is. You connect the dots. So yeah, that's. It's a very dark piece. But I think that sometimes you can bring, when you're in the dark, you can actually bring light to your darkness. By expressing about that darkness. It's a way of reversing it, just being hovering over you and being heavy on your shoulders. And if you can express it, it's like a form of purging. And there hence is the movement. You're purging a feeling, a vibe, not necessarily ideas, but a vibe. And that to me is not an idea. Why would I want to paint about something like that? But it had to come out and there's many. Throughout the history of art there have been many paintings that are very dark by many different various artists from various movements. So whether it's personal or general public thing, it's something that just needs to be purged.

[Unknown]

Let's talk to Sam, who is calling in from Ridgewood, Queens. Hi, Sam. Thank you so much for calling all of it. You are on the air.

[Sam]

Hey, how you doing? I hung out with a lot of writers. Like, I think it was the 90s. But to speak to the confusion of the art world back then, I remember being at a group show. It was like in Chelsea when there were a lot of new galleries there. And it was like some of the guys from aok, like some big writers, and there was. There was wine. There was a lot of people in the room. I remember someone just leaned out the window to have a smoke and looked down, and two vans pulled up from the vandal squad, and everyone was like, oh, dip. And fortunately, everyone got away down the stairs and stuff. But it was so, like. We were like, wow, people are really looking at this work, and it's cool. But as far as New York City was concerned, you know, the nypd, you know, that was a crime. And they were. They thought they were going to round up everyone, I don't think. I think everyone got away, but that gallery emptied out.

[Alison Stewart]

Right. The work that they made on canvas may have been legitimate, but their history traveled with them.

[Unknown]

Let's talk to Mia. Calling in from Brooke from the Manhattan. Hi, Mary. Mia, thanks for calling in. You're on the air.

[Mia]

Yeah, hi, this is Mia in Manhattan. I just love the last story that was told, and I think it's important for people to realize what he said. It's really what was going on. But, you know. Well, anyway, he said it. I don't have to repeat it, but what I wanted to say. But I was, like, very young when graffiti was first arriving on the trains, and I absolutely loved it. I mean, in my opinion, I labeled it as art right away. I thought it was great. There was no doubt about it. And some people might have had differing opinions, but I just thought it was great and continue to love it all through the years. So I wanted to say thank you for all the artists who are living and those who are not. It was great. And there's one thing I don't think anyone brought up in the interview, which might be interesting to your viewers, particularly younger ones, which is at that time in the 70s, the city was really having some tough times. It was struggling. And so just to be able to ride the trains and see this explosion of color and this artistic output, I mean, it was so inspiring and kind of. It just gave you a good feeling in a way. I don't know. I can't explain it. It was great. It was a great time to See it and enjoy it. It was like art outside of a museum, you know, it was just wonderful.

[Unknown]

I was gonna ask the 70s and 80s, how did that play into it?

[Lee Quinones]

I mean, to her point. Thank you very much for that. Klaus Holdenberg said the trains coming into the station, dark stations at that, were like a banquet of flowers that just sprung out. And that's exactly. I mean, one of the most beautiful expressions about something. Where does art start? Where does art begin? And where does. Who owns the right to make that art and harness it? And that's a big question. So. And art comes from strange, the strangest places in the most obscure circumstances. And this was it. This was it. Like she said, the city was in dire straits. Fiscal crisis never before seen. And young people took the initiative on their own with tools of no trade, something from World War II, and expressed their. They created their own Personas and their own pyramids. And that's such an amazing feat that opened the doors that were always shut.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Lady Pink said in an interview, I feel we were an important part of the last quarter of the 20th century. What do you effect, Shawn, what effect do you think that graffiti artists have had on the nature of art form in 2025?

[Alison Stewart]

I think they're ever present in our popular culture today. I think you can't be in an urban space without their presence being known. And not just in urban spaces, but in the clothes we wear and the sneakers we wear. In every. In every aspect of our lives, they're present, those artists, whether they're graphic designers, fine artists, or album design, you know, designing album covers. They're everywhere.

[Lee Quinones]

And to. And to. If I may add, point, you know, thinking about Lady Pink and Eva and Barbara, 62 and little love before, you know, then, is that this movement in a great way has found a way to democratize, to bring so many women into the picture that have a lot to say as well. Very powerful paintings, some of them, that would burn us right off the map, as we say. And I'm really proud that they're part of the conversation now as a part, as opposed to many movements that have always shunned women away and their voices. So this is one powerful force, whether it's illegal or not, that's been able to bring people into the roundtable, as I like to say.

[Unknown]

Let's talk to Alex calling in from Brooklyn. Alex, you're on the air.

[Alex]

Hey, thanks so much. I just wanted to call in and say I really appreciate that you're having these people on and that graffiti is being taken seriously. And just wanted to shout out to the like late 80s, early 90s sort of wave of huge names. I guess they were tags that were everywhere. And I'm thinking of in particular revs and cost. I couldn't believe how big these guys made their letters and their tags. And it felt like all over the city and not so much any sort of art technique, but the scope and the geography that they covered. So thanks a lot. Really appreciate it.

[Unknown]

What do you see as the influence of graffiti in today's contemporary art world? What do you think?

[Lee Quinones]

Wow, you couldn't have graffiti without Dada. You couldn't have graffiti without the futurists. And those are controversial art movements, you know, and just the circumstances of the times, you know.

[Alison Stewart]

But I mean, in terms of working artists today, I mean, I think spray can and the line are at its core something the figurative, the line drawn with the spray can. Think of people like Christopher Wall, people like that who have really internalized the basics of graffiti writing. It doesn't look anything like graffiti writing, but there are definitely a lot of contemporary artists who are absorbing what has happened over the last 30 years.

[Lee Quinones]

Right. People like Cy Twombly. I mean, you can go list of people that over the years have in some way, it was always there. But you have to remember this young new crowd of painters were not referencing art history at all. Some of us did not know anything about art history. We were making art history and that's what's very unique about this movement.

[Unknown]

Got a great text I wrote in a couple weeks ago recommending this incredible exhibition. They are all kings and queens of the art form. Lee is bigger than Jefferson. Yes, an artist. He has a heart bigger than his chest. Dondi was my adopted older brother, as was the style master general as stated by Zephyr. Another king who is another of my adopted brothers. The name of the exhibition is Above Ground Art from the Martin Wong Graffiti Collection. It's on display through Sunday, August 10, 2025. My guests have been Sean Cochran, the curator, and Lee Quinones. More than just an artist. Nice talking to you.

[Alison Stewart]

Thanks for having us.

[Lee Quinones]

Thank you for having us.

[Sean Corcoran]

An exhibition at the Gordon Parks Foundation Gallery showcases the little known photography work of writer Ralph Ellison and his collaborations with the foundation's pioneering namesake. Coming up, we'll talk about it with the program director. That's next.

[Lee Quinones]

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