All Of It: Lisa Ko on 'Memory Piece' (Get Lit)

Podcast: All Of It – WNYC

Host: Koosha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)

Interviewer: Jordan Loft (Get Lit Producer)

Guest: Lisa Ko (Author)

Date: May 31, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode of All Of It features acclaimed author Lisa Ko, discussing her latest novel, Memory Piece, as part of the May "Get Lit with All Of It" Book Club event at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library. The conversation explores the novel's sweeping timeline from 1980s New York City to a speculative 2040, following the interconnected lives of three Asian American women as they navigate friendship, ambition, creativity, and a rapidly evolving city.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin and Structure of Memory Piece

• Friendship Across Decades (03:57):
  Lisa Ko wanted to explore the "long arc of friendship," showing how early bonds influence people across their lives, even if they drift apart or aren't regularly in touch.

  “There's still some sort of early bond or experience that ties you to one another and you end up influencing one another in ways you don't even realize.”
  — Lisa Ko (03:57)

• Ambition and Outsiderness (05:13):
  The characters—three Asian American women—share creative ambition, feelings of being misunderstood, and a longing for belonging.

  "[They're] all very invested and ambitious in doing their creative work, especially Asian American women...they have this experience of feeling misunderstood, wanting belonging, and feeling a little bit on the outside."
  — Lisa Ko (05:13)

• Character Development & Perspective (08:52):
  Ko plays with alternating perspectives, highlighting how the characters see themselves versus how their friends see them. The shifting points of view allow readers to understand misinterpretations within close relationships.

  “It's also kind of like all our worst fears, kind of like knowing what our friends and frenemies might be thinking of each other… As a dramatic device, it could be really useful.”
  — Lisa Ko (08:52)

New York City as Character

• Capturing the City’s Evolution (09:38):
  Ko reflects on her own late '90s NYC experience, using the city’s transformation—gentrification, political economy, and technological change—as a backdrop and microcosm for national issues.

  “So much of the book is about how New York has changed and might continue to change...the book also goes a little bit into the future as well, and it’s sort of using New York City as a microcosm of the larger political economy of the US.”
  — Lisa Ko (10:04)

Selling Out, Survival, and Artistic Compromise

• Artists and Real Life (11:03):
  The characters—like many artists—struggle between holding onto ideals and facing practical needs. Ko discusses the “time, work, money” conundrum.

  "You have the dilemma of needing time to do your art or your creative projects, but needing money to buy time, but needing time to work to get money. And so how does that equation work out?"
  — Lisa Ko (11:38)

• Performance Art as Protest (13:06):
  Giselle’s high-risk performance piece—secretly living in a mall—directly addresses this struggle and echoes influences from performance art history.

Technology, Community, and Belonging

• Jackie and the Internet (14:07):
  Jackie finds freedom and self-determination online—contrasting digital community with the later, profound belonging she discovers living communally in a squat.

  “When I look back on those early years of the Internet...there was such optimism…be whoever you want to be…for her, it gives all this possibility for her future.”
  — Lisa Ko (14:22)

• Analog vs Digital (15:33):
  The novel contrasts “analog world versus digital world”; community, collective living, and activism become as significant as virtual life for the characters.

Intergenerational Activism & Memory

• Activism Then and Now (17:19):
  Ellen’s journey highlights the tension between idealism of youth and experience of age, especially in activism. Ellen's interactions with younger activists force her to confront her own history and the fading of memory.

  “Memory functions in a way that…memory becomes a liability...we’re being ushered into having a sort of collective amnesia about the recent past or even the present…there’s such a power and a struggle to also remember and to not forget.”
  — Lisa Ko (18:08)

Writing Speculative Fiction

• Why 2040? (20:44):
  Ko’s speculative future, “2041,” emerged from her desire to reflect on her own anxieties about New York’s future, using the future as a mirror for the present.

  “2041, where Ellen’s section takes place, is actually not that far away. It seems a little sci fi. It seems like a future time. But...speculative fiction is not really about the future, but it's actually just in dialogue with the present.”
  — Lisa Ko (20:44)

• Crafting the Future (22:12):
  She balanced current trends—surveillance, gentrification, climate—with only slight exaggeration.

  "It just felt like taking what was going on now… and just dialing it up a little bit…”
  — Lisa Ko (22:12)

• Approach to Research (24:25):
  Ko notes the seductive nature of research, and the importance of balancing factual underpinning with not overwhelming the narrative with detail.

Inspirations & Influences

• Influence of Tehching Hsieh (26:04):
  The character Giselle and her endurance-performance roots were inspired by Taiwanese-American performance artist Tehching Hsieh, known for year-long performance pieces.

  “He tends to use that dilemma of time and labor and art and incorporating that into the art itself...that felt like a very intriguing place to work with some of the characters’ dilemmas about art making.”
  — Lisa Ko (26:07)

Music and Writing

• Playlists as Process (28:10):
  Ko creates playlists as part of her writing process, mapping the emotional structure of her novels through song choices.

  “I'm sort of creating a sort of like, you know, aesthetic collage for what I hope the novel will be.”
  — Lisa Ko (28:10)

  • Favorite pick for the next novel: "Here Comes Your Man" by the Pixies — "nostalgic and cheery and a little depressing." (29:02)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's also kind of like all our worst fears, kind of like knowing what our friends and frenemies might be thinking of each other, you know, and things that people never tell you." — Lisa Ko (08:52)
• "New York City as a microcosm of the larger political economy of the US." — Lisa Ko (10:04)
• "Memory becomes a liability…we’re being ushered into having a sort of collective amnesia about the recent past or even the present." — Lisa Ko (18:08)
• "Speculative fiction is not really about the future, but it’s actually just in dialogue with the present." — Lisa Ko quoting Samuel Delaney (20:44)
• "Try to figure out the right amount [of research], but not too much and how to sort of incorporate it and then dial it back." — Lisa Ko (25:51)
• "[Tehching Hsieh] tends to use that dilemma of time and labor and art and incorporating that into the art itself." — Lisa Ko on inspiration for Giselle (26:07)
• “Here Comes Your Man by the Pixies...nostalgic and cheery and a little depressing. So. Alright, that's my vibe.” — Lisa Ko (29:02)

Important Timestamps

• Introduction to Book & Characters: 02:07
• Writing Friendship Over Decades: 03:57
• Perspective in Narrative: 08:28
• NYC as Character: 09:38
• Art vs. Survival Dilemma: 11:03
• Giselle’s Performance Art: 13:06
• Early Internet Community: 14:07
• Communal Living and Belonging: 15:33
• Intergenerational Activism: 17:19
• Speculative Future & Crafting Dystopia: 20:44–23:10
• Research Process: 24:25
• Tehching Hsieh’s Influence: 26:07
• Writing Playlists & Next Book Hints: 28:10

Conclusion

Through Jordan Loft’s insightful questions, Lisa Ko shares a candid and thoughtful examination of her work, delving into friendship, creativity, activism, New York City’s shifting landscape, and the challenge of envisioning the future. Ko’s responses lend nuance not only to her process and inspirations, but also to the lived complexities embedded in Memory Piece, resulting in a rich, multi-layered conversation—both poignant and highly relevant for readers and writers navigating art and life in contemporary cities.

For anyone curious about Memory Piece or Lisa Ko’s broader reflections on friendship, urban change, artistic ambition, and speculative fiction, this conversation is essential listening.