← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Author Saratoga Schaefer Imagines a 'Serial Killer Support Group' in New Novel
00:21:04
A new novel about a woman who infiltrates a group for serial killers to avenge her sister's death.
Loading summary
Transcript57 lines
- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance
All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Listener supported WNYC Studios.
- [00:39]
Alison Stewart
You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. There is sisterly devotion, and then there's Sarah Griffin, the protagonist of the debut thriller by writer and poet Saratoga Schaeffer. In serial killer support group, Sarah's sister, little sister Mira, is brutally murdered, potentially by a serial killer. Saira, unhappy with the pace of the NYPD investigation, decides to take matters into her own hands. And no, she doesn't scour the Internet for leads or pour over the files or make a podcast. She decides to gain access into a group through the dark web where serial killers are rumored to meet. And she just doesn't want justice. She also wants revenge. Saratoga Schaeffer is the author of a book of poems. And their last name may sound a little familiar. It's because, full disclosure, they're part of the WNYC family. Their dad, John, is the host of New Sounds. Saratoga is with us today. Welcome to the show.
- [01:36]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Thank you for having me. It's exciting to be here.
- [01:39]
Alison Stewart
This book is sort of a dark take on true crime and amateur sluice stories, plus a look at familial relationships. Where did you get the idea?
- [01:48]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, so a couple years ago, I was reading something that talked about how there's no such thing as a support group for murderers. And that was a light bulb moment for me. And I started thinking about what if there was a support group specifically for serial killers? And the rest of the story kind of poured out of me from there. But it was a very inspiring moment of, oh, my gosh, this is really weird. And what can I do with this?
- [02:17]
Alison Stewart
What appealed to you about a character seeking to avenge a crime instead of just a traditional search for justice?
- [02:24]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Well, I guess for me, I was thinking of it as I wanted this person to be infiltrating this group of serial killers. And it became a question of what is big enough to have that kind of motivation for somebody. And for me, my first thought was if something happened to a loved one, that would be a motivator for a character to go to these lengths. And I think for a character to go to the lengths that Syra goes to, there would also have to be, you know, something more driving them than just I want the truth, it's I want revenge. Someone who joins a serial killer support group, even if they're doing it kind of like a spy, is usually maybe not someone who's just fine sitting by and letting the cops do their thing.
- [03:17]
Unknown
What appealed to you about writing about serial killers?
- [03:21]
Saratoga Schaeffer
I think I've always been sort of peripherally interested in serial killers. The psychology behind them is very fascinating. And I grew up watching things like Law and Order, SVU and Criminal Minds, and that was very early exposure to serial killers, albeit a kind of, you know, media centric version. So I knew I always kind of wanted that space and wanted to explore what that might look like. So it was something I had always been aware of. And then with this book, I did a lot more research, especially research into female serial killers, because Saira pretends to be one in order to infiltrate the group. So all of that together led to a really deeper understanding and exploration of these people who are sort of like the worst of the worst that we can think of in society.
- [04:14]
Unknown
All right, where did you do your research and what kind of research did you do?
- [04:19]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was just going through the Internet. I kind of did a couple different versions of research. One of them was more maybe informal, if you could say, like going to Reddit and other forums and seeing the true crime aspect. And that's sort of obsession that our society has with serial killers and true crime and things like that. And then there was, you know, going to bookstores and reading articles and just doing a deep dive on the types of serial killers and historical serial killers. So I kind of did a little bit of everything. I didn't want to totally immerse myself because I didn't want that to color the characters I wrote. I wanted them to be their own people. So I wasn't trying to like base them off of real life serial killers. So I. There was sort of like a boundary in place there. But that was. There was just a lot of different types of research going into this in order to make it feel as realistic as possible in a scenario where there is a serial killer support group.
- [05:26]
Unknown
I'm joined by author Sarah Toka Schaefer. We're speaking about their debut thriller, serial killer support group. Our protagonist, Saira, where is she? What's going on with her when we meet her in the novel?
- [05:38]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, so we meet her pretty soon after she finds out about the murder of her younger sister, Mira. So she's not in a great headspace. She's not Having a good time. And she's extremely motivated by the truth and more broadly, revenge. She wants to find out what happened, why it happened, and get her own version of Jeff justice from everything that has gone down. So she is very mission oriented and she is also very emotionally closed off because she needs to focus on finding the truth. So she's not very warm and fuzzy, but I think that is an advantage for her since she is diving into a very dangerous world.
- [06:29]
Unknown
Her name is spelled C Y R A and on the first page she gives you what for about how to pronounce it correctly. How did you decide on the name?
- [06:39]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, I, I decided on the name kind of randomly. I. My characters tend to come to me as fully formed people and then it's my job to try to rein them in. And sometimes I'll just browse like baby name sites and see if something sticks out to me. And Saira stuck out and I, in the process of choosing her name, I realized that there were two different pronunciations. So I decided immediately, right off the bat, Sarah was going to tell the reader how to pronounce her name because I knew there would be questions about that.
- [07:12]
Alison Stewart
We learned that Saira was always very protective of her sister Mira. She always had been since high school. How much of that protectiveness is about Mira and how much of it is about Saira?
- [07:24]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's a little of both. Saira has maybe not the best home life. Neither of her parents are super present. Her mother, in fact, left her and Mira when they were young. So part of that protectiveness is sort of just a nature versus nurture thing where she has to be that way. And part of it is maybe a little bit of control. Saira likes to be the one in charge. She likes to know what's going on at all times. So if she's the protector, that is, you know, something that she's always going to be aware of. So it's probably a little bit of, of a couple different things. Some of her family history, but also just inherently who she happens to be as a person.
- [08:12]
Alison Stewart
She gets information from a friend connecting her to the police files in this case and he tells her about chatter that cop suspect serial killers are meeting secretly. And this all start as a way for her to have an inside, an insider's way to get to the dark web to find out where this world of serial killers, this is all happening in the first like 40 pages of the book and where they might meet and how she might meet them first. Of all, why is that her first thought? Let me go meet this group of serial killers?
- [08:42]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Well, I think so. Initially, Saira isn't sure that it's an in person meeting, and she thinks it's going to be a virtual thing or something that is only existing on the Dark Web because she finds it very strange and unrealistic that they would meet in person. And when she realizes that that might be the case, she is so driven and she's sort of in too far now to back out. And besides that, she doesn't have much else to lose. A lot of her life was revolving around Mira. So without Mira, there's just this gaping hole in Saira's life. And instead of, you know, being healthy and filling it with therapy and things like that, Sarah's like, no, I'm gonna just go head first into this and figure out what happened and how I can get some kind of justice for it.
- [09:35]
Alison Stewart
What did you learn about the Dark Web in your research?
- [09:38]
Saratoga Schaeffer
I learned that I definitely couldn't use the Dark Web because it's very confusing to me. I am not a computer person. I'm not like a math and science person. So I did my research, but I was also like, yeah, I don't need to actually try this out. I'm good on this. That can just be a part of the Internet that I know exists, and that's as far as I go with it.
- [09:59]
Unknown
All right, I'm gonna ask you to.
- [10:00]
Alison Stewart
Read a little bit from the book.
- [10:02]
Unknown
Saira sort of has to gain entry into this group, and she's gotta pass a little bit of a test. I'll have a read on page 25. This is Saratoga Schaefer reading from their book Serial Killer Support Group.
- [10:17]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Saira took the end to Astoria Boulevard and walked the extra mile to a tiny abandoned parking lot not far from LaGuardia Airport. A chewed up chain link fence surrounded the lot, but there were gaps where the links had split apart, and Saira was able to slip through, stepping on overgrown weeds, pushing their way through the cracked pavement. This block was dark, the street lights dim or out altogether. It was quiet, empty, an industrial area that turned into a dead zone at night. The lot itself was swathed in shadows, backlit by the pinpricks of light from apartment buildings blocks away. As Cyrus slowly moved deeper into the lot, looking for the looming shape of the dumpster at the north end, her hands were shaky. She couldn't stop the sweat from pooling under her arms despite the chill in the air. But her nerves originated from anticipation. Rather than dreadful. Was she finally getting somewhere? She could barely see with the sunglasses still covering her eyes, but she didn't dare remove them. Nor did she chance using a flashlight. She didn't want anyone driving by catching a glimpse of her. She was squinting by the time she got to the dumpster, heart racing, fists tight. Taking a deep breath, she peered around the edge. At first she couldn't see anything, which was good. She had been steeling herself for a body. She didn't want to imagine what she would end up doing in that situation, what choice she might make, and how quickly she would make it. Crouching lower, Saira finally spotted it nestled deeper in the shadows. A duffel bag. She didn't dare touch it with her bare hands. Glancing once over her shoulder to make sure she was still alone in the lot, Zyra pulled on a pair of black rubber gloves from her backpack and gingerly drew the duffel bag towards her by the strap, out from the shadow of the dumpster. There was just enough light to allow Saira to unzip the bag, glancing inside.
- [12:11]
Unknown
You have to find out what she finds out inside. You play a lot with New York in this book. What was your favorite moment to describe?
- [12:20]
Saratoga Schaeffer
My favorite moment to describe was probably some of the scenes in Park Slope. That's where I grew up, so it's very close to my heart. The scenes in Queens were fun, too. I have family in Queens and I lived in Queens for a year. And in general, every location in this book and especially the overarching vibe of New York is sort of like my love letter and a little bit my hate letter too. I have a very complicated relationship with New York City, so I think some of that comes through throughout the text.
- [12:54]
Unknown
All right, give us a couple of complaints you have about New York City that show up in the book.
- [12:59]
Saratoga Schaeffer
I think I'm like Saira in that it can feel really overwhelming and overstimulating at all times. And Sarah kind of just wants to stay at home and watch Real Housewives and hang out. And I, especially after moving out of the city, completely relate to that instinct now, where it's like there's a lot of noise and there's a lot of people and there's a lot of smells and sometimes you just want to sit at home and watch crappy reality tv.
- [13:25]
Unknown
My guest is author Sarah Toga Schaeffer. We're speaking about their debut thriller, Serial Killer Support Groups. All right, she makes it into the group fairly early. What appealed to you about a support group for serial killers?
- [13:42]
Saratoga Schaeffer
I think the absurdity of it a little bit appealed to me because it's just such a weird concept. But I also loved the idea of it being a support group, not for these people to get help or to stop killing, but as it being like a safe space where they can just chit chat and share tips.
- [14:04]
Unknown
Chit chat?
- [14:06]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, you know, have a little chit chat. Have it be like this very bizarre mimicry of an AA meeting where nobody's actually trying to heal or get better. It's just morbid.
- [14:19]
Unknown
There are a handful of killers in this group who go by the names. Okay, Lamprey, whipworm, pea, crab. Will you explain what makes all of those terms go together? Whipworm, pea, crab, lamprey.
- [14:34]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yes, and there's a few more too, but they're all named after parasites. So that's their little code names within the group to protect their identities from each other and to not make sure that they're not sharing too much because outside contact is not allowed within the support group. So they all have a different nickname that is based off of a parasite.
- [14:58]
Unknown
It's sort of a little bit of a sense of humor to it, in a way. How did you want to use humor in this book?
- [15:05]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, I didn't want to go full camp and have it be like a dark comedy, but there's definitely some tongue in cheek moments, some black humor, some little witty asides. I think Saira herself is a pretty dry person. I wouldn't. She wouldn't say that she's funny, but she has a lot of interesting reactions to some of the killers and some of the situations she gets herself into. So I wanted to use that version of humor too. While we are, you know, diving into some pretty deep, dark, intense themes to still keep it a little bit of that tongue in cheek, sardonic kind of vibe.
- [15:48]
Unknown
What name did they give give her?
- [15:51]
Saratoga Schaeffer
So they give her the name Mistletoe.
- [15:55]
Unknown
Did you know Mistletoe was a parasite before starting this book?
- [15:58]
Saratoga Schaeffer
I did not. And it actually worked out perfectly because I was looking for a name that had a little bit more of a feminine connotation because I figured that these men, because everyone else in the sport group besides Sarah is a man, would want to try to infantilize her and give her a nickname that is not as maybe creepy or dark as the ones that they have, because that's something we see reflected in our actual society and is one of the big differences between male serial killers and female serial killers.
- [16:32]
Alison Stewart
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Female serial killers, you research them in the book, you know, most people think men are serial killers. So one what did you learn about female serial killers and what did you under come to understand why it's a male dominated crime?
- [16:49]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, so some of this is actually in the book because I just found it so interesting that since CSIRO is also doing the same research I was doing, I thought it made sense to include that. So some of that is in there. But one of the most interesting things I found was that some psychologists think that the difference between male serial killers and female serial killers are that males tend to do it for fun or because they can, and that females tend to do it for hunter or gatherer purposes. So they're doing it either for survival or they're doing it because they need resources. But that doesn't always track with some of the female serial killers we've seen throughout history who do seem to kill simply because they like it, just like the men do. So I think that's something that's really fascinating to consider. And then the nickname thing is something huge that I love talking about because I think it's really interesting where, you know, male serial killers, they get names like BTK and Son of Sam and really scary, you know, upsetting names. And then you get female serial killers who get nicknames like Granny Ball Lecter, which are very punny and supposed to be kind of trite. And sometimes they'll be really sexy names too. So there is a sort of an inherent sexism in the serial killing industry, which is so weird that like, sexism is so prominent that it even affects serial killers. But I think it's a really interesting aspect to our society and part of that definitely comes through in the book.
- [18:31]
Unknown
All right, so we don't want to know if Saira is going to become an avenger for her sister or she'll survive the group. You have to read the book to find out that.
- [18:40]
Alison Stewart
But I did want to ask you.
- [18:41]
Unknown
A couple of questions before we wrap about your writing. I was curious, what did you learn about yourself after writing and working on this book?
- [18:51]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, so many things I think I learned that I definitely am drawn to higher concept topics that involve a lot of maybe the darker side of humanity, because it's something that I think is worth exploring. And I also learned a lot about my own resilience. I mean, this particular book I wrote during a very tumultuous period of my life. And it was kind of an escape, which is funny because it's like not. It's not a very pleasant story. So that being an escape is a little bit indicative of maybe my personality, but it was a really meaningful book to write in that time of life, and having that be my debut was just amazing. So that whole process and getting to where I am now, I think has been really a huge learning experience.
- [19:53]
Unknown
I bet people are listening who think they have a book in them. What wisdom would you give to someone who's working on a book, has dreams of having a book published?
- [20:06]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yeah, I mean, I would say I'm not gonna be one of those people who says, write every day because honestly, that's not always accessible for people. And I don't write every day. But I would say keep writing, for sure. And I would also say try not to get super stuck on one idea or one story, because if you have one story and if you have one book, you will have others. So don't hang your hat on one thing in particular, but have fun with it. Explore. Explore your different ideas. Explore different writing styles. Read a lot. Read everything you can get your hands on, especially the things in your genre, and just keep going because it's a tough industry sometimes and there can be a lot of rejection. But if you have that desire and you love writing, it's completely worth it. So find your path, figure out what works for you, and just keep going.
- [20:59]
Unknown
Last month you sold another novel that's coming out next year. Can you give me the logline?
- [21:04]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Yes. So it's called Traditional Wife and it is about a trad wife influencer who has a demon baby. It's my first horror and it's very unhinged and I'm super excited.
- [21:17]
Unknown
You had me Ed Tread. Wife had a demon baby. So great. My guest has been Saratoga Schaeffer. We were talking about their debut thriller, serial killer Support group. Thanks, Saratoga, for being with us.
- [21:32]
Saratoga Schaeffer
Thank you so much for having me. So good, so good, so good.
- [21:37]
Alison Stewart
Easter deals starting at just $25 are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. And that means tons of fresh reasons to rack.
- [21:46]
Saratoga Schaeffer
They've got the best gifts because I always find something amazing.
- [21:50]
Alison Stewart
Save on Easter finds from Kate Spade New York, Calvin Klein, Mac cosmetics and more. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.
- [22:02]
Ira Flatow
I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.