Banjo Players Steve Martin and Alison Brown Perform and Talk Fingerstyle

Summary

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All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode Summary: Banjo Players Steve Martin and Alison Brown Perform and Talk Fingerstyle

Air Date: July 22, 2026
Guests: Steve Martin, Alison Brown

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the art and spirit of banjo playing with Grammy Award-winning musicians Steve Martin and Alison Brown. The pair discuss their collaboration on the album Safe, Sensible and Sane, touch on their personal musical journeys, perform live in-studio, and break down technical and creative distinctions between banjo playing styles. The episode celebrates banjo music’s traditions and cultural evolution, blending humor, insight, and musical mastery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Collaboration and the New Album

• Background of the Partnership:
  • Alison Stewart welcomes Steve Martin and Alison Brown, highlighting their album’s nomination for multiple International Bluegrass Music Association awards and its roster of special guests. [00:37]
• Creative Process & Album Arc:
  • Alison Brown: The collaboration started as writing music “one at a time” without an initial album plan but evolved, revealing an arc from “banjo conversation” to broader musical influences like bossa nova and calypso. [03:25–03:53]
    • “We were just writing music together...just the two banjos talking to each other...then builds up...to bossa nova feel or Caribbean feeling.” — Alison Brown [03:35]

2. Fingerstyle vs. Clawhammer Banjo Technique

• Technical Demonstration:
  • Steve Martin: Breaks down the difference between Brown’s three-finger style (using metal picks, plucking upwards) and his own clawhammer style (striking down with the back of the finger). [02:10–02:46]
    • “She’s playing with picks on her fingers and plucking upward and I’m playing clawhammer with the back of my finger and striking down.” — Steve Martin [02:42]

3. Reimagining Tradition: “New Cluck Old Hen”

• Song Arrangement and Lyrics:
  • “New Cluck Old Hen” is a re-imagined Appalachian tune:
    • Steve Martin: Updated lyrics to avoid what he describes as “19th-century kind of nonsense song” themes and to address outdated, even misogynist elements with help from the band Della Mae. [03:59–04:44]
      • “I thought, gee, I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a lyric that, to me, was a little silly...so we fixed that.” — Steve Martin [04:30]
  • Performance Excerpt: Martin and Brown perform part of “New Cluck Old Hen.” [04:55–06:06]

4. The Art of Writing for Banjo vs. Comedy

• Songwriting Challenges:
  • Steve Martin: Compares writing lyrics for music to writing for TV or himself, emphasizing the learning curve in overlaying lyrics atop melodies. Credits bluegrass legend Earl Scruggs for a transformative insight. [06:26–07:18]
    • “I could write a song for the banjo, but I couldn’t figure out how to overlay lyrics...so I asked Earl Scruggs...he said, ‘I just play the melody,’ and I go, oh!” — Steve Martin [06:48]
    • “Musical lyrics are more forgiving...you can get away with murder.” — Steve Martin [07:13]

5. Musical Demonstrations: Double Banjo Tunes

• Live In-Studio Performance:
  • Alison Brown and Steve Martin perform a double-banjo tune, “Let’s Get Out of Here,” exemplifying the interplay between their different styles and musical voices. [07:24–08:59]
    • “I really love the way the two banjos sing together.” — Alison Brown [07:28]

6. Personal Journeys: Life and the Banjo

• Alison Brown:
  • Traces her pathway from childhood player to Harvard and UCLA MBA, to investment banker, and finally to professional musician and Compass Records co-founder.
    • “I realized that I just didn’t have as much of an affinity for tax exempt debt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs.” — Alison Brown [09:32]
    • Notes the company’s 30th anniversary supporting roots music. [09:59]
• Steve Martin:
  • Shares how he started at 16, confusing the four-string banjo for a five-string, and his early comedy career incorporating banjo, poetry, magic, and juggling into his sets. [10:25–11:19]
    • “As a young comedian...I threw everything I had at it. I could play the banjo, recited poetry, did a magic act, I juggled...to get up to the 20 minute requirement.” — Steve Martin [11:20]
    • Humorous note: "If it was a bad night...my 20 minutes would shrink to 12." [11:46]

7. Banjo Collector’s Tales

• Musicians and Their Instruments:
  • Both artists admit to owning 15+ banjos. Brown’s favorite is one made in Prague, crafted by a luthier who smuggled the Earl Scruggs book during the Soviet occupation—a story highlighting the instrument’s global reach and resilience. [12:02–12:23]
    • “He had to smuggle the Earl Scruggs book in text only [and] figure out how to make his own banjo.” — Alison Brown [12:12]
  • Steve Martin’s strategy: "I’d get a banjo and put one in every room...so no matter where I went, I didn’t have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn.” [12:48]

8. The Album Title: Safe, Sensible and Sane

• Origin of the Name:
  • Inspiration came from a 1930s letter writing manual, with Martin collecting odd phrases and using them as lyrics. The title track—featuring Jason Mraz—sets “nonsense” lyrics to a calypso beat, which, says Martin, became more meaningful the more they were sung. [13:12–14:33]
    • “Safe, Sensible and Sane was one. Anyway, there was a whole list and I thought they sounded like music lyrics.” — Steve Martin [14:04]
    • “The truth is they’re nonsense, but Jason Mraz, we all agree, the more we sing them, the more sense they make.” — Steve Martin [14:28]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Banjo Playing:

  • “It’s so much fun to play with Alison.” — Steve Martin [09:06]
  • “We’re locked together there.” — Steve Martin [09:09]

• On Artistic Journey:

  • “It was a stint as an investment banker that really made me appreciate how much I loved the banjo.” — Alison Brown [09:29]

• On Tradition and Change:

  • “I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a lyric that...was, you know, kind of fun, but little silly...so we fixed that.” — Steve Martin [04:31]

• On Banjo Collections:

  • “You gotta have one wherever you go.” — Steve Martin [12:39]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and Guest Setup: [00:37–01:40]
• Banjo Styles Explained/Demo: [01:40–02:46]
• Mutual Admiration & Album Arc: [02:46–03:53]
• “New Cluck Old Hen” Backstory & Performance: [03:53–06:06]
• Writing Lyrics for Banjo Music: [06:26–07:18]
• Live “Let’s Get Out of Here” Performance: [07:24–08:59]
• Banjo Life Stories and Collecting: [09:11–12:48]
• Album Title Origin/Discussion: [13:12–14:33]

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

Joyful, collegial, and deeply appreciative of tradition and craft, the episode offers both banjo aficionados and “civilians” insights into the instrument’s mechanics, evolving repertoire, and deep personal resonance for its masters. Martin and Brown’s camaraderie is evident, and their humor and humility make the technical explanations accessible and entertaining. The banjo is revealed as a vessel of both tradition and innovation, worthy of close listening and cultural appreciation.

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Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Coming up this hour, New York magazine cartoonist Harry Bliss talks about his graphic memoir, you Can Never Die. And artist Carol Bevey discusses her ongoing exhibition at the Guggenheim. Now let's get things started with some music from from Steve Martin and Alison Brown. Grammy Award winning musicians Alison Brown and Steve Martin brought their banjos into the WNYC Studios last fall for a rollicking finger picking time. The duo released the album safe, Sensible and Sane, which was recently nominated by the International Bluegrass Music association for several awards including Song of the Year. It features vocalists like Vince Gill, Jason Mraz, and Indigo Girls. And sometimes Allison and Steve just play like they did in our studio right across the desk from me. Here's our conversation.

[Alison Brown]

Well, my favorite story about this tune is just how inspired I was by Steve's claw hammer style of banjo playing, which is a more traditional style than the three finger style I play that involves metal picks. His style involves brushing the strings of the nails of his right hand. And I hadn't thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve. And he played me a beautiful three, four time melody that he'd written for clawhammer banjo. So that was what inspired me to think about what we could do with that idea.

[Alison Stewart]

Explain to civilians what a claw hammer banjo is.

[Steve Martin]

Well, it's a style. Why don't you play a quick three finger lick?

[Alison Brown]

Yeah.

[Steve Martin]

And this is a claw hammer sound. That's it. But the difference is and not the audience doesn't really need to know this, but she's playing with picks on her fingers and plucking upward and I'm playing climb with the back of my finger and striking down.

[Alison Stewart]

Alison just explained what she admired about your playing. What did you admire about her playing?

[Steve Martin]

Well, Alison is one of the great banjo players. She's won Banjo Player of the Year from the international bluegrass music association, which is not easy to win. And she also plays in multiple styles. I mean, we have songs on her record that are bossa nova, that are calypso, that are irish, that are american bluegrass. So she's really the leader in those different styles.

[Alison Stewart]

The album is called safe, sensible, and sane. Alison, is there an arc to the album, or is this just songs that you liked?

[Alison Brown]

Well, you know, we wrote these songs kind of one at a time Without a specific theme or a specific agenda. Actually, we didn't really even think we were writing an album. We were just writing music together. But I do think there's an arc. I mean, the record starts off with just the two banjos talking to each other, Just a little banjo conversation, and then builds up to, like, Steve was saying, like, some different directions that I don't think we really intended when we started off the bossa nova feel or caribbean feeling. And then at the end, we take it back to just the banches.

[Alison Stewart]

There's a song on it called new cluck old hen. It's a reimagination of an appalachian tune, I believe.

[Steve Martin]

Yes. The song sorry, I have this little morning cough. The song is about 150 years old. I research it a bit, and it's always been one of my favorite melodies to play on the banjo. And I looked up the lyrics, and I was aware of the lyrics, and they struck me as, you know, like a 19th century kind of nonsense song. And I thought, gee, I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a lyric that, to me was, you know, kind of fun, but little silly as about a chicken that can lay either eight eggs or 10 eggs. And so I reimagined it, as we say today, and came up with new lyrics. And then we realized the song was a little bit misogynist, so we fixed

[Alison Stewart]

that with della may.

[Steve Martin]

This band gave a nice comeback at the end.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, let's listen to new cluck ult old hen from safe, sensible and sane.

[Steve Martin]

She took my dream she took my hope she got my house in row a note she sold my car, she got my friends All I have for dinner is a taco old hen

[Amica Insurance Announcer]

that's

[Alison Brown]

right,

[Unidentified Speaker (possibly Alison Brown or Steve Martin during music)]

You called me up. Can I come back? You got your bags already packed? I said, honey, you made your choice. She's your win and I'm your loss. The kids are happy with their new dad, Unlike you. He's a high school grad. We're as happy as a whippoorwill. You can color it at the red cat crib Cluck Old hen, cluck old hen Cluck, cluck, cluck like a cluck old hen Cluck old hen Cluck old hen

[Alison Stewart]

that's new. Cluck old hen. From the album Safe, Sensible and Sane. My guests are Steve Martin, Alison Brown, and they're banjos. Steve, when you're writing for music, you've written for tv, you've written for yourself. How is it different? And you're writing music?

[Steve Martin]

Oh, well, I had to figure out how to write lyrics. I couldn't. I mean, yes, I did write the lyrics to King Tut, but I really had to think about it. And I was talking to Earl Scruggs one day, and I could figure out I could write a song for the banjo, but I couldn't figure out how to overlay lyrics. And so I asked Earl Scruggs, I said, what. What do you play when you play backup? And he said, well, I just play the melody. And I go, oh, so I can write a song and then write lyrics to the. My melody? Right, okay. It sounds like a simple thing, but it took me a while. You know, I think musical lyrics are more forgiving. You know, you might not put it in prose, but you can get away with murder.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, you've brought your banjos with you. What are you gonna play for us today?

[Alison Brown]

Well, we'll play a little bit of a double banjo tune that's on the record, actually. But, you know, the essence of it. I really love the way the two banjos sing together. It's a tune that Steve came up with the title for. It's called let's get out of Here.

[Amica Insurance Announcer]

One.

[Unidentified Speaker (possibly Alison Brown or Steve Martin during music)]

Yay.

[Alison Stewart]

Wait a second. I'm doing videos here.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

One Band.

[Alison Stewart]

Band. That was Steve Martin.

[Steve Martin]

It is so much fun to play with Allison.

[Amica Insurance Announcer]

This really is.

[Alison Brown]

We got a lot of Steve. So fun.

[Steve Martin]

We're locked together there.

[Alison Stewart]

Alison, you started playing banjo when you were a kid. You went to college, you went to Harvard, you got your MBA from ucla. When did it become clear to you, you know what? This is going to become my life's work, playing banjo?

[Alison Brown]

Yes. Well, you know, I'm still thinking about it, really. It's kind of an interesting profession. I don't know. I've always really, really loved the banjo. And I think it was a stint as an investment banker that really made me appreciate how much I loved the banjo. When I realized that I just didn't have as much of an affinity for tax exempt debt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs, so. But it was really a series of baby steps, and I Get a chance through, you know, Compass Records, which is the label I co founded with Gary west, my husband, 30 years ago this year.

[Steve Martin]

Wow.

[Alison Brown]

And yeah, it's hard to believe. So we get a chance to like, do the business side of things and support roots music that way and then play music too. So it's really the best of both worlds.

[Alison Stewart]

What was the moment when you were an investment banker and you thought, I'm not going to do this anymore?

[Alison Brown]

Oh, gosh, it was probably one of those all nighters with a, you know, proposal for a bond refunding somewhere.

[Steve Martin]

Sounds fascinating.

[Alison Stewart]

Steve, when did you pick up the banjo? The very, very first time?

[Steve Martin]

Well, I picked it up when I was about 16 and I made a mistake because I heard the banjo with the Kingston Trio and bluegrass music and I didn't realize there were two types of banjo. There's a four string banjo and a five string banjo. And so my girlfriend at the time, you know, I'm 16 and her father had a four string banjo. So I'm trying to play bluegrass on a four string, which is impossible. And although Irish people can do

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

so.

[Steve Martin]

Then I, in my class was John McEwen who became a member of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band and was a banjo player already. And they said, well, there's a guy who plays. So I went and that's when I got straight. You know, I got a five string banjo and I paid $200, I still have it. And that's when I started playing.

[Alison Stewart]

And at first you incorporated in your comedy act a little bit?

[Steve Martin]

Well, yeah, because I'm, you know, as a young comedian, the thing that's the hardest to acquire is material. So I threw everything I had at it. I could play the banjo, I recited poetry, I did a magic act, I juggled. I did everything to get it up to the 20 minute requirement. And if it was a bad night, if the audience wasn't with me, my 20 minutes would shrink to 12.

[Alison Stewart]

How many banjos do you have, Alison?

[Alison Brown]

Well, I think that I only have about, you know, 15, but I'm told that I have quite a few more.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you have a favorite? A favorite one?

[Alison Brown]

Well, the one I'm playing right now is one of my favorite ones. It was made in the Czech Republic in.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, it's beautiful. In Prague.

[Alison Brown]

Yep. By a builder who was so committed to learning how to play the banjo during. During the Soviet occupation that he had to smuggle the Earl Scruggs book in text, only figure out how to make his own banjo and how to plate his own Picks and it's really a great instrument. It has a great sound.

[Alison Stewart]

That's so beautiful. Just the way it looks is gorgeous.

[Steve Martin]

Banjos lend themselves to decoration. There's a lot of inlay on the neck and you can see I have another one. This is silver, but the other one's gold. Can be very fancy.

[Alison Stewart]

How many do you have?

[Steve Martin]

Well, I have about the same. I mean, you know, you gotta have one wherever you go.

[Alison Stewart]

So it's gotta be a banjo wherever you go.

[Steve Martin]

I mean, when I first started learning to play, I'd get a banjo and put one in every room. So no matter where I went, I didn't have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn.

[Alison Brown]

Perfect.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are Grammy Award winning musicians Steve Martin and Alison Brown. Were discussing their new album, Safe, Sensible and Sane. Where does the title come from?

[Steve Martin]

Well, it's a confession that one of our songs is called Safe, Sensible Insane. It's sung by Jason Mraz and it has a calypso kind of beat to it.

[Alison Brown]

Yeah, definitely Caribbean vibe.

[Steve Martin]

But what happened was I was, you know, I'm a writer, so I have a lot of thesauruses and different books and kind of collect, you know, word books. And I had a book that was written in the 1930s on how to improve your letter writing. And there was one section that listed these phrases that were like, we should look them up. There's like one of things you can put in your letter, like thank you for the frank statement of your affairs. These are supposed to elevate your letter writing. And Safe, Sensible and Sane was one.

[Alison Brown]

Yeah.

[Steve Martin]

Anyway, there was a whole list and I thought they sounded like music lyrics, so I copied them out, wrote them down, and then one day I just. And I said, Alison, these sound to me like music lyrics. And she arranged them so they could kind of rhyme and then she set them to this, their, you know, calypso sound. And the truth is they're nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make.

[Alison Stewart]

Honestly. Yeah. Even saying it out loud. Would you play us out a little bit?

[Steve Martin]

Sure. The swing song.

[Alison Brown]

Swing song, yeah.

[Steve Martin]

1, 2, 3, 4.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with Steve Martin and Alison Brown. Their album is titled Safe, Sensible and Sane. Up next, another collaborator of Steve Martin's, cartoonist Harry Bliss, discusses his graphic memoir, you Can Never Die. This is all of it.

[Steve Martin]

Can you grab one more thing? I'll come back up for you.

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