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- [00:00]
A
Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@mycare.org.
- [00:41]
B
This is all of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Most people know Kat Greenleaf as the affable, funny, incisive and irreverent creator and host of Talk Stoop. I would say she's one of the original interviewers who had substance and style. Now people have come to know her as the host of the podcast Soberness, a project that was launched in the fall of 2024. The podcast is about what it's like to live a life of sobriety, something Kat has done for about a decade now. The podcast has struck a nerve. Not many podcasts can both boast five star reviews, but her honesty with subjects and their responses are illuminating. Her guests have included Marky Ramone, Tim Daly, Molly Jong Fast, Margaret Cho, and Hank Azaria. She talks about their choices, their lives, and it's fascinating for those seeking sobriety or even those who aren't. And with the holidays upon us, there will be alcohol everywhere you turn. So we thought we'd invite Kat for an interview to hear her thoughts on sobriety, both personally and professionally. Welcome to the studio, Kat.
- [01:44]
A
Thank you so much for having me. It is great to see you.
- [01:47]
B
It is good to see you as well. People know you are a great interviewer. You've been doing it for a long time.
- [01:55]
A
I'd say the same about you.
- [01:56]
B
Well, thank you very much. You had a little problem with alcohol.
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A
Yeah, it wasn't little.
- [02:01]
B
Wasn't little. Well, first of all, what led you to drink?
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A
It's a great question. And we would have to stay on the air for many more hours.
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B
Basically.
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A
I knew I was an alcoholic from the time I heard about alcohol as a child. I thought that sounds like a magic carpet to get you the heck out of your life. And that sounded great. You know, even as a little guy, I felt very deeply and life felt very big and hard to navigate. And alcohol was the answer. Until it wasn't.
- [02:34]
B
What did you do in your hours when you weren't under the influence of alcohol? What was that time like?
- [02:41]
A
You mean my in real life? In real life, yeah. Oh, gosh. Well, you know, after school and friends and hanging out, I then got married and launched a huge career and have two awesome kids. And I've had a pretty big life. I have a pretty big life. But alcohol was the dark spot in it that would continue to drag me down. No matter how many accomplishments, no matter how many country houses, no matter how many kids and dogs, alcohol made everything bad and yet didn't want to give it up.
- [03:13]
B
Was there a definitive episode that led to your sobriety?
- [03:16]
A
Well, there was the last day I knew, you know? You know, right? You feel it in your bones when change is on the way. Change was on the way. It was September. I was spent the day with my youngest son, Truman, who's actually in the waiting room right now. And I just thought, I want to be present for this guy. I don't want him to see me drunk. I don't want anyone to see me drunk, but I don't want him to see me drunk. And my older kid was probably about 5 at the time, and I just wanted them to have a present.
- [03:42]
B
Momma, was it hard? What was. What was a hard road for you to go down in your sobriety? Was it the first week? Was it the holidays? Was it dealing with people you didn't want to deal with?
- [03:54]
A
Yes. Yes. Family. Seeing my family was challenging at different stages. Now I have a great relationship with my family, but at times I felt like alcohol was a good lubricant there. The holidays, yes. The first few holidays were impossible. I didn't like it at all. But now I have lots of tips and tricks to help me through not only the holidays, but any rough time.
- [04:17]
B
Listeners, we want to hear from you. Why did you decide to become sober? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC, what has changed for you the most? What advice would you have for someone trying to get through the holiday season? Who wants to stay sober? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You can call in and join Kat and I on the air, or you can text to us at that number as well. My guest is Kat Greenlee. She's the host of the SO Podcast. What was the biggest question you had for yourself once you sort of mastered sobriety?
- [04:57]
A
Well, I was concerned that I wouldn't be funny anymore. That was my big fear. I was afraid I wouldn't be funny. I was afraid I wouldn't have friends. I was afraid I would no longer be the life of the party. I can't attest to my own level of funniness. But I will say that I'm probably much more enjoyable at a party now than I was as a drinker. That said, I go to a lot fewer parties.
- [05:23]
B
Interesting is a choice. Yeah.
- [05:25]
A
I don't enjoy socializing as much anymore. I'm very shy socially, and I stand behind any ficus or other thing that I can shield myself with. And really that's what alcohol is, by the way. It's like a ficus. Like you can always stand behind it because it keeps you a little bit removed from the world. And that's really what I loved about it. And so now I feel like, well, if I'm gonna go to a party, just a hot decide, why am I going to that party? So I stay home a lot more.
- [05:55]
B
How did your work style change once you became sober?
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A
My mind opened up because the amount of time it takes to be an alcoholic is crazy. You spend a lot of the day thinking about when you're gonna get your next drink. Then you have to go get that next drink. Then you drink it and all the drinks after that. And then you get home and you get in a fight with your husband, and then you have to, in the morning blame it on him or makeup or something. And it's just time consuming. So as a TV host, as a mom, I just had more time because I wasn't busy making problems and then being mad at myself for making problems.
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B
Oh, that was interesting. So you're making your own problems. Solving them. Making them. Solving them. Making them. Solving them.
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A
Yes, ma'.
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C
Am.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
Awful, right?
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B
It's awful. But you know what? It did something for you. Yeah, it did fed something for you.
- [06:48]
A
Absolutely. Listen, half the world is on some sort of drugs to help their mood, right? Drugs that your doctor prescribes to help you deal with the things you need to deal with. For me, I self medicated, and it was alcohol. And it also gave me a friend. You know, I've lived around the world. I always had alcohol there at the.
- [07:07]
B
End of a hard day.
- [07:08]
A
I had alcohol there at the end of a great day. Alcohol was my friend. And no one wants to dump a friend. Right. But then when that friend is mean.
- [07:15]
B
To you, you know, let's take a call. This is Nikki, who's calling in from Philadelphia. Hi, Nikki. Thank you for making the time to call.
- [07:23]
D
All of it. Hi.
- [07:26]
B
How's it going? It's going well.
- [07:29]
D
Yeah. I wanted to share my story. I was an alcoholic for a very long time. It got especially worse over Covid. I found myself in the emergency room with severe Withdrawal once I decided to cut back a little bit. And I also had end stage liver failure and I was 33 and I got a liver transplant and yeah, had to learn how to walk again because all my muscles atrophied while I was on life support. And after everything got through, it got back on my feet and now I own a non alcoholic bar.
- [08:09]
A
Hey, congrats. What's the name of your bar?
- [08:12]
D
Bar Palmina.
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A
All right, I want to check that out.
- [08:15]
B
Nikki, thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk about the podcast. How did it come about?
- [08:21]
A
Well, talkstoop had been over for about six years, and after I lost my job, I thought, I'll never go back to broadcast. My heart was broken, and then I was missing it so deeply, and I just wasn't sure how to get started.
- [08:37]
B
Running around interviewing the kids in the kitchen.
- [08:39]
A
Y.
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E
Yes.
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A
And I was feeling, you know, jealous when I would hear old guests of mine on the air with other hosts, and I thought, I want to be back with them. And then I heard Steve Earle, who was a talk stoop frequent flyer, and I heard him talking about his sobriety, and I was like, wait a minute, you can talk about your sobriety out loud. I thought it was like every alcoholic had the burden that AA puts on you of you can't say anything. Well, when he was talking about it, then I went to hear Hank Azaria play a concert, and he was talking about his sobriety, and I thought, listen, if these guys are out there talking about it, why not talk to me? And the show was born, like, the next day after I saw Hank.
- [09:18]
B
What did you think when you pitched it to people? Hey, I'd like to start a podcast about sobriety.
- [09:23]
A
Well, I realize that sounds like a huge snooze, right? Like, oh, sobriety, so boring. But people who want to tell their sober story, like our last caller there, want to tell it, you know, and they have their rap down and they want to spread the news and listen, getting sober has been such an important part of my life and the wellness of my family that I am about sharing these stories. It's the stories that keep me sober. So at first, I thought we were gonna have a hard time booking guests, and we did not have a hard time. Tim Daly was our first, and then from then, celebrities wanted to sign up and tell their stories, and that feels great.
- [10:02]
B
Well, let's listen to Tim Daly. People might know him from Wings and Madam Secretary, and he's been sober since the early 80s. And he told you a few very Harrowing details. Let's listen.
- [10:14]
E
I was a blackout drinker.
- [10:16]
A
Me, too.
- [10:17]
E
And I. And I kept doing. I mean, this is all very standard stuff for people that have a problem. I kept trying to prove to myself that I had control. You know, I'm going to stop for a week. And then I would start and I would have a blackout.
- [10:31]
B
But.
- [10:31]
E
But, I mean, I was driving around in blackouts. I was, you know, I was doing a lot of stuff that I couldn't remember, and I was, you know, losing time, losing my life. And I, you know, had this moment where I came out of a blackout. I was under a sink, having drunk a bottle of cooking sherry because everything else was gone. And this is a weird thing to say, but my mom was a terrible drunk for a long, long time, and she got sober. And so I knew that it was possible. I knew that it was out there. And her sister had gotten sober also. And I come from a long line of drunks stretching back to the stone age on both sides of my family.
- [11:17]
A
You come by it quite honestly.
- [11:18]
E
Oh. Oh, God. And, you know, I am absolutely positive there's a genetic component to it.
- [11:24]
B
In my case, that is from the podcast soberness. So, Kat, two things about that. What do you remember about that interview?
- [11:30]
A
It was my first one.
- [11:32]
B
Yeah.
- [11:32]
A
Back on the air after six, seven years. So I remember being very grateful to Tim Daly.
- [11:39]
B
And what did you learn from that interview that you would take down the road as your first interview? Like, okay, this is what I need to talk about. This is what I don't need to talk about.
- [11:49]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. That interview was all over the place and took a lot because of my interviewing style. You know, like, let me think about that. And, oh, now you just need to think about that instead of saying sticking to a flow that would work on a podcast. You know, podcast is much different than a TV show. And I think. And am. I think, like, and am a TV person. It's how I was raised. I spent almost 30 years on the air. Right. So for me, I had to learn how to organize my questions ahead of time in a way that would make for the least amount of editing afterward. That's a big feat for someone who's used to editing a lot of talk.
- [12:28]
B
To Lisa, who's called in. Hi, Lisa. Thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air.
- [12:33]
F
Oh, hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. I love it when people talk about sobriety because it's something that is still stigmatized, and I think that it's One of the most courageous things any of us could do is take that step towards claiming back our lives and ourselves. I'm sober seven years in February. And no matter how hard life gets, alcohol is just not a choice for me. I was what, you know, I wasn't. Everyone has a very low or high, you know, end, but I was a pretty high functioning alcoholic. But what was the most important thing for me was my husband couldn't confront me for whatever reason. I had to find a text that I sent him. I've never blacked out, basically telling him I wanted a divorce. And that led to my going into AA two days later. And I am so grateful for that moment, even though it was heart wrenching and Covid and this and that, but it did. I was in such a deep hole. I think the thing with alcoholism is that what people don't understand is it doesn't have to have physical manifestations that I was so deeply depressed that I didn't think anyone would care if I died except for my son.
- [13:58]
B
Oh, Lisa, thank you so much for calling in. I appreciate that. She said something interesting. She said there's still stigma around talking about sobriety. Why is there still stigma?
- [14:10]
A
Well, it's a weakness. People think, right? They think you can't handle it. You're not as strong as other people. You've clearly made some very bad decisions. So. And people also think that it is a decision. Having alcoholism is not a choice. Nobody wants it. But the crazy part about this disease is only you can make the choice to not be active in your disease, right? You don't ask to have it, but you have to decide and act on not having it.
- [14:40]
B
Our guest is the host of the Soberness podcast, Kat Greenleaf. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Kat Greenleaf. She's the guest. She's the host of the podcast Soberness. We'd also like to hear why you've decided to become sober. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. So, Kat, when you're doing your podcast, how far do you know to go with someone?
- [15:21]
A
Oh, another great question. Listen, I always try to go as far as possible, but you can feel it when somebody puts up that guardrail, you know, And I'm not out to bust anybody. You know, if this is how you want to describe your sobriety or if you Want to sugarcoat your experience because you're not quite ready to bring it out there. I'm okay with it. Talking about your sobriety at all is very brave. That said, of course I want all the deep, dirty stories, but I relate to my guests because I also don't like to tell my dirty stories either.
- [15:53]
B
Can you tell when someone's not telling you the truth?
- [15:55]
A
Yes.
- [15:57]
B
Can't you usually? Yeah, usually ask. If you keep asking questions, then you're like, yeah, right.
- [16:04]
A
And, you know, you're really hitting on something. One regret I have with the show is that I don't push it. That I don't push it a little bit more. I just have such great respect for my guests that I don't want to make them uncomfortable. That said, I get bummed out as a journalist when I know there's a deeper story under there.
- [16:20]
B
Yeah. Let's take some more calls. Let's talk to jj. Ima Marinek. Hey, jj, thanks for calling, all of it.
- [16:28]
C
Hi, thanks for taking my call.
- [16:29]
B
You're on the air.
- [16:31]
C
Yeah, I just wanted to, you know, I've been sober for about five years and, you know, completely sober, not California sober. And I just wanted to sort of talk about that. My story isn't dramatic. You know, I wasn't. A lot of the stories that we hear require sort of like bottom of the barrel scenario. But I kind of wanted to, you know, to speak up as a person who wasn't at the bottom of the barrel, who just wasn't happy doing that anymore and rooted it out of my life. And I think that there, you know, doesn't have to be a moment of, you know, absolute, you know, personal devastation to motivate sobriety. It can kind of come out of a healthy choice.
- [17:20]
B
Thank you so much for calling in. Did you want to weigh in?
- [17:23]
A
Yes, absolutely. You're so right. By the way, I'm also from amernac. Big ups. You know, one of our taglines on soberness is whatever works. And what I mean by that is whatever works to get you sober or whatever. You don't have to be down in the bottom. You don't have to have a big public flame out. You can just say, it is not working for me. So sobriety, soberness is what works. And that's okay, too.
- [17:46]
B
You interviewed Jonathan Goldstein, the host of Heavyweights, and he recently stop drinking.
- [17:52]
A
He did. So I'm a huge fan of his show Heavyweight. If you listeners here aren't listening to that, please do. It's such a great podcast, and it was off the air for a minute. And I had read in the Times that he was coming back. And in that article, he mentioned he had recently gotten sober. And as a fan, I was desperate to talk to him. But I also feel like it's really important to support people in early sobriety, because that can be the most tenuous time. And so when I reached out to him and he said yes, I was so grateful. And it was a so special interview for me because it was the first time he spoke about sobriety in public. And that's scary to do, especially, you know, if you're not a Charlie Sheen, where everyone knows that you were crazy on drugs. You know, you're just a guy, and people didn't know. And I have a lot of respect for him for that.
- [18:40]
B
Let's listen to a clip of Jonathan Goldstein describing how he used alcohol. This is from soberness.
- [18:46]
G
Alcohol in get. When I'd get together with family was kind of like putting on a bulletproof vest. It was like a cloak. It was. I felt protected, you know, because there's a way in which, like, family can get at you and really, like, hurt you, and you're vulnerable with them in a way that you can't be with anybody else. And so drinking helped things to just roll off me. And. But since I've stopped and then maybe this is the thing which you're talking about, which encourages introspection and having to go deep and is like, to find those tools within yourself that that's what you gotta do. And I have found that, yeah, more even. I've become a better listener with them. I'm not as sensitive, weirdly.
- [19:36]
B
And he talked about how he dealt with his family.
- [19:39]
A
Yeah.
- [19:40]
B
And that's a big issue coming up, especially now during the holidays. People in the next six weeks are going to be surrounded by alcohol. What have you learned from your guests as we're heading into these next six weeks?
- [19:54]
A
There are a few ways to handle it. The first is get your sober scaffolding around you. Friends you can call people who know that you're not drinking and make sure that you can connect with them. Keep your family visits short if you find that they're a trigger for you. Also, a big question we get this time of year is, how do you handle it when people say, oh, why aren't you drinking? And the best answer I've heard from any of my guests is, turn it into a positive. Yeah, I am not drinking. It's the best decision I ever made. Instead of, ugh, you know, yeah, I got a dui. My company is making me do it. And no own this. Yep. It's the best decision I ever made. You can talk about it on the upswing as opposed to focusing on the downswing.
- [20:39]
B
Let's talk to Marianne, who's calling in from Connecticut. Hi, Marianne. Thank you so much for calling all of it. You're on the air.
- [20:46]
D
Hi. Love your show and thanks so much for taking my call. I'm so happy to hear this on the radio. I've been sober for just past 27 years. And, you know, I was also not one of these classic, like, low bottom people. I was, you know, I was in my early 30s. I looked really great. I had a great job. I lived in a great place, and I loved, you know, really good wine and I loved a good looking drink. You know, like, my favorite was a gimlet. And who doesn't like raising one of those? But, you know, I grew up in a family of alcoholism and mental illness, and I drank with the best of them. It was kind of a point of pride, you know, that I could stay later than anybody else. I could look really good. I knew what to order. And I just had this nagging feeling. For a really long time. I knew I was an alcoholic. And when I got sober, it also wasn't like this devastating moment. It was like I woke up after another night in a taxi cab on my way to my office, and I thought, oh, my God, I can't do this anymore. And it was only after I got sober that I realized I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror. And I hadn't done that for years.
- [22:13]
B
You bring me. Thank you so much for calling in. And this brings me to another clip I want to play because really, it means a lot. It's your discussion with Daryl McDaniels, founding member of Run DMC. And Kat, you got a lot from this conversation about forgiveness and shame. What message did you get from him?
- [22:32]
A
Oh, Darryl, more than anybody, helped me to relieve some of the shame. Listen, being alcoholic means you are carrying around guilt and shame. Nobody is free of that. And for me, who'd been a drinker for such a long time, my guilt and shame ran pretty deep and still does. But he spoke about it in a way that allowed me to almost make friends with my past and not be so mad at it and not blame myself for it. He looks at alcoholism like any other disease. You have a broken arm, you have a cold, you have alcoholism.
- [23:10]
B
Let's take a listen.
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H
Little things cause you to be emotionally sparked.
- [23:15]
A
Who are you telling. I get it. Listen, I know we're all supposed to say, hi, I'm Kat. I'm a grateful, recovering alcoholic. Gratitude is not the first thing on my list when I think about my alcoholism. I think about what a show it caused for so many decades in my life.
- [23:32]
H
Exactly. Exactly. But it's nothing to be ashamed about. Cause you beat and defeat it. You're a superhero. You prove you could beat and defeat whatever you're struggling against.
- [23:42]
A
I have so much shame around my drinking. So much. I blew up so much stuff. I hurt so many people. I nearly hurt so many people by driving under the influence.
- [23:56]
H
Oh, I did that. Oh, that's the one thing I hate when I think of all the nights. And I'm not afraid to admit it, though. I drove drunk so many times, and I'm thankful. And I ain't kill nobody for real. Somebody needs to hear that rather than not hear that. Unless you admit how you feel. Whether good or bad, you never heal. So part of your healing is admitting that shame. I up. Because what I mean by that is this. We celebrate people that says, I feel like a million dollars a day. I can take all the world. I'm depressed. Get away from me, weirdo. I drove drunk. I get away. There's nothing wrong. That's when you receive your power.
- [24:39]
B
Why did that conversation really stick with you?
- [24:42]
A
Oh, gosh. First of all, just being with Darrell, his presence, his energy is intoxicating. I'm also a lifelong Run DMZ fan, so there was that. And maybe that's it. You know, maybe it's just hearing my idol say, hey, you are okay, and then turning it into a superpower. You know, I don't spend a lot of time thinking, yeah, I vanquished that. I defeated that. I am 12 years without alcohol. I. I don't think about that. I think about all the bad things I did leading up to those 12 years. So he reframed it for me in a way that has really helped every day since then.
- [25:21]
B
What advice would you give to someone who's listening right now, who's drinking, but they can't stop?
- [25:28]
A
I know it is the worst feeling on earth to think I am not able to give this up. I will be a slave to this forever. Because I was there. I was there thinking, I don't want to drink today. And then, you know, within the hour, definitely drinking. If this alcoholic whose voice you're hearing right now can put it down, so can you. As hopeless as you may feel today, please take my word for it. There is so much hope for you. There's so much support out there. You do not need to do this alone. And truly it is not your fault. You can get out of this.
- [26:08]
B
Monk, you've got about 40 seconds. Tell us your story.
- [26:13]
C
Yes, I just want to thank you again for having this subject on the radio. I just want to speak out towards like service industry people like this because, you know, as a shy person myself, I'm very good as a bartender. I created regulars as far as the day is long. But you know, I need alcohol to do that and, and I feel like I'm not the only person who works in service industry who doesn't want to get caught up in this and ends up getting caught up in this and just using it as a way to tolerate service and putting on a smile for people who don't give a about you. And I think that.
- [26:56]
B
Thank you. So this you're listening to all of it on wnyc. My guest has been Kat Greenlee. She' host of the Soberness podcast. Any words of wisdom to leave us, our listeners with?
- [27:08]
A
Yes, if you're going to a holiday gathering, bring your own non alcoholic beverage. That way you'll make sure you have something to hold in your hand and you'll feel like one of the big kids.
- [27:18]
B
Kat, thank you for coming in and thanks for being so candid. We really appreciate it.
- [27:22]
A
Thanks for having me and thanks to.
- [27:24]
B
All of our callers who called in with their stories. Coming up, a new documentary explores the unlikely origins of one the of of the most controversial days of the year. We'll hear about the history of SantaCon. That's coming up after the break.
- [27:41]
A
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- [28:19]
B
By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a.
- [28:21]
A
Community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to learn more.