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- [00:09]
A
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. 2026 will be the year that a podcast will win a Golden Globe award. It's the first year that podcasts will be considered. And yes, that includes NPR's Up first as one of the five nominees. It's been a big year for audio listening. Someone who has thought a lot about it is industry exper and friend of the show, Lauren Pessell. She is the founder of Tink Media and curator of Podcast the newsletter, and she also writes around podcasts for Lifehacker. She's here to share some of her favorite podcasting moments from the past year. Hey, Lauren.
- [00:47]
B
Hi, Alison. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me again. You know, you could call me in the middle of the night and I want to talk to you about podcasts. I love it.
- [00:55]
A
So if you had to create a headline for the year and podcasts, what would the headline look like? What would it sound like? What words would be involved in it?
- [01:05]
B
Ooh. I mean, it's been, you know, a lot of podcasters have been having a tough year. I'd say a lot of change in transitions and goodbyes. A lot of shows, big shows ending, you know, Marc Maron ended his show. That seemed like a big moment, you know, and I have to say, pivot to video. Pivot to video. They're all pivoting to video.
- [01:26]
A
Does a podcast need to pivot to video at this point?
- [01:30]
B
Absolutely not. I think if you want to, you know, I think some of the larger shows that are really trying to get those gigantic numbers could, you know, should be on video. But I think too many people think they have to be, and they totally don't have to.
- [01:44]
A
What have you seen as shifts across genres and formats in 2025?
- [01:50]
B
Well, you know, I think there's one thing that I'm seeing lately that I'm not a big fan of is podcasters forgetting that there's audio people there. They have video podcasts and they're forgetting that I'm listening. So they're doing visual. They're doing things with their hands and explaining things or, you know, doing things like can only listen to. So I think, hopefully we start think keeping the listeners in mind. But I'm noticing that trend. I'm as a listener, I'm also noticing that there's more funding coming from the listeners doing patreons and stuff like that. But genre wise, you know, there's a lot of more. The chat shows are coming up, you know, celebrity. This is the first time I'VE been here talking to you where I've said celebrity shows are really, really big. But you know, tons of chat, tons of video, but there's still some beautiful things being made. And that is what I'm really here excited to talk to you about that are just chat shows but really like investigative things, you know, things that have taken teams of many people a long time to make.
- [02:55]
C
Let's get into your list. Let's start with text me back. These are two friends. The kind of say, you know, text me back and sometimes some hilarity will ensue. One name is sort of familiar. It's Lindy Lindsay Wets, the writer. Who is the other person and what is special about their friendship?
- [03:13]
B
Well, yeah, Lindy west is, you know, she wrote Shrill, which was on Shrill, the TV show and she's written a lot on the Internet and she's hysterical. And Megan is her co host on text me back and she's, she works in politics. But they're, they're so they're technically not like stand up comedians, but I, nothing makes me laugh harder than listening to them talk. And I was just kind of saying I don't, I don't really listen to too many chat shows. Um, this one is, gets me every single time. It is so funny. And they just go back. So, you know, they've been friends for so long, I don't know how long, you know, if any listeners have remember call your girlfriend, which was a long running show where two friends kind of caught up over the phone and it feels like that, you know, I think there's, there's their friendship. They are talking about their lives a lot. It's kind of undescribable. And I think I just feel like if you listen to an episode or two and you're walking down the sidewalk, you'll feel yourself having to stop and just burst into laughter. They bring a lot of joy.
- [04:23]
C
Let's play a clip from an episode called Lindy and Megan have a complicated relationship with socks.
- [04:31]
D
It has a little text box that says, what do you want co pilot to draft? First of all, nothing. I'm doing it. I'm draft that. I'm draft. I, this is my livelihood. Why would I want you in here? And then the suggestions it gives. It says, do you want copilot to write an email to invite parents to the school bake sale? I'm sorry, are you struggling with that? Then you shouldn't be allowed near an oven. My God, are you insane? How about this? Hi, all. School's hosting Bake sale on this date this time. Hope you can be there. RSVP at the link. All the best. Mom and dad of student Megan. How many small towns did you parch to death coming up with that? 13 to 20.
- [05:26]
C
Well, that wasn't about socks, but it was funny.
- [05:28]
D
0Oh, none. Yeah, I mean, that's right.
- [05:31]
B
The other thing is, I love is they could talk about nothing. It could be like. And it's hysterical. The. I can't remember why they're talking about socks in this episode, but you know, y' all are just gonna have to listen to the whole episode and find out. But they, you know, they could be talking about getting a salad for lunch and it makes my day. They never stop.
- [05:52]
C
Called Text me back. Your next recommendation comes from the show Suspicious Minds. The episode is called Is AI Making Us Psychotic? In the opening to the episode, we're introduced to Allan, the loving father of three, who says that Chat GPT gaslit him into thinking he was digital Jesus. Wow.
- [06:13]
B
Yeah.
- [06:14]
C
What questions does this show raise?
- [06:16]
B
I mean, this is. It features Dr. Joel Gold and Ian Gold. They're actually brothers that invented the idea of the Truman Delusion, you know, where you believe that you're being. You're on a TV show, you know, so this is a show about psychosis, but specifically how AI is a trigger for delusional thinking. What I really like about it is, you know, they're telling. I feel like we've all heard these stories, right, in news headlines or on social media about, you know, this guy who in this case, his name's Alan, he is a regular smart father who, you know, start. Was talking to ChatGPT and he's. It started telling him that he was, you know, inventing this word changing code for modern cryptology and that what he, what he was figuring out was dangerous and that he had to. Some government agency was about to stop him. And it, you know, Alan says he kept on asking for sanity checks. He kept on saying to Chat GPT, you know, how is this happening? Is this real? And there's just really. He really. His story, he takes you through exactly what it felt like to get there. And so what I like about this show is, first of all, you realize how normal Alan is, that this is a really smart person. And also this, this show has a lot of empathy for these stories because I feel like we've seen them in headlines, right? The digital Jesus. ChatGPT convincing someone they're digital Jesus. That's a splashy headline you might have heard. But we. You don't really get to hear the story, to really understand how this is easier than you think for it to happen to someone really smart. But really they are going through all these stories and explaining exactly what, you know, what is happening in psychosis, specifically when it comes to AI.
- [08:03]
A
That's called suspicious minds. My guest is Lauren Pessell. She's a life hacker, podcast writer, Tink Media, founder and curator of podcasts, the newsletter we're talking about, the year in podcasts. Let's talk about something that is just plain silly and is very funny. It's something from the uk. Tell us about the podcast. When the cops say no, we say yes.
- [08:27]
B
I'm so glad you wanted to talk about this one. We all need a little silliness in our lives, right? It's basically these two podcasters are kind of becoming detectives for cases that are too small for any, you know, real detective to cover. So, you know, tiny, you know, the, the smallest things that you might not think are worth the, you know, police department's time and investigating, they are going to investigate it. And what I like is they invest it with completely seriously. Like they, they take, they put their entire effort and they're, they're doing, you know, photo shoots. You know, they're really like doing long interviews. These are, you know, sometimes three part pieces where they're trying to figure out, you know, who maybe had an accident on the wall in a bathroom during a wedding service. That's a three part episode. But it's really actually done quite seriously. Like if you were kind of listening, not listening to the words, you might think it was actually a true crime documentary. But then you start listening to the content, you're like, this can't be serious. It is serious, but it's the silly crimes taken very seriously and it's a complete silly delight.
- [09:40]
A
It also has really great sound design.
- [09:44]
B
Yes. It's almost like they kind of. It feels like a little like documentary, actually, I think. Yeah.
- [09:51]
A
You also want to shout out a series about Fela Kuti from WNYC alum Radiolab founder Jad Abumrad. We had him on the show when he came on. Let's listen to a little bit of the podcast and we can talk about it on the other side.
- [10:06]
D
It's another way to deal with time.
- [10:11]
E
React to music. I always describe it as a.
- [10:15]
B
Well.
- [10:19]
E
You know, when, when you have a cyclo, it starts off as this little thing that builds up and it builds up. The more you allow it to circulate, it just starts to get bigger, get bigger. Get bigger. Get bigger.
- [10:41]
D
Very cool.
- [10:44]
B
So, Lauren, what I want to ask.
- [10:45]
A
You is how the series uses musical editing, because people heard that right there. To tell the story of Felikuti and his music.
- [10:55]
B
Well, I just, I think it's hard to explain what this music did to the world. I think it's impossible to understand Felicuti and what he did, except the way that, you know, Jad brings in beautiful sound production to help us understand, not just through interviews, which, by the way, that, you know, there's people, you know, Paul McCartney talking to people like Questlove, Santa Gold, you know, Obama about Fellow Coutil. Hearing those interviews is very interesting mixed into all of this. Then there's the history part. Telling the story, the bat, fellow Kuti. But hearing the music, it feels a little like meditative hearing it. And I think hearing the music, you know, you really understand the power of music. And it doesn't. It's not just playing little bits of music. Because I think part of the reason Fellow Couti's music was so powerful was kind of that it was a little bit meditative. It was a movement. And so really hearing the music as presented as a movement, you really, you really have to hear it. You have to hear the music interspersed with this history in these interviews to understand who fella cout was.
- [12:06]
C
Another WNYC alum, Amy Pearl hosts a podcast called Audio Flux. It features innovative 3 minute works of audio from around the world. Some are by well known artists. What are some examples of the kind of works featured on Audio Flux?
- [12:22]
B
Well, I, I'm awesome. I, I just almost said, I'm so glad you chose this. I'm so glad you chose all of these to talk about the Audio Flux I love, because every single one, they're presented in little circuits. So this circuit that, the latest circuit is they all have rules, right? The circuits have rules. And then they go to audio producers and ask them to submit 3 minute pieces based on the rules. So they're all tiny, perfectly crafted pieces. These are like the best audio makers in the industry. And you know, they only have three minutes. So every single second is beautiful in these. And this theme is basically every single piece had to draw from the theme of letting go. It had to include previously unshared personal archival tape, which is interesting. What did you have that you can share? And it also had to take inspiration from illustrations from this illustrator named Wendy. So the audio designers had to choose an illustration to be inspired by. So sometimes it's just three minutes of someone exploring their laughter, or in this One, one of the ones that I had sent to you, it was someone exploring their relationship with their grandmother and you get to hear their grandmother's voice. So they're all so beautiful, such a treat and just really perfect. It doesn't get much better than this when it comes to sound quality.
- [13:46]
C
I want to ask you about a five part series called A Tiny Plot about an activist encampment in Oakland. Tell us more.
- [13:55]
B
Yeah, a Tiny Plot. It's kind of in. In San Francisco, this group of unhoused people kind of did this little experiment in co governance where they were trying to make their own community rules and obviously the government didn't want them doing this. They're trying to shut down their encampment and this group of people decided to fight back and they barricaded themselves in and this Shayna went in, the reporter Shayna, she went in and really like spent a lot of time with them and got to know them. And you get to know them too in this piece and really understand where they all came from, how they all ended up here and why they are fighting so hard and what it is really like if given the chance, they are given the chance to make this community make their own rules, choose their own leaders. And what happens when you give them the chance to. To do this and can it succeed? It's an incredible story at all. It's just like an incredible story to see what happens to them. But also the audio that get is just incredible because Sheena really spent the time, which is something. It's becoming rarer and rarer. That reporter can go in and immerse themselves in a world like this and then bring it back to you with great sound and. And reporting.
- [15:13]
C
Okay, dealer's choice. Your last podcast you want to highlight.
- [15:17]
B
Oh my gosh. I think. Oh, only one. You know what, let's do a fiction 2000. Late is a new fiction podcast from, you know, the same woman that did the Bright Sessions. Her name's Lauren and it is a. It follows the story of Harper, who's this 36 year old person who. Her life is upended. She's possessed by this demon, but the demon is 20 years late in possessing her and it is just hysterical. The demon is not your typical demon you would hear. If you listen to the show, you'll hear right away why the demon is a little bit different. But also it's. Well, it's beautifully made, but it's also very hopeful and kind of asks the questions about like it's a story about rage, but it's also speaking to a lot of the things we're feeling right now about being angry in this world and is what you know, how can we also have hope in a world that's making us angry? Will angry? Will getting angry pay your bills? You know, is is this world a good enough place to be optimistic for?
- [16:18]
A
Lauren Pel has been my guest. Thank you for all your recommendations. Lauren.
- [16:23]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [16:24]
F
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- [16:57]
G
Delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. With three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City. By sponsoring programming like NYC now, you'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.