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- [00:08]
A
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. We're really grateful that you're here. On today's show, we're going to talk about the new musical Mexican, which tells the little known story of the real underground railroad that took formerly enslaved people south to Mexico. We'll speak with two local artists who have exhibits at the Montclair Art Museum. And musician Yasmin Lacey joins us for a listening party for her new album, Teal Dreams. That's our plan. So let's get this started with a play about what happens when a man drops $300,000 on a plain white painting. There are two things around here that we like a lot, art and theater. And today we have a play that tackles them both. The revival of Art by Yasmina Reza has audiences guessing will a friendship hold over a disagreement. Serge spent $300,000 on a painting that looks like a white square. Serge is thrilled by the work and by the artist and can't wait to show it to his friend, Mark. Mark thinks that painting is a load of baloney and doesn't understand why anyone would think otherwise. Their friend Ivan kind of wants to be Switzerland on all this. He has his own issues to work out, which March and Serge seem to ignore until they don't. And so begins 100 minutes of an examination of who values what and what does that mean? And the show is very funny to boot. Neil Patrick Harris plays the buyer of the art. James Corden plays the neutral ish friend. And my next guest, Bobby Cannavale, plays the flummox brainiac who can't seem to leave it alone. The play was directed by Scott Ellis, and they both join me now.
- [01:58]
B
Welcome.
- [01:59]
A
Come to the studio.
- [02:00]
B
Hi, Allison. Thanks for having me. Thanks for that. Nice intro.
- [02:02]
A
We also want to say that Art is at the Music box theater until December 21st. This play was written by Yasmina Reza. And you had a chance to actually talk to her?
- [02:11]
B
Yeah, we did.
- [02:13]
A
What did you want to know about the play? What did you want to know about Mark?
- [02:16]
B
Oh, I wanted to know the history of it. I wanted to know what inspired her to write it. What the. You know, it's a very personal story for her. You know, she's got this. The guy's name was Serge. She has a novel coming out. It's just come out. It's called Serge. Every one of her things she's written has a character named Serge. So Serge was a pretty important person in her life. And he was a person, a friend of hers who bought a piece of art that she didn't understand. And that was the inspiration for this story over 35 years ago now. And we did. We got to have her for four days in late June. Right.
- [02:54]
C
About a month before we started rehearsal.
- [02:55]
B
About a month before we started rehearsal, we had her in town for four days. As you know, this play has been translated into 50 different languages, and it's taught in the curriculum in France. It's a very popular play. And surprisingly, it hasn't been revived here in New York in 27 years, which is a long time between for a revival. So we were very excited to honor the play and its original intent. And so, you know, it was nice to get to talk to her about what she originally intended and how it resonates today. And it's a funny thing, you know, the other day we had a group of people, and then we did a little Q and A afterwards, and they pointed out that nobody pulled. And it's true. And we don't. We don't. We're not treating the play as if it's taking place 20, 30 years ago. It's just that these people do not pull out a phone. They're actually having this discourse without checking their phones. And, I mean, that's really rare today. And I've had people come up to me after the show to say, I didn't even think about pulling out my phone during this play.
- [03:53]
A
That's interesting.
- [03:54]
C
When it was sent to me and I read it, I was shocked of how modern it felt. And it didn't feel like a period piece at all. And we changed, actually nothing, except all we changed was the price of the painting and how much she pays the housekeeper. That was literally it.
- [04:13]
B
That was it.
- [04:14]
C
We didn't touch anything else. And so that was what sort of was remarkable about the piece, that, you know, she wrote it over 30 years ago.
- [04:23]
A
What did you want to know from your four days with Yasmina?
- [04:26]
C
I mean, I was. So we were grateful because of our scheduling, we didn't have as much time in rehearsal, so we pulled up a month earlier, and I asked Yasmina if she would come in. And it was pretty great because we weren't talking about the set, we weren't talking about costume. We weren't talking about blocking. We just sat at a table, read and asked questions. It was sort of perfect.
- [04:50]
B
Yeah. And really, you know, what she's exploring is male friendship. Right. And what the play is. I mean, the artwork is really just a catalyst, right? And so they're talking about everything else really underneath. And that's what was interesting to her. You know, when you have a long term friendship, a 25 year friendship, what goes unsaid, as in, like, what are the roles we play in those relationships that we don't really talk about? We just play them. There's an alpha, there's a follower, there's Switzerland. And we don't really talk about it until something, a major event like this happens. And how do we constructively argue our way through it? I think like argument now is such a bad word. But argument can be healthy, right? It used to be, at least. And so I think that kind of discourse, I think people really do appreciate that. I really appreciated talking to her about how we can get back to having a constructive argument. And it's all right there on the page. And I think it's satisfying for people to be a part of that, to get to be in the room with something like that.
- [06:01]
C
And that's really what it's about. Can a friendship survive when you have different opinions or different thoughts? Whether it was religion or politics? We're in this tricky time now that we tend to shut a door and we don't talk or discuss. And that's exactly what this play is about.
- [06:20]
A
Bobby, how would you describe Mark to someone who hasn't met him yet?
- [06:26]
B
I think Mark is somebody who is a pragmatist. He is somebody who is an aesthete. Even though he describes Serge as an aesthete, I think he would probably describe Serge as a capital aesthete. I think that he has a taste, a level of taste, and he's somebody who is. Gosh, that's a good question, Alison. It's a hard one to describe because I know how I process the character, but I just think he's somebody who tells it like it is. You know, he's just one of those people and he's reactive. And he is somebody who is very comfortable leading with his opinion, no matter how reactive it may be. And he's happy to talk his way around it and engage in argument. He's somebody who is argumentative and happily so, but he's not dumb. And I think, you know, these two characters, Serge and Mark, have reached a point in this, when we find them in the play, where I think he feels like his intelligence is being challenged by a friend who he's been able to lead for many years. And I think that's not okay with him. And I think he fights for that and fights for his role, to keep his role in this relationship.
- [07:53]
A
Scott, you're working with three big name actors. How did you work on your chemistry with them?
- [08:00]
C
Part of it. James was sort of the puzzle. James was in first, then I went to Bobby next.
- [08:06]
A
For this particular role?
- [08:08]
C
Yeah, for this particular role. We've known each other for a very long time and I've worked with his partner Rose and I just have always loved his work. And I thought, oh, I think this might be a good match. Once I got him, I went to Neil and that was the triangle. And I was on vacation, I came back, they had a zoom. I mean, they had a photo shoot and I didn't have to be there, but I went cause I wanted to see how the three of them work together. Because I don't think the play can work unless you really believe these three people like each other. And three good actors and three great actors. But you have to believe they like each other. And I tell the stories that we rehearsed a lot, then they took a break and they would always go to this table and talk and the stage manager would try to pull them back in and I'd always stop her, say, no, no, no, don't pull them back in. What we're doing in rehearsal is really important. What they're doing right now is more important.
- [09:03]
A
So what do Neil and James give you as actors that helps you in your job?
- [09:12]
B
You know, I'm really grateful for those guys. They've got just great stage chops. I mean, you know, Scott, Scott could have, you know, you get one of those guys wrong, it's. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work. So, you know, you have three guys who have a lot of stage experience. And every time I'm up on that stage, like I'm never, I'm never worried. Those guys are so deft. And they can feel the molecular like vibe of every audience. Every audience is different. And I never worry about it. They can feel it. They know what's out there. They can feel, they can feel the slight shifts. They could feel. They're great improvisers. That's not to say that they go off script. It's just that it's never the same show every night. Those guys know how to live on stage, I guess. And so there's nothing I worry about because they're not up there doing, hitting their marks. They're really living up there.
- [10:06]
A
How did you work, Scott? And maybe you didn't do this, but I thought as I was watching it, the direction of this sort of subverts the audience's expectations of the three actors. I wondered how you, how you did that as a director, because you have a sort of vision of what James Corden is like from watching him on tv. You have a vision of what Neil's like on tv. How did you subvert that?
- [10:31]
C
I mean, I think you always have to lean into the character and what's going on in that situation. And it is a very, very funny play. But I don't think we ever talked about, let's play the comedy, you know, because underneath it is some serious stuff that's going on and a possibility of destruction of a 25 year old friendship. So I think it was just focusing that as far as what the characters wanted, what they're, you know, and really. And that sort of took care of, you know, separating of, oh, I know this person. But I'm gonna let that go pretty fast because now I'm involved with what's being said and how it's being done.
- [11:08]
A
In this story, we're discussing the play Art about three friends who have a huge disagreement that leads to many revelations. It's playing at the Music box theater until December 21st. My guests are actor Bobby Cannavale and director Scott Ellis. So Mark, he starts the play by talking to the audience. He's describing the painting. You're not quite sure what he thinks about it yet because he doesn't know how much it costs quite yet. What is it you wanted the audience to understand when you first meet them?
- [11:37]
B
You know, that's a challenge, actually. That's something we had to work and work through previews, actually, because it's tempting to tip it a little bit in the beginning, right? This guy, I mean, I think you can tell that this guy is sort of an alpha, right? And that he's gonna have an opinion about it. And it's probably that he doesn't like the painting. But we had to fight that as much as we could. And that was challenging because you can feel the audience, it's like they know. And Yasmina would say, I don't want them to know. We need to work as hard as we can. And Scott saying, you know, as hard as we can, we need to, we need to. We don't see these guys getting along very much in the beginning of the play. So any opportunity that we can, we've got to find it. Like when the lights come up after that speech to the audience and we're looking at the painting, we don't want to Know what he thinks of it until he says the line very quickly, shortly after the play starts. But before that, we just want to get the feeling that this guy. That these guys have an easy rapport with each other, that him offering his opinion isn't going to lead to the problems that it leads to. And I think, like that opening thing about this white painting with white lines, that it has to be said with no judgment at all. And that was challenging for me. It was tempting to feel the audience like. I know I could get a laugh if I were to lean into how he really feels about the painting. But I really avoid it now. And now I enjoy that. I enjoy them not knowing how he feels about it.
- [13:11]
C
Yeah. I think, like Bobby said, the most important thing is to really see the friendship, you know, their history. And that's when you see it at the beginning. We also had an interesting happen. We slowed it down. We were a little too fast at the beginning. And Yasmina had said, yeah, it was interesting how. Just take your time. Just trust it. Take your time. It'll take its own rhythm. But let's live with these guys for a little bit at the beginning. And that was an adjustment.
- [13:37]
B
And it's a great thing to note about live theater anyway, right? You know, you gotta, like. You want people to forget that they're in a theater. It's a hard thing to do when you're surrounded by a thousand people and you've got a drink in your hand and there's, you know, as one friend used to say to me, I don't like the theater because I feel like it throws something at you and throw the whole thing off. But you want to give people that time, so. So it takes a second for people to get acclimated and know where they are. And slowing down is essential. Sometimes in these plays, you know, we're breaking the fourth wall. There's a lot of things that the audience has to get used to. You know, these names that we mentioned, they're French names as well. So you've got people in the audience going, what did he say? Who's that? You know? And so, yeah, those kind of things. And taking care of your audience so that they can, you know, be taken in, into the world of the play and forget that they're sitting in a theater. It's really important.
- [14:30]
A
It so much reminded me about being in college, the way we used to talk about bands, right? Because, you know, back in the 90s, you're very cool if you thought Pearl Jam, they're a bunch of Posers or something. Or today, even with Taylor Swift, it sort of tells somebody something about you more than just your musical taste. What is it that Mark is arguing about? When he says, I don't like the painting.
- [14:57]
B
I think he's arguing about. I think what he's saying is, I don't like who you're becoming. It's not really about the painting. It's about, I'm losing you as a friend. Because we have, we have. We might have had discourse about things that we didn't agree on before, but this, this is too far. You are leaving. You're. You're leaving me, basically. And I think that's the fear. That's, that's, that's what's driving him to, to these extremes, you know, to these extreme emotional ends. I think it really does, it's undoing him in a way that is, you know, I think that happens in friendships, in long term friendships especially. I think if, like, if the dynamic and the order of event, the order of the way things are supposed to go in a friendship get thrown off, I think that is like, that's a really hard thing to recover from. And I think Mark is solid in refusing to let that happen. So I think it's really about the friendship. And again, not about the painting.
- [15:59]
C
Yeah, not about the painting at all.
- [16:02]
B
Not at all.
- [16:02]
C
Not at all.
- [16:03]
B
It's funny, you know, I. When I started this whole journey on this play, I was a lot like Mark, I thought, you know, and I've come around so much. I look at that painting every night and you know, it's just. It's a painting that's painted by our, you know, one of our. By Andy. Right. Who's our prop, your property master. And it's, it's, it's, it's kind of. I get lost in it every night. And now I've gone to museums and like, I really like to look at the monochromatic paintings. I've really gotten into the Yves Klein blue. I've gotten into the Rothkos in such a way now that there's something about the void of the painting that I never really considered. And now I've come around on it. So. But I don't think for Mark, but that's because that's about the painting. It's not connected to anybody leading, you know, trying to force me to like this painting. The way Serge is trying to break free from Mark and the hold Mark has had on him, you know.
- [16:59]
A
Scott, let me ask you a director question. This is a three hander. What's important when you are trying to put a three hander on stage.
- [17:08]
C
They all had to be great stage actors. So that was number one. I said there wasn't. They're all three great stage actors. And that was the most important thing. You had to have people who were able to use language, know how to be on stage. They're animals. And that's. These three are the best of the best. I mean, honestly.
- [17:29]
A
What about lighting in terms of whether a person is upstage, downstage? How did you think about that?
- [17:34]
C
Well, it's interesting. People haven't seen the show. It all takes place in one environment, one apartment. And the apartment changes through a painting that changes on the wall. You probably don't mind. Each apartment every time is subtly different lighting wise. The time of the day is a little different. Everything is a little different every time. I'm not saying everyone will notice it, but we were very clear when we were lighting it how that and then how important it was to light the painting whenever you saw the painting, especially the white painting. How could we do that and make sure that that's clear?
- [18:09]
A
Bobby, I saw this early in previews and you sort of. You didn't skip a line, but you flubbed a line a little bit in this one instance and you wouldn't have known it except you shook your head and the audience kind of like was with you when you did it. What happens when you.
- [18:24]
B
Oh, I remember that, Joe. I think we laughed a little bit, didn't we?
- [18:26]
A
Yeah, we did laugh a little bit.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah. Yeah. You know, like again, those guys, I feel in such great hands with those guys. It's happened a couple times, but that's the sort of. That's what happens, right? You know the play, you know it. I mean, the few times that I have flubbed lines, the lines I've never flubbed, you know, that I, you know, I forgot the word profound. What's the word? Tolerant. One night and you know, it's a word I use many times in the play. And I don't know how the hell I forgot that word, but I did and. But those guys are always there to pick me up and you know, it feels like an eternity on stage when that happens. Right. But it's only a couple seconds. But you know, yeah, the audience, this is great. It's like they're the, they're, you know, they're. You can't, you can't have that experience. You can't do these plays. You can't do a play without an audience. The audience is. They're part of it. And. And they're supportive. They want to be there, especially when they're on the ride, you know. And so I remember that night, specifically in. The audience was delighted by that moment. But it is terrifying. And at the same time, I'm up there with two incredible artists.
- [19:31]
C
But it's also live theater, so everyone loves when something like that happens. They do. It's a reminder. It's like it's not gonna happen.
- [19:39]
A
You know, I interviewed Ethan Hawke over the weekend about Blue Moon. And you're in Blue Moon. You play a bartender. He plays Lorenz Hart. And I asked him about stage actors versus film actors. Does it help when you have stage actors working in film? And he was very. But basically said, yeah, stage actors are. They're the real deal. What's good about working with actors in film who have been stage actors?
- [20:06]
B
Oh, I just think they've got, like, you know, the element of rehearsal. You know, the rehearsal element is. It's just not something you do in film. Right. I mean, most movies aren't rehearsed. And I've worked with plenty of actors who rehearse on their own. You know, if you make a movie with Al Pacino. He's going to figure out a way to get you over to his house to rehearse. Like, the production's probably not paying for it. They don't care whether you're rehearsing or not. But, you know, not everybody's Al Pacino, so. And there are very few directors that like to rehearse. Richard Linkletter likes to rehearse, for instance. Sidney Lumet used to like to rehearse for weeks. But most of them don't. And so the toolbox just isn't as full with actors who've never worked on stage. It just isn't, you know, like, you know, when you're rehearsing, you get to try it. So different ways you get to. You don't just get to come up with the one way you want to get it right on film. You know, they always say, you know, well, you know, film. It's really the one take that's important. Well, I still don't approach a movie like that. I'll still try it many different ways. And I think, like, that kind of versatility with stage actors is just different. And I think it's better, too. I'd rather, much rather make a movie with a bunch of people who've worked on stage. And not to say that, you know, there aren't great film actors. But somebody like Ethan you can really play with Ethan and you know that it's going to be really specific no matter how he's doing it, because he's just got a. He's just got a really big toolkit. You know, he's just facile actor, like many of these guys who've spent their whole careers on stage.
- [21:48]
C
Yeah. There's no way that anybody who does theater is not going to be a better actor when they leave to go back to Phil Patel. That's just impossible.
- [21:57]
A
Scott, I want to talk to you about comic timing, because all three actors that you're working with have it. How did you use it to your advantage? How did you keep it from getting in the way of the serious part of this show?
- [22:11]
C
Yeah, I mean, again, they're all three brilliant actors and they're all three brilliant. Understand comedy, again, we didn't approach it as a comedy. We really went in saying what's at stake here and making sure it can adjust and change when it needed to change. You know, it gets on a road of laughter and that, but then it, it does turn and it gets vicious, really is what it is. And we talk about that a lot of how, how, how hard it, how hard they have to go after each other when we get to that, that point. So. And then finally the audience tells you a lot. You know, once it's the last, it's the last group that's in, you know, and they become the most important because they'll tell you, you might think, oh, this is working, or this is this. They understand that and then they don't, or it doesn't. So that also shifts and helps with comedy, I think, as far as what, how things are flowing and how things are working.
- [23:08]
B
Well, let's be clear, James is never serious. James is like a natural born comedian, that guy. I've never really met somebody with that kind of life force. Like, he is hysterical. We spent so much time laughing, laughing in the rehearsals. Cause James is just incapable of taking anything seriously. So we would just laugh so much. So there was no. I was never worried that, for instance, that character wasn't gonna be funny. You know, he's a brilliant physical comedian. And you know, again, because he's got chops because he's done so much theater, you know, the. And we have a great play. I knew we were gonna be in good hands. But like, purely comedically speaking, like, that guy really is the North Star. He's funny. He's just very, very funny. And you know, that long speech that he has is. It's a pretty famous speech in the canon of modern comic plays. And I never for a second, you know, doubted that that was gonna score, you know, and so it helps, it helps to have a guy who you just, I mean, I just laughed, cried laughing in rehearsal for.
- [24:22]
C
Yeah, we did. We laughed.
- [24:23]
B
We laughed so much, much we laughed. And you know, the play, when there's nobody in the room, it's not like people are laughing at that play. The audience really does tell you a lot. The first audience we had, we couldn't believe how much, how many laughs there were. We didn't really, really understand how funny it would be. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:43]
A
Rose Byrne, your partner is gonna be on the show on Thursday for her new film. If I had legs, I'd kick you.
- [24:49]
B
Different kind of funny.
- [24:50]
A
Different kind of funny. Watch it last night. And it was really interesting. In an interview she said that you are just a really good creative sounding board. You're a person who reads scripts that she's interested in. Why did you like that part for her?
- [25:08]
B
You know? You know, I just thought that that script was so, so, so specifically a voice that I hadn't heard before. I'd never heard a voice like that, particularly about the subject matter, motherhood. And it's, I've never seen anything like that before. It read like a dark horror movie and it jumped off the page in that way. And I just thought, hey, this is something where you can use, you can use tools you haven't really read everything you have, you can use everything. You put it all together in a way that I hadn't read before. Certain, you know, there have been things that Rose has done where she's elevated material many times that we've read together and have gone, you know, you could really score with this part and do well. I don't know, like, if all the other elements come together, maybe it can be good. But, but oftentimes, you know, that's out of your hands. This one's pretty much Rose, right? She's just in every frame of the movie. And I just thought, I think you're ready. And I think it's a good match. I think you should meet this woman. And they got on like a house on fire. And thank God the whole thing scored because it's an impressive feat. I think.
- [26:27]
A
The play Art is at the Music box theater until December 21st. My guests have been Bobby Cannavale and director Scott Ellis. Thanks for coming in.
- [26:37]
B
Thank you.
- [26:39]
D
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