B (3:23)

Yeah, well, you go back to 1992, you had to obviously do research to find out what it was like to live in New York. In 92, where did you go to get the real experience, the experience of people who'd been through the AIDS epidemic crisis?

C (3:36)

I did a lot of reading nonfiction, a lot of fiction actually. But the most interesting piece of research that I did beyond my like, volunteer process with Sage, where I kind of. Which is definitely the inspiration for Gals in the novel. Gals exists in kind of a different space than Sage and is way more social socialization focused than Sage, which is a lot more advocacy focused. Although Gals does do those things. So after I had some experience with that, I had the idea for a novel about someone who finds himself in this place for the first time and is on the younger end and kind of doesn't feel. Feel young anymore and has to make friends. Because I was in a, I don't know, maybe naive way, I was completely unfamiliar that this place existed, being Sage. And when I was there, I was just so delighted by all of these older queer people, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s. There could have been some 90 year olds that I interacted with who were just so delighted to see each other, so delighted to see me living kind of robust social lives and knowing that there was a place that made that possible for them. And I felt like, oh, I don't. I never think about this. I never really think about what I will need in the future. So that was sort of the first inspiration and maybe the most, I don't know, important moment to me of the writing process came later in one of the final drafts. I Went to the Library of Congress with the intention of looking at the documents of a queer writer who had all of his papers from his life available to access for researchers. And I was denied that request for kind of complicated reasons. But the librarian at the Library of Congress said, what are you working on? And I told him the idea of the novel and what it was about. And he said, you know, we just got a submission or a donation from another queer writer who lived during the AIDS epidemic in the 80s from New York. And he gave us all of his materials. And they're not processed yet, they're not organized, they're not cataloged, but you can look through them if you want to. And I spent a couple days there just sifting through all of this stuff. And what I found so nice about this is the novel is sort of. The novel is sort of small in that it's. A lot of these queer people are just kind of sitting around in their apartments and talking or going to the bar, eating takeout, watching movies on HBO that they got illegally, you know, and to me, I love those sorts of small domestic slices of life, that sort of. That sort of novel. But I felt like, you know, I'm writing about this horrible moment in queer history. It almost feels unfair to make something so small. And in looking at those items from that writer, just the sort of everyday, like, banal things that he did with his friends, partners, lovers, whatever, I realized, like, this is life. This was life then and it's life now. And it almost gave me permission to keep going with it. Yeah, yeah.

B (6:33)

The protagonist of Four Squares is Artie. It's 1992. We meet him. He's a 30 year old man living in the Village. What excites him at that point in his life? What's exciting to him?

C (6:45)

What's exciting to him are his friends. Because in 1982, and this is. I set the novel in 1992 in part because I think of it as this transitional period where people, including Artie and his friends, have been living in New York during these horrible days of the epidemic, watching all of their friends die constantly, just constantly going to funerals. And at this point, you know, treatment is sort of on the horizon. People aren't dying instantly. It's not a death sentence. And for the first time in many years, they're forced to actually contend with their future and they are allowing themselves to see that they have time. And he's, I think, embracing his friendships a lot more for the first time and enjoying just the quiet times that they have together. Without the burden of that constant, you know, trudge through active protest, death, you know. And he's just so happy to have these people in his life. Which is why later on in 2022, he's so lost without them, you know?

B (7:50)

We're gonna ask you to read a little bit of the book, and this is a point when Artie and his friends are at Julius, their favorite bar around the corner, and Adam's Art's friend Adam, tells him the last time he cried at the bar when he found out that he got an inconclusive HIV test. Will you read this passage for us?

C (8:09)

Sure. His friends didn't try to mask their relief, but they did hold their tongues, knowing better than to ask why he didn't tell them sooner. This wasn't about their own feelings. It was about his. One of the toughest things about any friendship is remembering that the mere act of listening is often not only enough but also the totality of what the other person wants. Sometimes there is no follow up question, no complimentary personal anecdote, no soothing cliche that will do more than a silent nod or caress of the hand or pat on the knee. I didn't mean to drag down the mood, adam finally said with a forced grin. I'm really totally fine. I promise. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last time. Well, I'm glad, arty said. But still inconclusive. What a nightmare. I'm sorry. Adam shrugged as the memory of way fell upon all of them like an invisible dusting of snow. Could have been worse. This is the world now they knew. The world he meant. It was the world too many straight people had spent the first decade of the pandemic pretending didn't overlap with their own. Their world wasn't insular or even hidden. It was right there, within spitting distance of everyone else's worlds, so close to each other that they shared an orbit, an atmosphere, an apartment building. The last time Artie emerged from a testing location on 19th Street, a passerby shouted, stay away from me, faggot. Since his childhood as the most effeminate boy in school, the word had struck him like the remnants of a broken glass, non lethal but liable to scar, with emotional reverberations that linger long after cleanup. When a glass breaks in a room, you change the way you walk inside it. You keep your eyes peeled for pieces you miss just in case one finally proves unavoidable and pierces your skin, drawing yet another stream of blood.

B (9:44)

That was Bobby Finger, reading from his novel Four Squares. Four Squares. It's the name of his book, the book that Artie's writing. Let's get all the books right. And it's the four squares are Abington, McCarthy, Fother, Demo, and Washington Square.

C (10:00)

Yes.

B (10:00)

Do they have meaning? Is there anything special about those four squares?

C (10:04)

They are. I mean, in the world of the book, his friends don't all live on each of these squares. But when he was fictionalizing his friends, he wanted to set it in this place that was so special to him. And to me, it was special because I've never lived in the West Village. I love going to the West Village. And part of the fun, the most fun I had researching this book wasn't sort of like rifling through documents and reading books and watching movies and various things like that. Was just sort of wandering those streets and really looking up at the buildings for the first time and taking in those squares for the first time. You know, you walk past them all the time, but you don't read the plaques. So the significance was just. It was Artie's fictional in the world of the book, but also mine when I was looking at things more fully for the first time. And it was special to me.

B (10:58)

When he publishes his book Four Squares, how is it received? How does he want it to be received?

C (11:05)

It's received with a whisper.

B (11:08)

The worst book signing ever.

C (11:09)

The worst book signing ever at a bookstore he loves, which is like another indignity. And a bookseller he finds kind of cute who doesn't give a damn about him, you know, and it's disappointing to him. But ultimately, I really do think that Artie is just relieved to have gotten it out. There's a sting to the lack of success or the lack of any kind of buzz, but really, the fact that his friends came, the fact that he proved to himself and to Abraham that he was able to finish this novel that he'd been working on for so long was really all that mattered. And ultimately, it helps him get his career as he ages.

B (11:45)

When you were thinking about putting out your own book, did you have similar feelings?

C (11:48)

Yes. Yes, I remember. This sounds darker than it is. Oh, no. But I remember my most vivid memory of the day that my first novel came out, which was something I had worked on in various other forms for a long time. But the novel itself kind of came together quickly in a way that I wasn't expecting. Like, I got an agent. She told me I could finish the manuscript. I did. I got an editor, you know, like. And then it was published in Kind of that later stage of the pandemic in 2022. And I was surprised by this, and I was almost speechless. And I remember when I got back from the little book party I had with my friends after the novel came out, I was in my apartment with my husband, and he said to me, sort of jokingly, you can die now. And he. He meant it. He meant it as a joke, but I think he was kind of serious because he was saying, you did this thing that you didn't think you could do, and it's. It's huge. It's huge for you. And I think. And I don't want to compare it to children at all, but it's like, I'm never gonna have kids. And there is something. There's something truly unbelievable about having a book that will be around somewhere, you know, for hopefully the foreseeable future. You know, it's gonna be somewhere on a shelf. Even if it's collecting dusk and the dust and the. You know, the spine isn't cracked. That's really. I still can't believe it.

B (13:07)

My guest is Bobby Finger. We're talking about his new book, Four Squares. By the way, Bobby will be doing a reading in collaboration with the LGBTQ organization Sage at their Edie Windsor center on July 17th at 6:30pm so the book we use back and forth through time, 2022, 1992. We meet Artie in his 60s. He's living in New York. He's ghostwriting for celebrities. It picks up writing gigs here and there. He's trying to like sugary breakfast cereal, try to start an ad for it. Can't do it, whatever. But it's clear that he's grappling with loneliness. Truly, what motivates Art to start thinking about his life, his priorities?

C (13:50)

It's the departure of the two closest people in his life, and they are both connected to Abraham because Abraham is. Was bisexual. So he had a wife. I mean, he had a messy relationship. And that is what he was, a walking red flag. You know, this is why all of his.

B (14:06)

Wasn't he.

C (14:06)

This is why all of his friends were saying, why are you with this guy? He's married to a woman. He's constantly cheating. He's lying to you. He's mean. You know, your first. Your meet. Cute wasn't cute at all, you know, in Julius, and. But still, there was something about this man that sort of. That stuck with him, and he doesn't quite understand it. He just loved him, and he changed the trajectory of his life. And when Abraham dies He leaves behind a daughter and a wife, Vanessa and Hallie. And he. He puts his entire affection for Abraham in. Onto these two women, and he gives them basically the entirety of his life, especially after he no longer has his closest friends for a reason. Again, we won't spoil. And when they announce that they are leaving New York City, he realizes that he's always been. Not only is he going to be alone, maybe he's been alone this whole time. And he has to actually put some work into finding friends, which is something that he hasn't done for decades.

B (15:05)

You just have something so interesting that he just loves him, that Artie just loves Abe. But that doesn't necessarily bring you closeness. It doesn't necessarily bring you. When you're in love with someone, the other person can be doing anything, but you just love them.

C (15:21)

You're right. And that's the thing that his friends don't understand. And like I said, he doesn't really understand it either. He just loves him. And that might be one of the things that's so impossible for him to deal with. He's obsessed with this guy, but he can't even articulate why. He just matters to him. He needs him by his side.

B (15:40)

Early on in 2022, he gets injured his leg, and he ends up on one of those scooters that you have to scoot around on, which is so uncouth. And he goes to gals. This is sort of a brain teaser. But if he hadn't had the leg injury, what might have happened to him?

C (16:02)

I've thought about that before. I don't think. I don't think he would have become a member early. I honestly think he would have given up. I don't think he would have volunteered more than a handful of times. And then he would have said, I really don't know that I belong here yet, you know? And that's why. That's why I injured him, because I. I couldn't. I couldn't believe him as someone who was going to continue going to this place when he is such a deeply uncomfortable and kind of aimless man. You know, I needed him to break his foot. I needed him to put him on a scooter. Yeah, it slowed him down. It slowed him down.

B (16:36)

So at gals, the elders there, they're fun. They poke shade at each other. And these actions are so vivid, the way you describe them. What did you learn from the folks that you met at Sage? What did you learn about aging as a queer person?

C (16:57)

That it's a privilege, that it's really a privilege and that the people who go there really seem to acknowledge it as a privilege. Because I think specifically in the generation that I'm in now and that they're in now, the people who are, you know, taking advantage of Sage's offerings live through stuff I never lived through, you know, and they went through things I can only imagine and try to imagine in the novel. And they just really do, for the most part, in my experience, see every day as a gift. And they feel extremely fortunate and extremely lucky. And they're kind of broad in the book. They're a little fun, they're a little loud, maybe a little louder than a lot of people in real life. But I really wanted them to celebrate life in a way that was almost infectious to Artie because he internalizes it. You know, he's depressed, he's sad, he's traumatized, but. But he hasn't really acknowledged the gift that he's been given, like the gift of a future, the gift of getting older.

B (17:55)

Did you have an elder that you liked writing? Which one?

C (17:59)

I really liked. I loved writing Annabelle. I loved writing Annabelle, the woman with the loud glasses who is mysteriously quite wealthy. I loved writing Gregory. Yeah. And I loved writing Jasmine. There's a character who's sort of. Kind of a sourpuss, you know, a little. But what I liked about her is that she's sort of dour. She's not as excited as the other people, but she's still there. You know, she gets something out of it. She shows up for dinner every day or most days because she likes these people, even if she's not laughing as much as everyone else.

B (18:33)

There's another elder, Sterling Bismarck, who's a former big time actor who Art is going to help write his memoir. If you were to talk about Sterling on who Weekly, what's his status?

C (18:47)

Sterling? I love Sterling. I mean, Sterling is my favorite elder. He doesn't. He doesn't go to gals. He stays in his apartment.

B (18:53)

Those are great scenes.

C (18:54)

I love.

B (18:55)

Those are great scenes.

C (18:56)

I think that's my favorite chapter if I had to pick one. But who is he? He's a former them who sort of become a prestige them and maybe a generational who. Who you'd recognize the mustache. You know, you'd say, why have I seen this? Or why did my parents watch this show when I was growing up? And maybe you'd only hear about him on People or else Weekly when unfortunately he died or got sick. Because that's the sort of headline he is making in his Older age. Yeah.

B (19:24)

My guess is Bobby Finger Four Squares is his second novel. It's out now. Writing a book? This is about you. We'll put the book to the side. When do you find time? Are you a morning writer? Are you a thousand words by the end of the summer writer? What's your schedule? What's your skill?

C (19:43)

I love talking about this because I love talking about this with other writers because everyone is so different. And I'm always shocked by everyone's answers, and everyone's shocked by mine because we can't believe that there are other ways to do this. But I cannot write in the morning.

B (19:55)

You can't?

C (19:55)

I can't. And also my podcast, we record three mornings out of the week. And the mornings, even when on days I'm not recording, I'm working on the show. So for years and years, the mornings have been my who weekly time. And I found that I also can't write at night because I like to cook. I like to. I like dinner. I just like. I have these very.

B (20:16)

I'm narrowing it down now.

C (20:17)

I love. Right. No, fully. We're just. It's an elimination game. What's left? The afternoon. And so I have sort of out of necessity, the afternoon has become the time I can write, and because it's the time that is the most malleable and the most free. And I like writing. I mean, I wrote some of the early chapters of the Old Place, doing Jami Attenberg's Thousand Words of Summer project. And I love daily word counts. But I found what works for me even better, even more is the weekly word count, because I would love to get 1000, 1500, maybe even 2000 words a day. That would be amazing. But. But I love a deadline. I love sort of a mandate. And if you can't reach that, then I feel very depressed. So I sort of get a middle ground by adding the weekly word count. Okay, I'll make it up on this day. If I can make my X thousand words by Sunday, I'm good. So I give myself weekly word counts.

B (21:14)

We're doing the summer reading challenge around here, and we're asking guests who've written books and who are guests if they would. They would participate. And you talked about a few different things. You're thinking about reading your debut novelist, Ways and Means by Daniel Lefferts.

C (21:29)

Yeah, it's a. It's a. It's also set in, like, contemporary New York. It's very. It's a. It's so exciting and plot hungry. There was another category on There that was like books that are going to be adapted into TV or movies and ways and Means, as far as I know, has not gotten that yet. But. Oh, that would be. That would be a great limited series.

B (21:50)

Well, you have on your turn it a TV series or movie. People collide by Isle McElroy. Oh, they were a guest. They were great.

C (21:57)

Yeah.

B (21:58)

That's a great book.

C (21:58)

That's a great book. Yeah.

B (21:59)

Okay. Recommended by a friend. Loved and missed.

C (22:02)

Oh, that. Loved and missed. So this is a. I wanted to. Maybe I shouldn't say this on the air, but that's fine. I wanted to call this novel Old Fruits. They changed it and I respect the opinion. I love the opinion. I love the title Four Squares. It makes so much sense. But one of my favorite things as a reader is the. I don't know if there's a term for it, but you know, when you're the sort of late game final chapter reveal that reframes the title of a novel where you get like added context. You think you know the name, you think you know what it means and then, oh, no, it means so much more than that. Loved and Mist was recommended by a friend just two weeks ago. Loved it. But it has one of the best instances of the title explanation in the final pages and it's kind of unforgettable. Yeah, well.

B (22:43)

Oh, Fruits makes it into split. We'll just say that the guest. My guest has been Bobby Finger. The name of the book is Four Squares. Bobby will be doing a reading in collaboration with the LGBTQ organization Sage at their Edie Windsor center on July 17th at 6:30pm it was really fun to have you in studio.

C (23:00)

Thank you so much. This was great.

B (23:03)

There's more. All of it coming up after the news.

A (23:08)

At rxbar. They believe in simple nutrition without the bs. That's why they said no to artificial ingredients and yes to deliver intentional, transparent nutrition. Try their original 12 gram protein bar, the nut Butter and oat bar, or minis. The proud sponsor of no BS. Use code RXBAR on RXBAR.com for 25% off, subject to full terms and conditions and to change. Valid until September 30, 2025, and may not be combined with other offers. See rxbar.com for full details and limitations.

C (23:38)

NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc. Org to learn more.